There a reason that ES weapons are still restricted to ES? - [Merged]

[robertthebard.8150]

@Taril.8619 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:It's not a good idea, but it's not a good idea because the whole point of e specs is a sense of progression after the level cap. We don't have a gear treadmill. Once one has crafted their endgame equipment, they're done with that. So, instead of giving us a real grind, they did this. Why "undo" it by moving the spec down to core, instead of endgame?

They could still put the weapon inside the E-Spec. Heck they could even make the fully unlocked weapon usage be tied to completely obtaining all traits within the E-Spec (So you get access to the weapon with the E-Spec upon spending the 30 points to obtain the E-Spec, but won't get to use the weapon in Core/other E-Specs until you've spent the 250 points to get the entire E-Spec)

Thus, E-Spec weapons are still a part of "End-game" (Which, more and more feels like "The beginning of the game" with so much stuff locked behind being level 80) and are still locked behind purchasing the relevant expansion to access said E-Spec (So F2P players aren't able to run around with E-Spec weapons)

Hope I did this right...

That's what end game is though. I've played MMOs that would kill to get the end game we get here. Yeah, we can still chew it up and spit it out pretty fast once it's released, but a new player that comes in and gets all the post release content will be busy for a while, and they'll be busy for a while post level cap. I'm not even all that hardcore, but I'm already spending HPs on DE on my DD, because I've got nothing left to spend them on, so I can imagine that there are others that have already maxed out all their e specs. Moving availability to core won't speed the "I've got nothing to work towards, may as well take a break" overmuch, but it will accelerate it. I'm not sure at what level I started having to bank HP because my Core was maxed out, I'm going to guess mid 70s, but I had something to look forward to in so far as those HP were concerned, with whatever e spec I'm going into, and figuring out how it works, and what I'm going to need for the final build.

Yeah, there's going to be lots of story to work toward, but for the players that aren't all that interested in it, or that have done it once, and don't want to do it again, there's nothing really left for them if they're sitting on their final build before they even finish the core story line, assuming, of course, they ever would.

The system works the way it is now, of course, because the game was already sitting at cap before there was any LS or expansions, but even if it were designed this way at launch, I think it would still be a good idea, especially w/out a gear treadmill to fill people's time towards progression.

[Fractured.3928]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:It's not a good idea, but it's not a good idea because the whole point of e specs is a sense of progression after the level cap. We don't have a gear treadmill. Once one has crafted their endgame equipment, they're done with that. So, instead of giving us a real grind, they did this. Why "undo" it by moving the spec down to core, instead of endgame?

They could still put the weapon inside the E-Spec. Heck they could even make the fully unlocked weapon usage be tied to completely obtaining all traits within the E-Spec (So you get access to the weapon with the E-Spec upon spending the 30 points to obtain the E-Spec, but won't get to use the weapon in Core/other E-Specs until you've spent the 250 points to get the entire E-Spec)

Thus, E-Spec weapons are still a part of "End-game" (Which, more and more feels like "The beginning of the game" with so much stuff locked behind being level 80) and are still locked behind purchasing the relevant expansion to access said E-Spec (So F2P players aren't able to run around with E-Spec weapons)

Hope I did this right...

That's what end game is though. I've played MMOs that would kill to get the end game we get here. Yeah, we can still chew it up and spit it out pretty fast once it's released, but a new player that comes in and gets all the post release content will be busy for a while, and they'll be busy for a while post level cap. I'm not even all that hardcore, but I'm already spending HPs on DE on my DD, because I've got nothing left to spend them on, so I can imagine that there are others that have already maxed out all their e specs. Moving availability to core won't speed the "I've got nothing to work towards, may as well take a break" overmuch, but it will accelerate it. I'm not sure at what level I started having to bank HP because my Core was maxed out, I'm going to guess mid 70s, but I had something to look forward to in so far as those HP were concerned, with whatever e spec I'm going into, and figuring out how it works, and what I'm going to need for the final build.

Yeah, there's going to be lots of story to work toward, but for the players that aren't all that interested in it, or that have done it once, and don't want to do it again, there's nothing really left for them if they're sitting on their final build before they even finish the core story line, assuming, of course, they ever would.

The system works the way it is now, of course, because the game was already sitting at cap before there was any LS or expansions, but even if it were designed this way at launch, I think it would still be a good idea, especially w/out a gear treadmill to fill people's time towards progression.

I feel like, you are often on a different wavelength than everyone else. At least in this thread.

If anything, opening weapons to core after completing the ES Spec opens up the end game to more stuff....kinda significantly.

1. I would actually bother opening the other paths. I don't care for Mirage, or Scourge honestly. So I don't spend points into it. However if it unlocked the usage of the weapons for every spec, I'd be more inclined to do so. As I could still be in the spec I prefer, and play around with new weapons.

2. It would add 2 weapons (1 for Rev) to every class, so I could experiment more with builds. And spend more time trying out new things, and switching things around when I'm bored of the current weapons.

And both of those are only done in end-game.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Fractured.3928 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:It's not a good idea, but it's not a good idea because the whole point of e specs is a sense of progression after the level cap. We don't have a gear treadmill. Once one has crafted their endgame equipment, they're done with that. So, instead of giving us a real grind, they did this. Why "undo" it by moving the spec down to core, instead of endgame?

They could still put the weapon inside the E-Spec. Heck they could even make the fully unlocked weapon usage be tied to completely obtaining all traits within the E-Spec (So you get access to the weapon with the E-Spec upon spending the 30 points to obtain the E-Spec, but won't get to use the weapon in Core/other E-Specs until you've spent the 250 points to get the entire E-Spec)

Thus, E-Spec weapons are still a part of "End-game" (Which, more and more feels like "The beginning of the game" with so much stuff locked behind being level 80) and are still locked behind purchasing the relevant expansion to access said E-Spec (So F2P players aren't able to run around with E-Spec weapons)

Hope I did this right...

That's what end game is though. I've played MMOs that would kill to get the end game we get here. Yeah, we can still chew it up and spit it out pretty fast once it's released, but a new player that comes in and gets all the post release content will be busy for a while, and they'll be busy for a while post level cap. I'm not even all that hardcore, but I'm already spending HPs on DE on my DD, because I've got nothing left to spend them on, so I can imagine that there are others that have already maxed out all their e specs. Moving availability to core won't speed the "I've got nothing to work towards, may as well take a break" overmuch, but it will accelerate it. I'm not sure at what level I started having to bank HP because my Core was maxed out, I'm going to guess mid 70s, but I had something to look forward to in so far as those HP were concerned, with whatever e spec I'm going into, and figuring out how it works, and what I'm going to need for the final build.

Yeah, there's going to be lots of story to work toward, but for the players that aren't all that interested in it, or that have done it once, and don't want to do it again, there's nothing really left for them if they're sitting on their final build before they even finish the core story line, assuming, of course, they ever would.

The system works the way it is now, of course, because the game was already sitting at cap before there was any LS or expansions, but even if it were designed this way at launch, I think it would still be a good idea, especially w/out a gear treadmill to fill people's time towards progression.

I feel like, you are often on a different wavelength than everyone else. At least in this thread.

If anything, opening weapons to core after completing the ES Spec opens up the end game to more stuff....kinda significantly.

1. I would actually bother opening the other paths. I don't care for Mirage, or Scourge honestly. So I don't spend points into it. However if it unlocked the usage of the weapons for every spec, I'd be more inclined to do so. As I could still be in the spec I prefer, and play around with new weapons.

2. It would add 2 weapons (1 for Rev) to every class, so I could experiment more with builds. And spend more time trying out new things, and switching things around when I'm bored of the current weapons.

And both of those are only done in end-game.

Because that's primarily where it's needed. Maybe my wavelength is attuned to what it's like in other MMOs when all the content is done, and a new release means it's time to jump back on the gear treadmill. I'm not looking for that here, it's why I play here, when I do. I can go away for 6 months and come back and I won't be any worse off than I was when I went on break. Unlike, say swtor, where I'm great for level, but two tiers behind on BiS gear. Since, there, I was a progression raider, BiS was required.

If you have the points to spend in core, you'll have them for the especs. It's not like getting to 80 takes a couple of years to do, more like a couple of weeks, if you're playing consistently, but casually. I can probably do it in a week, w/out changing much about the way I play, other than focusing on just one toon. I've played MMOs where gaining one level, once you're within 40 or so levels of cap, takes a few months, if you're playing 4-5 hours a day, and grinding dungeon content for the best possible xp/min. Something like this might be worthwhile in that kind of situation, but here? Not so much. Here, if I want to see how the other half lives, I can roll an alt, and be there quickly enough. So I just don't see the need. For me, I have a DD, a DE and I'm goofing off with a short bow thief that won't be either one, just to see how well, or not, it plays. I could swap builds around to accomplish this, but it's easier, for me, to just have the three toons to work with. It feeds my altaholism really well too.

[Caitir.6947]

In theory I wouldn't mind the ES weapons being available to all the other specs, but I think practice would ruin that because some classes just benefit disproportionately. Core Guardian is actually competitive with its elite specs, and it would absolutely LOVE if you gave if it the Firebrand axe for Condi, especially in PvP. Core Guardian would benefit enough from Axe that nobody would care that Longbow is essentially useless on every build.

Necro can also make good use of its elite spec weapons because they're aren't really tied heavily into the elite spec, so they could be universal with ease.

Now we take Ranger... Staff is weak even for Druid, what makes you think Core Ranger or Soulbeast care if they get it? In no mode would it be used by them. They won't build to make use of it, and in PvP they like the Greatsword/LB too much to sacrifice one of those for a staff that only gives them mobility, in terms of useful aspects. A Condi Ranger might like MH Dagger, but Condi Ranger is currently bad for a multitude of reasons, so until the actual problems are addressed then the MH Dagger doesn't do anything useful, either. So that's 0/2 ES weapons that are useful for non-elite spec Rangers.

Mesmers and Mirages would probably like the Chrono shield, and a core Condi Mesmer might like the axe, but unfortunately a lot of the illusion spam that Mirages are known for are held by the ES trait line. In fact, the special attack feature of the Mirage that makes Axe and the illusion spam so damaging is exclusive to the Mirage, and that's a reasonably important part of their damage, so Mesmer/Chrono wouldn't be able to access that, further limiting the actual usefulness of the axe. So that's 1/2 ES weapons that are realistically useful as universal weapons.

This isn't even a matter of "Well, a lot of the core weapons are bad, too!" because in this case, barring a few specific examples, the ES weapons are NOT bad for the elite spec using them, but they would be extremely underwhelming to the degree that you'd just ask "what was the point?" in the hands of other specs. Unless you're arguing that they should be available literally just for the sake of being available, in which case more power to you, then you have to deal with the fact that classes absolutely would not be treated equally by this change, and balance changes would likely have to follow pretty quickly, which then impacts the Elite Specs that formerly used that weapon exclusively because of their base class or their Elite Spec.

I don't care about if the coding says they can or cannot be easily made accessible by the base classes, I care about the long-term impact and balance problems that such a change would cause. It also affects the identity and balance of Elite Specs and their weapons weapons, because when they're not exclusive to their Elite Spec, they have to be balanced with the other elite specs in mind, and depending on how the weapon was integrated into the Elite Spec they came with, that can have implications in the balance of that elite spec, as well.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Moving availability to core won't speed the "I've got nothing to work towards, may as well take a break" overmuch, but it will accelerate it.Not if we use the most common suggestion of unlocking the weapon for core/other especs only after its elite spec is unlocked fully.

I'm not sure at what level I started having to bank HP because my Core was maxed out, I'm going to guess mid 70s, but I had something to look forward to in so far as those HP were concerned, with whatever e spec I'm going into, and figuring out how it works, and what I'm going to need for the final build.And that would not change.

Yeah, there's going to be lots of story to work toward, but for the players that aren't all that interested in it, or that have done it once, and don't want to do it again, there's nothing really left for them if they're sitting on their final build before they even finish the core story line, assuming, of course, they ever would.

I don't see how the suggestion talked in this thread would change anything about it.

[Kodama.6453]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:A sort analysis of elite spec weapons:

GuardianDragonhunter: No trait supportFirebrand: One trait

RevenantHerald: Heralds channel Glint, one of her abilities was Crystal Hibernation (same as Shield 5). One traitRenegade: Shortbow is Kalla's weapon. One trait

WarriorBerserker: Would need to create a Primal Burst skill for Dagger. One traitSpellbreaker: One trait

EngineerScrapper: No trait supportHolosmith: Sword skills are affected by Heat

RangerDruid: One traitSoulbeast: No trait support (Rangers have access to offhand Dagger)

ThiefDaredevil: One traitDeadeye: Would need to create a Stealth Attack for Staff, One trait

ElementalistTempest: No trait supportWeaver: One trait (no need to create dual skills for warhorn, dual skills are based on mainhand weapon)

MesmerChronomancer: No trait support, however Shield allows the application of Alacrity, which is a boon Mesmers do not have access to without going Chronomancer (Signet of Inspiration is the exception since it provides a random boon)Mirage: One trait

NecromancerReaper: No trait supportScourge: One trait

6 / 18 elite spec weapons do not even have traits to augment them (Dragonhunter, Scrapper, Soulbeast, Tempest, Chronomancer, Reaper)2 / 18 elite spec weapons require the creation of extra skills (Dagger Primal Burst to add it to Berserker, Staff Stealth Attack to add it to Deadeye)2 / 18 elite spec weapons are affected by profession abilities/traits (Sword affected by Heat on Holosmith, Shield providing Alacrity on Chronomancer)

Correction reaper has a trait for gs the mid top trait affects greatsword

This trait applies to all damage you deal while in melee, it is not specifically a greatsword support skill.He is talking about traits which specifically have are applying to the weapons altering them directly.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Moving availability to core won't speed the "I've got nothing to work towards, may as well take a break" overmuch, but it will accelerate it.Not if we use the most common suggestion of unlocking the weapon for core/other especs only after its elite spec is unlocked fully.

I'm not sure at what level I started having to bank HP because my Core was maxed out, I'm going to guess mid 70s, but I had something to look forward to in so far as those HP were concerned, with whatever e spec I'm going into, and figuring out how it works, and what I'm going to need for the final build.And that would not change.

Yeah, there's going to be lots of story to work toward, but for the players that aren't all that interested in it, or that have done it once, and don't want to do it again, there's nothing really left for them if they're sitting on their final build before they even finish the core story line, assuming, of course, they ever would.

I don't see how the suggestion talked in this thread would change anything about it.

So as it stands right now, you have basic, specialization and e spec. Specializations have a level requirement, w/out looking, I'm guessing 30 or 31, and then e specs require the core build maxed out, and level 80. E specs unlock the weapons we're discussing moving, so how does it not change anything about it? If you're not trying to move the weapon to the leveling process, or to other classes, then what's the point of moving it at all?

If it's "we're going to move it to leveling, but require the appropriate spec be maxed out" then the change will change everything about the leveling process. If not, there's no point in spending any development time on it, if it's just to unlock it 5ish levels early. The other thing that occurs to me is that this would do more to "standardize" builds than even what the current meta does. Because there are weapons that, if available on most/all classes, would preclude any use of anything else, especially on the "meta" levels. I hit a wall on my Druid, for example, because I don't like the way the staff behaves, and find I'm better off using core specializations, for the way I prefer to play. Reading through this, it would seem that I accidentally stumbled onto the "meta" version, since I prefer LB/GS to the staff. At any rate, this would very definitely change something. Isn't that the whole point of the thread, to change something?

[Astralporing.1957]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:So as it stands right now, you have basic, specialization and e spec. Specializations have a level requirement, w/out looking, I'm guessing 30 or 31, and then e specs require the core build maxed out, and level 80. E specs unlock the weapons we're discussing moving, so how does it not change anything about it?

You should really learn to read first the thread you're responding to, because this isanother time you seem to think we're talking about something else than we actually did.

No, the proposal that was brought up here was like that:

• you level up to 80
• you max out the core
• you unlock espec
• you max out that espec (unlock all the traits/skills).
• from that point on, on that one character, the espec weapon becomes available also to core class and other especs of that class

(so, for example, to use weaver sword on core ele and tempest, you would need to max out core ele and weaver on that character first)

If you're not trying to move the weapon to the leveling process, or to other classes, then what's the point of moving it at all?The point is not that you would get something early. The point is that you would get access to espec weapon even when running builds from core and/or the other espec. You would still need to work for it, but in exchange you would get a few more choices available.

I hit a wall on my Druid, for example, because I don't like the way the staff behaves, and find I'm better off using core specializations, for the way I prefer to play. Reading through this, it would seem that I accidentally stumbled onto the "meta" version, since I prefer LB/GS to the staff.

That's because staff is a weapon mainly for the healer druid build. And the weapons you use are for a power build, which is specifically something druid, of all Ranger options, is probably the worst choice for. Druid staff however, as a very specialized weapon, is probably most extreme case here. Even more extreme than the currently completely useless DH Longbow, which at least still has the change of getting upgraded at some point.

At any rate, this would very definitely change something. Isn't that the whole point of the thread, to change something?Yes. It will change something obviously. I don't see what is the relevance of bringing that up however, seeing as, by itself, it's not an argument for (or against) anything.

[Fractured.3928]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:So as it stands right now, you have basic, specialization and e spec. Specializations have a level requirement, w/out looking, I'm guessing 30 or 31, and then e specs require the core build maxed out, and level 80. E specs unlock the weapons we're discussing moving, so how does it not change anything about it?

You should really learn to read first the thread you're responding to, because this isanother time you seem to think we're talking about something else than we actually did.

No, the proposal that was brought up here was like that:

• you level up to 80
• you max out the core
• you unlock espec
• you max out that espec (unlock all the traits/skills).
• from that point on
  , on that one character, the espec weapon becomes available also to core class and other especs of that class

(so, for example, to use weaver sword on core ele and tempest, you would need to max out core ele and weaver on that character first)

If you're not trying to move the weapon to the leveling process, or to other classes, then what's the point of moving it at all?The point is not that you would get something early. The point is that you would get access to espec weapon even when running builds from core and/or the other espec. You would still need to work for it, but in exchange you would get a few more choices available.

I hit a wall on my Druid, for example, because I don't like the way the staff behaves, and find I'm better off using core specializations, for the way I prefer to play. Reading through this, it would seem that I accidentally stumbled onto the "meta" version, since I prefer LB/GS to the staff.

That's because staff is a weapon mainly for the

healer

druid build. And the weapons you use are for a power build, which is specifically something druid, of all Ranger options, is probably the worst choice for. Druid staff however, as a very specialized weapon, is probably most extreme case here. Even more extreme than the currently completely useless DH Longbow, which at least still has the change of getting upgraded at some point.

At any rate, this would very definitely change something. Isn't that the whole point of the thread, to change something?Yes. It will change something obviously. I don't see what is the relevance of bringing that up however, seeing as, by itself, it's not an argument for (or against) anything.

I gave up on that one, you should too lol.

All in all, there are legit reasons to not do it. However, I still believe those problems could be resolved to some degree.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:So as it stands right now, you have basic, specialization and e spec. Specializations have a level requirement, w/out looking, I'm guessing 30 or 31, and then e specs require the core build maxed out, and level 80. E specs unlock the weapons we're discussing moving, so how does it not change anything about it?

You should really learn to read first the thread you're responding to, because this isanother time you seem to think we're talking about something else than we actually did.

No, the proposal that was brought up here was like that:

• you level up to 80
• you max out the core
• you unlock espec
• you max out that espec (unlock all the traits/skills).
• from that point on
  , on that one character, the espec weapon becomes available also to core class and other especs of that class

(so, for example, to use weaver sword on core ele and tempest, you would need to max out core ele and weaver on that character first)

If you're not trying to move the weapon to the leveling process, or to other classes, then what's the point of moving it at all?The point is not that you would get something early. The point is that you would get access to espec weapon even when running builds from core and/or the other espec. You would still need to work for it, but in exchange you would get a few more choices available.

I hit a wall on my Druid, for example, because I don't like the way the staff behaves, and find I'm better off using core specializations, for the way I prefer to play. Reading through this, it would seem that I accidentally stumbled onto the "meta" version, since I prefer LB/GS to the staff.

That's because staff is a weapon mainly for the

healer

druid build. And the weapons you use are for a power build, which is specifically something druid, of all Ranger options, is probably the worst choice for. Druid staff however, as a very specialized weapon, is probably most extreme case here. Even more extreme than the currently completely useless DH Longbow, which at least still has the change of getting upgraded at some point.

At any rate, this would very definitely change something. Isn't that the whole point of the thread, to change something?Yes. It will change something obviously. I don't see what is the relevance of bringing that up however, seeing as, by itself, it's not an argument for (or against) anything.

With the exception of core, you can do this already, if you're working both e specs. I'm still coming back to "removes the uniqueness" of those specs, if you can just throw the weapon on any spec. It's already been mentioned that this would seriously break some classes, weren't you one of those that pointed out that Ele would be broken beyond belief? That's a whole lot of dev time that could go to something else, especially after the fact, while they figure out how to gain some semblance of balance. In a purely PvE game, it may not matter much, but with PvP in the mix, the forums will blow up every time someone gets owned, especially if they don't have access, or even if they do.

[Lonami.2987]

@Fractured.3928 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

Though, there is something to be said about additional workload with things like Primal Burst for Warrior MH Dagger, Malicious variant of Thief Staff stealth skill and additional dual attunement skills for Weaver Warhorn...

I didn't even think about the Weaver, and how that would force them to deal with that on every single expansion. That so far is the biggest argument against this imo.

Weaver, Berserker, Mirage... All of them have weapon-tied skills. They can compromise and update them every time new weapons are introduced, or just limit free weapon availability to core professions.

I mean, rangers will get new pets for sure, which is going to require soulbeast updates. It wouldn't be that far-fetched to give the same treatment to the other professions. It's work, yes, but the value of elite specializations would grow. You don't like daredevil, but you like wielding a staff? Now you have reasons to train it.

Also, we should be open to the implementation of new weapons for core professions as well, specially if they introduce new weapon types. There's always going to be work to do no matter what.

If things get out of control, going back to the design table for some elite specializations might be better than just giving up on updates altogether. Weaver having 10 new skills for every weapon sounds like a terrible idea, and I'm kinda surprised they didn't go for something simpler. Every profession is missing one healing skill and two elite skills too (revenant is missing a whole core legend), why not spend resources there instead? Core professions need some love too, and elite specializations shouldn't be the only way to progress.

[Katary.7096]

@Fractured.3928 said:To me it seems silly that Elite Spec weapons are still tied to Elite Specs. Sure, the weapons obviously benefit from those specs, but there are weapons that I far prefer to continue using with other specs.Does it seem silly to you, that elite specialization healing, utility and elite skills are tied to the elite spec?

[Astralporing.1957]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:With the exception of core, you can do this already, if you're working both e specs.You really should read the thread because with every post you show that you don;t know what we're even talking about.

No, you can't do "this" already. Neither on core, nor on especs.

I'm still coming back to "removes the uniqueness" of those specs, if you can just throw the weapon on any spec.

It's already been mentioned that this would seriously break some classesHas been mentioned, but with hardly any proof to that end.

weren't you one of those that pointed out that Ele would be broken beyond belief?No, actually i wasn't. I don't think that sword on tempest or core would make Ele "broken beyond belief" (and warhorn isn't really even used by tempest now, so it making any other spec broken is pretty much unlikely).

That's a whole lot of dev time that could go to something elseOh, i know, we all have different priorities, and i can understand that you'd rather have that dev time used for something else. Although i am also sure, that there are people that would find the things you want a waste of dev time as well.

especially after the fact, while they figure out how to gain some semblance of balance. In a purely PvE game, it may not matter much, but with PvP in the mix, the forums will blow up every time someone gets owned, especially if they don't have access, or even if they do.The PvP forums already blow up every time someone gets owned. It's pretty much a constant since the very beginning of the game.

[maddoctor.2738]

Regarding Weaver and Warhorn, because I see it a lot, dual skills depend on the main hand only. A Weaver using Scepter / Dagger will have the same dual skill as Scepter / Focus, so allowing Weavers to use the Warhorn will not cause any issues with new skills. However, that would create problems with future elite specs if Elementalists get a new main hand or a two-handed weapon, those WILL need dual skills.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:With the exception of core, you can do this already, if you're working both e specs.You really should read the thread because with every post you show that you don;t know what we're even talking about.

No, you can't do "this" already. Neither on core, nor on especs.

I'm still coming back to "removes the uniqueness" of those specs, if you can just throw the weapon on any spec.

It's already been mentioned that this would seriously break some classesHas been mentioned, but with hardly any proof to that end.

weren't you one of those that pointed out that Ele would be broken beyond belief?No, actually i wasn't. I don't think that sword on tempest or core would make Ele "broken beyond belief" (and warhorn isn't really even used by tempest now, so it making any other spec broken is pretty much unlikely).

That's a whole lot of dev time that could go to something elseOh, i know, we all have different priorities, and i can understand that you'd rather have that dev time used for something else. Although i am also sure, that there are people that would find the things

you

want a waste of dev time as well.

especially after the fact, while they figure out how to gain some semblance of balance. In a purely PvE game, it may not matter much, but with PvP in the mix, the forums will blow up every time someone gets owned, especially if they don't have access, or even if they do.The PvP forums already blow up every time someone gets owned. It's pretty much a constant since the very beginning of the game.

Yes, I know, you want to be able to use the weapon, with none of the stuff that makes it special. You may as well be asking to just press 1 in group content and be effective then. I've seen the argument that e specs are more powerful than core specs. I'm not, however, seeing "the weapon makes the e spec more powerful". There's a reason for that, the power comes from the spec itself, not just from having a new weapon to add to the arsenal. It's funny, to me, that people are surprised that I don't understand why they would want to make themselves objectively weaker, by removing all the benefits from an e spec except the weapon, and that's exactly what this would do. Assuming, for a minute, that this actually went through, and got added, how long until "well, that wasn't as cool as I thought it would be, when can we get the benefits from the spec w/out equipping the spec". What's going to be even funnier is if this is already in this thread, and I just overlooked it.

"But Rob, that'll never happen", right? I remember DDO, and the "We need a hard mode, the game's too easy". I was against the dev time being spent on it, because I knew it was going to be a never ending cycle of "but it's too hard, you need to nerf it". Fast forward a couple of years, and the hard mode was introduced, and it didn't take a week before "but it's stupid hard, and needs to be nerfed" became a regular thing. I got banned from the forums because those hardcore players couldn't handle me pointing and laughing at what I knew was going to happen.

Now, some classes will support just getting a new weapon better than others, but some weapons just won't work well outside of their spec. How effective is a rifle on a thief, w/out malice and the other DE mechanics to back it up? It's a two handed pistol, with longer range? This one's fresh in my mind, because I've been working a new DE, and the further into the spec I get, the stronger that rifle gets. If it was to stay at what the initial 30 point buy gives, it's better to not take it all. So that's a whole lot of dev time devoted to some niche weapons and specs. Not really worth the investment. Why mess with it, if it's not going to really improve the whole game, and where it is effective, why add more fuel to the usual "Rock/Paper/Scissors" nerf discussion?

[Taril.8619]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:It's funny, to me, that people are surprised that I don't understand why they would want to make themselves objectively weaker, by removing all the benefits from an e spec except the weapon, and that's exactly what this would do.

1) Overworld PvE doesn't require particularly high standards of character capacity, thus "Sub-optimal" builds play just fine there and more weapons means more interesting ways for people to play there.

2) The "Benefits of an E-Spec" in regards to weapons, has only very minor impact on the actual performance of a weapon. There are few E-Spec weapons that are wholly dependent on the E-Spec in order to make them function (Deadeye Rifle and arguably Holosmith Sword) the rest of the questionable ones simply lack a good build to use along with them (Something that can be addressed by new E-Specs, updates to Core Specs and overall balance changes)

3) Core Builds are viable in certain areas of the game (Notably, PvP/WvW where going full glass cannon with 3 DPS specs is often a terrible idea) which can be improved by having better weapons to utilize.

4) Having the option to use E-Spec weapons outside of their E-Spec, isn't limited to just Core builds. It lets you use E-Specs, with the weapon from a different E-Spec. This means you're not "Removing all benefits from an E-Spec", you're still getting the full E-Spec benefits you're just utilizing it with an alternate weapon, like every E-Spec currently does when they use Core weapons.

[Fractured.3928]

@Katary.7096 said:

@Fractured.3928 said:To me it seems silly that Elite Spec weapons are still tied to Elite Specs. Sure, the weapons obviously benefit from those specs, but there are weapons that I far prefer to continue using with other specs.Does it seem silly to you, that elite specialization healing, utility and elite skills are tied to the elite spec?

Yeah, they would be sub-optimal, but I don't see a reason to hold them back. They have much longer cooldowns, usually not as much impact as a weapons ability, so the actual impact on gameplay on way or another would be reduced. I don't care either way, utility is utility for a reason.

As far as I'm concerned, Weapons are a playstyle. And utilities are just there to support your weapon. Big difference.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

@Fractured.3928 said:To me it seems silly that Elite Spec weapons are still tied to Elite Specs. Sure, the weapons obviously benefit from those specs, but there are weapons that I far prefer to continue using with other specs.

My two big examples is, I LOVE the Necro's two handed sword, and I don't want to lose it just because I want to try the new ES.

And if Mesmer actually manages to get a main hand pistol, I DEFINITELY want that, but I love Chronomancer so much.

I just want to play with the weapons I want, while using the ES that I enjoy the most. And I don't particularly see a reason for it to be forced like it continues to be. My damage might get hit a bit, but I'm a super casual, so don't really care.

You love Necro GS so much that you don't want to try a completely different eSpec/playstyle because it doesn't have the GS. It's like saying you gotta have chocolate on your pasta because you like chocolate on your cake. Saying you won't even try the pasta and experience it for what it is unless it has chocolate on it sounds limiting.

But let's say you have tried the 'other' eSpec, mastered it's functions and understood it's nuances, it's highlights and you STILL felt that you need that chocolate. Maybe you should just be sticking with the spec you already like!

Personally I have had less fun playing Scourge, Weaver, Mirage (although I have tried!) but I don't disrespect the intent of these builds. Scourge specifically, having a GS wouldn't make it play much differently, it would still be what it is as an eSpec and I would suggest that if you tried and didn't like Scourge without GS that you likely wouldn't like it with GS.

You say you love Chrono (so do I!), and while it would be fun to have Chrono specifically updated with a new weapon, I am really looking forward to Cantha for a chance to try a different build that pushes a different aspect of Mesmer. Maybe I will fall in love with that eSpec, or maybe not, but being able to use a Shield (Chrono) or Axe (Mirage) with it won't define weather or not the eSpec is enjoyable.

tl;dr

Chocolate doesn't go on everything, and that is okay. Experience the game for what it is and if it isn't what you want, that is okay.

[otto.5684]

Balance wise, this would be very broken. However, I am in favour of broken stuff in OWpve. I do not think mobs will complain.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Yes, I know, you want to be able to use the weapon, with none of the stuff that makes it special. You may as well be asking to just press 1 in group content and be effective then....and here i thought we were debating seriously.

I've seen the argument that e specs are more powerful than core specs.Because they are.I'm not, however, seeing "the weapon makes the e spec more powerful". There's a reason for that, the power comes from the spec itself, not just from having a new weapon to add to the arsenal.Indeed. That is one of the main arguments supporting that change. It's not the weapons that are so OP, but the other parts of the especs (traitline, skills, and special mechanic changes). And since the weapons themselves are not all that strong, they can be unlocked on core and other espec with relative safety, without having to worry how badly will that impact the balance. That has been mentioned in this thread already, by the way.

It's funny, to me, that people are surprised that I don't understand why they would want to make themselves objectively weaker, by removing all the benefits from an e spec except the weapon, and that's exactly what this would do.

I can assure you that the people asking for it are completely aware of that aspect (it has been mentioned in this thread already, if you haven't noticed), and yet they still ask for it. And you not understanding why they might want it is not an argument against implementing that feature.

Assuming, for a minute, that this actually went through, and got added, how long until "well, that wasn't as cool as I thought it would be, when can we get the benefits from the spec w/out equipping the spec". What's going to be even funnier is if this is already in this thread, and I just overlooked it.As i mentioned above, you sure did overlook the parts that show that people already are aware that the weapons without their supporting traits won't be as good as they are on their original espec.

Now, some classes will support just getting a new weapon better than others, but some weapons just won't work well outside of their spec.That's true. We know this already.How effective is a rifle on a thief, w/out malice and the other DE mechanics to back it up?Not very. We know that already.It's a two handed pistol, with longer range? This one's fresh in my mind, because I've been working a new DE, and the further into the spec I get, the stronger that rifle gets. If it was to stay at what the initial 30 point buy gives, it's better to not take it all.For everyone min-maxing their build, that's definitely true, for a huge majority of the espec weapons. We know that already.Notice, by the way, that a huge majority of this game's players are not playing it effectively, and are often making the build and weapon choices based more on feel and thematics than effectiveness.

So that's a whole lot of dev time devoted to some niche weapons and specs.Yes. It's not like there weren't even more niche things supported in this game at some point, though.

Not really worth the investment.For you. Apparently, some people think otherwise.

Why mess with it, if it's not going to really improve the whole game, and where it is effective, why add more fuel to the usual "Rock/Paper/Scissors" nerf discussion?I'd say that kind of thinking would stop implementation of a majority (or at least a huge part) of this game's features.

So, as far as i can see, you don't actually have any arguments for why implementing this would be bad for the game. You just don't feel the need for this feature yourself.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Yes, I know, you want to be able to use the weapon, with none of the stuff that makes it special. You may as well be asking to just press 1 in group content and be effective then....and here i thought we were debating seriously.

I've seen the argument that e specs are more powerful than core specs.Because they are.I'm not, however, seeing "the weapon makes the e spec more powerful". There's a reason for that, the power comes from the spec itself, not just from having a new weapon to add to the arsenal.Indeed. That is one of the main arguments

supporting

that change. It's not the weapons that are so OP, but the other parts of the especs (traitline, skills, and special mechanic changes). And since the weapons themselves are not all that strong, they

can

be unlocked on core and other espec with relative safety, without having to worry how badly will that impact the balance. That

has

been mentioned in this thread already, by the way.

It's funny, to me, that people are surprised that I don't understand why they would want to make themselves objectively weaker, by removing all the benefits from an e spec except the weapon, and that's exactly what this would do.

I can assure you that the people asking for it are completely aware of that aspect (it has been mentioned in this thread already, if you haven't noticed), and yet they

still

ask for it. And you not understanding

why

they might want it is

not

an argument against implementing that feature.

Assuming, for a minute, that this actually went through, and got added, how long until "well, that wasn't as cool as I thought it would be, when can we get the benefits from the spec w/out equipping the spec". What's going to be even funnier is if this is already in this thread, and I just overlooked it.As i mentioned above, you sure did overlook the parts that show that people already

are

aware that the weapons without their supporting traits won't be as good as they are on their original espec.

Now, some classes will support just getting a new weapon better than others, but some weapons just won't work well outside of their spec.That's true. We know this already.How effective is a rifle on a thief, w/out malice and the other DE mechanics to back it up?Not very. We know that already.It's a two handed pistol, with longer range? This one's fresh in my mind, because I've been working a new DE, and the further into the spec I get, the stronger that rifle gets. If it was to stay at what the initial 30 point buy gives, it's better to not take it all.For everyone min-maxing their build, that's definitely true, for a huge majority of the espec weapons. We know that already.Notice, by the way, that a huge majority of this game's players are

not

playing it effectively, and are often making the build and weapon choices based more on feel and thematics than effectiveness.

So that's a whole lot of dev time devoted to some niche weapons and specs.Yes. It's not like there weren't even more niche things supported in this game at some point, though.

Not really worth the investment.For you. Apparently, some people think otherwise.

Why mess with it, if it's not going to really improve the whole game, and where it is effective, why add more fuel to the usual "Rock/Paper/Scissors" nerf discussion?I'd say that kind of thinking would stop implementation of a majority (or at least a huge part) of this game's features.

So, as far as i can see, you don't actually have any arguments for why implementing this would be

bad

for the game. You just don't feel the need for this feature yourself.

Technically in this case I'd say he had some, but you answered to them with "we know that already" and "for you. Apparently some people think otherwise" -to which we can answer "apparently anet thinks differently than those some people" and here we have our great "debate" I guess. :D

[Astralporing.1957]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:So, as far as i can see, you don't actually have any arguments for why implementing this would be

bad

for the game. You just don't feel the need for this feature yourself.

Technically in this case I'd say he had some, but you answered to them with "we already know that" and "for you. Apparently some people think otherwise" -to which we can answer "apparently anet thinks differently than those

some people

" and here we have our great "debate" I guess. :DActually, none of those arguments are about whether this feature would be bad (or good) for the game. All of them are about @robertthebard.8150 saying in many ways that

he

doesn't

think

that feature is

needed

. Which is exactly what i said in the post you quoted. His only argument against it being implemented is that he doesn't feel the need for it.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:So, as far as i can see, you don't actually have any arguments for why implementing this would be

bad

for the game. You just don't feel the need for this feature yourself.

Technically in this case I'd say he had some, but you answered to them with "we already know that" and "for you. Apparently some people think otherwise" -to which we can answer "apparently anet thinks differently than those

some people

" and here we have our great "debate" I guess. :DActually, none of those arguments are about whether this feature would be bad (or good) for the game. All of them are about @robertthebard.8150 saying in many ways that

he

doesn't

think

that feature is

needed

. Which is exactly what i said in the post you quoted. His only argument against it being implemented is that he doesn't feel the need for it.

While true, we can also easly argue that there's no real reason to implement that change other than the fact that some people want it, right? If we don't want any subjectives in this matter and someone tells me they want to use e-spec's weapon in core build then the easy -and objectively true- answer would be: you can't, if you want to use espec content, play an espec.

[Katary.7096]

@Fractured.3928 said:Yeah, they would be sub-optimal, but I don't see a reason to hold them back. They have much longer cooldowns, usually not as much impact as a weapons ability, so the actual impact on gameplay on way or another would be reduced. I don't care either way, utility is utility for a reason.Just off the top of my head: The Glint legend has interesting abilities for non-heralds. A few of the Firebrand mantras would be very powerful in core guardian and dragonhunter builds. And warriors are brought into zerg fights in WvW pretty much for their spellbreaker elite skill. The non-weapon elite specialization skills could be quite impactful, if they were ever unlinked from their elite specs.As far as I'm concerned, Weapons are a playstyle. And utilities are just there to support your weapon. Big difference.Does not sound true for Chronomancer's shield or Berserker's torch, some of those skills you get to cast two or three times each minute, that would make for a pretty boring playstyle.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Sobx.1758 said:While true, we can also easly argue that there's no real reason to implement that change other than the fact that some people want it, right?Yes. The difference however is that some people wanting something is an argument for implementing it (with the strength of that argument depending on the number of said people, of course), but some people not feeling a need for it is just those people lacking an argument for it, it's not an argument against it.