If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Krzysztof.5973]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"yukarishura.4790" said:

Most customers do not want training or to waste two hours a day/week/month learning the ropes.. Honestly they are there to play a game not to do training and homework.

aka receive rewards for 0 effort is what you want :)

Honestly, if that direction is what it would take to bring back raid development, I would have ZERO problem with that and I don't see why anyone else would either ... unless those people have some agenda to continue suppressing the idea of new raids being released.

Or maybe OP and others could stop pretending it was ever about "saving raids" when it's not, so then you can also stop repeating that people just "try to block change for the sake of blocking" (I mean...

"continue suppressing the idea of new raids being released"

) when they actually just want raids to be raids as opposed to

"replacing raids by something else so legendary armor could be easier to get [while keeping the appearance on the forum that it's for the sake of the raiders]"

.

That's how arguing with bad faith actors goes. Even if you present them with actual facts and statistics right up their faces, they refuse to accept reality and continue to push their agenda of hatred.

[Obtena.7952]

@yann.1946 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Dante.1508 said:I'm not sure hardcore raiders will like this but if you want more participation you need to make them easier, faster and less toxic/elitist. Those are the main reasons customers avoid them.

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

Most customers do not want training or to waste two hours a day/week/month learning the ropes.. Honestly they are there to play a game not to do training and homework.

aka receive rewards for 0 effort is what you want :)

Honestly, if that direction is what it would take to bring back raid development, I would have ZERO problem with that and I don't see why anyone else would either ... unless those people have some agenda to continue suppressing the idea of new raids being released.

They might have problems because that would be really detrimental to the longterm health of the game.

To be more precise, if what was needed to increase raid participation is to give all the rewards for free, it would be better to have raids die then increasing participation, as giving rewards for free would kill all other parts of the game.

So to start, I'm not actually thinking we are talking about people getting rewards for free ... that's just sensational language people use to start an argument and drown an idea.

What I'm saying is that if we are going to be honest, raid rewards and how they are given needs to be carefully considered if an idea is to move forward to broaden raid participation to justify future development. The whole idea that anything but the current approach deserves loot is simply an attempt to lock up the ideas.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Dante.1508 said:I'm not sure hardcore raiders will like this but if you want more participation you need to make them easier, faster and less toxic/elitist. Those are the main reasons customers avoid them.

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

Most customers do not want training or to waste two hours a day/week/month learning the ropes.. Honestly they are there to play a game not to do training and homework.

aka receive rewards for 0 effort is what you want :)

Honestly, if that direction is what it would take to bring back raid development, I would have ZERO problem with that and I don't see why anyone else would either ... unless those people have some agenda to continue suppressing the idea of new raids being released.

They might have problems because that would be really detrimental to the longterm health of the game.

To be more precise, if what was needed to increase raid participation is to give all the rewards for free, it would be better to have raids die then increasing participation, as giving rewards for free would kill all other parts of the game.

So to start, I'm not actually thinking we are talking about people getting rewards for free ... that's just sensational language people use to start an argument and drown an idea.

I think if we are going to be honest, raid rewards and how they are given needs to be carefully considered if an idea is to move forward to broaden raid participation to justify future development.

The idea is to influence actual raiding population instead of changing raids into something else for the sake of rewards themselves. People kept talking about easy mode with lower rewards and no legendaries/achievements as an actual stepping stone into raiding (and pve legendary armor) and what you come up with as an answer is that they want to continue blocking raid development. Noticed how your comment about "sensationalized language" above is pretty ironic in light of your previous post? Because I did.

[Mahou.3924]

@"Sobx.1758" said:The idea is to influence actual raiding population instead of changing raids into something else for the sake of rewards themselves. People kept talking about easy mode with lower rewards and no legendaries/achievements as an actual stepping stone into raiding (and pve legendary armor) and what you come up with as an answer is that they want to continue blocking raid development. Noticed how your comment about "sensationalized language" above is pretty ironic in light of your previous post? Because I did.

Better than your posts and idea of praying that the problem will solve itself and bashing any outgoing ideas with non-constructive trash, simply due to out of fear for losing their prestige and bragging rights.

[Sobx.1758]

@Mahou.3924 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:The idea is to influence actual raiding population instead of changing raids into something else for the sake of rewards themselves. People kept talking about easy mode with lower rewards and no legendaries/achievements as an actual stepping stone into raiding (and pve legendary armor) and what you come up with as an answer is that

they want to continue blocking raid development

. Noticed how your comment about "sensationalized language" above is pretty ironic in light of your previous post? Because I did.

Better than your posts and idea of praying that the problem will solve itself and bashing any outgoing ideas with non-constructive trash, simply due to out of fear for losing their prestige and bragging rights.

What you said here has little to do with what I (and others) wrote in this thread. You can pretend I didn't propose anything and just "prayed for the problem to solve itself", but that's just false. Read the thread, thanks.(and no, intentionally misrepresenting what others wrote "just because their idea doesn't include legendaries" isn't "better" by any means)

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Dante.1508 said:I'm not sure hardcore raiders will like this but if you want more participation you need to make them easier, faster and less toxic/elitist. Those are the main reasons customers avoid them.

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

Most customers do not want training or to waste two hours a day/week/month learning the ropes.. Honestly they are there to play a game not to do training and homework.

aka receive rewards for 0 effort is what you want :)

Honestly, if that direction is what it would take to bring back raid development, I would have ZERO problem with that and I don't see why anyone else would either ... unless those people have some agenda to continue suppressing the idea of new raids being released.

They might have problems because that would be really detrimental to the longterm health of the game.

To be more precise, if what was needed to increase raid participation is to give all the rewards for free, it would be better to have raids die then increasing participation, as giving rewards for free would kill all other parts of the game.

So to start, I'm not actually thinking we are talking about people getting rewards for free ... that's just sensational language people use to start an argument and drown an idea.

I think if we are going to be honest, raid rewards and how they are given needs to be carefully considered if an idea is to move forward to broaden raid participation to justify future development.

The idea is to influence actual raiding population...

No it's not. This thread has NOTHING to do with influencing the actual raiding population. That's simply not the topic being discussed here.

If the actual raiding population needs to be influenced to make raids sustainable content ... then that population isn't sufficient to make raids sustainable in the first place ... ergo, the discussion point of this thread.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Dante.1508 said:I'm not sure hardcore raiders will like this but if you want more participation you need to make them easier, faster and less toxic/elitist. Those are the main reasons customers avoid them.

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

Most customers do not want training or to waste two hours a day/week/month learning the ropes.. Honestly they are there to play a game not to do training and homework.

aka receive rewards for 0 effort is what you want :)

Honestly, if that direction is what it would take to bring back raid development, I would have ZERO problem with that and I don't see why anyone else would either ... unless those people have some agenda to continue suppressing the idea of new raids being released.

They might have problems because that would be really detrimental to the longterm health of the game.

To be more precise, if what was needed to increase raid participation is to give all the rewards for free, it would be better to have raids die then increasing participation, as giving rewards for free would kill all other parts of the game.

So to start, I'm not actually thinking we are talking about people getting rewards for free ... that's just sensational language people use to start an argument and drown an idea.

I think if we are going to be honest, raid rewards and how they are given needs to be carefully considered if an idea is to move forward to broaden raid participation to justify future development.

The idea is to influence actual raiding population...

No it's not. This thread has NOTHING to do with influencing the actual raiding population. That's simply not the topic being discussed here.

I think at one point we already had that "exchange". This might not be YOUR idea for saving raids. But you don't dictate the rules here and you're not setting the tone. People that would actually want to SAVE RAIDS would naturally want to preserve the current raid feeling and make it easier for MORE PEOPLE to join them. What you propose is CHANGING RAIDS INTO NOT RAIDS. This is NOT SAVING RAIDS.

If the actual raiding population needs to be influenced to make raids sustainable content ... then that population isn't sufficient to make raids sustainable in the first place ... ergo, the discussion point of this thread.

So you don't want to save raids, you want to REPLACE raids for the of rewards and nothing else.

Seriously, pretty sure I already wrote that, possibly to one of your similar posts :D

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Dante.1508 said:I'm not sure hardcore raiders will like this but if you want more participation you need to make them easier, faster and less toxic/elitist. Those are the main reasons customers avoid them.

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

Most customers do not want training or to waste two hours a day/week/month learning the ropes.. Honestly they are there to play a game not to do training and homework.

aka receive rewards for 0 effort is what you want :)

Honestly, if that direction is what it would take to bring back raid development, I would have ZERO problem with that and I don't see why anyone else would either ... unless those people have some agenda to continue suppressing the idea of new raids being released.

They might have problems because that would be really detrimental to the longterm health of the game.

To be more precise, if what was needed to increase raid participation is to give all the rewards for free, it would be better to have raids die then increasing participation, as giving rewards for free would kill all other parts of the game.

So to start, I'm not actually thinking we are talking about people getting rewards for free ... that's just sensational language people use to start an argument and drown an idea.

I think if we are going to be honest, raid rewards and how they are given needs to be carefully considered if an idea is to move forward to broaden raid participation to justify future development.

The idea is to influence actual raiding population...

No it's not. This thread has NOTHING to do with influencing the actual raiding population. That's simply not the topic being discussed here.

I think at one point we already had that "exchange". This might not be YOUR idea for saving raids.

It's not about what is my idea. It's the topic of the thread. If you want you discuss ways to save raids so they DON'T change, that's not this thread because the strategy here is to increase participation. You don't do that influencing the existing raid population or pretending something about raids doesn't change to do that.

You have a hangup that raids and their associated elements like rewards have to change to increase participation? Then you need to get over yourself a little bit because as normal, you haven't figured out this is a theoretical discussion.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Sobx.1758" said:What you said here has little to do with what I (and others) wrote in this thread. You can pretend I didn't propose anything and just "prayed for the problem to solve itself", but that's just false. Read the thread, thanks.I did point out already what you suggested, why, and how you admitted you never actually believed your suggestion is going to work (and never wanted it to be implemented). So, keep claiming otherwise. And keep insisting it's the others, never you, that misrepresent their position. I'm sure that attitude is going to help raids far more than actually proposing any solutions (even if some people may not like those). [/sarcasm]

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:What you said here has little to do with what I (and others) wrote in this thread. You can pretend I didn't propose anything and just "prayed for the problem to solve itself", but that's just false. Read the thread, thanks.I did point out already what you suggested

What you did there btw is admit that you keep misrepresenting what I say in this thread and claim I didn't come up with any ideas and immediatelly after that provided a proof that I DID come up with some. You're not the only one btw and the aim of doing that is pretty obvious: pretending that people that want to save raids instead of REPLACING them for easy access to pve legendary armor have malicious intents while they don't.

If you're back to responding to me, there's actually a post directed at you and your false claims about me somewhere on the previous page (I thnk) that you can respond to. :)

than actually proposing any solutions

Which "GIVE LEGENDARY ARMOR" is not.On the other hand trying to address problems brought up by other people... Yup, more so. And that's exactly what I did, whether you like it or not.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Dante.1508 said:I'm not sure hardcore raiders will like this but if you want more participation you need to make them easier, faster and less toxic/elitist. Those are the main reasons customers avoid them.

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

Most customers do not want training or to waste two hours a day/week/month learning the ropes.. Honestly they are there to play a game not to do training and homework.

aka receive rewards for 0 effort is what you want :)

Honestly, if that direction is what it would take to bring back raid development, I would have ZERO problem with that and I don't see why anyone else would either ... unless those people have some agenda to continue suppressing the idea of new raids being released.

They might have problems because that would be really detrimental to the longterm health of the game.

To be more precise, if what was needed to increase raid participation is to give all the rewards for free, it would be better to have raids die then increasing participation, as giving rewards for free would kill all other parts of the game.

So to start, I'm not actually thinking we are talking about people getting rewards for free ... that's just sensational language people use to start an argument and drown an idea.

I think if we are going to be honest, raid rewards and how they are given needs to be carefully considered if an idea is to move forward to broaden raid participation to justify future development.

The idea is to influence actual raiding population...

No it's not. This thread has NOTHING to do with influencing the actual raiding population. That's simply not the topic being discussed here.

I think at one point we already had that "exchange". This might not be YOUR idea for saving raids.

It's not about what is my idea. It's the topic of the thread.

And me as well as the others are addressing that topic, your claims that it's "not about increasing raid population" is based on nothing other than you trying to dismiss anything that's not based on "legendary for easy mode" idea, lmao. This is literally what you keep doing.

As far as this thread goes, I already told you people trying to force "lege for easy mode" aren't interested in raiding, let alone saving them and getting more. It was perfectly clear before, but here's the actual OP's opinion about "saving raids":https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1451711/#Comment_1451711

So... at least one person stopped pretending, I guess,.

If you want you discuss ways to save raids so they DON'T change, that's not this thread because the strategy here is to increase participation. You don't do that influencing the existing raid population

You know well that raids aren't being developed DUE TO LOW POPULATION. At the same time you try to claim that increasing raid participation is irrelevant. It definitely isn't. If people are scared of raiding or don't know where to start (a.k.a problems brought up by others which some of us try to address), then easy mode as a way to normal mode (and better rewards) adds people to the raiding community and saves raids.

You have a hangup that raids and their associated elements like rewards have to change to increase participation? Then you need to get over yourself a little bit because as normal, you haven't figured out this is a theoretical discussion.

Every discussion on this forum that tries to throw ideas at anet or other users is a "theoretical one". It doesn't change anything about what was said above and has nothing to do with different views on the issue. I don't know why you even keep bringing that "it's just theoretical" every few posts. Does it mean I have to agree with everything "because it's theoretical"?(actually spell it out for me: what "this thread being theoretical" is supposed to change about my or anyone's views?)

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:You know well that raids aren't being developed DUE TO LOW POPULATION.

Yes, i do. That's why this thread is targeting a sensible strategy to encouraging larger participation in raids. That why it's talking about influencing the existing raid population has no relevance in the thread.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:You know well that raids aren't being developed DUE TO LOW POPULATION.

Yes, i do. That's why this thread is targeting a sensible strategy to encouraging larger participation in raids. That why it's talking about influencing the existing raid population has no relevance in the thread.

It is about influencing existing raid population by bringing new players into it, nothing about that goal collides with the goal of the thread.

_(actually spell it out for me: what "this thread being theoretical" is supposed to change about my or anyone's views?)

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:You know well that raids aren't being developed DUE TO LOW POPULATION.

Yes, i do. That's why this thread is targeting a sensible strategy to encouraging larger participation in raids. That why it's talking about influencing the existing raid population has no relevance in the thread.

It is about influencing existing raid population by bringing new players into it, nothing about that goal collides with the goal of the thread.

Existing raid population are literally the current people that do raids, not the potential people that aren't. It's a problem with your language.

Regardless, however you want to label 'new raid people' (I'm just going to call them THEY)... if raids don't change, why would THEY be influenced to do raids if they haven't already done so? I don't really get the idea that raids or their associated elements can't change to influence THEY to participate in them. That would mean they aren't the same as current raids? OK ... not a problem. Obviously current raids and their implementation isn't working.

Again, you have a hangup raids and their associated elements like rewards have to change to increase participation from THEY. You shouldn't. It would need to happen.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:You know well that raids aren't being developed DUE TO LOW POPULATION.

Yes, i do. That's why this thread is targeting a sensible strategy to encouraging larger participation in raids. That why it's talking about influencing the existing raid population has no relevance in the thread.

It is about influencing existing raid population by bringing new players into it, nothing about that goal collides with the goal of the thread.

Existing raid population are literally the current people that do raids, not the potential people that aren't. It's a problem with your language.

No, it's not. It's your problem with actually understanding the goal of that action, which is new people > easy raiding > normal raiding. It does bring new people into raiding without making raids into something they aren't and actually positivaly influencing the existing popultion ON TOP of it. You're too hang up on legendary armor acquisition and isolated goal, so anything other than "new people into raids" is somehow automatically "missing the point of the thread" for you while it's not.

It would need to happen.

No, it wouldn't and what you keep repeating doesn't have much to do with "saving raids".

(actually spell it out for me: what "this thread being theoretical" is supposed to change about my or anyone's views? Seeing how you keep dodging, I guess... nothing -so at least now you can stop repeating it as if it's some major point disregarding anything anyone says jsut because you don't like it)

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:You know well that raids aren't being developed DUE TO LOW POPULATION.

Yes, i do. That's why this thread is targeting a sensible strategy to encouraging larger participation in raids. That why it's talking about influencing the existing raid population has no relevance in the thread.

It is about influencing existing raid population by bringing new players into it, nothing about that goal collides with the goal of the thread.

Existing raid population are literally the current people that do raids, not the potential people that aren't. It's a problem with your language.

It does bring new people into raiding without making raids into something they aren't and actually positivaly influencing the existing popultion ON TOP of it.

What is this 'it' that is going to bring THEY into raiding without changing how raids or their rewards work ... and why aren't THEY getting into raid NOW WITHOUT 'it'?

I don't really get the offense you take to people suggesting things have to change to encourage THEY to raid. If changes wouldn't need to happen to encourage more raiders, then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place. I mean, you say things don't need to change but somehow THEY will be encouraged to raid ... based on what?

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:You know well that raids aren't being developed DUE TO LOW POPULATION.

Yes, i do. That's why this thread is targeting a sensible strategy to encouraging larger participation in raids. That why it's talking about influencing the existing raid population has no relevance in the thread.

It is about influencing existing raid population by bringing new players into it, nothing about that goal collides with the goal of the thread.

Existing raid population are literally the current people that do raids, not the potential people that aren't. It's a problem with your language.

It does bring new people into raiding without making raids into something they aren't and actually positivaly influencing the existing popultion ON TOP of it.

What is this 'it' that is going to bring THEY into raiding without changing how raids or their rewards work ... and why aren't THEY getting into raid NOW WITHOUT 'it'?

It was already explained. Do you want me to re-explain every 3 days or you'll keep pretending nobody proposed anything and the only solution is "legendaries for easy mode" while anything else is irrelevant to the thread? Because that's what you seem to be doing.

I don't really get the offense you take

...what offense?What was that about using sensationalized terms again?

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:You know well that raids aren't being developed DUE TO LOW POPULATION.

Yes, i do. That's why this thread is targeting a sensible strategy to encouraging larger participation in raids. That why it's talking about influencing the existing raid population has no relevance in the thread.

It is about influencing existing raid population by bringing new players into it, nothing about that goal collides with the goal of the thread.

Existing raid population are literally the current people that do raids, not the potential people that aren't. It's a problem with your language.

It does bring new people into raiding without making raids into something they aren't and actually positivaly influencing the existing popultion ON TOP of it.

What is this 'it' that is going to bring THEY into raiding without changing how raids or their rewards work ... and why aren't THEY getting into raid NOW WITHOUT 'it'?

It was already explained.

I'm sure it was. Please just link the post where 'it' is defined so I can understand what your position is ... because frankly, it's quite easy to loose track of whatever idea you are talking about in these threads.

[Sobx.1758]

I'm not going to look for it for you, you can re-read this or last page if you want.Boils down to taking something people complained about and helping them with those complaints. Basically that's why they might feel inclined to try what they thought they "couldn't get into" before. Not complicated, really.

[Obtena.7952]

So it's your opinion that helping THEY with a thing they complained about is going to bring enough of THEY into raiding to justify bringing it back ... and this 'it' doesn't involve changing raids or the rewards they give. OK.

I mean, there are LOTS of things THEY complain about ... what makes 'it' THE thing to fix to get enough of THEY to come into raiding?

It's not complicated? Oh OK .. that's why Anet just jumped all over and got that 'it' going ingame before giving raids the heave ho right? See, here is my theory ... 'it' is complicated and 'it' probably isn't the 'it' that is needed because you better believe that if Anet was committed to providing raid content and if 'it' was the answer ... they would have done 'it'.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Obtena.7952" said:So it's your opinion that helping THEY with a thing they complained about is going to bring enough of THEY into raiding to justify bringing it back ... and this 'it' doesn't involve changing raids or the rewards they give. OK.

I mean, there are LOTS of things THEY complain about ... what makes 'it' THE thing to fix to get enough of THEY to come into raiding?

It's what I mostly see brought up as a problematic area. Not raiding itself, actually GETTING into raiding.

Now... what makes "legendary getting rewarded for easy mode" THE solution that somehow "saves raids" beside being just a "gimme gimme" request?

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So it's your opinion that helping THEY with a thing they complained about is going to bring enough of THEY into raiding to justify bringing it back ... and this 'it' doesn't involve changing raids or the rewards they give. OK.

I mean, there are LOTS of things THEY complain about ... what makes 'it' THE thing to fix to get enough of THEY to come into raiding?

It's what I mostly see brought up as a problematic area. Not raiding itself, actually GETTING into raiding.

Again, THEY aren't doing raids because a path to getting into it doesn't exist. THEY aren't doing it because that path is ALREADY discouraging and unappealing to them. This is why there needs to be a change for THEY to 'get into it' ... because THEY aren't going to do raids in their current implementation.

And also, I don't care how easy you want to make that path ... if the raid rewards aren't there for THEY, you just aren't paying attention to why THEY would do raid content REGARDLESS of how difficult it is for them to begin with since THEY have significant amounts of other content they are satisfied doing.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So it's your opinion that helping THEY with a thing they complained about is going to bring enough of THEY into raiding to justify bringing it back ... and this 'it' doesn't involve changing raids or the rewards they give. OK.

I mean, there are LOTS of things THEY complain about ... what makes 'it' THE thing to fix to get enough of THEY to come into raiding?

It's what I mostly see brought up as a problematic area. Not raiding itself, actually GETTING into raiding.

Again, THEY aren't doing raids because a path to getting into it doesn't exist. THEY aren't doing it because that path is ALREADY discouraging and unappealing to them. This is why there needs to be a change for THEY to 'get into it' ... because THEY aren't going to do raids in their current implementation.

You forgot you're not speaking for everyone and as I said, I base my response and supported possible-solution on what I've seen and read. Meanwhile you throw everyone into one bag and claim that's now what they complaint about because... Well, because it's not "legendaries for easy mode", I guess. Not sure why you feel entitled to making claims you're making for everyone.

I guess it's a difference between trying to find an answer "if you wanted to keep raids, how would you increase participation?" vs "how would you want your legendary armor acquired easier?". I'm interested just in the first question. You and some of the people here apprently are not (and in case of some people it's just absolutely clear).

And also, I don't care how easy you want to make that path

I don't care you don't care, apparently this is not for you. If you just want to keep asking for legendary armor, try another thread, because this one's not about that. At least clearly shouldn't be.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Sobx.1758 said:No, it's not. It's your problem with actually understanding the goal of that action, which is new people > easy raiding > normal raiding. It does bring new people into raiding without making raids into something they aren't and actually positivaly influencing the existing popultion ON TOP of it.You already mentioned you do not believe there's any real reason why people that are interested in raids as they are currently cannot move to them now (which, btw, i agree completely. The people do not raid not because there's no path to raid, but because there's something about current raids that doesn't appeal to them), and that you don't think introducing easy mode would change anything. Explain, then, how do you expect introducing something you don;t believe can make a difference can make a difference?

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:I mean, there are LOTS of things THEY complain about ... what makes 'it' THE thing to fix to get enough of THEY to come into raiding?

It's what I mostly see brought up as a problematic area. Not raiding itself, actually GETTING into raiding.So, the very same thing you bring up as being a completely fake argument... Yeah. That's definitely consistent logic, all right.

As i see it, it's impossible to improve raid population in any meaningful way without bringing in people that currently are not interested in that content. Or that can't get into it not because there's no pathway (because there is a path), but because the content itself is impossible for them to enter (again, for multitude of reasons, none of which involve lack of "stepping stones"). And for that, you cannot leave raids as they are - something needs to change. The only question is what.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

Next time you quote me, try actually responding to the post instead of doing whatever you're doing while disregarding what I write. Again. :)

If you want me to repeat what I wrote above, then just go read the posts above instead of pinging me with something I already answered to.And most of all feel free to stop pretending you care about saving raids, when it's clear what your goal here is. Not like your act works anyways.