Necro Lichform has got to go!

[Axl.8924]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Shroud.2307 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Shroud.2307 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Am I correct that u believe its ok for a transform skill to have 5k+ auto's. If this is true than u are also not representative. Only a necro main would believe its ok.... oh wait. If any class had 5+k autos during a transform skill regardless of class or any other skills within that transform skill most players would consider that absurd except of course those who use that class and skill, just saying.I'm sure if warrior did 6 or 7k auto attacks during rampage u urself would be stating their autos need nerfed.

Bruh, you don't even need to elite transform to do 10 - 15k crits with Soulbeast. Maul, Worldly Impact, Merged Porcine Maul, "Sic 'Em!" Rapid Fire, Winter's Bite... Various attacks that two shot most builds. Same could be said of DH with its 10k+ Trap ticks or True Shot.

I've said more than once that I agree with people who say Lich Form damage is too high. But I also don't think it needs to be nerfed because the duration already has been and ANet clearly sees it the same way that I do-

offense is Necro's ( and Lichs' ) defense.

It needs to do damage that nothing else can trade with or it's useless. If anything can facetank Lich or pop a reflect the Necro will near instantly leave the transformation because it's not worth it for the Necro to trade. Same reason anything that can trade with a Reaper pretty well hard counters it.

Drop Lich autos to 2k and suddenly no one's going to use it because literally everything in the game would be able to CC it to death or facetank the autos and force the Necro out of the transformation in 2seconds.

Kite the kitten thing, or if you have the option to do it use some reflects, Blinds, a Block, etc.I understand a good Necro will wait/bait out those things, but you can make this argument about

anything.

Expect that they are going to Lich on you and have a defensive option ready to deal with it. You literally only have to LOS for

TEN SECONDS

if you don't have any cooldowns left, against something that moves at walking pace.

The only reason I aggressively defend this as a Necro main isn't because I don't want to lose "OP" thing. It's because I know ANet is unlikely to give Lich Form anything in return if they nerf the damage, and it will be useless afterward.If they increased the duration to 20seconds and reduced the recharge on all Lich Form skills, but nerfed the damage, okay. I might be happy with that. Otherwise, no, you can't gut the damage and give it nothing back because it is already so easy to counter and offers little else outside of that damage.

Going Lich is like saying

"if you don't get away from me you'll die. If I don't make you run, I die."

Not,

"LOL, I win."

????? Not talking about possible bursts classes can do im talking about auto's which are spamnable, if ranger was able to pop a skill than spam lb or gs auto attacks for 5k+ damage ideas that whatever allowed them to do so would be grossly op as well.

OWP + GS autos is pretty kitten near 5k autos. Which is more of a fair comparison given it's an elite.

Necros can defend themselves, problem is that when you combine classes like soulbeast which use worldly strike and mobilitty and sustain it becomes a unfair fight.

I honestly don't want nec to be destroyed in pvp as well, but it wouldn't be right if we play favoritisms either.

Maybe they could try lowering the cd as mentioned and increasing duration while in the form or something after nerfing the dmg or replacing it as others have said.

Prob better for the game too, since i really don't like lich form.> @Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shroud.2307 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Am I correct that u believe its ok for a transform skill to have 5k+ auto's. If this is true than u are also not representative. Only a necro main would believe its ok.... oh wait. If any class had 5+k autos during a transform skill regardless of class or any other skills within that transform skill most players would consider that absurd except of course those who use that class and skill, just saying.I'm sure if warrior did 6 or 7k auto attacks during rampage u urself would be stating their autos need nerfed.

Bruh, you don't even need to elite transform to do 10 - 15k crits with Soulbeast. Maul, Worldly Impact, Merged Porcine Maul, "Sic 'Em!" Rapid Fire, Winter's Bite... Various attacks that two shot most builds. Same could be said of DH with its 10k+ Trap ticks or True Shot.

I've said more than once that I agree with people who say Lich Form damage is too high. But I also don't think it needs to be nerfed because the duration already has been and ANet clearly sees it the same way that I do-

offense is Necro's ( and Lichs' ) defense.

It needs to do damage that nothing else can trade with or it's useless. If anything can facetank Lich or pop a reflect the Necro will near instantly leave the transformation because it's not worth it for the Necro to trade. Same reason anything that can trade with a Reaper pretty well hard counters it.

Drop Lich autos to 2k and suddenly no one's going to use it because literally everything in the game would be able to CC it to death or facetank the autos and force the Necro out of the transformation in 2seconds.

Kite the kitten thing, or if you have the option to do it use some reflects, Blinds, a Block, etc.I understand a good Necro will wait/bait out those things, but you can make this argument about

anything.

Expect that they are going to Lich on you and have a defensive option ready to deal with it. You literally only have to LOS for

TEN SECONDS

if you don't have any cooldowns left, against something that moves at walking pace.

The only reason I aggressively defend this as a Necro main isn't because I don't want to lose "OP" thing. It's because I know ANet is unlikely to give Lich Form anything in return if they nerf the damage, and it will be useless afterward.If they increased the duration to 20seconds and reduced the recharge on all Lich Form skills, but nerfed the damage, okay. I might be happy with that. Otherwise, no, you can't gut the damage and give it nothing back because it is already so easy to counter and offers little else outside of that damage.

Going Lich is like saying

"if you don't get away from me you'll die. If I don't make you run, I die."

Not,

"LOL, I win."

ah yes, the 10k-15k winters bites. my favourite.most of the listed skills cant hit those numbers, the fact that you landed 10k maul once while at 12 might from warrior against light target with 25vulnerability doesnt mean every maul lands for 10k. meanwhile reaper booms reliably 7k+ on every shot100% crit chance, just look at trevor's video. 4,5k dmg every time against target with protection. 0 might, 0 vulnerability, no outside buffs/debuffs, no chill nothing.just bam bam bam bam bam bam.Nobody is asking for 80% dmg nerfs, and heck. If lich form was the only thing that gets nerfed things would get worse, but there simply should no be 2.3 coof auto-attacks in the game.

The reason people try to prevent changes, is for fear it gets smiter booned with nother in return, and when ANET nerfs things they don't always go back and it always always takes a long LOONG time to fix things.

Smiter booning reaper dmg and lich will just make every nec fan angry and quit and cause more losses of subs and playerbase and create another circle jerk of nerfs that will result in more degradation of the game, somewhat like some circle jerk nerfs that happened to ele that prob shouldn't have.

Should have meteor been nerfed? maybe, but i think it shold be really solid in AOE for pve and sueful for WVW in my opinion. Heck let tempest or core take over AOE jobs and let weave take single target and BAAM you got 1 for each raid type in pve and useful for spvp and WVW.

Because seeing things being smiter booned out of existence is what this community always wants when it comes to other professions but their own and when is's their profession turn to get smither booned..that's when all the L2P arguments start, it'd be great if this community would actually talk about balance without being charged with emotion :"No I hate to lose to XX, I want it deleted so I don't lose anymore"

Should I symphatize with necros at this point?...Different community and different game I would but....

not too long ago necros were up in arms to get tornado removed, nerfed because...

The necro community is not any better than the rest when it comes to whine for nerfs on others, do you know how many times I got killed while using tornado and being bombarded with condis?...so the whole argument of necros about Lich Form really falls flat

Destroying classes is the wrong way to go and i've defended thief before i have also defended mes and ranger. Heck i called out that LB2 was not overpowered because it can be avoided. Lich can be avoided and kited.

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Necros can defend themselves, problem is that when you combine classes like soulbeast which use worldly strike and mobilitty and sustain it becomes a unfair fight.Nobody would guess you played ranger before (even if this was a long time ago). What build can match reaper dps while having sustain? Soulbeast did not have this before the February patch and now it is even more impossible.

@KrHome.1920

In case you do not know a full shroud reaper can eat the classic lb combo with sicem without any issue (4-2-1-1) [ even without different damage reduction skills / boons]. (so @Leonidrex.5649 is right)What about the second in close combat? Well you can remove shroud and damage the reaper (2-5-2-F3) [again without different damage reduction skills / boons but if you miss it will become a suicide]

If you really want to look at reaper full kit vs the sicem slb kit it is not even a contest. The ratio defense / offense of reaper puts anything slb can do to shame and is far more reliable.

Everyone has their favorits and thats that. I tend to stick around most on ele forums and nec forums. I have played ranger in pvp not much but some i dueled. I didn't play soulbeast i play core ranger because from what i heard druid spec right now is about spamming immob and being group support healer.

There is always going to be bias towards classes. A ranger main who's main is ranger will think of good of what ranger is.Honestly i don't think core is necessarily op now.

As for your question:

Classes which can burst hard and have lots of CC can counter reaper.

Ranger has fairly good mobility and reaper has 17 sec cd. You have tools like stealth axe has good CC. CC the nec with cripples and run away when they are in reaper form. Reaper shroud isn't meant to be tanked, otherwise it defeats the purpose of big scary mode.Also nec outside reaper shroud are more vulnerable due to not having extra health from lifeforce. Play smart and should they be dumb and run out of spectral walks and wurm ports, they are unable to get away very easily anymore. There are some high burst classes still its just that some classes are in a very rough spot. Mes for instance is in a pretty rough spot at the moment and they get nerfed Warr i don't even understand and thief which is the most mobile class gets continuously nerfed now that the damage was nerfed they are targetting the mobility.If we keept his up, we might as well give everyone sticks and just fight clicking hit.

You simply cannot delete damage of reaper without huge repercussions, and that is: people will facetank it and it will no longer be scary anymore.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Axl.8924 said:

You simply cannot delete damage of reaper without huge repercussions, and that is: people will facetank it and it will no longer be scary anymore.

Actually, that's exactly what people want.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Its funny that people complaining that a auto attack being 5k+ on a transform skill are being called as unreasonable when guaranteed if rampage had 5k+ auto's 100% necros would be stating that is way op. The complaints about lich have very little to do with necro or its elites and all to do with the fact 5k+ damage from any class or any transform skill is absurdly overpowered, whether its on necro, rampage or any other class. Imagine if holo whent into its forge mechanic and that allowed them to auto hit for 5k+, players would rightly want that nerfed to.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Its funny that people complaining that a auto attack being 5k+ on a transform skill are being called as unreasonable when guaranteed if rampage had 5k+ auto's 100% necros would be stating that is way op. The complaints about lich have very little to do with necro or its elites and all to do with the fact 5k+ damage from any class or any transform skill is absurdly overpowered, whether its on necro, rampage or any other class. Imagine if holo whent into its forge mechanic and that allowed them to auto hit for 5k+, players would rightly want that nerfed to.

Well Rampage autos have CCs built into them so it would be OP right? After all "CC's are their own reward."

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Its funny that people complaining that a auto attack being 5k+ on a transform skill are being called as unreasonable when guaranteed if rampage had 5k+ auto's 100% necros would be stating that is way op. The complaints about lich have very little to do with necro or its elites and all to do with the fact 5k+ damage from any class or any transform skill is absurdly overpowered, whether its on necro, rampage or any other class. Imagine if holo whent into its forge mechanic and that allowed them to auto hit for 5k+, players would rightly want that nerfed to.

Well Rampage autos have CCs built into them so it would be OP right? After all "CC's are their own reward."

True but let's compare and pretend rampage does same 5k+ auto's.Ramapage criple/vulnerable and .5 daze if all three hits goes off- melee range.

Lich piercing 5k+ up to 5 targets at 1200 range.

Anyway my argument is no autos should ever be 5k+ damage due to their spammability whether its a class weapon auto or from a transform skill.

A necro sitting off node just spamming one skill should not be as rewarding as it is, u can say well ur team should focus necro but let's not forget that necro also has teammates in the fight, imagine focusing the necro and a trap dh,burn guard or scourge etc is aoe condi bombing ur team for a easy wipe lol fun gameplay right there.

[aymnad.9023]

@Axl.8924 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Necros can defend themselves, problem is that when you combine classes like soulbeast which use worldly strike and mobilitty and sustain it becomes a unfair fight.Nobody would guess you played ranger before (even if this was a long time ago). What build can match reaper dps while having sustain? Soulbeast did not have this before the February patch and now it is even more impossible.

@KrHome.1920

In case you do not know a full shroud reaper can eat the classic lb combo with sicem without any issue (4-2-1-1) [ even without different damage reduction skills / boons]. (so @Leonidrex.5649 is right)What about the second in close combat? Well you can remove shroud and damage the reaper (2-5-2-F3) [again without different damage reduction skills / boons but if you miss it will become a suicide]

If you really want to look at reaper full kit vs the sicem slb kit it is not even a contest. The ratio defense / offense of reaper puts anything slb can do to shame and is far more reliable.

Everyone has their favorits and thats that. I tend to stick around most on ele forums and nec forums. I have played ranger in pvp not much but some i dueled. I didn't play soulbeast i play core ranger because from what i heard druid spec right now is about spamming immob and being group support healer.

There is always going to be bias towards classes. A ranger main who's main is ranger will think of good of what ranger is.Honestly i don't think core is necessarily op now.

As for your question:

Classes which can burst hard and have lots of CC can counter reaper.

Ranger has fairly good mobility and reaper has 17 sec cd. You have tools like stealth axe has good CC. CC the nec with cripples and run away when they are in reaper form. Reaper shroud isn't meant to be tanked, otherwise it defeats the purpose of big scary mode.Also nec outside reaper shroud are more vulnerable due to not having extra health from lifeforce. Play smart and should they be dumb and run out of spectral walks and wurm ports, they are unable to get away very easily anymore. There are some high burst classes still its just that some classes are in a very rough spot. Mes for instance is in a pretty rough spot at the moment and they get nerfed Warr i don't even understand and thief which is the most mobile class gets continuously nerfed now that the damage was nerfed they are targetting the mobility.If we keept his up, we might as well give everyone sticks and just fight clicking hit.

That does not answer my question at all. I ask you “Can you think of a single soulbeast build that has the same damage / sustain as reaper?” and you answer me “But you can 1V1 them!”.

• Before the February patch (and the following nerfs to power ranger) you would not see sicem in teams because it was easy to shut down and you could counter its mechanics. But people were dropping fast so you could play it in ranked.
• Since the patch: It still suffers from the same weaknesses. It is very predictable, the sustain is low and a lot of builds can deal with the damage. Something I like from the patch but helped to kill sicem is that supports came back (and they have a lot of tools to counter the damage sources). Instant burst? Stuns or aegis. Range burst? Reflects or projectile denial. (you can add healing to the mixt as for any damage build)

Let me say it again, reaper defense and offense is far, far better than anything soulbeast can bring. (edit : and slb has no synergy with supports in teamfights)

If we talk about damage : Reaper damage is high enough to scare away any build not using a defensive amulet, its cleave is great and can destroy teamfights. Slb has a higher burst (making it better if you can kill someone in less than 5s), almost no cleave and is very predictable because you need sicem or owp. Why would you pick slb over reaper?If we talk about sustain : Slb sustain is really low. You can pick survival for some defense and condi dispell but will lose a ton of damage (vuln, remorseless, fury) or pick marksmanship and have to spend a lot of time running as soon as you are the focus. Reaper has the shroud baseline (hp, damage reduction) multiple stunbreaks and probably a weaker or similar amount of dispell (depends which sicem is played). You mentioned cc but sicem is not any better against them. (I would even say it is worst)

You simply cannot delete damage of reaper without huge repercussions, and that is: people will facetank it and it will no longer be scary anymore.I also cannot think of a single line where I was asking for reaper nerfs. In fact I would rather have a soulbeast rebalance to either be rewarded for staying in / out of merge for a long time or have higher base damage and be less tied to the multiple conditions you need to meet to get something done.My point is that if you guys really want to say “let’s compare slb to reaper” compare everything or just do not mention it at all because this feels like either a lack of knowledge or a lie. (directed to all those who talked about it not only you)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Its funny that people complaining that a auto attack being 5k+ on a transform skill are being called as unreasonable when guaranteed if rampage had 5k+ auto's 100% necros would be stating that is way op. The complaints about lich have very little to do with necro or its elites and all to do with the fact 5k+ damage from any class or any transform skill is absurdly overpowered, whether its on necro, rampage or any other class. Imagine if holo whent into its forge mechanic and that allowed them to auto hit for 5k+, players would rightly want that nerfed to.

Well Rampage autos have CCs built into them so it would be OP right? After all "CC's are their own reward."

True but let's compare and pretend rampage does same 5k+ auto's.Ramapage criple/vulnerable and .5 daze if all three hits goes off- melee range.

Lich piercing 5k+ up to 5 targets at 1200 range.Even then its a melee versus range issue. If Rampage did do 5k autos, its melee range and melee should hit harder.Anyway my argument is no autos should ever be 5k+ damage due to their spammability whether its a class weapon auto or from a transform skill.One could argue that being locked behind an elite transformation with 90-150s CD for a 10s duration balances out the high damage.

To be honest 5k hits are not what bothers me in this game. Its +15k gimmick combos that bother me. 5k you can take, mitigate, and recover from on a misplay and then bet the other player.

A necro sitting off node just spamming one skill should not be as rewarding as it is, u can say well ur team should focus necro but let's not forget that necro also has teammates in the fight, imagine focusing the necro and a trap dh,burn guard or scourge etc is aoe condi bombing ur team for a easy wipe lol fun gameplay right there.

Then make the other skills worth using. There has been a great deal of 'Nerf this thing' threads, but not really any constructive 'Lets make this thing better' threads.

Is the Lich AA powerful? Oh god yes. I'll sit there and pew pew a spellbreaker to death with it just to be lazy. But its a projectile with an immense amount of counter play that can be turned on the necro using it that people just seem to refuse to bring or use. Its like complaining about DH Maw keeping you locked into traps and symbols when the solution is to break stun and dodge the maw animation, or apply a single stack of stability and walk out of it.

Does that mean that Lich's other abilities don't need a refresh? No, they certainly do need a refresh. Necro Dagger MH and OH need a refresh. Staff needs a refresh.

Necro isn't the only class that with skills and traits that need to be brought out of 2013 and into 2021. And that is why you see many necro players with a death grip on Lich.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Its funny that people complaining that a auto attack being 5k+ on a transform skill are being called as unreasonable when guaranteed if rampage had 5k+ auto's 100% necros would be stating that is way op. The complaints about lich have very little to do with necro or its elites and all to do with the fact 5k+ damage from any class or any transform skill is absurdly overpowered, whether its on necro, rampage or any other class. Imagine if holo whent into its forge mechanic and that allowed them to auto hit for 5k+, players would rightly want that nerfed to.

Well Rampage autos have CCs built into them so it would be OP right? After all "CC's are their own reward."

True but let's compare and pretend rampage does same 5k+ auto's.Ramapage criple/vulnerable and .5 daze if all three hits goes off- melee range.

Lich piercing 5k+ up to 5 targets at 1200 range.Even then its a melee versus range issue. If Rampage did do 5k autos, its melee range and melee should hit harder.Anyway my argument is no autos should ever be 5k+ damage due to their spammability whether its a class weapon auto or from a transform skill.One could argue that being locked behind an elite transformation with 90-150s CD for a 10s duration balances out the high damage.

To be honest 5k hits are not what bothers me in this game. Its +15k gimmick combos that bother me. 5k you can take, mitigate, and recover from on a misplay and then bet the other player.

A necro sitting off node just spamming one skill should not be as rewarding as it is, u can say well ur team should focus necro but let's not forget that necro also has teammates in the fight, imagine focusing the necro and a trap dh,burn guard or scourge etc is aoe condi bombing ur team for a easy wipe lol fun gameplay right there.

Then make the other skills worth using. There has been a great deal of 'Nerf this thing' threads, but not really any constructive 'Lets make this thing better' threads.

Is the Lich AA powerful? Oh god yes. I'll sit there and pew pew a spellbreaker to death with it just to be lazy. But its a projectile with an immense amount of counter play that can be turned on the necro using it that people just seem to refuse to bring or use. Its like complaining about DH Maw keeping you locked into traps and symbols when the solution is to break stun and dodge the maw animation, or apply a single stack of stability and walk out of it.

Does that mean that Lich's

other

abilities don't need a refresh? No, they certainly do need a refresh. Necro Dagger MH and OH need a refresh. Staff needs a refresh.

Necro isn't the only class that with skills and traits that need to be brought out of 2013 and into 2021. And that is why you see many necro players with a death grip on Lich.

To ur first piont melee should be higher damage... I agree but u remove the .5 daze, vulnerable and cripple off rampage 3 hit auto combo and make each 5k or 7k which is what lich autos sometimes hit for and everyone including necro will call op.I wasn't arguing the effectiveness of other lich skills, sure buff them, im just saying 5k+ auto's are to high for a auto skill and promote un healthy playstyle. Moving the damage onto the other skills would be a far better option.now onto the counterplay topic, yrs I normally would agree if this was organized across the bored but think of ur warrior and its skills and their counterplay and the ez of such if ur familiar with warriors basic design, are their skills balanced with counters in mind, and or do players within the community truly keep counterplayabilty in mind when talking nerfs?

[aymnad.9023]

@Axl.8924 said:I kind of skipped a part of your answer because they were not linked to my point and I could not understand. Like the 17s cd (not the cd of deaths charge or wurm or spectral walk) or stealth axe since axe has no stealth.About the general ability to burst I think the game did not lose it. There are still a lot of builds with heavy cleave or single target damage that work in teams, some can be harder in solo queue. I really liked the last mAT because we had a lot of variety in the teams but it could have just been because the patch was 1 week earlier (outside of supports but I think people were lazy and just wanted to win so they went for guard).

[Axl.8924]

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Necros can defend themselves, problem is that when you combine classes like soulbeast which use worldly strike and mobilitty and sustain it becomes a unfair fight.Nobody would guess you played ranger before (even if this was a long time ago). What build can match reaper dps while having sustain? Soulbeast did not have this before the February patch and now it is even more impossible.

@KrHome.1920

In case you do not know a full shroud reaper can eat the classic lb combo with sicem without any issue (4-2-1-1) [ even without different damage reduction skills / boons]. (so @Leonidrex.5649 is right)What about the second in close combat? Well you can remove shroud and damage the reaper (2-5-2-F3) [again without different damage reduction skills / boons but if you miss it will become a suicide]

If you really want to look at reaper full kit vs the sicem slb kit it is not even a contest. The ratio defense / offense of reaper puts anything slb can do to shame and is far more reliable.

Everyone has their favorits and thats that. I tend to stick around most on ele forums and nec forums. I have played ranger in pvp not much but some i dueled. I didn't play soulbeast i play core ranger because from what i heard druid spec right now is about spamming immob and being group support healer.

There is always going to be bias towards classes. A ranger main who's main is ranger will think of good of what ranger is.Honestly i don't think core is necessarily op now.

As for your question:

Classes which can burst hard and have lots of CC can counter reaper.

Ranger has fairly good mobility and reaper has 17 sec cd. You have tools like stealth axe has good CC. CC the nec with cripples and run away when they are in reaper form. Reaper shroud isn't meant to be tanked, otherwise it defeats the purpose of big scary mode.Also nec outside reaper shroud are more vulnerable due to not having extra health from lifeforce. Play smart and should they be dumb and run out of spectral walks and wurm ports, they are unable to get away very easily anymore. There are some high burst classes still its just that some classes are in a very rough spot. Mes for instance is in a pretty rough spot at the moment and they get nerfed Warr i don't even understand and thief which is the most mobile class gets continuously nerfed now that the damage was nerfed they are targetting the mobility.If we keept his up, we might as well give everyone sticks and just fight clicking hit.

That does not answer my question at all. I ask you “Can you think of a single soulbeast build that has the same damage / sustain as reaper?” and you answer me “But you can 1V1 them!”.

• Before the February patch (and the following nerfs to power ranger) you would not see sicem in teams because it was easy to shut down and you could counter its mechanics. But people were dropping fast so you could play it in ranked.
• Since the patch: It still suffers from the same weaknesses. It is very predictable, the sustain is low and a lot of builds can deal with the damage. Something I like from the patch but helped to kill sicem is that supports came back (and they have a lot of tools to counter the damage sources). Instant burst? Stuns or aegis. Range burst? Reflects or projectile denial. (you can add healing to the mixt as for any damage build)

Let me say it again, reaper defense and offense is far, far better than anything soulbeast can bring. (edit : and slb has no synergy with supports in teamfights)

If we talk about damage : Reaper damage is high enough to scare away any build not using a defensive amulet, its cleave is great and can destroy teamfights. Slb has a higher burst (making it better if you can kill someone in less than 5s), almost no cleave and is very predictable because you need sicem or owp. Why would you pick slb over reaper?If we talk about sustain : Slb sustain is really low. You can pick survival for some defense and condi dispell but will lose a ton of damage (vuln, remorseless, fury) or pick marksmanship and have to spend a lot of time running as soon as you are the focus. Reaper has the shroud baseline (hp, damage reduction) multiple stunbreaks and probably a weaker or similar amount of dispell (depends which sicem is played). You mentioned cc but sicem is not any better against them. (I would even say it is worst)

You simply cannot delete damage of reaper without huge repercussions, and that is: people will facetank it and it will no longer be scary anymore.I also cannot think of a single line where I was asking for reaper nerfs. In fact I would rather have a soulbeast rebalance to either be rewarded for staying in / out of merge for a long time or have higher base damage and be less tied to the multiple conditions you need to meet to get something done.My point is that if you guys really want to say “let’s compare slb to reaper” compare everything or just do not mention it at all because this feels like either a lack of knowledge or a lie. (directed to all those who talked about it not only you)

Well i mean Soulbeast used to have fairly high dmg. Last time i played core ranger just to do 5-6k dmg i needed multiple procs off just to get good hits, because average hits were doing 1.5-2k dmg.

And soulbeast with fusion has a buncha abilities. I don't have access to soulbeast but i've seen videos of what it used to be like and gameplay.

I also played ranger and dueled in arena of mists to get an idea how to play and even if i'm bad, good players i'm sure can kite nec. It may not hit as harad as reaper or hit as hard as lich average, but you can do high as prob 5-6k if you proc right get some of the other abilities .

I also found that some specific classes on ranger gave me trouble, one being revenant. Those aoes and the speed were hard to deal with, but like i said: I don't have the most experience on ranger, but i've seen what kind of damage is capable. I also know that axe used to be able to dish out some nice damage too and GS too.

Some of the issues relating to nerfing lich is this:

Lich is locked out from abilities, it has 120 sec cd a slow moving particle that magnetic aura in theory should work against blocked invulned against and possibly outrun. Lich because of being locked out of abilities while using is vulnerable to being beat down.

It has counters to it, even if its damage is really high.eir attacks that are avoidable and risky do the most damage, so they have counterplay.

[aymnad.9023]

@Axl.8924 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Everyone has their favorits and thats that. I tend to stick around most on ele forums and nec forums. I have played ranger in pvp not much but some i dueled. I didn't play soulbeast i play core ranger because from what i heard druid spec right now is about spamming immob and being group support healer.

There is always going to be bias towards classes. A ranger main who's main is ranger will think of good of what ranger is.Honestly i don't think core is necessarily op now.

As for your question:

Classes which can burst hard and have lots of CC can counter reaper.

Ranger has fairly good mobility and reaper has 17 sec cd. You have tools like stealth axe has good CC. CC the nec with cripples and run away when they are in reaper form. Reaper shroud isn't meant to be tanked, otherwise it defeats the purpose of big scary mode.Also nec outside reaper shroud are more vulnerable due to not having extra health from lifeforce. Play smart and should they be dumb and run out of spectral walks and wurm ports, they are unable to get away very easily anymore. There are some high burst classes still its just that some classes are in a very rough spot. Mes for instance is in a pretty rough spot at the moment and they get nerfed Warr i don't even understand and thief which is the most mobile class gets continuously nerfed now that the damage was nerfed they are targetting the mobility.If we keept his up, we might as well give everyone sticks and just fight clicking hit.

That does not answer my question at all. I ask you “Can you think of a single soulbeast build that has the same damage / sustain as reaper?” and you answer me “But you can 1V1 them!”.

• Before the February patch (and the following nerfs to power ranger) you would not see sicem in teams because it was easy to shut down and you could counter its mechanics. But people were dropping fast so you could play it in ranked.
• Since the patch: It still suffers from the same weaknesses. It is very predictable, the sustain is low and a lot of builds can deal with the damage. Something I like from the patch but helped to kill sicem is that supports came back (and they have a lot of tools to counter the damage sources). Instant burst? Stuns or aegis. Range burst? Reflects or projectile denial. (you can add healing to the mixt as for any damage build)

Let me say it again, reaper defense and offense is far, far better than anything soulbeast can bring. (edit : and slb has no synergy with supports in teamfights)

If we talk about damage : Reaper damage is high enough to scare away any build not using a defensive amulet, its cleave is great and can destroy teamfights. Slb has a higher burst (making it better if you can kill someone in less than 5s), almost no cleave and is very predictable because you need sicem or owp. Why would you pick slb over reaper?If we talk about sustain : Slb sustain is really low. You can pick survival for some defense and condi dispell but will lose a ton of damage (vuln, remorseless, fury) or pick marksmanship and have to spend a lot of time running as soon as you are the focus. Reaper has the shroud baseline (hp, damage reduction) multiple stunbreaks and probably a weaker or similar amount of dispell (depends which sicem is played). You mentioned cc but sicem is not any better against them. (I would even say it is worst)

You simply cannot delete damage of reaper without huge repercussions, and that is: people will facetank it and it will no longer be scary anymore.I also cannot think of a single line where I was asking for reaper nerfs. In fact I would rather have a soulbeast rebalance to either be rewarded for staying in / out of merge for a long time or have higher base damage and be less tied to the multiple conditions you need to meet to get something done.My point is that if you guys really want to say “let’s compare slb to reaper” compare everything or just do not mention it at all because this feels like either a lack of knowledge or a lie. (directed to all those who talked about it not only you)

Well i mean Soulbeast used to have fairly high dmg. Last time i played core ranger just to do 5-6k dmg i needed multiple procs off just to get good hits, because average hits were doing 1.5-2k dmg.I think core power is the best ranger option right now. It has some hard matchups but is flexible. The thing about soulbeast is that you lose access to the 3 core specialization combo.I find the e-specs a bit limited or weak against the most played builds right now. I would say soulbeast is only decent with condi because this is the only option allowing a mixt of sustain and damage, finally druid does not bring much.

And soulbeast with fusion has a buncha abilities. I don't have access to soulbeast but i've seen videos of what it used to be like and gameplay.I am not sold on most the merged skills. Just like for any ranger spec most of the pets are weak. Having the utilities unlike transform should be good but the benefits end up being way smaller and you need to specialize into something (damage or sustain) to make it work.

I also played ranger and dueled in arena of mists to get an idea how to play and even if i'm bad, good players i'm sure can kite nec. It may not hit as harad as reaper or hit as hard as lich average, but you can do high as prob 5-6k if you proc right get some of the other abilities .

I also found that some specific classes on ranger gave me trouble, one being revenant. Those aoes and the speed were hard to deal with, but like i said: I don't have the most experience on ranger, but i've seen what kind of damage is capable. I also know that axe used to be able to dish out some nice damage too and GS too.Yes revenants are hard to fight.

Some of the issues relating to nerfing lich is this:

Lich is locked out from abilities, it has 120 sec cd a slow moving particle that magnetic aura in theory should work against blocked invulned against and possibly outrun. Lich because of being locked out of abilities while using is vulnerable to being beat down.

It has counters to it, even if its damage is really high.eir attacks that are avoidable and risky do the most damage, so they have counterplay.It has a lot of counters but necro can work in fights without it. They also can force defensive cds before going into lich. I do not think it would it really be a gamechanger for necro if only the autos sees some damage nerf. Reaper will still have pressure, core and scourge will still corrupt and you can reduce the cooldown at the same time if it ends up being too much.

[choovanski.5462]

these are the type of threads we get after getting all the toughness amulets removed....

never change guys, keep it classy, always one step behind

[Lonecap.4105]

People in this topic should educate themselves on coefficients. Lich AA is 2.36 - it needs to be below 2.00. Any burst ability is hard capped at 2.00 multiplier, like Kill Shot. Rampage autos for example are 1.3 so anyone defending these coefficients is embarrassing themselves at this point.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Axl.8924 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Necros can defend themselves, problem is that when you combine classes like soulbeast which use worldly strike and mobilitty and sustain it becomes a unfair fight.Nobody would guess you played ranger before (even if this was a long time ago). What build can match reaper dps while having sustain? Soulbeast did not have this before the February patch and now it is even more impossible.

@KrHome.1920

In case you do not know a full shroud reaper can eat the classic lb combo with sicem without any issue (4-2-1-1) [ even without different damage reduction skills / boons]. (so @"Leonidrex.5649" is right)What about the second in close combat? Well you can remove shroud and damage the reaper (2-5-2-F3) [again without different damage reduction skills / boons but if you miss it will become a suicide]

If you really want to look at reaper full kit vs the sicem slb kit it is not even a contest. The ratio defense / offense of reaper puts anything slb can do to shame and is far more reliable.

Everyone has their favorits and thats that. I tend to stick around most on ele forums and nec forums. I have played ranger in pvp not much but some i dueled. I didn't play soulbeast i play core ranger because from what i heard druid spec right now is about spamming immob and being group support healer.

There is always going to be bias towards classes. A ranger main who's main is ranger will think of good of what ranger is.Honestly i don't think core is necessarily op now.

As for your question:

Classes which can burst hard and have lots of CC can counter reaper.

Ranger has fairly good mobility and reaper has 17 sec cd. You have tools like stealth axe has good CC. CC the nec with cripples and run away when they are in reaper form. Reaper shroud isn't meant to be tanked, otherwise it defeats the purpose of big scary mode.Also nec outside reaper shroud are more vulnerable due to not having extra health from lifeforce. Play smart and should they be dumb and run out of spectral walks and wurm ports, they are unable to get away very easily anymore. There are some high burst classes still its just that some classes are in a very rough spot. Mes for instance is in a pretty rough spot at the moment and they get nerfed Warr i don't even understand and thief which is the most mobile class gets continuously nerfed now that the damage was nerfed they are targetting the mobility.If we keept his up, we might as well give everyone sticks and just fight clicking hit.

That does not answer my question at all. I ask you “Can you think of a single soulbeast build that has the same damage / sustain as reaper?” and you answer me “But you can 1V1 them!”.

• Before the February patch (and the following nerfs to power ranger) you would not see sicem in teams because it was easy to shut down and you could counter its mechanics. But people were dropping fast so you could play it in ranked.
• Since the patch: It still suffers from the same weaknesses. It is very predictable, the sustain is low and a lot of builds can deal with the damage. Something I like from the patch but helped to kill sicem is that supports came back (and they have a lot of tools to counter the damage sources). Instant burst? Stuns or aegis. Range burst? Reflects or projectile denial. (you can add healing to the mixt as for any damage build)

Let me say it again, reaper defense and offense is far, far better than anything soulbeast can bring. (edit : and slb has no synergy with supports in teamfights)

If we talk about damage : Reaper damage is high enough to scare away any build not using a defensive amulet, its cleave is great and can destroy teamfights. Slb has a higher burst (making it better if you can kill someone in less than 5s), almost no cleave and is very predictable because you need sicem or owp. Why would you pick slb over reaper?If we talk about sustain : Slb sustain is really low. You can pick survival for some defense and condi dispell but will lose a ton of damage (vuln, remorseless, fury) or pick marksmanship and have to spend a lot of time running as soon as you are the focus. Reaper has the shroud baseline (hp, damage reduction) multiple stunbreaks and probably a weaker or similar amount of dispell (depends which sicem is played). You mentioned cc but sicem is not any better against them. (I would even say it is worst)

You simply cannot delete damage of reaper without huge repercussions, and that is: people will facetank it and it will no longer be scary anymore.I also cannot think of a single line where I was asking for reaper nerfs. In fact I would rather have a soulbeast rebalance to either be rewarded for staying in / out of merge for a long time or have higher base damage and be less tied to the multiple conditions you need to meet to get something done.My point is that if you guys really want to say “let’s compare slb to reaper” compare everything or just do not mention it at all because this feels like either a lack of knowledge or a lie. (directed to all those who talked about it not only you)

Well i mean Soulbeast used to have fairly high dmg. Last time i played core ranger just to do 5-6k dmg i needed multiple procs off just to get good hits, because average hits were doing 1.5-2k dmg.

And soulbeast with fusion has a buncha abilities. I don't have access to soulbeast but i've seen videos of what it used to be like and gameplay.

I also played ranger and dueled in arena of mists to get an idea how to play and even if i'm bad, good players i'm sure can kite nec. It may not hit as harad as reaper or hit as hard as lich average, but you can do high as prob 5-6k if you proc right get some of the other abilities .

I also found that some specific classes on ranger gave me trouble, one being revenant. Those aoes and the speed were hard to deal with, but like i said: I don't have the most experience on ranger, but i've seen what kind of damage is capable. I also know that axe used to be able to dish out some nice damage too and GS too.

Some of the issues relating to nerfing lich is this:

Lich is locked out from abilities, it has 120 sec cd a slow moving particle that magnetic aura in theory should work against blocked invulned against and possibly outrun. Lich because of being locked out of abilities while using is vulnerable to being beat down.

It has counters to it, even if its damage is really high.eir attacks that are avoidable and risky do the most damage, so they have counterplay.

It is wrong and unwise to keep defending the current Lich Form, this time should be spent in proposing changes to the benefits of necro :

-We could turn Lich Form into an invulnerable, teleporting mobile "fortress" on a 60-70s CD, doing very low dmg but allowing necros to escape otherwise doomed situations-A pulsing stability form increasing movement speed, adding dmg mitigation against power and condi on a 90s CD

I am just throwing idea out there but it would be a start, better than try to defend the current iteration...I mean it's the only elite which can turns the table on the victor during a fight and that itself means IWIN utility.....Rampage was exactly like that

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:People in this topic should educate themselves on coefficients. Lich AA is 2.36 - it needs to be below 2.00. Any burst ability is hard capped at 2.00 multiplier, like Kill Shot. Rampage autos for example are 1.3 so anyone defending these coefficients is embarrassing themselves at this point.

That just hammers home how sloppy the Feb2020 patch was though right? They left plenty of skills laying around with over 2.00 coefficient. It really was a half down patch, and they should just revert it.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"dday.9532" said:Not that its not easily countered, but transform skills in general are just bad pvp design. Like an ultimate should be relevant to the build not just make you super powerful for like 10 seconds. Feel the same way about rampage and that skill isn't even very good either.

I totally agree with you and that's the issue with transform elite skills in general. I'd even say that it's not just bad PvP design, it's bad design in every game modes. It's difficult to understand why players would defend a few seconds of OPness with terrible uptime (it's worse when the argument is: "We don't trust ANet to give us something good enough to compensate the loss of OPness".)

Lich form is just plain bad in PvE (it's only value there is probably to do some kind of creepy RP), a poor choice in WvW and a gimmick in sPvP. I even suspect that ANet don't touch Lich form because they are scared that the skill no longer see any active use and that some players realise that it would just be more effective to have a lich tonic than this "skill".

[Dadnir.5038]

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:People in this topic should educate themselves on coefficients. Lich AA is 2.36 - it needs to be below 2.00. Any burst ability is hard capped at 2.00 multiplier, like Kill Shot. Rampage autos for example are 1.3 so anyone defending these coefficients is embarrassing themselves at this point.

Well, you're right, there is also people that think lich have a 120s CD while it got a 150s CD and people that fail to see that rampage AA is 0.91/0.91/1.3.

Comparing lich form AA and rampage AA isn't really a great way to have a clear picture of what's wrong. These 2 transformations have opposite philosophies. One is ranged, the other is melee. One focus on damage the other on CC and damage reduction. One have a lot of mobility the other have poor mobility, one have a slow attack rate while the other a relatively high attack rate (at least in comparaison), one have a trait to improve it's damage and reduce it's CD while the other don't... etc.

I'm not defending lich form AA but it's coefficient are probably tied to the way the transformation is built. The best option would probably be to replace all transformation elite skills by more "common skills" to avoid having players comparing apples and oranges in order to justify "nerfs".

[Axl.8924]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Necros can defend themselves, problem is that when you combine classes like soulbeast which use worldly strike and mobilitty and sustain it becomes a unfair fight.Nobody would guess you played ranger before (even if this was a long time ago). What build can match reaper dps while having sustain? Soulbeast did not have this before the February patch and now it is even more impossible.

@KrHome.1920

In case you do not know a full shroud reaper can eat the classic lb combo with sicem without any issue (4-2-1-1) [ even without different damage reduction skills / boons]. (so @"Leonidrex.5649" is right)What about the second in close combat? Well you can remove shroud and damage the reaper (2-5-2-F3) [again without different damage reduction skills / boons but if you miss it will become a suicide]

If you really want to look at reaper full kit vs the sicem slb kit it is not even a contest. The ratio defense / offense of reaper puts anything slb can do to shame and is far more reliable.

Everyone has their favorits and thats that. I tend to stick around most on ele forums and nec forums. I have played ranger in pvp not much but some i dueled. I didn't play soulbeast i play core ranger because from what i heard druid spec right now is about spamming immob and being group support healer.

There is always going to be bias towards classes. A ranger main who's main is ranger will think of good of what ranger is.Honestly i don't think core is necessarily op now.

As for your question:

Classes which can burst hard and have lots of CC can counter reaper.

Ranger has fairly good mobility and reaper has 17 sec cd. You have tools like stealth axe has good CC. CC the nec with cripples and run away when they are in reaper form. Reaper shroud isn't meant to be tanked, otherwise it defeats the purpose of big scary mode.Also nec outside reaper shroud are more vulnerable due to not having extra health from lifeforce. Play smart and should they be dumb and run out of spectral walks and wurm ports, they are unable to get away very easily anymore. There are some high burst classes still its just that some classes are in a very rough spot. Mes for instance is in a pretty rough spot at the moment and they get nerfed Warr i don't even understand and thief which is the most mobile class gets continuously nerfed now that the damage was nerfed they are targetting the mobility.If we keept his up, we might as well give everyone sticks and just fight clicking hit.

That does not answer my question at all. I ask you “Can you think of a single soulbeast build that has the same damage / sustain as reaper?” and you answer me “But you can 1V1 them!”.

• Before the February patch (and the following nerfs to power ranger) you would not see sicem in teams because it was easy to shut down and you could counter its mechanics. But people were dropping fast so you could play it in ranked.
• Since the patch: It still suffers from the same weaknesses. It is very predictable, the sustain is low and a lot of builds can deal with the damage. Something I like from the patch but helped to kill sicem is that supports came back (and they have a lot of tools to counter the damage sources). Instant burst? Stuns or aegis. Range burst? Reflects or projectile denial. (you can add healing to the mixt as for any damage build)

Let me say it again, reaper defense and offense is far, far better than anything soulbeast can bring. (edit : and slb has no synergy with supports in teamfights)

If we talk about damage : Reaper damage is high enough to scare away any build not using a defensive amulet, its cleave is great and can destroy teamfights. Slb has a higher burst (making it better if you can kill someone in less than 5s), almost no cleave and is very predictable because you need sicem or owp. Why would you pick slb over reaper?If we talk about sustain : Slb sustain is really low. You can pick survival for some defense and condi dispell but will lose a ton of damage (vuln, remorseless, fury) or pick marksmanship and have to spend a lot of time running as soon as you are the focus. Reaper has the shroud baseline (hp, damage reduction) multiple stunbreaks and probably a weaker or similar amount of dispell (depends which sicem is played). You mentioned cc but sicem is not any better against them. (I would even say it is worst)

You simply cannot delete damage of reaper without huge repercussions, and that is: people will facetank it and it will no longer be scary anymore.I also cannot think of a single line where I was asking for reaper nerfs. In fact I would rather have a soulbeast rebalance to either be rewarded for staying in / out of merge for a long time or have higher base damage and be less tied to the multiple conditions you need to meet to get something done.My point is that if you guys really want to say “let’s compare slb to reaper” compare everything or just do not mention it at all because this feels like either a lack of knowledge or a lie. (directed to all those who talked about it not only you)

Well i mean Soulbeast used to have fairly high dmg. Last time i played core ranger just to do 5-6k dmg i needed multiple procs off just to get good hits, because average hits were doing 1.5-2k dmg.

And soulbeast with fusion has a buncha abilities. I don't have access to soulbeast but i've seen videos of what it used to be like and gameplay.

I also played ranger and dueled in arena of mists to get an idea how to play and even if i'm bad, good players i'm sure can kite nec. It may not hit as harad as reaper or hit as hard as lich average, but you can do high as prob 5-6k if you proc right get some of the other abilities .

I also found that some specific classes on ranger gave me trouble, one being revenant. Those aoes and the speed were hard to deal with, but like i said: I don't have the most experience on ranger, but i've seen what kind of damage is capable. I also know that axe used to be able to dish out some nice damage too and GS too.

Some of the issues relating to nerfing lich is this:

Lich is locked out from abilities, it has 120 sec cd a slow moving particle that magnetic aura in theory should work against blocked invulned against and possibly outrun. Lich because of being locked out of abilities while using is vulnerable to being beat down.

It has counters to it, even if its damage is really high.eir attacks that are avoidable and risky do the most damage, so they have counterplay.

It is wrong and unwise to keep defending the current Lich Form, this time should be spent in proposing changes to the benefits of necro :

-We could turn Lich Form into an invulnerable, teleporting mobile "fortress" on a 60-70s CD, doing very low dmg but allowing necros to escape otherwise doomed situations-A pulsing stability form increasing movement speed, adding dmg mitigation against power and condi on a 90s CD

I am just throwing idea out there but it would be a start, better than try to defend the current iteration...I mean it's the only elite which can turns the table on the victor during a fight and that itself means IWIN utility.....Rampage was exactly like that

well i mean if they improve other areas i can see it becoming useful or even getting rid of lich all together for its issues and focusing on the regular transform core nec has.Personally as a fan of nec i think lich isn't worth keeping and just better to do other stuff with nec, just too many issues. it has 150 sec CD and the dmg is problematic in that it hits very hard and its hard and its going to get nerfed anyways and nec is still viable without it, its not like nec will cease to be without. Core in itself is already super strong in pvp anyways and i kinda hate lich form.

[Shroud.2307]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Its funny that people complaining that a auto attack being 5k+ on a transform skill are being called as unreasonable when guaranteed if rampage had 5k+ auto's 100% necros would be stating that is way op. The complaints about lich have very little to do with necro or its elites and all to do with the fact 5k+ damage from any class or any transform skill is absurdly overpowered, whether its on necro, rampage or any other class. Imagine if holo whent into its forge mechanic and that allowed them to auto hit for 5k+, players would rightly want that nerfed to.

Well Rampage autos have CCs built into them so it would be OP right? After all "CC's are their own reward."

True but let's compare and pretend rampage does same 5k+ auto's.Ramapage criple/vulnerable and .5 daze if all three hits goes off- melee range.

Lich piercing 5k+ up to 5 targets at 1200 range.

Anyway my argument is no autos should ever be 5k+ damage due to their spammability whether its a class weapon auto or from a transform skill.

A necro sitting off node just spamming one skill should not be as rewarding as it is, u can say well ur team should focus necro but let's not forget that necro also has teammates in the fight, imagine focusing the necro and a trap dh,burn guard or scourge etc is aoe condi bombing ur team for a easy wipe lol fun gameplay right there.

Rampage:50% damage reduced.33% movement impairment reduced (Cripple, Chill, Immobilize)x2 Stability per pulse, 3 secondsx2 Leapsx4 CC's, one on auto attackUsually hits 2 - 3k per auto.

Lich Form:+1000 Precisionx1 Stability per pulse, 3 secondsx 1 CC (Fear)Usually hits 5k unbuffed on auto, can hit much harder.

(Both grant additional health while transformed)

I understand you were using Rampage as an example, but if we compare the two you can see why Lich Form has much higher damage. It's slower, has no damage reduction, less CC, no soft CC reduction, less Stability, and auto attacks can be Reflected/Destroyed, Rampage's cannot.

Rampage is equally strong, it's just that what it provides is more defensive than offensive, though it certainly doesn't lack offensive power either.

As I'd said earlier in this thread, yes Lich Form damage is absurdly strong. I don't necessarily think it is undeserving of nerfs as I understand the damage it does is unlike anything else, I just think that is the entire purpose of it and without the damage it's useless.If the damage on Rampage were to be nerfed in the next patch it would still be useful because what it provides defensively and through the utility of CC. If Lich Form damage were to be nerfed, it would be useless because transforming would be suicide against anything that could face tank a couple hits from it. The other skills it has are useful, but not enough to warrant transforming for without having devastating damage to force people away from you.

The only way Lich Form can be reasonably nerfed is if they add damage to other skills or compensate with something else.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Shroud.2307 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Its funny that people complaining that a auto attack being 5k+ on a transform skill are being called as unreasonable when guaranteed if rampage had 5k+ auto's 100% necros would be stating that is way op. The complaints about lich have very little to do with necro or its elites and all to do with the fact 5k+ damage from any class or any transform skill is absurdly overpowered, whether its on necro, rampage or any other class. Imagine if holo whent into its forge mechanic and that allowed them to auto hit for 5k+, players would rightly want that nerfed to.

Well Rampage autos have CCs built into them so it would be OP right? After all "CC's are their own reward."

True but let's compare and pretend rampage does same 5k+ auto's.Ramapage criple/vulnerable and .5 daze if all three hits goes off- melee range.

Lich piercing 5k+ up to 5 targets at 1200 range.

Anyway my argument is no autos should ever be 5k+ damage due to their spammability whether its a class weapon auto or from a transform skill.

A necro sitting off node just spamming one skill should not be as rewarding as it is, u can say well ur team should focus necro but let's not forget that necro also has teammates in the fight, imagine focusing the necro and a trap dh,burn guard or scourge etc is aoe condi bombing ur team for a easy wipe lol fun gameplay right there.

Rampage:50% damage reduced.33% movement impairment reduced

(Cripple, Chill, Immobilize)

x2 Stability per pulse, 3 secondsx2 Leapsx4 CC's, one on auto attackUsually hits 2 - 3k per auto.

Lich Form:+1000 Precisionx1 Stability per pulse, 3 secondsx 1 CC

(Fear)

Usually hits 5k unbuffed on auto, can hit much harder.

(Both grant additional health while transformed)

I understand you were using Rampage as an example, but if we compare the two you can see why Lich Form has much higher damage. It's slower, has no damage reduction, less CC, no soft CC reduction, less Stability, and auto attacks can be Reflected/Destroyed, Rampage's cannot.

Rampage is equally strong, it's just that what it provides is more defensive than offensive, though it certainly doesn't lack offensive power either.

As I'd said earlier in this thread, yes Lich Form damage is absurdly strong. I don't necessarily think it is undeserving of nerfs as I understand the damage it does is unlike anything else, I just think that is the entire purpose of it and without the damage it's useless.If the damage on Rampage were to be nerfed in the next patch it would still be useful because what it provides defensively and through the utility of CC. If Lich Form damage were to be nerfed, it would be useless because transforming would be suicide against anything that could face tank a couple hits from it. The other skills it has are useful, but not enough to warrant transforming for without having devastating damage to force people away from you.

The only way Lich Form can be reasonably nerfed is if they

add

damage to other skills or compensate with something else.

My piont was really just that any weapon or transform skill shouldn't be doing 5k and up from their auto skills, maybe it was fine pre feb but definitely isn't post feb in relation to the rest of the roster . My other point was it promotes unhealthy playstyles which I don't feel I need to explain, and necro is far from the only class with this issue.

[Gamble.4580]

Rev> necro

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

I think the "issue" with Lich Form is exaggerated thanks to a meta where you'll either be dealing with a necro w/ Lich that's getting sustained by a core guard - or you'll be held in place by a DH - or you'll be pressured by a herald / renegade. In all these scenarios, Lich Form shines and applies massive pressure.

Necro in general is very strong right now, and its weaknesses are being negated by other meta builds.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:I think the "issue" with Lich Form is exaggerated thanks to a meta where you'll either be dealing with a necro w/ Lich that's getting sustained by a core guard - or you'll be held in place by a DH - or you'll be pressured by a herald / renegade. In all these scenarios, Lich Form shines and applies massive pressure.

Necro in general is very strong right now, and its weaknesses are being negated by other meta builds.

Honestly the reason were dealing with lich autos being 5k+ is cuz the balance devs or dev -cmc isn't nearly as good at balancing as everyone was raving about. If he was even close to competent trapper rune wouldn't be what it is still allowing trap dh to exist this long, burn tics would be reduced and the passive burn procs on burn guards and their ability to proc and re-proc absurd amounts of burn stacks on u wouldn't have existed as long as it has as well. This games pvp is just going to keep losing players and its not going to improve unless cmc gets his thumb out of his ass or until a half way competent team manager actually moves some resources into balancing the roster, fixing stuff they missed in Feb, broke in Feb and reworking things that need reworked. From a ip prospective I cant believe this gbage that we have now is actually acceptable to them. Oh oh another ban oh no.Their that slow in the ..... to not recognize that guards/dh, necro are played twice as often as other classes?

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:I think the "issue" with Lich Form is exaggerated thanks to a meta where you'll either be dealing with a necro w/ Lich that's getting sustained by a core guard - or you'll be held in place by a DH - or you'll be pressured by a herald / renegade. In all these scenarios, Lich Form shines and applies massive pressure.

Necro in general is very strong right now, and its weaknesses are being negated by other meta builds.

Honestly the reason were dealing with lich autos being 5k+ is cuz the balance devs or dev -cmc isn't nearly as good at balancing as everyone was raving about. If he was even close to competent trapper rune wouldn't be what it is still allowing trap dh to exist this long, burn tics would be reduced and the passive burn procs on burn guards and their ability to proc and re-proc absurd amounts of burn stacks on u wouldn't have existed as long as it has as well. This games pvp is just going to keep losing players and its not going to improve unless cmc gets his thumb out of his kitten or until a half way competent team manager actually moves some resources into balancing the the rosters, fixing stuff they missed in Feb, broke in Feb and reworking things that need reworked. From a ip prospective I cant believe this gbage that we have now is actually acceptable to them. Oh oh another ban oh no.Their that slow in the ..... to not recognize ize that guards/dh, necro are played twice as often as other classes?

I mean, I agree, CMC's balance philosophies seem to, despite every high lvl player's expectations at the time, be against the average "high skill" player. And while 5k lich autos might be something worth looking at (probably are, particularly if they intend to keep things close to what we have now), they're not the "primary issue" we're suffering from.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:I think the "issue" with Lich Form is exaggerated thanks to a meta where you'll either be dealing with a necro w/ Lich that's getting sustained by a core guard - or you'll be held in place by a DH - or you'll be pressured by a herald / renegade. In all these scenarios, Lich Form shines and applies massive pressure.

Necro in general is very strong right now, and its weaknesses are being negated by other meta builds.

Honestly the reason were dealing with lich autos being 5k+ is cuz the balance devs or dev -cmc isn't nearly as good at balancing as everyone was raving about. If he was even close to competent trapper rune wouldn't be what it is still allowing trap dh to exist this long, burn tics would be reduced and the passive burn procs on burn guards and their ability to proc and re-proc absurd amounts of burn stacks on u wouldn't have existed as long as it has as well. This games pvp is just going to keep losing players and its not going to improve unless cmc gets his thumb out of his kitten or until a half way competent team manager actually moves some resources into balancing the the rosters, fixing stuff they missed in Feb, broke in Feb and reworking things that need reworked. From a ip prospective I cant believe this gbage that we have now is actually acceptable to them. Oh oh another ban oh no.Their that slow in the ..... to not recognize ize that guards/dh, necro are played twice as often as other classes?

I mean, I agree, CMC's balance philosophies seem to, despite every high lvl player's expectations at the time, be against the average "high skill" player. And while 5k lich autos might be something worth looking at (probably are, particularly if they intend to keep things close to what we have now), they're not the "primary issue" we're suffering from.

No lich isn't the too issue uts just part of sooo many that seem to be lingering and given the issues with the games pvp population decline u'd think I'd be a priority cuz I mean the expac on the horizon is great but u need player retention to.