Impossible for new players! RAIDS!

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:You're not accounting for these being

UNIQUE

rewards which are not available elsewhere in the game.

IMO they're not. The mistforged variants of WvW and PVP armor have more up to date graphics and coalescence almost makes me gag with its graphic. Also, other MMOs deprecate old content making it easier to grab the unique things, which was my main point. Mythic Antorus is the only place you can earn the corresponding tier set. WoW DOES have a few rewards that go away, but they're clearly communicated and a 100% drop rate so even filthy casuals can just farm some gold and buy a run (a single boss kill actually) and they're done (doing the same thing in GW2 costs WAY more cash in real dollars if we're talking the leggies as you have to pay for 150-300 kills depending on your account and what exactly we're talking about).

updated for accuracy.

Personal preference is not the same as there being no unique rewards.

As I had said in another part of the post you quoted, Anet has specifically stated that they would “depreciate” older raids as time went on.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:

Obviously they should have a way to disable this mastery so what few people are still raiding are still raiding & get the full rewards, but honestly the content, especially W1-W4 are so old, they deserve a deprecation path like this if we want GW2 comparable to other MMOs. I also believe the raiding community is getting weaker, not stronger right now, all I've seen is anecdotal but that's my impresson.

This would go against their statement when raids first came out if they were to "depreciate" it.

Yes. It would. So? It's clear their original approach did

not

work out. If they're going to keep to it, it means no new raids ever. Is that what you want?

You’re assuming that them not making earlier raids easier is the issue.

[yann.1946]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Then this layer of difficulty serves no purpose as gateway or training mechanism for raids.Yes. Indeed, the usefulness of such mode for training, while existing, should never be considered as an important factor. It would be less important, than, for example, segregating "players who have different approaches and goals for a mode", so they won't end meeting in the same group.

You nicely skipped the second part of the response where I commented on what another poster suggested that even an easy mode might very well attract players with different goals, which makes the entire approach of segregation meaningless. Besides splitting the player base even further.Nah, currently this is a problem, because it's simply not possible for those two groups to play separately. One of those groups can indeed try to filter out the seccond, but the other cannot. That's because, in order to play separately from the first group, and still succeed, they would have to

become

first group first.

Which is the same as saying: in order to succeed at raids, one would have to adopt a raiding mindset and approach. Agreed.

@Astralporing.1957 said:In easy mode those two types of groups could play alongside each other without too much interference. Most people would simply avoid the training runs that would try to do all mechanics - the same way most players ignored the speedclear dungeon runs in the past. And the same way speedclear runners ignored the "casual run" and "all welcome" dungeon LFGs.

And no, it would not split the playerbase further. That split already exists, no new splintering would happen. The "training" groups from easy mode would eventually go up to normal and join the main raider community (perhaps being more prepared for it now, and with lower chances of running face-first into some experience that woudl make them run away). The non-training players would still remain separate from raiding community. Nothing about this split would change.

That's a lot of assumption on your part. I'm just going to say:

• assuming there is enough players who would play easy mode raids is just that: an assumption
• which ties strait into rewards, because easier content in this game often means less exclusive rewards, unless you want to syphon players away from the normal mode which would again be a detriment to regular raids
• I've seen just as toxic "non" raid players in open world content, more even because there is literally no reason to be toxic there. You yourself often bring the argument that there is this huge divide in player skill. No matter how easy content is, there will always be those who find it challenging in this game. Some of the most toxic individuals I have met in this game were semi competent players, some times strait up terrible, who assumed they were far better then they are.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:In the past there was already constraint on the resources devoted to raid content, which in some of our opinions is the ACTUAL reason for this content decline. Just like Spvp, WvW and fractals, which have seen similar decline due to lack of attention and content. Spreading the same amount of resources across multiple difficulties would have meant even less content in terms of actual raids OR requiring more developer attention, which in turn would have meant less content in other areas, most likely other PvE.

So no, it's not a win-win especially if we consider that as some have pointed out, easy raids might not even address some of the issues which players argue for: most notably a better way to enter the content.

If this is about only easier access to the rewards, everyone can have their own stance on it, but it is something far different than "we need easy raids for training purposes".

As far as the current situation and if there is no development resources allocated, then sure, any resources spent on any part of the mode might be in some way beneficial. That's a very different outset than the past though and again, requires resources be pulled from other content.Well, yeah, now it's way too late for that probably, especially seeing as they seem to have some major resource problems at the moment. As for the past though - sure, we can't be sure that it would have worked. But we already know that jealously protecting those resources then

didn't

work. The way of thinking that was too afraid to use some of those resources to try something new in order to potentially save raids was the one that ensured that no attempt was ever made, and thus made raids' demise

certain

.

Yes, any attempt to fix raids would have required taking some risk. It's just that "playing it safe", and avoiding all the risk led to the path where

all

was lost.

I find this entire argument so disingenuous (not you specifically but the entire argument that easy mode raids would have beneficially affected this situation almost as though it were guaranteed).

Where were the big demands to add more developers to raid content in the past? All I recall is players who enjoy and open world content constantly demanding more open world content, especially during the content drought which also hit raids, especially during that time. Why did no one make the argument then to delay open world and season content even more in favor of raid and easy mode raid development? Simple, no one dared make that demand because they would have been crucified by the open world zealots. As a matter of fact, I would have been against this redistribution of resources myself because I never wanted this game to become more raid centric, and I've stated as much in the past multiple times.

Why is it that the niche game modes, which already see far less developer attention, are supposed to give? The time frame between raid wings was close to 1 year towards the end. Delaying that content even more would have most likely lead to an even faster demise of the player base without additional resources devoted and that is an assumption which can actually be supported in things happening in this game and via basic logic. You can pretend as much as you want that the potential "more players" which this could have drawn might have halted that flow-off, but you have little in way of substantiating this assumption. What we know for certain, and this has been evident in ALL content in this game no matter the mode: lack of developer attention and new content leads to player loss for each and every area of the game. This has been and is visible in Spvp, WvW, fractals, raids, open world, living world, story, etc. EVERYWHERE!

This entire notion that something might have been different or better is just a baseless assumption based on the premise that more players might be interested in raid content or that the assets used could be reused. They could have just as well made single players story missions with the raid bosses and that would have likely been a wiser asset investment than easy mode raids IF asset share was of a major concern.

Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

I completely agree with the last part you said. But I feel this is more a consequence of people wanting their biases confirmed. Someone wants easy mode and sees raids decline so it must be the lack of easy mode, not the plethora of other problems the game in general has.

Although maybe it's more the mindset of some people that niche content is intrinsically bad.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

I am not a fan of tiered raids or scaling difficulty for the same instances. Looking at Fractals, some of them have been successful with different tiers, others, less so.

However I think there should be better training tools available and something like a Solo Training Instance/Arena would be useful for new players. Something to get players up to speed on various game mechanics they may expect in ALL game types.

For example, in this theoretical training arena, the player would face challenges including CC and Breakbars, Ground AoE, Telegraphed Attacks and Dodge Rolling, Buffing and Debuffing, Condi Cleanse, etc. The intent is to allow players a 'learn at your own pace' type system, outside of any existing content by focusing on the specific mechanics not rewards or group play. It should be really deliberate like "equip a weapon or skill that can provide CC and then break bars on 5 training dummies".

I would suggest that these training activities give no rewards but, perhaps, a title or achieve that could represent that a player has completed the introductory training and understands the core game mechanics.

The problem isn't at the top of the chain, it is at the bottom, where new players start. I feel that by raising the lowest common denominator for player knowledge will increase uptake in those joining new raids or strike groups and being successful. With greater base knowledge more time can be spent on the nuances of a specific fight and successfully clearing in a timely manner.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:I find this entire argument so disingenuous (not you specifically but the entire argument that easy mode raids would have beneficially affected this situation almost as though it were guaranteed).Oh, i don't know if it were guaranteed. I know, though, that not doing anything had a guaranteed end.

Where were the big demands to add more developers to raid content in the past?Nowhere. If Anet were willing to add more developers to raids, they'd have done so when raids were still their favourite.

By the way, by asking this you are proving my point. Raiders might have been okay with easy mode if that was coming from some other resources than theirs, but they were not willing to take any risk with their resources. And since they weren't willing to take any risk, they ended up losing all. Because there simply was no way to do anything about raids without taking some risks with those resources.

Why is it that the niche game modes, which already see far less developer attention, are supposed to give?Oh, i don't know, in order to potentially save themselves, maybe?

The time frame between raid wings was close to 1 year towards the end. Delaying that content even more would have most likely lead to an even faster demise of the player base without additional resources devoted and that is an assumption which can actually be supported in things happening in this game and via basic logic.Yes, it might have. Or it might have helped. Who knows. But not gambling on that (or any other - not there were really any more suggestions, by the way) unknown chance of survival was a certain demise.

This entire notion that something might have been different or better is just a baseless assumption based on the premise that more players might be interested in raid content or that the assets used could be reused. They could have just as well made single players story missions with the raid bosses and that would have likely been a wiser asset investment than easy mode raids IF asset share was of a major concern.This entire notion that doing nothing and letting Anet inevitably abandon Raids was the best choice is just Raiders trying to placate themselves thinking that they weren't the ones responsible and that there was simply nothing to be done. If you want to believe that, please, do so. Raids will not stop being abandoned due to this, though.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:This would go against their statement when raids first came out if they were to "depreciate" it.

Yes. It would. So? It's clear their original approach did

not

work out. If they're going to keep to it, it means no new raids ever. Is that what you want?

You’re assuming that them not making earlier raids easier is the issue.No. I am assuming that if something is obviously wrong, and it's clear that the matters don't go in good direction, not doing anything but just continuing on the previous course just because we're sticking to some completely arbitrary prior decision is not the wisest choice.

Original design decisions should never be considered sacrosanct and completely unviolable - especially when it's clear that something somewhere in those original designs is not working right. Sometimes things need to change.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:This would go against their statement when raids first came out if they were to "depreciate" it.

Yes. It would. So? It's clear their original approach did

not

work out. If they're going to keep to it, it means no new raids ever. Is that what you want?

You’re assuming that them not making earlier raids easier is the issue.No. I am assuming that if something is obviously wrong, and it's clear that the matters don't go in good direction, not doing anything but just continuing on the previous course just because we're sticking to some completely arbitrary prior decision is not the wisest choice.

Original design decisions should never be considered sacrosanct and completely unviolable - especially when it's clear that something somewhere in those original designs is not working right. Sometimes things need to change.

Something is obviously wrong? What would that be? The issue with raids stems not with raids themselves but with the direction Anet decided to go with GW2 from the beginning.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I find this entire argument so disingenuous (not you specifically but the entire argument that easy mode raids would have beneficially affected this situation almost as though it were guaranteed).Oh, i don't know if it were guaranteed. I know, though, that not doing anything

had

a guaranteed end.

Where were the big demands to add more developers to raid content in the past?Nowhere. If Anet were willing to add more developers to raids, they'd have done so when raids were still their favourite.

By the way, by asking this you are proving my point. Raiders might have been okay with easy mode if that was coming from some other resources than theirs, but they were not willing to take any risk with

their

resources. And since they weren't willing to take any risk, they ended up losing all. Because there simply was no way to do anything about raids without taking

some

risks with those resources.

Exactly, which is a nonsense argument. You are essentially saying that players were at fault for NOT wanting to share the limited resources already spent on the mode. Reminder once again: release schedules were already far to long to sustain this mode.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Why is it that the niche game modes, which already see far less developer attention, are supposed to give?Oh, i don't know, in order to potentially save themselves, maybe?

Not if less attention had killed the mode even faster, which seems not to enter your thought process. You are assuming that we would have had the same amount of veteran players and raid wings in the same amount of time, which is unrealistic to say the least. Even at a slight increase in release schedule of say 20%, we would have barely seen wing 8 release this year, barely.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The time frame between raid wings was close to 1 year towards the end. Delaying that content even more would have most likely lead to an even faster demise of the player base without additional resources devoted and that is an assumption which can actually be supported in things happening in this game and via basic logic.Yes, it might have. Or it might have helped. Who knows. But not gambling on that (or any other - not there were really any more suggestions, by the way) unknown chance of survival was a

certain

demise.

Exactly, we don't know what would have happend. There are strong arguments to be made that taking this "risk" would have had far worse consequences earlier on. Treating this hypothetical as a guaranteed possible savior is idiotic and dishonest.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:This entire notion that something might have been different or better is just a baseless assumption based on the premise that more players might be interested in raid content or that the assets used could be reused. They could have just as well made single players story missions with the raid bosses and that would have likely been a wiser asset investment than easy mode raids IF asset share was of a major concern.This entire notion that doing nothing and letting Anet inevitably abandon Raids was the best choice is just Raiders trying to placate themselves thinking that they

weren't

the ones responsible and that there was simply nothing to be done. If you want to believe that, please, do so. Raids will not stop being abandoned due to this, though.

They didn't do nothing. They spent as little resources as they saw fit on the content. That's not nothing. Players who would have been in favor of easy mode raids should have made the argument in the past to have more resources devoted, not playing captain hindsight years later, and that was an argument NEVER made by the way. It was always about splitting the few resources to multiple difficulty modes.

[SwankyMutt.9521]

You can check out the link at the bottom of this post (if it hasn't been provided previously). It is off of Snow Crows page and links to Discords for different raid communities that help with training and organization. They also have regular groups for more experienced raiders as well.

I have learned a lot from the NA group (I primarily WvW) with mentor sessions on different professions/roles. These are great places to start for players just starting to enter the Raid scene without having to dredge through LFG.

https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

[Firebeard.1746]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

[Firebeard.1746]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:You're not accounting for these being

UNIQUE

rewards which are not available elsewhere in the game.

IMO they're not. The mistforged variants of WvW and PVP armor have more up to date graphics and coalescence almost makes me gag with its graphic. Also, other MMOs deprecate old content making it easier to grab the unique things, which was my main point. Mythic Antorus is the only place you can earn the corresponding tier set. WoW DOES have a few rewards that go away, but they're clearly communicated and a 100% drop rate so even filthy casuals can just farm some gold and buy a run (a single boss kill actually) and they're done (doing the same thing in GW2 costs WAY more cash in real dollars if we're talking the leggies as you have to pay for 150-300 kills depending on your account and what exactly we're talking about).

updated for accuracy.

Personal preference is not the same as there being no unique rewards.

As I had said in another part of the post you quoted, Anet has specifically stated that they would “depreciate” older raids as time went on.

I think you meant to say "would not" because your previous post was contrarian to me suggesting they should. Do you have a source on this? Do the versions of the armors look that different to you? The heavy ones look VERY similar except for a few pieces. But okay. If that makes you feel special then fine.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

Sure what ever you say. I've heard it all before in the most common reason is: people unwillingness or inability to actually get the knowledge they require from experienced raiders.

As far as damage, sorry but when there is auto attack builds which literally require not pushing of buttons AT ALL to meet damage requirements for the easier wings, I am calling bs. What people most likely lack is the correct build for their skill level and just go to snowcrows and get meta builds (if at all, most just use their run of the mill trash build), then fail at rotations no matter how hard or easy those might be. Well there are tons of non meta builds which are far easier and provide more than enough dps for any raid content (bar maybe some CMs like Dhuum CM).

That would of course require interacting with other players who might have that knowledge or even using simple google or youtube searches.

We have players of ages mid 50+ successfully raid in one of my more casual guilds (and actually on meta classes, not "easy rotation" builds), so I fail to see how age is a huge issue.

[Tyson.5160]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

Sure what ever you say. I've heard it all before in the most common reason is: people unwillingness or inability to actually get the knowledge they require from experienced raiders.

As far as damage, sorry but when there is auto attack builds which literally require not pushing of buttons AT ALL to meet damage requirements for the easier wings, I am calling bs. What people most likely lack is the correct build for their skill level and just go to snowcrows and get meta builds (if at all, most just use their run of the mill trash build), then fail at rotations no matter how hard or easy those might be. Well there are tons of non meta builds which are far easier and provide more than enough dps for any raid content (bar maybe some CMs like Dhuum CM).

That would of course require interacting with other players who might have that knowledge or even using simple google or youtube searches.

So is the solution to this issue just do nothing and let things be?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:No. I am assuming that if something is obviously wrong, and it's clear that the matters don't go in good direction, not doing anything but just continuing on the previous course just because we're sticking to some completely arbitrary prior decision is not the wisest choice.

Original design decisions should never be considered sacrosanct and completely unviolable - especially when it's clear that something somewhere in those original designs is not working right. Sometimes things need to change.

Something is

obviously

wrong? What would that be? The issue with raids stems not with raids themselves but with the direction Anet decided to go with GW2 from the beginning.So, is their design good and they should stick to it (in which case why raids are abandoned), or it isn't (in which case no design decision, including the one you brought up for raids, should be considered inviolable)? Pick one.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:You're not accounting for these being

UNIQUE

rewards which are not available elsewhere in the game.

IMO they're not. The mistforged variants of WvW and PVP armor have more up to date graphics and coalescence almost makes me gag with its graphic. Also, other MMOs deprecate old content making it easier to grab the unique things, which was my main point. Mythic Antorus is the only place you can earn the corresponding tier set. WoW DOES have a few rewards that go away, but they're clearly communicated and a 100% drop rate so even filthy casuals can just farm some gold and buy a run (a single boss kill actually) and they're done (doing the same thing in GW2 costs WAY more cash in real dollars if we're talking the leggies as you have to pay for 150-300 kills depending on your account and what exactly we're talking about).

updated for accuracy.

Personal preference is not the same as there being no unique rewards.

As I had said in another part of the post you quoted, Anet has specifically stated that they would “depreciate” older raids as time went on.

I think you meant to say "would not" because your previous post was contrarian to me suggesting they should. Do you have a source on this? Do the versions of the armors look that different to you? The heavy ones look VERY similar except for a few pieces. But okay. If that makes you feel special then fine.

Yeah, I meant would not. I'll try to find a source but I believe it was a video so it may be more difficult to find. Essentially is was them commenting about how raids in other MMOs became obsolete when new ones were added and they wanted to avoid that. They also brought up the elite maps from GW1 which have remained challenging.

Considering the the legendary armor skins are unique, along with animations, I'd say that they are unique. Also look at all of the skins, minis, and so on that are available from doing raids. Do they exist outside of raids? No. They do not.

EDIT: Found their announcement about raids. At around the 14 minute mark is where he starts talking about not wanting the content to be depreciated over time. It's also stated that raids are intended for those that are looking for a challenge as they're designed to be the most challenging content in the game. This is echoed through their various blogs and one or two dev posts on the forums.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

Sure what ever you say. I've heard it all before in the most common reason is: people unwillingness or inability to actually get the knowledge they require from experienced raiders.

As far as damage, sorry but when there is auto attack builds which literally require not pushing of buttons AT ALL to meet damage requirements for the easier wings, I am calling bs. What people most likely lack is the correct build for their skill level and just go to snowcrows and get meta builds (if at all, most just use their run of the mill trash build), then fail at rotations no matter how hard or easy those might be. Well there are tons of non meta builds which are far easier and provide more than enough dps for any raid content (bar maybe some CMs like Dhuum CM).

That would of course require interacting with other players who might have that knowledge or even using simple google or youtube searches.

So is the solution to this issue just do nothing and let things be?

Depends, which issue are you trying to solve here?

Personal inability to do basic research?Personal inability to perform basic rotations?Personal inability to socialize or interact with other human beings?

There are some basic facts as far as raids and classes in this game go:1.) the actual damage required to succeed at raids, nearly all of them, is negligible compared to what is possible at the top end, middle segment and even most basic builds. That's a fact because we have the damage numbers which are needed to kill bosses in a given time frame and each of the builds outperforms this by a huge factor.

2.) The most common problem for some players is the actual lack of information which build would work for their specific case. If you are slower reaction wise, not good at memorizing rotations or executing them, or w/e, there are builds which would work or at least let you perform adequately in a raid group. Now you won't be breaking any records or running speed clear times, but then again I'd wager 90% of all raider sin this game don't.

3.) There is a scary lack of personal ability for basic research in some cases it seems. It's 2020 about to hit 2021 and some people still seem absolutely incapable of basic google searches, youtube searches or just general searches of anything on the internet. Good luck solving that problem.

So what exactly needs solving here? The answer is not always just dumb things down to the most common denominator.

As far as raids, spvp, wvw or any other struggling content in this game: the direct solution is and always has been more content and developer attention first and people on the forums are trying to attach conditions and personal subjective demands to this. Which is fine, everyone gets to have an opinion, but it doesn't change the simple reality that content keeps players around.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:No. I am assuming that if something is obviously wrong, and it's clear that the matters don't go in good direction, not doing anything but just continuing on the previous course just because we're sticking to some completely arbitrary prior decision is not the wisest choice.

Original design decisions should never be considered sacrosanct and completely unviolable - especially when it's clear that something somewhere in those original designs is not working right. Sometimes things need to change.

Something is

obviously

wrong? What would that be? The issue with raids stems not with raids themselves but with the direction Anet decided to go with GW2 from the beginning.So, is their design good and they should stick to it (in which case why raids are abandoned), or it isn't (in which case no design decision, including the one you brought up for raids, should be considered inviolable)? Pick one.

I'm not going to answer your question because of the logical fallacy which you're using. Create an unbiased and fair question.

EDIT: I'll just fix it for you.

So, is their design good and they should stick to it or it isn't? Pick one.

I find their design to be good.

[Tyson.5160]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

Sure what ever you say. I've heard it all before in the most common reason is: people unwillingness or inability to actually get the knowledge they require from experienced raiders.

As far as damage, sorry but when there is auto attack builds which literally require not pushing of buttons AT ALL to meet damage requirements for the easier wings, I am calling bs. What people most likely lack is the correct build for their skill level and just go to snowcrows and get meta builds (if at all, most just use their run of the mill trash build), then fail at rotations no matter how hard or easy those might be. Well there are tons of non meta builds which are far easier and provide more than enough dps for any raid content (bar maybe some CMs like Dhuum CM).

That would of course require interacting with other players who might have that knowledge or even using simple google or youtube searches.

So is the solution to this issue just do nothing and let things be?

Depends, which issue are you trying to solve here?

Personal inability to do basic research?Personal inability to perform basic rotations?Personal inability to socialize or interact with other human beings?

There are some basic facts as far as raids and classes in this game go:1.) the actual damage required to succeed at raids, nearly all of them, is negligible compared to what is possible at the top end, middle segment and even most basic builds. That's a fact because we have the damage numbers which are needed to kill bosses in a given time frame and each of the builds outperforms this by a huge factor.

2.) The most common problem for some players is the actual lack of information which build would work for their specific case. If you are slower reaction wise, not good at memorizing rotations or executing them, or w/e, there are builds which would work or at least let you perform adequately in a raid group. Now you won't be breaking any records or running speed clear times, but then again I'd wager 90% of all raider sin this game don't.

3.) There is a scary lack of personal ability for basic research in some cases it seems. It's 2020 about to hit 2021 and some people still seem absolutely incapable of basic google searches, youtube searches or just general searches of anything on the internet. Good luck solving that problem.

So what exactly needs solving here? The answer is not always just dumb things down to the most common denominator.

As far as raids, spvp, wvw or any other struggling content in this game: the direct solution is and always has been more content and developer attention first and people on the forums are trying to attach conditions and personal subjective demands to this. Which is fine, everyone gets to have an opinion, but it doesn't change the simple reality that content keeps players around.

The reality is that Anet is not designing raids at the moment, this may change for EoD. It’s seems based on the lack of activity for Raids, that’s it’s not worth the dev time. So I guess the question is, for those who want more Raids, how does Anet develop more Raids, if they don’t feel it’s worth the dev time. Clearly the status quo is not working...

[Firebeard.1746]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:You're not accounting for these being

UNIQUE

rewards which are not available elsewhere in the game.

IMO they're not. The mistforged variants of WvW and PVP armor have more up to date graphics and coalescence almost makes me gag with its graphic. Also, other MMOs deprecate old content making it easier to grab the unique things, which was my main point. Mythic Antorus is the only place you can earn the corresponding tier set. WoW DOES have a few rewards that go away, but they're clearly communicated and a 100% drop rate so even filthy casuals can just farm some gold and buy a run (a single boss kill actually) and they're done (doing the same thing in GW2 costs WAY more cash in real dollars if we're talking the leggies as you have to pay for 150-300 kills depending on your account and what exactly we're talking about).

updated for accuracy.

Personal preference is not the same as there being no unique rewards.

As I had said in another part of the post you quoted, Anet has specifically stated that they would “depreciate” older raids as time went on.

I think you meant to say "would not" because your previous post was contrarian to me suggesting they should. Do you have a source on this? Do the versions of the armors look that different to you? The heavy ones look VERY similar except for a few pieces. But okay. If that makes you feel special then fine.

Yeah, I meant would not. I'll try to find a source but I believe it was a video so it may be more difficult to find. Essentially is was them commenting about how raids in other MMOs became obsolete when new ones were added and they wanted to avoid that. They also brought up the elite maps from GW1 which have remained challenging.

Considering the the legendary armor skins are unique, along with animations, I'd say that they are unique. Also look at all of the skins, minis, and so on that are available from doing raids. Do they exist outside of raids? No. They do not.

EDIT: Found their announcement about raids. At around the 14 minute mark is where he starts talking about not wanting the content to be depreciated over time. It's also stated that raids are intended for those that are looking for a challenge as they're designed to be the most challenging content in the game. This is echoed through their various blogs and one or two dev posts on the forums.

Nice research!

[Firebeard.1746]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

Sure what ever you say. I've heard it all before in the most common reason is: people unwillingness or inability to actually get the knowledge they require from experienced raiders.

As far as damage, sorry but when there is auto attack builds which literally require not pushing of buttons AT ALL to meet damage requirements for the easier wings, I am calling bs. What people most likely lack is the correct build for their skill level and just go to snowcrows and get meta builds (if at all, most just use their run of the mill trash build), then fail at rotations no matter how hard or easy those might be. Well there are tons of non meta builds which are far easier and provide more than enough dps for any raid content (bar maybe some CMs like Dhuum CM).

That would of course require interacting with other players who might have that knowledge or even using simple google or youtube searches.

We have players of ages mid 50+ successfully raid in one of my more casual guilds (and actually on meta classes, not "easy rotation" builds), so I fail to see how age is a huge issue.

It's not BS, that was literally one of the reasons they gave. I can't speak to the amount of research they did, etc, but I can tell you they felt inadequate. I love how you like to control other people's experiences like they're not real. Perhaps they're not doing everything they should. Perhaps the commmunity is judging them too much for bringing a build optimized for their play style, I can't say, but you can't say that people's experiences aren't valid. And there's literally not enough of you to go around talking sense to fix this issue, the numbers of participation and the amount of frustration, here and on the forums is very real, and I'm not just talking about my own experiences. The OP is someone other than me. Other complaints in this thread aren't from me. You may not be wrong that there are solutions, but it's obvious they're not ubiquitously known enough to fix these problems.

[Linken.6345]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

Sure what ever you say. I've heard it all before in the most common reason is: people unwillingness or inability to actually get the knowledge they require from experienced raiders.

As far as damage, sorry but when there is auto attack builds which literally require not pushing of buttons AT ALL to meet damage requirements for the easier wings, I am calling bs. What people most likely lack is the correct build for their skill level and just go to snowcrows and get meta builds (if at all, most just use their run of the mill trash build), then fail at rotations no matter how hard or easy those might be. Well there are tons of non meta builds which are far easier and provide more than enough dps for any raid content (bar maybe some CMs like Dhuum CM).

That would of course require interacting with other players who might have that knowledge or even using simple google or youtube searches.

We have players of ages mid 50+ successfully raid in one of my more casual guilds (and actually on meta classes, not "easy rotation" builds), so I fail to see how age is a huge issue.

It's not BS, that was literally one of the reasons they gave. I can't speak to the amount of research they did, etc, but I can tell you they felt inadequate. I love how you like to control other people's experiences like they're not real. Perhaps they're not doing everything they should. Perhaps the commmunity is judging them too much for bringing a build optimized for their play style, I can't say, but you can't say that people's experiences aren't valid. And there's literally not enough of you to go around talking sense to fix this issue, the numbers of participation and the amount of frustration, here and on the forums is very real, and I'm not just talking about my own experiences. The OP is someone other than me. Other complaints in this thread aren't from me. You may not be wrong that there are solutions, but it's obvious they're not ubiquitously known enough to fix these problems.

Or they dont see it as a problem that needs fixing.

[Tyson.5160]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

Sure what ever you say. I've heard it all before in the most common reason is: people unwillingness or inability to actually get the knowledge they require from experienced raiders.

As far as damage, sorry but when there is auto attack builds which literally require not pushing of buttons AT ALL to meet damage requirements for the easier wings, I am calling bs. What people most likely lack is the correct build for their skill level and just go to snowcrows and get meta builds (if at all, most just use their run of the mill trash build), then fail at rotations no matter how hard or easy those might be. Well there are tons of non meta builds which are far easier and provide more than enough dps for any raid content (bar maybe some CMs like Dhuum CM).

That would of course require interacting with other players who might have that knowledge or even using simple google or youtube searches.

We have players of ages mid 50+ successfully raid in one of my more casual guilds (and actually on meta classes, not "easy rotation" builds), so I fail to see how age is a huge issue.

It's not BS, that was literally one of the reasons they gave. I can't speak to the amount of research they did, etc, but I can tell you they felt inadequate. I love how you like to control other people's experiences like they're not real. Perhaps they're not doing everything they should. Perhaps the commmunity is judging them too much for bringing a build optimized for their play style, I can't say, but you can't say that people's experiences aren't valid. And there's literally not enough of you to go around talking sense to fix this issue, the numbers of participation and the amount of frustration, here and on the forums is very real, and I'm not just talking about my own experiences. The OP is someone other than me. Other complaints in this thread aren't from me. You may not be wrong that there are solutions, but it's obvious they're not ubiquitously known enough to fix these problems.

Or they dont see it as a problem that needs fixing.

And hence they stopped development on Raids...

[Cyninja.2954]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

Sure what ever you say. I've heard it all before in the most common reason is: people unwillingness or inability to actually get the knowledge they require from experienced raiders.

As far as damage, sorry but when there is auto attack builds which literally require not pushing of buttons AT ALL to meet damage requirements for the easier wings, I am calling bs. What people most likely lack is the correct build for their skill level and just go to snowcrows and get meta builds (if at all, most just use their run of the mill trash build), then fail at rotations no matter how hard or easy those might be. Well there are tons of non meta builds which are far easier and provide more than enough dps for any raid content (bar maybe some CMs like Dhuum CM).

That would of course require interacting with other players who might have that knowledge or even using simple google or youtube searches.

We have players of ages mid 50+ successfully raid in one of my more casual guilds (and actually on meta classes, not "easy rotation" builds), so I fail to see how age is a huge issue.

It's not BS, that was literally one of the reasons they gave. I can't speak to the amount of research they did, etc, but I can tell you they felt inadequate. I love how you like to control other people's experiences like they're not real. Perhaps they're not doing everything they should. Perhaps the commmunity is judging them too much for bringing a build optimized for their play style, I can't say, but you can't say that people's experiences aren't valid. And there's literally not enough of you to go around talking sense to fix this issue, the numbers of participation and the amount of frustration, here and on the forums is very real, and I'm not just talking about my own experiences. The OP is someone other than me. Other complaints in this thread aren't from me. You may not be wrong that there are solutions, but it's obvious they're not ubiquitously known enough to fix these problems.

Or they dont see it as a problem that needs fixing.

And hence they stopped development on Raids...

They stopped development of Spvp.

They stopped development of WvW.

They stopped development of dungeons.

They stopped development of fractals, or nearly given their release schedule.

They nearly stopped development of the entire game post living world season 4.

Somehow stopping development on content in this game is a recurring process and is not always tied to player activity or enjoyment of a mode or content type. Maybe, just maybe, the issues lie somewhere else entirely?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players who want to raid in this game are raiding, or at least the vast majority is. If sharing assets with other content is of primary concern, there is a ton of stuff which could be done which would be more beneficial than easy mode raids. Harping on half truths from the past because the overall games population is in decline in order to prove some point or make some type of assumption of how things could have been is just baseless speculation, especially when unfounded in recent game developments.

False. Lots of people in one of my guilds are giving up because they don't feel they can make DPS numbers. One of the people in question is a little older if they've been telling the truth of gchat, I still think it's hilarious that GW2 raiders don't think GW2 raids are more technically challenging that other MMOs. I'd LOVE to just throw ya'll behind normal-ish geared toons into a heroic raid with some flasks and see what you folks do lol. Many people do not raid in this game due to a combination or difficulty and/or community issues (which imo, stem from the difficulty).

EDIT: in fact there's people on this thread communicating that they want to but can't for whatever reason.

Sure what ever you say. I've heard it all before in the most common reason is: people unwillingness or inability to actually get the knowledge they require from experienced raiders.

As far as damage, sorry but when there is auto attack builds which literally require not pushing of buttons AT ALL to meet damage requirements for the easier wings, I am calling bs. What people most likely lack is the correct build for their skill level and just go to snowcrows and get meta builds (if at all, most just use their run of the mill trash build), then fail at rotations no matter how hard or easy those might be. Well there are tons of non meta builds which are far easier and provide more than enough dps for any raid content (bar maybe some CMs like Dhuum CM).

That would of course require interacting with other players who might have that knowledge or even using simple google or youtube searches.

We have players of ages mid 50+ successfully raid in one of my more casual guilds (and actually on meta classes, not "easy rotation" builds), so I fail to see how age is a huge issue.

It's not BS, that was literally one of the reasons they gave. I can't speak to the amount of research they did, etc, but I can tell you they felt inadequate. I love how you like to control other people's experiences like they're not real. Perhaps they're not doing everything they should. Perhaps the commmunity is judging them too much for bringing a build optimized for their play style, I can't say, but you can't say that people's experiences aren't valid. And there's literally not enough of you to go around talking sense to fix this issue, the numbers of participation and the amount of frustration, here and on the forums is very real, and I'm not just talking about my own experiences. The OP is someone other than me. Other complaints in this thread aren't from me. You may not be wrong that there are solutions, but it's obvious they're not ubiquitously known enough to fix these problems.

The forums here also regularly declare the game dead or about to die.

Suffice to say: the predominant opinions on these forums and topics discussed are rarely of actual value to the development of this game.

You'll find constant complaints here, some of which can easily be ignored.

I'm not invalidating players experience, that would not even be possible given experience is subjective. I'm saying that there is a level of ineptitude which does not need be catered to balance wise.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:I'm not going to answer your question because of the logical fallacy which you're using. Create an unbiased and fair question.

EDIT: I'll just fix it for you.

So, is their design good and they should stick to it or it isn't? Pick one.

I find their design to be good.

And yet you've just said that:

The issue with raids stems not with raids themselves but with the direction Anet decided to go with GW2 from the beginning.That is also part of the design.

If everything was right with the design, Raids would not end up being abandoned. And yet they did end up that way. So yeah, in that way my question was a leading one. Or rather a rhetorical one, because the history already answered it.

The truth is, that the issue was with the Raids themselves - or, to be more specific, with the fact that as they were implemented, they were not a good match with the rest of the game. So, either the issue was with them being implemented in a way that was wrong for GW2, or with the fact that they were implemented at all. And you even indirectly acknowledge that in that last quote.

Sure, you may say (like Cyninja) that the issue was more with general management, not specifically with Raids, but that still brings us to Anet making some bad design decisions. If they can make a bad decision in one place, they can make it in another - so, no design decision they made in the past should be treated as unchangeable, because obviously at least some of them were wrong. At best, we might say that some won't be changed due to practical reasons (lack of resources), but saying that something should stay that way because they once decided so is just tantamount to saying that the game cannot be improved in any way. And, in this specific case, is the same as saying that Raids were simply destined to fail from the beginning, that nothing can be changed about it, and that this is (as you said) a "good design".