Scourge in high fractals

[Demented Yak.6105]

Teamed up with two scourges for a daily 99 fractal pug today. Everyone was perfect. Nobody died. I didn't look particularly closely at how they did it but they did it.

[Lily.1935]

The biggest aggravation for scourge in fractals for me is how barrier is impacted so heavily by agony. Beyond that I do fine. But I also know how to survive on glass builds with ele, mesmer, and engineer in fractals so it hasn't been a problem for me. Does that mean barrier is the only problem for us? Of course not! But we are usable even if it can feel dubious at times.

[Maunzi.3764]

I want one of the devolopers to play as scourge in high fractals and tell me how you will survive without the death shroud we used to have as reaper and with the recent nerf you gave us by the cds you increase

I do that fine? This is a non issue. The only issue scourge has is terrible support and terrible damage, when compared to other support or DPS classes that are played well.Survivability is fine, not as good as a Chrono, Thief, Reaper or Druid, of course, but good enough for any fractal.

[LadyKitty.6120]

Earlier today Kitty went and tested minstrel's/magi's scourge (in other words, the infamous healerscourge) in fractal dailies, we also had 2 DPS scourges, chrono and DH. Went quuuuite nicely with support scourge's insane might output and all the barriers it could throw (ofc timed before hits). Squad was slightly wondering how they had perma-barrier. ^^

E: in other words, bosses died very quick and nobody died (only went under 50% if they ate mechanics for lunch).

[Todd.6573]

These posts are so unproductive.Yes, running a glassy spec on a squishy class (Ele, Scourge, Thief) will mean you have a higher chance of dying if and when you mess up. Like in any other game.If you want to play these classes in full glass gear then you need to learn mechanics and you need to learn how to dodge and where to position yourself.It really is that simple.

You dont need more survivability baseline, you need to learn what to do.If you can't that's fine, get some tanky gear, change build or try a different more forgiving class.

All that being said, there are definitely issues with certain specs at the moment, but definitely nothing related to the survivability in fractals.

[Maunzi.3764]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:support scourge's insane might output

Correction: Support scourge has no "insane" might output - it's actually pitiful. You had a lot of might because you had 3 scourges, all of which generate plenty of might as part of their regular rotation. Might refreshes other might stacks, so it's easy to keep up 25. This even works with multiple reapers.

If you can't that's fine, get some tanky gear, change build or try a different more forgiving class.

Indeed. There's the possibility to use parasitic contagnion and blood, for less DPS, but higher survivability, for example. Just a trait switch.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Maunzi.3764 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:support scourge's insane might output

Correction: Support scourge has no "insane" might output - it's actually pitiful. You had a lot of might because you had 3 scourges, all of which generate plenty of might as part of their regular rotation. Might refreshes other might stacks, so it's easy to keep up 25. This even works with multiple reapers.

If you can't that's fine, get some tanky gear, change build or try a different more forgiving class.

Indeed. There's the possibility to use parasitic contagnion and blood, for less DPS, but higher survivability, for example. Just a trait switch.

Have you actually tested scourge's might output with decent boon duration?

[Subli.8217]

no matter how much might scourge can generate, it will always be bad and not usable because of the radius. PS war has 600 radius. Might blasts have 360 radius.shades are 180 radius, affect 3 people. BiP is 240 radius. only dessicate is 300 radius and thats still low.

[Ojimaru.8970]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:no matter how much might scourge can generate, it will always be bad and not usable because of the radius. PS war has 600 radius. Might blasts have 360 radius.shades are 180 radius, affect 3 people. BiP is 240 radius. only dessicate is 300 radius and thats still low.

Radius doesn't really matter, regardless if it's 240 or 600. People should be within 120-240 units from the boss in the first place, not 1,500.

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:support scourge's insane might output

Correction: Support scourge has no "insane" might output - it's actually pitiful. You had a lot of might because you had 3 scourges, all of which generate plenty of might as part of their regular rotation. Might refreshes other might stacks, so it's easy to keep up 25. This even works with multiple reapers.

If you can't that's fine, get some tanky gear, change build or try a different more forgiving class.

Indeed. There's the possibility to use parasitic contagnion and blood, for less DPS, but higher survivability, for example. Just a trait switch.

Have you actually tested scourge's might output with decent boon duration?

Unfortunately, I have. I've taken a 100% boon duration Scourge through 2 sets of Daily T4 Fractals with varying team compositions. What I've found is that Scourge Might stacking happens in bursts, usually reliant on Oppressive Collapse (Torch 5), Alacrity, and a variety of conditions on the enemy. If your teammates aren't able to keep conditions rolling, your Might stacking suffers. If you don't have Alacrity, you'll be struggling to even reach 50+ Might/sec. Since Abrasive Gift and Fell Beacon share the same tier, you would likely favor the latter, which means that your Might stacks will fall off a cliff periodically.

The fact of the matter is, unlike Warrior or even Tempest, Scourge's Might stacking is reliant on teammates. This may be less of an issue in raids, but in 5-player Fractals, you would have to tune your composition to fit the Scourge, where no other profession needs to.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:no matter how much might scourge can generate, it will always be bad and not usable because of the radius. PS war has 600 radius. Might blasts have 360 radius.shades are 180 radius, affect 3 people. BiP is 240 radius. only dessicate is 300 radius and thats still low.

Except that if you're playing healer/support scourge in fractals, you obviously use Sand Savant instead of Demonic Lore, thus Sand Shades and their skills are extended to 300 range. If the squad needs to move a ton and be separated most of the fight, then yush, such build is quite useless.

Though, since efficiency seems to be a popular word these days, don't people usually try to stick somewhat together for better boon uptime? ('cause stacking happens to be a thing) Not to mention that the squad can actually spend more time in melee-range by facetanking some of the not-that-dangerous mechanics with scourge's barriers, just like with a block-sharing healer-guard.

[Subli.8217]

why would anyone in their right mind run "healer/support" scourge? or anything healer related anyway. people weren't running healing trash in 2012-2015 and back then mobs in fotm50 were hitting way harder because of different scaling. i can't with how this community downgraded in their skill since HoT.

[Lady Deedra.3126]

I run full ascended trailblazers armor with vipers trinkets and have no issues with T4's on scourge.

[TexZero.7910]

@Lady Deedra.3126 said:I run full ascended trailblazers armor with vipers trinkets and have no issues with T4's on scourge.

Not trying to be rude, but anyone can stack toughness on armor and have no issues, this information doesn't actually help someone improve.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:why would anyone in their right mind run "healer/support" scourge? or anything healer related anyway. people weren't running healing trash in 2012-2015 and back then mobs in fotm50 were hitting way harder because of different scaling. i can't with how this community downgraded in their skill since HoT.

There is a lot of reasons for this.

• 1: A lot of the fractals have had small updates that make taking chip damage more common. Social Awkwardness is the common one, but there are frequent attacks flying about that don't get stopped by other means.
• 2: A lot of players have come to expect healers. And as such, they no longer pack the defensive skills they once did. Instead, they pack only offensive skills, then demand a healer heal for them. You can blame raids for this.
• 3: There is still a lot of bad builds, bad tactics, and bad players. In premades this isn't a problem, but pugging it is.
• 4: The later fractals are much harder, as are some of the redesigns. Though possible to do without healers, it is really inconsistent and generally not worth the effort to attempt a challenge mote without one.
• 5: As new elite specializations are introduced into the game, they tend to be focused on new mechanics. As a side effect, they lack the defensive utilities that previous specializations have. With this new release alone, there is a glorious absence of good blinds, good reflects, good stuns, or even good protection. Since players will flock to the shiny new specialization, this results in things like Necros no longer having GS 4 or well of darkness, Thieves no longer having smokescreen or black powder, engineers no longer having bulwark gyro or elixir U, etc.and so on. When I run holo I frequently swap out Laser Disk for Hard Light Arena, simply because I end up on a team that has no group fury or protection.
• 6: The meta has shifted from being power focused to condi focused. As high damaging as condis are, the fact remains that they take awhile to ramp up. This gives anything less than a champion mob more time to do damage than they would previously.
• 7: as the new pack is launched, there are a lot of new and returning old players who are unaware of meta builds and choices. The overall skill pool in the game decreases with each launch, and as such there is more lifting needed on behalf of the skilled players. Believe me, I learned I can solo CM00 Ensolyss the other day on my healing rev. The hard way.
• 8: Healers are more effective than ever. This change came with the release of HoT, to emphasize a healer's role in raids. Originally a healer was dead weight, but now they are really effective at carrying. This circles around and creates reason 2.

All of these reasons working together is what causes players to run and demand healers.

[Zenith.7301]

Players run healers because it's a buffer for lack of coordination in PuGs. The amount of damage you eat from social awkwardness when allies walk into you during a fight is not trivial.

No fractal needs healers. Done plenty without one. 100 cm can be pretty simple by running a ps warrior and a couple of dragonhunters and mirage.

But you can run the odds of wasting 30 minutes or not finishing a 100 cm against adding like 5 minutes max by bringing a healer and clearinf 100% of the time, and the choice for a PUG becomes obvious.

I'd say especially in 99cm completion without a healer is far from realistic for the average pug, especially on classes that don't have a wealth of CC and blocks.

Take Ensolyss. 1 dodge to avoid the suck in, one dodge to avoid his slam on you if he chooses to center on you, and then you're empty on dodges if the add smash spawns around you. Plus his heavy melee with 5 bleed stacks.

On a class like mesmer with tons of active defense or a guardian it is fairly manageable. On classes with less, it's just painful.

I think people who say healers are not necessary have gotten way too used to chronos and guardians distorting/blocking the threats to them.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

• 6: The meta has shifted from being power focused to condi focused. As high damaging as condis are, the fact remains that they take awhile to ramp up. This gives anything less than a champion mob more time to do damage than they would previously.Power is still king in fractals. Weaver with tempest defense just bursts through everything.

[Osu.6307]

@Zenith.7301 said:I don't know what to say.....this post is so silly.

Drop malicious scepter, select parasitic contagion trait with the minion heal, and you're virtually immortal unless you eat one shot mechanics.

You're gaining about 1k health or more per second just by grabbing parasitic contagion and the healing minion if you want the training wheels.

Otherwise you can just use the healing minion and still be fine since unlike the other necro specs, no shroud is stopping the minion from healing you up.

This! Just run parasitic contagion and healing minion most of the time just as insurance. Who cares if your dps is 18k rather than 20k. I'd rather the fractal take an extra minute due to minor dps loss than risk a wipe because everyone runs full glass.

[Mikeskies.1536]

@Maunzi.3764 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:support scourge's insane might output

Correction: Support scourge has no "insane" might output - it's actually pitiful. You had a lot of might because you had 3 scourges, all of which generate plenty of might as part of their regular rotation. Might refreshes other might stacks, so it's easy to keep up 25. This even works with multiple reapers.

If you can't that's fine, get some tanky gear, change build or try a different more forgiving class.

Indeed. There's the possibility to use parasitic contagnion and blood, for less DPS, but higher survivability, for example. Just a trait switch.

Support Scourge in Harrier's gear outputs permanent 25 might, protection, and provides sufficient healing and barrier.

DPS Scourge is not that far behind other DPS classes and excels on any fight with multiple targets because of Epidemic.

[Deadvillager.1956]

@Mikeskies.1536 said:Support Scourge in Harrier's gear outputs permanent 25 might, protection, and provides sufficient healing and barrier.DPS Scourge is not that far behind other DPS classes and excels on any fight with multiple targets because of Epidemic.

The DPS part is what i experienced as well. Being a cDPS spec that trades "highest" boss dps for good condi cleave is a situation i am willing to accept. Scourge does not have to be best in everything. As for might gen, I believe the problem was that the might share area was too small to be competitive. Have you tried if your realistic might stacks are still above 20 or will scattering groups ssuffer more might loss than with other options?

[Mikeskies.1536]

@Deadvillager.1956 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:Support Scourge in Harrier's gear outputs permanent 25 might, protection, and provides sufficient healing and barrier.DPS Scourge is not that far behind other DPS classes and excels on any fight with multiple targets because of Epidemic.

The DPS part is what i experienced as well. Being a cDPS spec that trades "highest" boss dps for good condi cleave is a situation i am willing to accept. Scourge does not have to be best in everything. As for might gen, I believe the problem was that the might share area was too small to be competitive. Have you tried if your realistic might stacks are still above 20 or will scattering groups ssuffer more might loss than with other options?

I've only played with a Support Scourge who is a friend. As long as everyone is in melee range around the boss (which they should be), Might is at 25 stacks. Scattering groups will suffer might loss just like they will suffer Quickness and Alacrity loss. If you are not standing with your support, you will not receive the bonuses.

[Amineo.8951]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

• 6: The meta has shifted from being power focused to condi focused. As high damaging as condis are, the fact remains that they take awhile to ramp up. This gives anything less than a champion mob more time to do damage than they would previously.Power is still king in fractals. Weaver with tempest defense just bursts through everything.

Yeah Sword/Dagger Weaver is ridiculous, everything dies extremely fast from the burst output.

[ugrakarma.9416]

its weird, cuz necro/reaper/scourge was always my class for "impossible tasks" because of minions and other mechanics. a full viper scourge has insane condi spam.

[Sicay.3672]

Ive been running full viper scourge dps in t4 (without parasitic contagion) and never had any issues so far. Maybe it helps that necro is not my first class. Ive mostly played wari, thief and some chrono in frac b4. Used to play ele as well but it was a while ago. Compared to many other classes necro is very tank and survivable and has one of the larges healthpools in the game even without a second healthbar, just do mechanics and dodge when it is needed. The fractal omnipotion is also a great help.

[Daddicus.6128]

@"Zenith.7301" said:I don't know what to say.....this post is so silly.

Drop malicious scepter, select parasitic contagion trait with the minion heal, and you're virtually immortal unless you eat one shot mechanics.

You're gaining about 1k health or more per second just by grabbing parasitic contagion and the healing minion if you want the training wheels.

Otherwise you can just use the healing minion and still be fine since unlike the other necro specs, no shroud is stopping the minion from healing you up.

What do you mean by "malicious scepter" and by "minion heal"? Those are terms I haven't seen before.

Thank you!

[Skotlex.7580]

What do you mean by "malicious scepter" and by "minion heal"? Those are terms I haven't seen before.

Thank you!

Malicious sceptre is a trait, that is on the same tier as parasitic contagion.

Minion heal is the healing skill (6) which summons a blood fiend (the one that heals you each time it attacks)