Should they add a DPS meter? - [Merged]

[sewenewes.4176]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"ewenness.6482" said:Both sides are justified in their displeasure but the only way this can be solved is by rehauling, to a certain degree even gutting, the gearing and talent system so that all options will result in similar performance. The very skilled will still be rewarded by better performance but instead of performing 150% better, they will perform lets say only 20% better. The unskilled will stop being such a massive drag (numerically) in group content.10/10 armchair game dev talk there.But...People who do not wish to team with low performers do not care if that difference is 20% or 80%.They simply do not want to team with low-effort players.Buffing low performers to give them some form of artificial viability will not make them more accepted by high performers. It will simply change the numerical bar by which a player is considered "dead weight".Some people want to clear content as fast as possible, (not just clear it) that is what is fun for them.A low performer is a barrier to that.Your post is indicative of the myopic rhetoric pushed by low-effort players that want a carry and cloak their jealousy over not accessing aspirational content with consumerist outrage.They think that if the community won't give them the carry that Arenanet should.... and you are buying it hook, line and sinker.

Being a little hostile there. This bit in particular.

@mindcircus.1506 said:Your post is indicative of the myopic rhetoric pushed by low-effort players that want a carry and cloak their jealousy over not accessing aspirational content with consumerist outrage.

I've progression raided in WoW from classic till the end of Draenor. Nice try with the ad hominem though.

You know why Blizzard ended up iterating on the talent trees and abilities over and over till they came to barely resemble their former selves from the classic days? Because it was not merely unbalanced but extremely so. Classes that had only one viable specialization, specializations that had only one viable talent point distribution, one button rotations, buff bots, infinitely chained crowd control, and massive MASSIVE differences in performance between people depending whether they fell into the noob trap of making their own builds instead of just copying what was on the Elitist Jerks website. I still remember the boredom of constantly farming that damn mace from the midget dungeom that made playing feral druid actually viable.

Shoring up weaker performers won't make them be welcomed in highly skilled organized groups if they lack the ability to communicate and to perform the mechanics (and that's completely fair and jusitifed) but what it will do is make open world content and pick-up-groups more enjoyable for everyone involved. We're not going to get the ability to create private world maps for ourselves and if you don't have enough skilled friends or guildies online at a time you want to do more difficult group meta events, strikes, or fractals then you have to rely on pick-up-groups. You can of course sit around and not accept anyone that can't link 250 LI minimum but depending on the time of the day and the region you are playing, you will sit there for a long time.

Currently Guild Wars 2 is suffering from having "too much freedom" as contradictive as that sounds. A year ago when I got back into this game even I made the mistake of thinking I can make my own build work by doing the math and getting shaman armour with magi trinkets and then roleplaying as a healer with my spirits and staff. In reality, my heals were a joke outside of celestial alignment and my mangy pet did more damage than me. I talk to so many players falling into the same kind of noob traps. They usually have good reflexes, dodge things, watch out for hostile and benefical effects on the floor, the ones who played MMOs before tend to understand how CC works, the ones new to the genre struggle with that, but they all make the mistake of not choosing the right equipment stat combinations and the right traits and the right weapons because the game does nothing to guide them towards what is and isn't efficient.

Also, I'm not saying we should just give "bad" players some sort of health and damage buff like determination stacks in WoW. Instead, noob trap armour combinations should either be scrapped or hidden behind high level crafting skills. Similarly, talents and weapon skills should be changed a bit. Perhaps make each specialization line focus on improving just one particular aspect of the class (like how the elite specializations already do) with some drawbacks and greatly enhance a stat and two weapons that are meant to be a staple of that aspect. Instead of having everything scattered all over the place. They did try this but then sort of gave up halfway through.

That way players would naturally be guided (you could say forced) towards choices that complement each other. They will still not measure up to the top performers but many will stop underperforming so badly that the performance difference is as staggering as it is now.

[uberkingkong.8041]

They already have the feature, the test dummy does it. Just slap it on the UI.Nobody gonna make you pay $$$ just to see text.Unlimited pickaxe, too many preset traits and gear settings, that stuff aint text, unrelated when it comes to comparing it to DPS text and $$$

[ruaach.1549]

I might be the odd one out here, but I have had a chat with people who make use of ArcDps + healing and boon tables for uptime. 

While this does let one strive towards improving, it isn't fun to kick players from a new or learning group due to a lack of DPS or mechanics that the player wasn't aware of. It is doing exactly what it is doing in other MMOs, it is causing exclusivity for content for a certain type of player that makes use of the "correct" weapons and gear. As a game that moved away from the so-called 'holy trinity' of healer's tanks and DPS roles, the allowance of allowing DPS meters, etc, blows my mind. 

I love this game because it is different in many aspects than other MMO's, but now to try to encourage elitism through metrics is insane to me, especially due to the following conditions: 

- No gear level/score that allows others to see character power level in relativity to what is "required" for the end game, fractals, raids, strikes, PVP and WvW. 
- Not having an "activity" score induces frustration with people running DPS meters, etc., and they may be fresh to a certain aspect of the game. (like a M+ rating in WoW).
- If you allow for meters such as these (which you were very firm against in the past), then make the required changes so that people can find people of equal skill level and gear in LFG. 
- Also provide players the ability to inspect other players and their gear to fit in with the search for specific people.

I understand that in the ArcDPS meter description, it says that you shouldn't use it to be a kitten to people, but that is, unfortunately, an inevitability when introducing meters like these. Verbally isn't the only way to be a proverbial kitten to someone (kicking them out, etc.) It inherently takes away from the game's identity as a unique MMO and lazily accepts that people want these types of add-ons. Without developing around it to make it feasible. 

Ultimately, it leads to toxicity, elitism, and new players; yes, there are new players or people who haven't done certain activities, having to spend more time on Google and youtube just to be able to participate on a low level, which is something GW was never known for. You could build what you felt like and enjoyed, but now it feels like I need multiple sets for the different content, or it is "not good enough." 

Please either flesh out third party addons and become like other MMO's, or disallow third-party tools again if you want the game to be played and enjoyed by anyone and allow people to play with the weapons skills that they like to play with, with the stats that they enjoy the most, without the risk of being excluded from content, in an otherwise casual MMO. 

 

[Jedrik.3109]

Everything you just described would happen with or without arc. If you are being disparaging in a pug group it has nothing to do if you have addons running. Also most raiders can deduct if you are doing mechanics without arc which gives us a better understanding if you are new to the encounter or new to your class.

[Quirin.1076]

I choose not to use any addon due to the games TOS.  Yes there is a forum where one dev talks about using a DPS meter and not once in that post does he refer to the one that people use.  This is also the same forum that people lean on as to why the DPS meter is allowed.

I ran in a group the other day a player skipped all the mechanics and wanted to be healed through everything so that they could sit on the boss, that is not how mechanics work.  They left the run right after the fight due to saying people had low DPS, I suspect because people were not standing in fire and avoiding AOE damage. 

I personally consider ArcDPS gives people an advantage over those not using it, so I choose not to use it.  I simply practice my rotations on the practice golem in the Raid area.  I keep getting invited to Raids and apparently I am doing a lot of damage because the raid leader will say that was a fast run, but that is the only feedback I will get from them.  People are also surprised on my view because of how I practice, but for me the practice is doing that without something showing me consistently.  I do wish there was a test golem in WvW like the raid area so I could test damage there, but sadly there is not.

Some are toxic. Some are cool. It is just something you will run into in any game.

[WRay.2391]

Well, in my experience you should be fair about your skill or experience and this will avoid a lot of frustration from both sides.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

unfortunately this game has a big difference compared to other games, as one player can be 5-10x more effective than another player. to put this more directly, a single good player can be equal to an entire raid squad of bad players, and can literally solo content that that would likely wipe that squad.

 

sometimes its even worse, as i've seen some players doing 1k dps in my groups while another is doing 35k. that's 35 times the damage, and often players are doing even less damage than the full support healers (built with harrier's gear or similar) on damage builds, which shows a.. significant lack of effort.

 

i'm not saying that such players aren't welcome in the game or shouldn't join groups, i'm just pointing out simple numbers.

 

these are far higher margins than is common in mmos, where even double damage is usually considered "excessive", and that's why arcdps is needed. you simply can't go into encounters with literally a fraction of your group strength and then expect to clear it. i know it sucks, but its just how arenanet designed the game, and despite thousands of requests for them to pull back the damage desparity, the gap only seems to widen further with time.

 

personally i don't call out players for having low damage, though i will call them out for not doing mechanics. that said, we still have to meet the dps checks and if we can't manage to do that, then lower damage players will simply have to get better. its just how the game works.

Edited December 19, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Leger.3724]

You're going to get a lot of mediocre pubstars coming to your post thinking they're relevant at video games because they can meet a DPS number after memorizing a rotation of a specific class.

The fact this game needs DPS and boon meters to know if someone is doing their job or not is bad game design, point blank and it's why this game has the smallest end game pve community out of any MMO worth mentioning including ones with smaller playerbases like New World.

And this should be the focus of a Guild Wars 3 if it's ever in development. A combat system that is intuitive and feels rewarding to players and not one designed with mediocre grindy pubstars who can't hack it in other MMOs or pvp games but feel really good about memorizing gimmicks and rotations in this game. An MMO is fun because other people play it. And when you make a combat system that gives terrible feedback filled with gimmicky rotations... you shouldn't be surprised when most people don't bother with your game.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Leger.3724

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

9 minutes ago, Quirin.1076 said:

I do wish there was a test golem in WvW like the raid area so I could test damage there, but sadly there is not.

There is if you have Armastice Bastion, it doesn't tell you your DPS but you can at least kill veteran and champion golems with WvW skill balance.

[Dibit.6259]

Though I don't agree with kicking people from learning groups etc you also need to understand that there are two sides to this here. Some end game content is challenging and requires certain amount of damage/preformance and level of understanding of mechanics to succeed.

Archdps is a great tool for self improvement (as you stated before) but also for showing who is pulling their weight. As much as should be inclusive there are some limits to this. If someone is doing so little damage and/or not doing the mechanics correctly to the point they grief the 9 or so players and possibly cause failures you think this is fair? With arch you can then pinpoint who is causing grief and try to solve that problem, though straight up kicking may not be the answer.

It's not hard to look up builds or even ask for help from other players via guilds or the forums. Of course its up to the person to decide if they want to do this but then they should also expect that they might not be up to the standards required for the content they want to do. It's also down to the group leader to decide whether they say something to that person and/or kick.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Dibit.6259
Typos

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, ruaach.1549 said:

it is causing exclusivity

No. It is increasing access. Without a dps meter to prove viability of a much wider variety of builds instanced content was much more narrowly gated.

[Passerbye.6291]

2 hours ago, ruaach.1549 said:

I might be the odd one out here, but I have had a chat with people who make use of ArcDps + healing and boon tables for uptime. 

While this does let one strive towards improving, it isn't fun to kick players from a new or learning group due to a lack of DPS or mechanics that the player wasn't aware of. It is doing exactly what it is doing in other MMOs, it is causing exclusivity for content for a certain type of player that makes use of the "correct" weapons and gear. As a game that moved away from the so-called 'holy trinity' of healer's tanks and DPS roles, the allowance of allowing DPS meters, etc, blows my mind. 

I love this game because it is different in many aspects than other MMO's, but now to try to encourage elitism through metrics is insane to me, especially due to the following conditions: 

- No gear level/score that allows others to see character power level in relativity to what is "required" for the end game, fractals, raids, strikes, PVP and WvW. 
- Not having an "activity" score induces frustration with people running DPS meters, etc., and they may be fresh to a certain aspect of the game. (like a M+ rating in WoW).
- If you allow for meters such as these (which you were very firm against in the past), then make the required changes so that people can find people of equal skill level and gear in LFG. 
- Also provide players the ability to inspect other players and their gear to fit in with the search for specific people.

I understand that in the ArcDPS meter description, it says that you shouldn't use it to be a kitten to people, but that is, unfortunately, an inevitability when introducing meters like these. Verbally isn't the only way to be a proverbial kitten to someone (kicking them out, etc.) It inherently takes away from the game's identity as a unique MMO and lazily accepts that people want these types of add-ons. Without developing around it to make it feasible. 

Ultimately, it leads to toxicity, elitism, and new players; yes, there are new players or people who haven't done certain activities, having to spend more time on Google and youtube just to be able to participate on a low level, which is something GW was never known for. You could build what you felt like and enjoyed, but now it feels like I need multiple sets for the different content, or it is "not good enough." 

Please either flesh out third party addons and become like other MMO's, or disallow third-party tools again if you want the game to be played and enjoyed by anyone and allow people to play with the weapons skills that they like to play with, with the stats that they enjoy the most, without the risk of being excluded from content, in an otherwise casual MMO. 

 

Not having DPS meters would only poorly veil who is performing below expectations. Expecting people to perform at a certain level is not elitism, nor toxic. We have builds in this game capable of doing well above 20k dps with absolutely 0 input. This being the case, if I see someone do 5k dps on a stationary boss with no phases, I'm asking them what seems to be the problem and depending on the run I'm doing, ie. whether it is a training or experienced run, that person is potentially getting kicked. People need to get this idea that anyone getting kicked out of a group is somehow toxicity. When someone who is clearly ill equipped to handle a specific content joins said content in the hopes of leeching, it is called griefing. 
Before people come up with extreme examples of 95%+ bench requirements on X or Y run, keep in mind that everyone is free to run their squads how they wish. Noone owes you a spot in their squad. If you meet the requirements of any given group, you join them, if not, you either look for another one or make your own.

I've never once required people to do super high damage, in fact I often play super easy builds myself and have had great success with them, and yet, whenever I tell people the kind of damage they can do with very low effort, I get considered an elitist. I'm sorry but there are certain things that are unacceptable to me when we're doing group content. Just yesterday we had a quick herald doing 30-50% quickness uptime. Now, let me explain it further for those of you who never played herald. You can literally be naked and have a level 1 white weapon in your hand and you can still sustain 100% quickness by pressing 1 button every 60 seconds on herald. There is absolutely no excuse for generating 30% quickness on herald (it wasn't a stacking issue either btw as this was the uptime on the person themself).

I'll never understand some of this game's playerbase's aversion to putting in effort. We actually expect healers to do their job, as it is quite noticeable even without a DPS meter when they don't, but somehow when someone joins a group and says "hi dps" our expectations need to be anywhere between 0 and 45k. If you join a group content, I fully expect you to do your best to contribute. I do understand that people's best may vary, but your best cannot be what can be achieved with 0 input. If someone makes such claims, they are a griefer.

Another note on removing arcdps, before arcdps was a thing, from what I hear, people were looking at achievement points for running dungeon groups. No matter what you attempt to do, people will always use certain criteria to filter people out to have a higher statistical chance of succeeding or having a smoother run. Even if you were to literally remove every method of seeing what someone has achieved. People could always take you to a champion bounty and see how fast you kill it to determine your dps. Stop trying to fight against the tools for determining DPS, solve the underlying issue of entitled people thinking they can do 2k dps, 30% boon uptime and still feel owed a spot in squads.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[Parasite.5389]

2 hours ago, ruaach.1549 said:

Please either flesh out third party addons and become like other MMO's, or disallow third-party tools

so it's either allow all addons like WoW, which will ultimately destroy all balance and allow rampant cheating and exploits; or ban all addons like XiV where you can get a GM warning for even mentioning a DPS meter

not a lot of options there chief

[Leger.3724]

20 minutes ago, Dibit.6259 said:

It's not hard to look up builds or even ask for help from other players via guilds or the forums. Of course its up to the person to decide if they want to do this but then they should also expect that they might not be up to the standards required for the content they want to do. It's also down to the group leader to decide whether they say something to that person and/or kick.

Of course it's not hard. You know what it is? Boring. Tedious. People don't like wasting time. They play games to have fun. This is a common theme in MMO communities. Oh people are just lazy. No. The game is boring and throws up artificial barriers at players. The fact you or me or anyone else overcame those barriers isn't some great achievement. People want to play the game. They don't want to install third party plugins, look up a build online and memorize a fairly sizeable rotation.... and then start to learn the raid or strike mechanics while managing the plugins and keeping up their memorized button order for the DPS/heals/alac/quick/whatever role they are.

Arena Net wants players and it wants them engaged and playing the content. And it's desperately trying to promote end game content which is why it went from raids down to easier strikes to harder strikes in EOD. And then immediately back to easier strikes in SOTO after what I'm assuming was catastrophic strikes data out of EOD. I mean they even dropped the strike requirement for the Turtle. Given what I've seen out of SOTO I'm not expecting improvement.

So people on the forums can keep screaming their version of the earth is flat with "players are lazy". That's not bringing anyone to play the game. And Arena Net should take a hard look around at what games people are playing, why they are playing them so when/if they make a Guild Wars 3 they can adjust for the many mistakes they made going from Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars 2 and hopefully bring back a vibrant communities to end game pve and pvp because they simply do not exist in Guild Wars 2 today.

[Passerbye.6291]

8 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

People don't like wasting time.

Indeed, which is why if you do kitten poor damage, you are wasting the squad's time and getting yeeted.

8 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

Oh people are just lazy. No. The game is boring and throws up artificial barriers at players.

I'm having fun so far, if I stop having fun, I'll look for another game, I don't see much point in not enjoying myself and yet remaining.

8 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

They don't want to install third party plugins, look up a build online and memorize a fairly sizeable rotation.... and then start to learn the raid or strike mechanics while managing the plugins and keeping up their memorized button order for the DPS/heals/alac/quick/whatever role they are.

One can reasonably come up with a decent rotation, or a simple priority of skill use by simply reading tooltip facts in this game. The only part that would feel arbitrary is not knowing how much damage power or condi adds to any given ability, which one would then need to extrapolate by equipping/unequipping gear with power/condi bonuses and seeing how they reflect on tooltips.

8 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

So people on the forums can keep screaming their version of the earth is flat with "players are lazy". That's not bringing anyone to play the game. And Arena Net should take a hard look around at what games people are playing, why they are playing them so when/if they make a Guild Wars 3 they can adjust for the many mistakes they made going from Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars 2 and hopefully bring back a vibrant communities to end game pve and pvp because they simply do not exist in Guild Wars 2 today.

Don't WoW and FF14 have some of, if not the, highest playerbases right now? Funny that seeing how WoW is huge on performance metrics, as well as difficult endgame content, as is FF14 with arguably more difficult endgame content available than GW2.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[BatelGeuce.3591]

2 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

Of course it's not hard. You know what it is? Boring. Tedious. People don't like wasting time. They play games to have fun.

Just like I don't like wasting my time with people who refuse to carry their own weight through stuff. Carrying 6 sorry-kitten because they can't stack properly and have no idea how boneskinner works even though it was clearly stated in the LFG that you are looking for experienced people truly is the fun I signed up for here.

But yeah I agree. The community of this game has changed. People can't be arsed to put any effort into anything and just expect everything to be a walk in a park.

[Leger.3724]

Just now, BatelGeuce.3591 said:

Just like I don't like wasting my time with people who refuse to carry their own weight through stuff. Carrying 6 sorry-kitten because they can't stack properly and have no idea how boneskinner works even though it was clearly stated in the LFG that you are looking for experienced people truly is the fun I signed up for here.

But yeah I agree. The community of this game has changed. People can't be arsed to put any effort into anything and just expect everything to be a walk in a park.

okay that's fine - Arena Net, no more strikes. Stop wasting my money on content this guy wants.

[Neferpitouh.4356]

I do full CM raids + strikes every week (-ht) and all CM fractals everyday. I don't use arcdps. I know exactly how much damage I do, if my squad/party dps/cc is acceptable or not, if I drop any boons or not (quickness, alacrity, might) without any help from addons.

It helps not tilting over a overly bad performing spesific guy, instead I'll just leave myself if the group is doing bad or If it is carriable even with extra luggage, I'll just carry. It is more chill.

My point is if I wanted to be toxic towards bad players I can already do it without arcdps.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

The fact this game needs DPS and boon meters to know if someone is doing their job or not is bad game design, point blank and it's why this game has the smallest end game pve community out of any MMO worth mentioning including ones with smaller playerbases like New World.

This whole point kinda falls apart when you realize that WoW, which is pretty much the biggest MMO out there with Raid focus also has a community heavily relying on DPS meters.

GW2 never started with massive endgame, GW2 is not designed for you to blitz through levels then just do dungeons, raids and whatever, because that's the endgame content. 

[Ashantara.8731]

The biggest issue I have with ArcDPS is what it does in the hands of players who can't think logically to take in the bigger picture of a fight. For instance, today, I was heal-firebranding in CO CM. My Quickness uptime is usually 98%, but as you know, there are many spread mechanics in this Strike -- so it is impossible for everyone to constantly have said Quickness uptime throughout the whole mission apart from the moments where the group stacks.

Now, I got scolded for supposedly not having a proper Quickness uptime and was even asked if I wanted to swap to a DPS build instead. 😂 The same people complaining were the ones dying several times to simple mechanics, such as the red pizza, so that we had to restart four (!) times. 🤦‍♀️

Ergo, it really depends on the player whether ArcDPS is a useful tool or a burden to the group. I, for one, use it mainly to monitor my own boon uptime and DPS. I am not an "elite" player, but the tool shows me that I am at least "good enough" for most CM content. 😉

Edited December 19, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Leger.3724]

Just now, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

This whole point kinda falls apart when you realize that WoW, which is pretty much the biggest MMO out there with Raid focus also has a community heavily relying on DPS meters.

GW2 never started with massive endgame, GW2 is not designed for you to blitz through levels then just do dungeons, raids and whatever, because that's the endgame content. 

World of Warcraft continues to lose players and just launched Old School World of Warcraft which is a ripoff of Old School Runescape and simplifies World of Warcraft and brings it back to a familiar, simpler game-state so people who used to play might consider returning. 

The point doesn't fall apart at all. You're talking about a game in an unhealthy state to the point where the developers have focused on everything but raids to bring back people who left.

Runescape started this trend by launching Old School. And what does it say about the state of MMOs and end game pve in MMOs that the biggest on on the block - World of Warcraft is now doing the same?

 

[Cuks.8241]

Arcdps gives you objective info. Without it its all subjective.

You can use any build or gear you want and if Arc says your doing what is required youre good. Without Arc players will evaluate you  based on info they pull out of their kitten.

So if anything Arc helps against unfounded toxicity.

I dont run Arc though. I might do it once in a while when I want to see how my build perfoms in certain fight and to do a sanity chech but generally no.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

6 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

The point doesn't fall apart at all. You're talking about a game in an unhealthy state to the point where the developers have focused on everything but raids to bring back people who left.

If your point is that Arc is the reason why GW2 doesn't have a big end game scene and not Anet's direction from the start on not going down WoW's path then it does fall apart, because WoW wouldn't be anywhere near if DPS meters did what you're implying.

[Ashen.2907]

I honestly didnt realize that the old school/classic WoW movement didnt include instanced content.

[BjorJlen.9674]

   Ya know OP, this all comes down to communication and respect I feel. While I myself mostly play PvE for fun (though I did just get my Warclaw! Whoot! 😁), I am also a very big team player who will back the team I am on as best I can. And if I am playing a character who I know wouldn't bring the best to the team, then I will happily switch to something more suited to the team dynamics if possible. This is why communication is so important. Imo, I feel it's always best to tell any prospective team if you are "new" to what the team will be doing, building a character you'd like to play, or just plain new to the game itself.
   Because quite frankly, ArcDps or not, when on a team it is always your responsibility to not mess up the team with whatever goal they want to achieve, even if it's totally unintentional. Fun is fun, and that is really the name of the game here. But, when on any team, it's also about supporting the team as best you can. And that means respect and communication (on both sides I might add). I know I am not the best player there is (far from it lol), nor can I build or even play the best builds around. But despite wanting to have fun with a awesome team, if I am only doing 2k damage, while most others are doing FAR more than me, I will not be upset at all if I am asked to leave (though being blindly kicked without any explanation will hurt, and is so not respectful).
   So have fun, build the best most fun builds you can make, use ArcDps (it IS a good tool after all), ask to be on many teams if that's your thing, and communicate & support the team as best you can as well. Play how you want to play (respectfully though), but always try to remember that others will do the same. And if "my" square peg of a character doesn't quite fit into a round peg of a team, that's also ok too. Because it is just a game and there are always other teams to play with when it is all said and done. 😉