Renegade as DPS - Hopeless?

[Zodi.8932]

So I came back to the game after a 2 year break mostly because I love Rev and I saw that it was now in the meta again for PvE and PvP. I already had a full legendary set and i love to be DPS so i went for a Viper condi build. This build is supposedly in the meta for raids.

However I have been running fractals a lot recently and not had many problems but today a guy was running a DPS meter and being quite picky about it. He was telling me my DPS was poor. So on then next boss I went all out, I know my rotation and I performed it as best as I could. I ended up reaching 19k DPS whilst a holosmith in our group hit 30k DPS and a Scourge who was mostly in charge of healing ended up hitting 23k.

For me I don't know what more I could have done to get my DPS up. Is Rev now too poor a DPS and simply just an alac support for groups?

[ollbirtan.2915]

Raid meta is different from FOTM meta. You generally never run condi in FOTM, unless you play a condi quickness FB. For renegade, play Diviner alacrigate and you are gucci.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Zodi.8932 said:So I came back to the game after a 2 year break mostly because I love Rev and I saw that it was now in the meta again for PvE and PvP. I already had a full legendary set and i love to be DPS so i went for a Viper condi build. This build is supposedly in the meta for raids.

However I have been running fractals a lot recently and not had many problems but today a guy was running a DPS meter and being quite picky about it. He was telling me my DPS was poor. So on then next boss I went all out, I know my rotation and I performed it as best as I could. I ended up reaching 19k DPS whilst a holosmith in our group hit 30k DPS and a Scourge who was mostly in charge of healing ended up hitting 23k.

No Scourge on a support build is hitting 23k.Install Arc yourself.Something super fishy about this one.

Post your build?

[Infusion.7149]

Don't run condi renegade in fractals unless you are doing 100CM. The torment won't get the added damage ticks and it takes too long to ramp up (the damage split is 32% torment, 23% burn, 21% bleed, 16% power, 8% poison for the meta build). The only condi build worth using in normal fractals is condi firebrand.

Power renegade can achieve roughly 34K benchmark and hybrid plaguedoctor scourge (not full heal scourge) can achieve around 23K.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Zodi.8932 said:So I came back to the game after a 2 year break mostly because I love Rev and I saw that it was now in the meta again for PvE and PvP. I already had a full legendary set and i love to be DPS so i went for a Viper condi build. This build is supposedly in the meta for raids.

However I have been running fractals a lot recently and not had many problems but today a guy was running a DPS meter and being quite picky about it. He was telling me my DPS was poor. So on then next boss I went all out, I know my rotation and I performed it as best as I could. I ended up reaching 19k DPS whilst a holosmith in our group hit 30k DPS and a Scourge who was mostly in charge of healing ended up hitting 23k.

For me I don't know what more I could have done to get my DPS up. Is Rev now too poor a DPS and simply just an alac support for groups?

Condi Ren isn’t great for most fractals if the group is really good. It performs better the worse the group dps is though (and can carry lower tier groups accordingly), because cRen has one of the longest condi ramp times and therefore needs more time to get going.

There are a few bosses it does well on though in above average groups.100CMArtsaarivEnsolyssA few regular T4 bosses like Volcanic, Thaumanova, and others.

However, again, anything higher than above average (I know that’s somewhat vague, but it’s hard to quantify precisely, you get a feel for it after doing fractals enough) and you’d be better served by Power Herald or Power Renegade on all fights if you want to play Rev as a DPS. You also want to play one of these two even on most other unmentioned fights like Siax, etc. in regular above average groups, since Condi Ren will never have the ramp time on those fights for above average groups. And again, mediocre or worse groups make Condi Ren a good choice on most encounters as well.

My advice is to learn a power variant of Rev in addition to your cRen set so that you can further optimize for each boss. Rev does struggle with power dps more than other classes, so make sure to optimize your power builds and rotations as well to get as much benefit from it as possible.

Also if you want to be accepted in all groups anytime you want to learn Alacrigade as well. It’s one of the most important roles and can be challenging due to the expected mechanics it deals with, but it’s very rewarding to play and can carry in its own ways.

For me personally In fractals I choose which build I’m playing per encounter and also depending on how good my group is, so having options is beneficial.

[lare.5129]

condi rev? you a welcome ofc. why not.

[Antycypator.9874]

Try using Mace 2 - Razorclaw's Rage - Icerazor's Ire - (legend/weapon swap) - Citadel Bombardment - Embrance the darkness - SB 2- 4- 3.This should burst with condi, but I think fractals fights with experienced players can be too short for you to reach high damage.

[Abelisk.5148]

I did some testing and I found Corruption-Invocation-Renegade to be the best specs for condi DPS. That is, Corruption top-bottom-top, Invocation middle-bottom-middle or middle-middle-middle if your team has enough Might generation, and Renegade middle-middle-middle (DPS variant) or middle-middle-bottom (Alacrity variant). I also prefer to take the Alacrity GM trait so that you help your team out more.

On a stationary golem, with 25 vuln stacks, full might, perma quickness/alacrity and buffs with Tuning Icicle and Koi Cake, I was able to do >30k DPS with the DPS trait, and ~28k DPS with the Alacrity GM trait. In more realistic scenarios that is down a bit, and in Fractals maybe even lower with immune phases. That being said Renegade comes with Razorclaw's Rage and Alacrity which helps offset some of the DPS lost. Note that I don't have stat infusions and am missing 4 pieces of ascended Viper's equipment. My rotation is also fairly unoptimized but workable, and I did not use many of the profession-specific enhancements.

[Atille.5047]

No Scourge on a support build is hitting 23k.Install Arc yourself.Something super fishy about this one.

Post your build?

Plaguedoctor HSC is capable of reaching that, especially in FOTM.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@Zodi.8932 said:So I came back to the game after a 2 year break mostly because I love Rev and I saw that it was now in the meta again for PvE and PvP. I already had a full legendary set and i love to be DPS so i went for a Viper condi build. This build is supposedly in the meta for raids.

However I have been running fractals a lot recently and not had many problems but today a guy was running a DPS meter and being quite picky about it. He was telling me my DPS was poor. So on then next boss I went all out, I know my rotation and I performed it as best as I could. I ended up reaching 19k DPS whilst a holosmith in our group hit 30k DPS and a Scourge who was mostly in charge of healing ended up hitting 23k.

For me I don't know what more I could have done to get my DPS up. Is Rev now too poor a DPS and simply just an alac support for groups?

First, full supports only get about 1-5k DPS even if they have Power(Harrier) or Condition Damage(Plaguedoctor), etc. This is because they can't focus on damage skills, traits or rotation when trying to support allies, and that's not their purpose anyway.

Expect to see sub-1k DPS on players running Giver's, Minstrel's, and such. (though, mostly in WvW, not PvE).

So that player is flat out lying about it, or the Scourge wasn't actually a support main.

Second, condi builds tend to be better in weaker groups, and less efficient in stronger groups. Its something that performs very well for content like dungeons, low-man Fractals such as doing T3/T4 with only a few players, open-world, story, etc.

But I wouldn't run Viper, Renegade is mostly about Ferocity so I'd run Grieving and focus primarily on Ferocity buffs. You can still do good damage with conditions without going all-in on them because they have high base damages, especially on Burning (Mace & Shortbow).

For VIper you're mostly looking for Core Rev or Herald/Mallyx with Rune of Tormenting.

The current meta build for Renegades is Alacren, which is any Concentration set (usually Diviner's), to achieve 90%+ Boon Duration required to get 100% Alacrity uptime when taking the final trait from Renegade tree that extends the base duration.

Just be careful, full Diviner's can overstack past 100% with Mobility potions and 150 AR, so mix it with some other stats. (If you're prone to getting downed, throwing in some Wanderer's is always a good choice).

And one last bit of advice, stop worrying so much about DPS and just play the game.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Zodi.8932" said:So I came back to the game after a 2 year break mostly because I love Rev and I saw that it was now in the meta again for PvE and PvP. I already had a full legendary set and i love to be DPS so i went for a Viper condi build. This build is supposedly in the meta for raids.

However I have been running fractals a lot recently and not had many problems but today a guy was running a DPS meter and being quite picky about it. He was telling me my DPS was poor. So on then next boss I went all out, I know my rotation and I performed it as best as I could. I ended up reaching 19k DPS whilst a holosmith in our group hit 30k DPS and a Scourge who was mostly in charge of healing ended up hitting 23k.

But I wouldn't run Viper, Renegade is mostly about Ferocity so I'd run Grieving and focus primarily on Ferocity buffs. You can still do good damage with conditions without going all-in on them because they have high base damages, especially on Burning (Mace & Shortbow).

This is a fairly inaccurate statement that could be misleading for newer players of Renegade. Renegade does have some Hybrid-ish capabilities, but Renegade is definitely NOT mostly about Ferocity.

Compare what Renegade offers for Power builds v.s. what it offers for condi builds:

Power (Ferocity):Lasting Legacy (Kalla's Fervor): +250 FerocityBrutal Momentum: +33% Crit Chance when endurance is fullIcerazor's IreCitadel Bombardment (Performs about equally on full power builds v.s. condi builds)

Condi:Lasting Legacy (Kalla's Fervor): +15% Condi DamageBlood Fury: Bleeding Duration +25%Heartpiercer: Bleeding Damage Increase +25%Shortbow skills 1 through 4 (yes Shortbow is a primarily condi weapon despite its okay Hybrid damage; it gets its highest dps output through viper gear and condi duration)Razorclaw's RageCitadel Bombardment

So Renegade offers 6 improvements for condi builds (9 if you count each shortbow skill individually) while it offers only 4 improvements for power builds. Ren provides two modifiers that directly impact Crit while it offers three modifiers for condi damage. It's clear from this analysis that while yes, it offers increased Ferocity, it is not "mostly about Ferocity."

As for Grieving this is a really bad suggestion for anyone playing condi rev. Grieving will pull ahead in damage for a few seconds, but is quickly overtaken by Viper. Also you need to crit cap with Grieving and that requires build changes that reduce your access to damage sigils/Food, trait changes, external buffs from warrior/ranger, and/or not dodging to make the most use of Brutal Momentum.

One of the biggest issues with making Grieving work is really Brutal Momentum. Not dodging to keep the 33% Crit Chance increase isn't feasible in most groups. As soon as you dodge you lose that 33% crit until you get your endurance back (and that's IF you get your endurance back), meaning you're losing a ton of the extra benefits of having higher Ferocity through Grieving gear. Every time you don't crit is Ferocity stats being wasted. As mentioned above, you can crit cap with a combination of runes/sigils/food/trait changes/external buffs, but that requires you to lose a bunch of damage runes/sigils/etc, reducing overall dps

Grieving falls short of Viper quickly, so any builds that are condi focused should run Viper. If the issue is needing to fit more damage into a shorter period of time, then Berserker Power Ren/Herald should be played instead, since it's far stronger than Viper and Grieving for burst. As you said in part of your above post, condi really only should be played on certain fights and/or with lower damage groups.

For VIper you're mostly looking for Core Rev or Herald/Mallyx with Rune of Tormenting.

Since the OP is posting about increasing his DPS, this is a bad suggestion. Viper Core Rev and Viper Herald are all significantly weaker than Viper Ren. All of them lack Shortbow and have no viable swap weapon for increased DPS. Mace/Axe by itself is NOT as strong as Shortbow + Mace/Axe. In fact, Shortbow by itself is about the same dps as Mace/Axe anyway now that Sevenshot hits all shots on a target. In addition they lack the Condi modifiers Renegade provides, only offering increased power damage instead. So for a condi core or herald build you end up with two traitlines that boost condi damage (and invocation barely counts in this regard) as opposed to three traitlines with Renegade.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy Viper Herald in PvE from time to time, but I would never take it to fractals or raids since it's just vastly outclassed by Ren for raw damage.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

But I wouldn't run Viper, Renegade is mostly about Ferocity so I'd run Grieving and focus primarily on Ferocity buffs. You can still do good damage with conditions without going all-in on them because they have high base damages, especially on Burning (Mace & Shortbow).

Thats a terrible advice. Every condi build tries to max condi duration. grieving only works if you rely on a single condition and can use runes to cap like cfb.For VIper you're mostly looking for Core Rev or Herald/Mallyx with Rune of Tormenting.

Never bring this into instanced pve. Thats like a 30% dps handycap.The current meta build for Renegades is Alacren, which is any Concentration set (usually Diviner's), to achieve 90%+ Boon Duration required to get 100% Alacrity uptime when taking the final trait from Renegade tree that extends the base duration.

Raid meta has also condi viper ren. Doesnt really work outside of 100cm in fractals though. You also only need 78% BD for perma alacrity. Most run around with 80-85% to have some breathing room.Just be careful, full Diviner's can overstack past 100% with Mobility potions and 150 AR, so mix it with some other stats. (If you're prone to getting downed, throwing in some Wanderer's is always a good choice).

Alac ren is the tankiest build in the game with all the lifesteal it has. Why would you add some useless thoughness/vitality on top of it? Those stats are not helping your group.