Should they add a DPS meter? - [Merged]

[BjorJlen.9674]

   Again, to clarify more simply if this hasn't been referred enough here already in regards to one's own gameplay, knowledge is power. Power to improve your gameplay, power to stay the same, power to just be informed, power to instead make a peanut butter sandwich, etc. ArcDps does not automatically make you a better player (or play the game for you), nor does it alter any in-game files. It just gives you more info on your game play, and yes others too when you team up, allowing you to make choices. The freedom to choose whether you wish to improve your game play, or not. "You still have to do the work to improve, if that is what you wish.

   So using ArcDps is cool in my book. In regards to using it to scope out how other players are doing when teaming, and perhaps kicking them for not meeting the teams and/or "your" standards, well that is totally another topic, not to mention a personal choice as well. But banning ArcDps for just giving players more info is a non starter really (for me at least), because that imho is a silly argument. Cause like I said, knowledge is power... to improve, or not... it's your choice. However, after reading some of the replies here, I'm also thinking we need a bit of related humor to at least lighten things up here, not to mention put this into perspective (we can be a silly species that gets hung up on things after all 😁).

Enjoy...

At this point, damage meter would be nice...

If DPS meter bad then why hot?

[kharmin.7683]

I think the arguments for banning DPS meters is because they show results of any player rather than just your own results to yourself.  If they didn't make the information public, then it certainly could be a useful learning tool for many who would want that kind of information.  It's this publicly available data which many believe leads to the gate-keeping and presumed toxicity in certain game modes.

[Dibit.6259]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I think the arguments for banning DPS meters is because they show results of any player rather than just your own results to yourself.  If they didn't make the information public, then it certainly could be a useful learning tool for many who would want that kind of information.  It's this publicly available data which many believe leads to the gate-keeping and presumed toxicity in certain game modes.

Some people ask how they're doing or ask for dps reports to see where they went wrong. The tool can do just as much good as it can do bad. The main issue is toxic people not the add on itself.

 

Edit: toxicity exists on both sides

Edited December 22, 2023 by Dibit.6259
Added more

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:37 AM, Quirin.1076 said:

I do wish there was a test golem in WvW like the raid area so I could test damage there, but sadly there is not.

There are plenty more places those could be added tbh.

[kharmin.7683]

32 minutes ago, Dibit.6259 said:

Some people ask how they're doing or ask for dps reports to see where they went wrong. The tool can do just as much good as it can do bad. The main issue is toxic people not the add on itself.

 

Edit: toxicity exists on both sides

I don't necessarily disagree.  I never use one because I'm not involved in content that would need be to be top of form ... I'm too darn casual  🙂   My point was to echo what others have thought/posted in the many, many threads on this topic.  The biggest argument I recall reading that was against meters was that the data was public.  Those detractors had no issue with the DPS data remaining private.

[Bladestrom.6425]

54 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I don't necessarily disagree.  I never use one because I'm not involved in content that would need be to be top of form ... I'm too darn casual  🙂   My point was to echo what others have thought/posted in the many, many threads on this topic.  The biggest argument I recall reading that was against meters was that the data was public.  Those detractors had no issue with the DPS data remaining private.

95% of the game is casual, and the game is tailored for it 🙂 . The dps meter debate has been done to death,   If the casual player can clear 98% of content without using meters then its not needed in game.  Raiders gameplay is focused on button spamming rotations (I do not mean that in a bad way) so meters becomes important for them to objectively evaluate spell rotation efficiency and dps.  The negative side of meters is well documented out-with GW2 and almost certainly why most if not all AAA mmorpg shy away from including meters in game.

[Dark Red Killian.3946]

I think they should at least add a meter so you can see your own performance. In groups, it can be nice to see the groups performance. I always had no problems using arc, but with the quarterly updates it’s always breaking so I’ve gotten lazy and haven’t been using it. This is definately a qol update. Anet should also implement some kind of training so people understand how to gear themselves for how they want to play. I think that’s one big thing missing for new players is how do they gear for damage, or how do they gear to heal, or provide boons? Have an npc that gives you “rare” stat changing sets of armor so you can experiment and see how each one works. It’s rare so it’s not ideal for end game play, but it lets you see how the stats work. It could also give players a preview of how legendary armor is useful especially if you want the max armor qol.

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I think the arguments for banning DPS meters is because they show results of any player rather than just your own results to yourself.  If they didn't make the information public, then it certainly could be a useful learning tool for many who would want that kind of information.  It's this publicly available data which many believe leads to the gate-keeping and presumed toxicity in certain game modes.

Then you see your own dps and have no context about where you stand within the group. Seeing only yours gives you no point of reference whether it's good, bad or right about k for any given encounter. People who want to "gatekeep" or blame will do that anyways, except they'll do it by more subjective factors of their own choice. At least dps meters are objective.

[Teknomancer.4895]

46 minutes ago, Dark Red Killian.3946 said:

with the quarterly updates it’s always breaking so I’ve gotten lazy and haven’t been using it

Very much this. I got tired of dealing with that so just removed it, haven't put it back. At least something native might be slightly less likely to do that.

[KindredPhoenyx.8976]

The topic of DPS meters is always a double edge sword.

It can either be used for improvement (both for yourself and others) or a tool to be an absolute hoot to people about them underperforming. 

I come from WoW, I have seen the extremes of "ur number no big reee", and not having it as a "forced" thing in GW2 is why I like this game. I don't need some nutball telling me I'm not doing the parsing damage of (insert class here) on a meta despite knowing I'm well acquainted with my class and performing perfectly fine (at least, by my standards).

The flipside: I also am in a guild of folks who look at the numbers for T4 fracts and raids and they actively help their members who are obviously underperforming and that's great to see.

I feel the golem serves our needs just fine though really. As a generalised tool to help gain an overall understanding of where you stand performance wise. This is also just a me thing but I also think DPS meters can be distracting esp when you're worrying about performance all the time and coming up slightly short can be anxiety inducing. It's no longer fun when it's stressful.

 

TL;DR: DPS meters are helpful but it has psychological effects on people that can make it a bad thing. Golem is just fine imo.

Edited December 23, 2023 by KindredPhoenyx.8976

[Dibit.6259]

5 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I don't necessarily disagree.  I never use one because I'm not involved in content that would need be to be top of form ... I'm too darn casual  🙂   My point was to echo what others have thought/posted in the many, many threads on this topic.  The biggest argument I recall reading that was against meters was that the data was public.  Those detractors had no issue with the DPS data remaining private.

Apologies this was not meant to be a jab or anything was just adding some insight of how seeing other's performance can be also used for good, and as Sobx mentioned people compare their performance to others to assess how they are doing etc.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Dibit.6259 said:

Apologies this was not meant to be a jab or anything was just adding some insight of how seeing other's performance can be also used for good, and as Sobx mentioned people compare their performance to others to assess how they are doing etc.

No apology necessary.  I took your response as intended.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

I'd actually prefer something official.  I don't like the logs clogging my PC and I'd rather not show up in other logs, but I'd still like to see if I'm actually performing well.
How would this be implemented?
An expansion to the combat log.
Make it only reflect damage dealt to specific mobs of a specific rank or higher, customizable by the player.
This way if you want it to be every mob and go crazy about it, you can.
If you want it to simply be champions or higher, you can have that too.
Basically, it'd read out as
Target: [Name]
Overall DPS: [How much DPS you've done to target since it  was damaged]
5 Second DPS: [How much DPS you've done in the past 5 seconds to target]
Total Damage: [Your total damage to target]
Time Elapsed: [Time in combat with target]

Though, I think ANet would be able to just get away with the total damage and time elapsed vs target because people could just do the rest of the maths on their own.
And this could be flipped to show healing on target and aggregate it to show subsquad/party only.
For boons, that'd just require ANet to make the UI for boons more consistent so it's easy to see when someone has a specific boon or not.

[Ashen.2907]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:29 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

 People who want to "gatekeep" or blame will do that anyways, except they'll do it by more subjective factors of their own choice. At least dps meters are objective.

This is exactly what happened before dps meters. Entire classes were excluded from many groups because people assumed they couldnt perform in more difficult content. Then dps meters proved that they were not only viable, but top tier in many cases. Player access to instanced content was greatly expanded with the advent of meters.

[Ashantara.8731]

2 hours ago, Epsilon Indi.2031 said:

I'd actually prefer something official.  I don't like the logs clogging my PC

You can deactivate them. I never save any logs.

[Widebody.5071]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:29 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

Then you see your own dps and have no context about where you stand within the group. Seeing only yours gives you no point of reference whether it's good, bad or right about k for any given encounter. People who want to "gatekeep" or blame will do that anyways, except they'll do it by more subjective factors of their own choice. At least dps meters are objective.

Trade notes.

[Cuks.8241]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:56 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

I don't necessarily disagree.  I never use one because I'm not involved in content that would need be to be top of form ... I'm too darn casual  🙂   My point was to echo what others have thought/posted in the many, many threads on this topic.  The biggest argument I recall reading that was against meters was that the data was public.  Those detractors had no issue with the DPS data remaining private.

That might be even better argument for in game dps meter. Because right now it exists and Anet and players don't have much control over it. If Anet incorporated it in the game, they could give players more information about it. For example it could be a squad feature and players could see in LFG and squad UI if the DPS meter is enabled or not and decide if they want to join such squad or not.

The thing is DPS meter is only really useful when you can compare data to other players. Golem numbers are one thing but direct comparison to other players in a real encounter is much better. Golem numbers are actually misleading to a lot of less informed players as they are generated by a handful of best players in perfect conditions. You don't see such numbers in live encounters in pug groups, not even close. Players could get more realistic data and expectations if it would be available in game for everyone, everywhere.

I played a game which went a step further and even told you some statistic after a fight. For example "your dps was better than 80% of players completing this encounter" or "you died 1 time, better than 90% of players, average players dies 3 times". It was great info because it put you in the perspective of whole player base and never saw any negative info about it. 

[Nash.2681]

Would love to have an official dps meter and not having to fidle around with crashes and issues every other update. It doesn't need to have all the features ARC does (dps table, boon table and the option to save logs would be enough for me), but being able to officially monitor our own and squads performance would be beneficial in the long run imo. Yes, those tools can be abused and people can be jerks. But that's already the case, always has been and always will be, no matter what. And cirticism based on numbers is still better then the "good old days" of "CoF p1, no necros, no rangers!!!". On the other hand, in my experience there are oh so many people that would be open for change and improvement, if only they knew how low they'd actually perform. But as long as they just flow with the masses and get carried, their mindset often seems to be "hey, we did it, so apparently I didn't do so bad", despite them often being hard carried by a few. Unfortunatly currently the only way for them to know is either using a 3rd party tool (which is understandable if someone is scared to use) or by getting told by others (which always has the potential for conflicts and drama). For those that absolutly don't want to see their own or others performance, they can still add an "always off" option. Others in their party/squad could still see them, but that wouldn't be a change to the current state anyway.