What Would You Think if All Core and Elite Specs had Access to all of a Profession's Weapons?

[Cuks.8241]

I am not against an expansion of weapon choices for all professions. But this has to be thought out and have a purpose for specific professions. Just flat out opening all the elite options can have several balance downsides and might not really do much. We would probably have a lot of useless weapon options due to the lack of elite spec traits and features and maybe some overpower ones. It really depends on how the weapons were initially implemented. Some are highly dependant on traits, often the first minor trait adds a lot of features to the weapon and those would probably be weak. Some are good on its own and there we could have overpowered variants.The number of available weapons doesn't equal diversity. See Warrior vs Elementalist or Engineer. Hey, even revenant. Of those Warrior is probably the least diverse across all game modes and definitely the least complex. Elementalist has 4 weapon bars (attunements), Engineer has kits which are basically weapons and toolbelt, Revenant is a bit more limited but has 2 utility bars. I actually wouldn't mind more weapon options for rev.

[Jski.6180]

I would do think it would be fun to have all weapons that an eleit spec can use on the core class. They would get no traits to effect thoughts weapons but being a "wepon rack" class as anet seems to want the core classes to be it would fit that they can use such weapons and get new weapons as they add in more elite spec. It would add in a real triad off for the elite spec as well to lose all other weapons from other elite spec.

It would be silly to give the elite spec them self all of the weapons as well.

I would love to see a core eng with sword shield or even hammer, a core ele with sword / WH, a core thf with rifle or staff, a core guard with long bow or axe etc.. they would all be base weapons though with no added effects from there elite spec that they come from.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It would already require extensive rework balance wise without the 3rd elite specialization alreadyI don't think it would, at least if we limited the unlock to core, and not the other especs. That's due to both those weapons not getting their supporting traits, and to core specs being generally weaker than elite ones. I'd be very, very surprised if unlocking espec weapons for core classes would cause those classes to suddenly be able to even

equal

especs, much less surpass them - and so i don't think any balance would be required.

Meaning the options are either redundant or worse: there are combinations which are overpowered.I don't follow.

Not to mention:

• removal of a reason to get expansions.Not if you had to fully unlock the espec on that character first - which is one of the most common suggestions for how it could be done.

• unbalance between core classes. Less an issue but even so, different core classes would have different benefits from access to elite spec weaponsThat's caused by the espec weapons already being unbalanced - some are good (for their especs), some are good for very narrow purposes, while some are generally trash level and aren;t used in any sensible build.

• a serious issue IF we ever should see more than 3 elite specializations per class because it limits new weapons to 1 skill set (unlike elites where theoretically the same weapon could be used again on the same class)That's indeed a potential problem, but i don't think we'd ever get enough especs to run into this issue. Frankly, i would be surprised if we got more than 2-3 before this game shuts down.

• this leads to a loss of access to a weapon once an elite specialization is selected. Which in its self leads to a complete new set of issue:
  1. this type of implementation would be very confusing for each and every new player and now suddenly certain weapons would need to be marked as only available in core or elite spec xyz
  2. loss of access to something which one had is actually worse than never having access to it in the first place. This would sour transition from core to elite specsfair enough, but see my comment to your "no reason to get expansions" above. You would start without those weapons, and would get them only after fully unlocking relevant espec, so, when transitioning from core to espec you would not be losing anything.

3. the forums would be full with the next idiotic idea of making elite spec weapons available at all time, and we are back to square oneSlippery slope fallacy.

I'm just not seeing it. This falls perfectly under one of those things:"Players have no clue of what they are actually asking for and are not taking the time to consider the implications this change would have."If you were to read all the previous threads about it, you'd see that most people asking for this have

very

good idea about implications and limitations of that proposal. It's actually more common to see people speaking up

against

it to not have the whole picture.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It would already require extensive rework balance wise without the 3rd elite specialization alreadyI don't think it would, at least if we limited the unlock to core, and not the other especs. That's due to both those weapons not getting their supporting traits, and to core specs being generally weaker than elite ones. I'd be very, very surprised if unlocking espec weapons for core classes would cause those classes to suddenly be able to even

equal

especs, much less surpass them - and so i don't think any balance would be required.

Meaning the options are either redundant or worse: there are combinations which are overpowered.I don't follow.

Simple, either the weapons are not useful, aka redundant. Or they are to useful and likely overpowered. The chance that the balanced spot in-between is met with nearly all of them is pretty much 0.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not to mention:

• removal of a reason to get expansions.Not if you had to fully unlock the espec on that character first - which is one of the most common suggestions for how it could be done.

Sure, that would address the issue of requiring the expansions. Would make the entire system even more convoluted: first you start without the espec weapons, then you need the correct expansion and espec mastered, then they become available for core class only. The system is fine as is.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• unbalance between core classes. Less an issue but even so, different core classes would have different benefits from access to elite spec weaponsThat's caused by the espec weapons already being unbalanced - some are good (for their especs), some are good for very narrow purposes, while some are generally trash level and aren;t used in any sensible build.

The vast majority of Espec weapons are being used and espec weapons in general have seen balance to the extent of making sure they get used. Now not every single weapon is balanced in such a way, but most often due to the role not being as important. In general espec weapons are on the more powerful side.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• a serious issue IF we ever should see more than 3 elite specializations per class because it limits new weapons to 1 skill set (unlike elites where theoretically the same weapon could be used again on the same class)That's indeed a potential problem, but i don't think we'd ever get enough especs to run into this issue. Frankly, i would be surprised if we got more than 2-3 before this game shuts down.

So because you can't imagine the game going on longer, there needs to be potential deliberately issues created now? Issues which need not be created in the first place?

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• this leads to a loss of access to a weapon once an elite specialization is selected. Which in its self leads to a complete new set of issue:
  1. this type of implementation would be very confusing for each and every new player and now suddenly certain weapons would need to be marked as only available in core or elite spec xyz
  2. loss of access to something which one had is actually worse than never having access to it in the first place. This would sour transition from core to elite specsfair enough, but see my comment to your "no reason to get expansions" above. You would start without those weapons, and would get them only after fully unlocking relevant espec, so, when transitioning from core to espec you would not be losing anything.

and every time you transition back to an espec you lose it again. You have to make that choice every single time.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

3. the forums would be full with the next idiotic idea of making elite spec weapons available at all time, and we are back to square oneSlippery slope fallacy.

Which is based on how reasonable of an assumption this fallacy might be. You don't get to just call "slipper slope fallacy" and then just ignore this argument. There is enough precedent and basis to make this assumption.

In fact, I'm quite sure if I went back and made a tally of how often the idea to have elite weapons be unlocked for core classes only versus just made available completely, the latter would win by a huge count. Not only because it is the more encompassing idea, but also because it is the more basic and less thought put in idea.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I'm just not seeing it. This falls perfectly under one of those things:"Players have no clue of what they are actually asking for and are not taking the time to consider the implications this change would have."If you were to read all the previous threads about it, you'd see that most people asking for this have

very

good idea about implications and limitations of that proposal. It's actually more common to see people speaking up

against

it to not have the whole picture.

Sorry but no. I'm not giving you this one. Not if you have read most of the threads in wanting espec weapons to become baseline. Not only core class baseline but demanding they become baseline for all builds. Even this thread and topic does NOT address these issues. I'm unsure how you can make this claim. Absolutely no.

In fact half the threads on this issue usually are nothing more than a "hey I want all weapons to be unlocked" opening threads without ANY comment or consideration how this should be accomplished. How developer resources should and could be devoted. How balance could be achieved and which weapons might need tuning. Zero zilch nada.

Then once challenged some come up with hasty ideas how something might work. Which is great, but shows that no consideration was put forth initially into the idea.

[moony.5780]

@Jski.6180 said:I think it would be nice to have it for Core classes only.

I think it would be extremly cool, if it was possible for core alone. It would make core classes feel fresh again, and someone can use a weapon without annoying new mechanics. I really hope i could play a core ele with sword...would be far less confusing and easier to react to the situation.

[Jski.6180]

@moony.5780 said:

@Jski.6180 said:I think it would be nice to have it for Core classes only.

I think it would be extremly cool, if it was possible for core alone. It would make core classes feel fresh again, and someone can use a weapon without annoying new mechanics. I really hope i could play a core ele with sword...would be far less confusing and easier to react to the situation.

Every new elite spec would also add something to core every time too. It would be like the core classes becoming a preview for the elite spec. Giving a real back and forward of new effects and not just core giving every thing to the elite spec.

[Leo G.4501]

Part of me can understand where the OP is coming from and overall I don't think it wouldn't be overly bad to the game's balance.

Another part of me feels it might set a precedence. How are utility skills different from weapon skills in that regards and how long would it be until those too are pushed to make available by default.

All in all, I do enjoy that picking specializations can make a build very different and that these choices you make for your build are more impactful than merely invisible cooldowns and a slight altering of your profession mechanic. It also keeps the option open for weapons to be highly tailored to the specialization or even pivotal in certain cases. Understandably, that last part might sound horrible but that's only because you haven't put thought into how to make it interesting and engaging yet.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

without regard for skill and profession skill balance:

i think that ALL CORE~ heavy armour classes should have access to sword, shield, and greatsword (2 sets)~ light armour classes should have access to staff, scepter, and focus (2 sets)~ medium armour classes should have access to shortbow, dagger, and axe (2 sets)

I also believe that all core classes should have access to at least one more class specific full-weapon set (for example, either a 2 hander or 2 one-handers) in order to complete a 5 (FIVE) full-weapon minimum over-land spec set choice.

AFTER each class gets it's full 5 full-weapon set for overland... THEN each class should get it's E-spec specific weapons.

but what do I know?... i've only been playing since day one of GW1, and since alpha of GW2

[Sarrs.4831]

It's a bad idea. You'll never see a new Elementalist mainhand weapon if you do it because they'd need to make another dozen Dual weapon skills every time they do it. Same with Thieves needing new Malicious attacks and Warriors needing new Primal Finishers.

[Jski.6180]

@Sarrs.4831 said:It's a bad idea. You'll never see a new Elementalist mainhand weapon if you do it because they'd need to make another dozen Dual weapon skills every time they do it. Same with Thieves needing new Malicious attacks and Warriors needing new Primal Finishers.

Most eles do use staff most of the time any way lol.

It would be fun to see what a core ele could do with sword/WH and what ever is coming next. I would not like to see tempest use a sword and a weaver use a WH though.

[kharmin.7683]

Most elementalists use staff most of the time? I doubt that's the case.

[Kodama.6453]

@kharmin.7683 said:Most elementalists use staff most of the time? I doubt that's the case.

Maybe not in the end game, but I could imagine that many players who just casually play GW2 will go for that weapon, simply because it is a staple in the mage archetype.Just like many thief players might be drawn towards dual wielding daggers or guardians could be drawn towards shields, maces and hammers because of the paladin archetype.

[SkyCake.4216]

My thoughts would be that core Engi still needs a MH power weapon despite gaining a heatless sword.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Jski.6180 said:Most eles do use staff most of the time any way lol.

Source?

And even if that was true how is that helping anyone? Staff is already available to all specs because it's a core weapon.

It would be fun to see what a core ele could do with sword/WH and what ever is coming next. I would not like to see tempest use a sword and a weaver use a WH though.

If most eles use staff then they won't use sword/WH would they?

[Jokubas.4265]

I would love to see any general increase in weapon options. Being able to mix and match is theoretically a huge draw of the game when it comes to making a build, but I'm consistently surprised at how limited some of the options are for some professions. So far this has never been addressed, as new weapons have only come with Elite Specializations, and Elite Specialization only ever add one weapon mutually exclusive with any others.

Also, the new weapons really don't contribute that much to the identity of the Elite Specializations in practice. Considering the connection between a weapon type and what it can actually do with skills is fairly arbitrary in this game (in a good, creative way, don't get me wrong), a new weapon doesn't really mean anything in particular on its own. Also, when a new weapon is something like an off-hand, it only adds two new skills anyway, so it hardly defines the spec. It's very easy to never even touch the new weapon.

The Chronomancer shield has a shield ability and a stun. Sure, the stun is "time stop" themed, but all Mesmers have access to the "speed up time"-themed "Temporal Curtain" on a Focus, so it's not a theme they don't already have. The Mirage axe, despite having a third skill, isn't any more tied to the spec's theme. It's just an axe that you do deceptive things with. What makes weapons special for the Mirage is the Ambush skill, but it gives that to all weapons, not just the new one.

[Westenev.5289]

Could be wrong, but the only elite spec weapons I could see used outside of their elite specs are Soulbeast Dagger (good dps alternitive to axe/sword) and Daredevil Staff (lazier than dagger/x variants). But the idea of what people might buildcraft intreagues me.

[Jski.6180]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:Most eles do use staff most of the time any way lol.

Source?

And even if that was true how is that helping anyone? Staff is already available to all specs because it's a core weapon.

It would be fun to see what a core ele could do with sword/WH and what ever is coming next. I would not like to see tempest use a sword and a weaver use a WH though.

If most eles use staff then they won't use sword/WH would they?

Well staff was the number one wepon for weaver for a long time till it was nerfed into the ground so sword took over. Anet realty bad at forgetting core classes weapons to make sure the elite spec can get best game play out of there wepon. If you let the core classes simply have the elite spec weapons too they will not be "as nerfed" by anet adding in another elite spec.