If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Dante.1508]

I'm not sure hardcore raiders will like this but if you want more participation you need to make them easier, faster and less toxic/elitist. Those are the main reasons customers avoid them.

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

Most customers do not want training or to waste two hours a day/week/month learning the ropes.. Honestly they are there to play a game not to do training and homework.

[Xerac.1542]

Okay, let's just try to resolve this by showing you guys the other side.IF YOU ARE ON EUStarting Sunday 18.04.21 9:00 cest we will do W1 over and over until it is done.I will play Hfb/alac/hsc/dps depending on what I feel like. You bring what you feel like.No LI/KP.No skipping mechanics by outheal.No need for discord, if you don't want.Just hit me up in game or in here.Let's see how it goes.

[Xerac.1542]

@Dante.1508 said:I'm not sure hardcore raiders will like this but if you want more participation you need to make them easier, faster and less toxic/elitist. Those are the main reasons customers avoid them.

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

Most customers do not want training or to waste two hours a day/week/month learning the ropes.. Honestly they are there to play a game not to do training and homework.

This really reads like "give players rewards without having to do anything for it"Already ~95% of the game offers already exactly that. Raids are fundamentally mea t to be the content you need to invest time to learn.That is the fun about it. Learning how to defeat the big bad evil guy at the end.And the community effort done by SC and others has already made it a lot easier.Read half a page - - > try doing it few time - - >success

Instead of going in blind and really wiping over and over without knowing how it is possible to defeat the boss.

[Linken.6345]

@Xerac.1542 said:Okay, let's just try to resolve this by showing you guys the other side.IF YOU ARE ON EUStarting Sunday 18.04.21 9:00 cest we will do W1 over and over until it is done.I will play Hfb/alac/hsc/dps depending on what I feel like. You bring what you feel like.No LI/KP.No skipping mechanics by outheal.No need for discord, if you don't want.Just hit me up in game or in here.Let's see how it goes.

My guess you will fill the squad with 90% bored raiders and do it easily.

[Fueki.4753]

@"Firebeard.1746" said:They're not at all irrelevant. Believe it or not, GW2 is competing in the MMOspace of gaming.That's like saying Dark Souls competes with old school (turn-based) Final Fantasy, modern (active combat) Final Fantasy, Tales of Series and even Pokémon, just because they all are JRPGs. But we know that isn't the case.But in reality, like all these JRPGs target different kinds of players, so do GW2, FF14 and WoW target different players.

There are overlaps between the target groups, because individual people usually like more than one kind of game within a genre.But good and decent games don't target only said overlapping people.

It's a terrible thing for new players to come and open LFGs full of KP reqs and sales for clears that are astronomical amounts of gold. And the LFG tool would be perhaps one of the first ways a new player would try to get into them.I personally feel the amount of raid sellers and the (perceived) lack of training advertisement in the LFG tool are worse than the top-end restrictions.

They may not be aware of Discords, snow crows, etc.Depending on outsides sources to keep the mode alive is not the worst thing, but it's not necessarily good either.Outside sources simply widen the rift between top end raiders and players who still hold onto the original promise of "play how you want", a promise fundamentally incompatible with current raids.

[Mahou.3924]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Here's what can change though: people that want to be rewarded for completing the content can learn and complete that content.Yes, that's the magical thinking here. You are putting all hopes on the one thing that neither you, nor Anet have any control over. And which is extremely unlikely to change on its own barring a miracle (which is why i called it magical thinking).

If pretending that's all that has been said here is what you really want to do, then I'll go the same way about it:Yes, that's the magical thinking in your posts: claming that putting easy mode with easly accessible legendary armor somehow fixes raids, grows popularity and makes anet release more encounters. Yeeee, that's totally what would happen, super easy, raiding community SAVED and you're the savior they were clearly actively looking for.

How about offering something substantial outside of hoping that "If people want to raid, they try it and stay", instead of being obnoxious?Offering legendary armor in "easy mode" might not be the ultimate solution, but it would be a useful step to get people hooked. Hook them with extrinsical rewards and hope they stay for intrinsical motivations. Ideally, they should go from "Oh look, I can get shinies here" to "Oh, this content isn't too bad! Wait, I can get shinies faster if I can handle the normal mode?" to "F yeah! Beating X with my group was great. Let's do it again". Obviously, this won't work for everyone. People only in for shinies and story, will do it once/as long as needed and be gone forever, no matter what you do.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Tyson.5160 said:I don’t know, I tend to disagree with Cyninja on this topic, but even Cyn posted an elaborate explanation on their view, that I can respect.Because Cyninja is a person you can have a reasonable discussion with, even if you sometimes (or even very often) disagree on most points. Not all posters however are like this.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Sobx.1758" said:No matter how hard you'll try to pretend this is what people disagreeing with your approach are doing, this is clearly falseSo, please, do tell me what exactly are you "doing" about the issue? What idea do you have that will improve things? One that is not based around things you and devs have no control of, i mean, because "why don't just people start liking raids more" can be hardly considered a serious solution.

[Xerac.1542]

@"Linken.6345" that is my guess too, but I wanted to give them the opportunity to see it is not all hardly locked content "the raiders" wall off like tengu do with their precious dominion.But yeah whatever, none of them is ever going to join, because joining a squad is not how they want to play the game or whatever.I honestly gave up long ago and that is a reason I usually no longer join pugs with no LI

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I don’t know, I tend to disagree with Cyninja on this topic, but even Cyn posted an elaborate explanation on their view, that I can respect.Because Cyninja

is

a person you can have a reasonable discussion with, even if you sometimes (or even very often) disagree on most points. Not all posters however are like this.

Why thank you.

I think it is always important to remember, even with all the forum drama and back and forth, in most cases players want what they believe is best for the game. Discussion then arises over contrasting subjective opinions and experiences everyone has.

While I often have diverging opinions on issues with different forum members, I don't doubt most players dedication and passion for the game.

I'm also well aware I am not always right. Best example: I was against the implementation of mounts back in the day (thinking of an implementation similar to other games). I lacked the foresight and imagination that the developers brought forth with the way mounts got implemented (and I believe GW2 has the best mount system among any MMORPG today). Am I happy I was wrong? Oh absolutely, how petty would I have to be if not. Mounts are amazing (personal opinion).

The same can apply to other content.

[yann.1946]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I don’t know, I tend to disagree with Cyninja on this topic, but even Cyn posted an elaborate explanation on their view, that I can respect.Because Cyninja

is

a person you can have a reasonable discussion with, even if you sometimes (or even very often) disagree on most points. Not all posters however are like this.

Why thank you.

I think it is always important to remember, even with all the forum drama and back and forth, in most cases players want what they believe is best for the game. Discussion then arises over contrasting subjective opinions and experiences everyone has.

While I often have diverging opinions on issues with different forum members, I don't doubt most players dedication and passion for the game.

I'm also well aware I am not always right. Best example: I was against the implementation of mounts back in the day (thinking of an implementation similar to other games). I lacked the foresight and imagination that the developers brought forth with the way mounts got implemented (and I believe GW2 has the best mount system among any MMORPG today). Am I happy I was wrong? Oh absolutely, how petty would I have to be if not. Mounts are amazing (personal opinion).

The same can apply to other content.

I think it also important to see that in the case of mounts you where not nessecarily wrong perse. As in you made the best conclusion with the information available.

I see to many people think they where right about something because their conclusion turned out to be true even though the logic was broken beyond belief.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Tyson.5160" said:I don’t know, I tend to disagree with Cyninja on this topic, but even Cyn posted an elaborate explanation on their view, that I can respect.

I don't know, looks to me that you've tried pretending I didn't propose anything, then claimed you've read the posts again and concluded I DID propose a change, but for some reason it doesn't count because... who knows what ("Doesn't seem you want change and change you did want..."). Now you're making some backhanded remarks about "even Cyninja" that tells me nothing, because his take was "elaborate", but multiple of my posts talking about why I think "version a is better than version b" is not good enough or w/e. What else do you even want from me here? (and that is not a rhetorical question)

---

@Dante.1508 said:I'm not sure hardcore raiders will like this but if you want more participation you need to make them easier, faster and less toxic/elitist. Those are the main reasons customers avoid them.

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

So... something like strikes perhaps? Which didn't really work?

And I agree with @Xerac.1542 response to this post.

---

@Mahou.3924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Here's what can change though: people that want to be rewarded for completing the content can learn and complete that content.Yes, that's the magical thinking here. You are putting all hopes on the one thing that neither you, nor Anet have any control over. And which is extremely unlikely to change on its own barring a miracle (which is why i called it magical thinking).

If pretending that's all that has been said here is what you really want to do, then I'll go the same way about it:Yes, that's the magical thinking in your posts: claming that putting easy mode with easly accessible legendary armor somehow fixes raids, grows popularity and makes anet release more encounters. Yeeee, that's totally what would happen, super easy, raiding community SAVED and you're the savior they were clearly actively looking for.

How about offering something substantial outside of hoping that "If people want to raid, they try it and stay", instead of being obnoxious?

I already did, maybe try reading through the thread instead of being obnoxious by just hopping on the last page.

[yann.1946]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they

don't

want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.

As such, there's no real discussion to be had, as there's no way to make necessary changes without changing one of those things that should never be touched.

Here's what can change though: people that want to be rewarded for completing the content can learn and complete that content.But I guess they're not willing to learn

because it takes time

(despite them claiming it's not about the time at all,

so just give me the same rewards over slightly longer period of time in easy mode?

)...

This is a solution which never works. This is the personal responsibility meme. A population doesn't change behaviour without changes in environment

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:No matter how hard you'll try to pretend this is what people disagreeing with your approach are doing, this is clearly falseSo, please, do tell me what exactly are

you

"doing" about the issue? What idea do

you

have that will improve things?

What are you even doing right now? I already wrote that in the last pages and it was an opinion that some of the others in this thread share. You were responding to those posts. Stop pretending I didn't say anything or that you're somehow unaware of it just because you didn't like it, thanks.

[Tyson.5160]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I don’t know, I tend to disagree with Cyninja on this topic, but even Cyn posted an elaborate explanation on their view, that I can respect.Because Cyninja

is

a person you can have a reasonable discussion with, even if you sometimes (or even very often) disagree on most points. Not all posters however are like this.

Why thank you.

I think it is always important to remember, even with all the forum drama and back and forth, in most cases players want what they believe is best for the game. Discussion then arises over contrasting subjective opinions and experiences everyone has.

While I often have diverging opinions on issues with different forum members, I don't doubt most players dedication and passion for the game.

I'm also well aware I am not always right. Best example: I was against the implementation of mounts back in the day (thinking of an implementation similar to other games). I lacked the foresight and imagination that the developers brought forth with the way mounts got implemented (and I believe GW2 has the best mount system among any MMORPG today). Am I happy I was wrong? Oh absolutely, how petty would I have to be if not. Mounts are amazing (personal opinion).

The same can apply to other content.

It’s just nice to have a discussion with opposing ideals and not be mocked for that.

I appreciate it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Sobx.1758" said:What are you even doing right now? I already wrote that in the last pages and it was an opinion that some of the others in this thread share. You were responding to those posts. Stop pretending I didn't say anything or that you're somehow unaware of it just because you didn't like it, thanks.I truly, truly didn't want to go in there, but if you insist:

In the whole thread up until that point, you made 36 posts.

The posts in which you suggested something relevant to the goal of the thread:

Second post:Easy mode only if it has no rewards/achievements

Third post:

Easy/training mode would allow people to get into raids if they're too scared to even try/learn them now.

Fourth post:

implementing easy mode without rewards

Fifth:

Easy/training mode would allow people to get into raids if they're too scared to even try/learn them now

fourteenth:

The idea is to bring people into normal raids and easy mode/lower rewards would help making a push from easy to normal.

sixteenth:

Not trying to get people into actual normal raiding experience is a mistake and does nothing.

nineteenth:

introdusing training mode as a stepping stone to get people into raiding AND related with it rewards

Up to this point it doesn't sound so bad. I mean, i would disagree that this approach would work, as the easy/training mode you seem to support in those points would offer absolutely no incentive for people to even try it, but it's still a suggestion that can be argued about.

It's the other posts that put the above in proper context

first:

if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it

Seventh:admitting that you don't actualy think there's a point to training raids (because according to you they don't introduce anything training-wise that is not already available in the game, i.e. through strikes), and only agree with their introduction (after removing any incentive to actually run them, of course) just as a "compromise"

tenth:

Easy mode would also change how raids play, so it wouldn't be raids anymore. So easy mode is off the table, I guess because it interferes with how raids are meant to be played.

twenty first:

there's no problem with getting into raids for people that want to

24th:

I disagree about Strikes being actual good "training for specific raids encounters"andIt IS solved by simply participating in training squads

27thhere you doubt the problem of getting into raids is even real.

So, all your input into this whole thread is offering a suggestion you yourself admit is neither needed, nor you believe will even work (and one of the posts you made strongly suggests you don't actually want it to be implemented at all). Especially since you don't seem to believe the main problem such a training mode might solve (people having trouble into learning raids) even exists.

In fact, if we look back more closely, we can see that the idea of easy/training raids is not even something you would propose. You only responded to someone else, and the whole point of that initial post was not to agree with the idea, but only to state that they should offer no incentives.

Oh, and in one of the earlier posts you also made a comment that you'd rather see raids dead that open them wider, which also puts all the above in another context.

SO, again: your ideas won't work, you are completely aware about it, but you will still stand against anything that might actually help, because you;d rather see the content fail than lose the magical "raid" feeling, preserving which seems more important to you than its future.

[Sobx.1758]

Oh look, so I DID give some ideas despite you pretending I didn't :o So did you forget about it in your previous post? Intentionally lied for people that didn't read through the thread, but just opted for the last page? Downplayed what others write because they dislike YOUR idea? Which one was it?

@"Astralporing.1957" said:SO, again: your ideas won't work, you are completely aware about it, but you will still stand against anything that might actually help, because you;d rather see the content fail than lose the magical "raid" feeling, preserving which seems more important to you than its future.

So you've pretended I didn't give out any ideas because you disagree with them and judged them inefficient? Seems like "your opinion on disliking any other approach than yours" and not "me not giving any idea in the thread".

All you did in this thread (and not only here) was repeat and argue about "making some unspecified easy mode with legendary armor as reward", which will also not work.What now?

---

So, all your input into this whole thread is offering a suggestion you yourself admit is neither needed

And btw this is based on fractions of my posts pulled out of context. If you actually read the whole posts, you'll notice how my previous posts were attempt at fixing the problems other people brought up, so "me thinking it's not even a real problem" is irrelevant as it didn't change my attempts at solving something that was deemed a problem by other people. Apparently pulling stuff out of context is your hobby, but I'm not amused by it.Meanwhile you keep jumping between the threads trying to make "a legendary armor being a reward for any limited content anyone might want to play" and then you end up in this thread arguing exactly that while pretending it's somehow about "saving raids". It's not, you're not trying to save raids and you already presented your main goal in other threads as well.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Sobx.1758" said:So you've pretended I didn't give out any ideas because you disagree with them and judged them inefficient?No. I said that because you straight out admitted you don't believe in them working yourself, don't really want them implemented, and are mentioning them only as a "compromise". And that the thing that you are really interested in is preserving raid feel. Even if the cost of that would be that content failing.

This ends my interaction with you in this thread, as you basically admitted that you;re not arguing in good faith. As such, i see no point continuing to respond to you anymore.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:So you've pretended I didn't give out any ideas

because you disagree with them and judged them inefficient

?you don't believe in them working yourself, don't really want them implemented

That's false.

and are mentioning them only as a "compromise".

Only to the person that claimed there's "no compromise" just because people have different approach than he has. It's almost as that "compromise" thing doesn't work just one way.

And that the thing that you are really interested in is preserving raid feel.

Of course I want to "preserve raid feel", why wouldn't I? "changing raids into something they're not" is not "saving raids", it's replacing them. And if you want something other than raids, there's a lot of different content which I also listed (probably in this thread too, but not sure at this point).I've literally already wrote about that, just go re-read the posts instead of pulling parts of them out of context.

But if preserving how raids feel is a problem for you then that -again- just shows you're not here to "save raids", but to "get easy legendary armor". Content that's similar-but-different-or-just-easier-than-raids is already in the game and you are free to go play through it if that "easier content" is your "end goal" (but it's not, because we know what your end goal is -and it's not in the title of this thread).

as you basically admitted that you;re not arguing in good faith.

That's also a lie, if trying to fix problems that are mentioned by OTHER PEOPLE [while also trying to fix overal participation in the content itself] is somehow "in bad faith", then not sure what is suposed to be "a good faith". It seems the only thing you think is "in good faith" is just blindly agreeing with your opinions, but that's not how it works.

[maddoctor.2738]

Honestly, the question "If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?" has a rather "simple" answer: bring more players to the game. More players joining = more players insterested in Raids (the law of average at play)

[LucianDK.8615]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Honestly, the question "If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?" has a rather "simple" answer: bring more players to the game. More players joining = more players insterested in Raids (the law of average at play)

Wow have a lot more players than gw2, and they too were struggling to justify developing more raids as the majority of players just wouldnt go there. Hence the addition of looking for raid. Tourist mode is essentially what gw2 needs if raid content will have any future at all.

[Obtena.7952]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Honestly, the question "If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?" has a rather "simple" answer: bring more players to the game. More players joining = more players insterested in Raids (the law of average at play)

In theory, that's one approach ... if something would change to double the amount of players in the game, then in theory, the number of players in raids would double. The problem there is that there needs to be a critical number players to make raid content sustainable and we already know that this threshold was breached long ago; in otherwords, it's likely that the RELATIVE number of players raiding isn't large enough to achieve whatever critical number of players is needed so raids can sustain over the long term. What happens when the population falls again? ... ANSWER: failed raids version 2. An increase in population that will eventually decrease is not a long term solution for raid development. This 'option' is short sighted and would only be promoted by people desperate for 'just one more' raid release.

The OTHER approach is to have more GS offerings targeting raiders. They buy more, the revenue from raiders goes up ... easier to justify raid development AS IS. The problem there is that there is an opportunity cost when choosing content to add to the GS and It's unlikely that an item targeting raiders would generate more revenue than something that targets non-specific players. if the goal is to maximize revenue ... forget about raid-specific GS offerings.

These options are questionable. If raid development is to be resurrected, it needs to change to appeal to more of the people that are currently playing it.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Obtena.7952 said:The OTHER approach is to have more GS offerings targeting raiders.

The only offering they could offer on the GS to target raiders and only raiders is gonna be more Raids. Like, sell new Raid wings on the gem store like they do with episodes that you've missed. Raids unlock permanently, even if you've missed the episode they were released on. That was probably a mistake, they could've bundled them with the episode itself, to at least boost episode sales for those that want the Raid wing (and a lot of people would want it to finish their legendary) But that's in the past, for future Raids a solution like that would require making more Raids first, which is unlikely to be used as the first option. But who knows, maybe they will start offering (niche) content on the gem store and if it proves successful enough use it to make more Raids too.

[Obtena.7952]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The OTHER approach is to have more GS offerings targeting raiders.

The only offering they could offer on the GS to target raiders and only raiders is gonna be more Raids. Like, sell new Raid wings on the gem store like they do with episodes that you've missed.

I didn't forget that option ... it's just highly likely that such an option would be ridiculously priced and no one would buy it because of the relatively low number of people that do raids and the existence of current raids that they could get similar rewards. I mean, if Anet sets the price for a LS episode to ... 400 gems I think ... how much do you think a Raid would cost?

Honestly, why would someone pay ... 1000's or maybe even 10,000's of gems for a new raid? Because it's not going to be hundred's. niche content is going to be ABSURDLY expensive ... and what does it give you as a raider? A few new skins? A short thrill until you master it after doing it a few times? You're going to pay for that ..

[maddoctor.2738]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The OTHER approach is to have more GS offerings targeting raiders.

The only offering they could offer on the GS to target raiders and only raiders is gonna be more Raids. Like, sell new Raid wings on the gem store like they do with episodes that you've missed.

I didn't forget that option ... it's just highly likely that such an option would be ridiculously priced and no one would buy it because of the relatively low number of people that do raids and the existence of current raids that they could get similar rewards. I mean, if Anet sets the price for a LS episode to ... 400 gems I think ... how much do you think a Raid would cost?

Honestly, why would someone pay ... 1000's or maybe even 10,000's of gems for a new raid? Because it's not going to be hundred's.

Bundling them with the episodes would be a good first step. Instead of having them unlocked for everyone when they are released.