If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

mindcircus.1506 · April 15, 2021

@Sobx.1758 said:I agree that if they don't think it's worth it for them then they can play whatever they want and I have no problem with that. I just think they should just stop pretending it's about saving raids.And in this I agree completely.

The vast majority of suggestions in this thread are indeed tired armchair deving that uses false rhetoric to justify better rewards for doing less.Something this game already has covered in spades.

Astralporing.1957 · April 15, 2021

@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they don't want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.

As such, there's no real discussion to be had, as there's no way to make necessary changes without changing one of those things that should never be touched.

Obtena.7952 · April 15, 2021

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they
don't
want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.

As such, there's no real discussion to be had, as there's no way to make necessary changes without changing one of those things that should never be touched.

Frankly, I think raids are done ... we aren't getting new ones and if things aren't going to change, we shouldn't get new ones in the future. That doesn't prevent us from voicing our opinion about what could have been done to address the issues that likely led to that result. There IS value in doing so with the hope that Anet doesn't repeat the same mistake a second time with some other group instanced content ... OR raids version 2, whatever those might be. For me, that IS a real discussion because I don't think there is a place for players spending on the game going to content that many people aren't engaged in (which AT LEAST lead to the right decision for canning raids).

It's clear some people want to prevent that discussion because they are worried the discussion will have some real impact to current raid implementation. I guess they are worried their raid run incomes drying up or it degrades their false perception of 'value' for owning Lge. Armor.

Cyninja.2954 · April 15, 2021

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they
don't
want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.

As such, there's no real discussion to be had, as there's no way to make necessary changes without changing one of those things that should never be touched.

Only true if one restricts the thinking and argument to the dominant items repeated in this thread.

Maybe some players are hoping for changes in other areas which might, or might not, result in the content being "saved". Unfortunately the opinions on why the content has problems right now also differ.

For example in my case, I strongly believe that raids would be fine with:A. a higher player base, which is unrelated to raids per se but rather much more a factor of lacking expansions and player totalsB. a more reliable schedule of raid releases would help in maintaining the content and player base (we know that lack of content comes at player retention. This is visible in all segments of this game)C. reward incentives more in line with legendary armor from W1-4 and/or a more long-term or replay friendly solution to rewards would also incentivize longer player interaction (this is actually a game wide issue and not unique to raids, and was to some extent tackled with less maps during IBS. The past model of constantly releasing new maps is not sustainable and some way of rotating content and keeping players active in content is becoming more and more of an issue)

Notice that NONE of these points have anything to do with any different type of raid getting introduced. All of these points which could be discussed obviously are being drowned out by the constant focus on easy more raids and most importantly easier access to PvE legendary armor.

Then again, I also have a very different opinion on why raids are where they are to begin with compared to others who argue that easy mode is the only way to go.

Sobx.1758 · April 15, 2021

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they
don't
want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.

As such, there's no real discussion to be had, as there's no way to make necessary changes without changing one of those things that should never be touched.

Here's what can change though: people that want to be rewarded for completing the content can learn and complete that content.But I guess they're not willing to learn because it takes time (despite them claiming it's not about the time at all, so just give me the same rewards over slightly longer period of time in easy mode?)... They also pretend it's too hard to get into raiding, but if the training mode doesn't reward legendary gear then it's suddenly not about that AT ALL and that problem isn't even real anymore (no problem, I agree it's not an actual problem and I'm sorry for giving anyone the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't a made out complaint -my bad). They can also paint themselves as greatly fascinated by the raid content and wanting more (all for the community they don't want to be a part of, duh!) despite them not even trying at the current "normal" iteration as they are intended to be played. They also say "it's just for the lore" which they shouldn't be cut off from -but I guess legendary armor is crucial to keep their interest in the story, so no armor = no lore and suddenly it's also not enough.

It's all just "take" for them and it's never enough, so there really is no real discussion to be had here.

See, despite of what you'd like to sarcastically suggest, this easly works both ways.

Firebeard.1746 · April 15, 2021

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they
don't
want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.

As such, there's no real discussion to be had, as there's no way to make necessary changes without changing one of those things that should never be touched.

Here's what can change though: people that want to be rewarded for completing the content can learn and complete that content.But I guess they're not willing to learn

because it takes time

(despite them claiming it's not about the time at all,

so just give me the same rewards over slightly longer period of time in easy mode?

)... They also pretend it's too hard to get into raiding, but if the training mode doesn't reward legendary gear then it's suddenly not about that AT ALL and that problem isn't even real anymore (no problem, I agree it's not an actual problem and I'm sorry for giving anyone the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't a made out complaint -my bad). They can also paint themselves as greatly fascinated by the raid content and wanting more (all for the community they don't want to be a part of, duh!) despite them not even trying at the current "normal" iteration as they are intended to be played. They also say "it's just for the lore" which they shouldn't be cut off from -but I guess legendary armor is crucial to keep their interest in the story, so no armor = no lore and suddenly it's also not enough.

It's all just "take" for them and it's never enough, so there really is no real discussion to be had here.

See, despite of what you'd like to sarcastically suggest, this easly works both ways.

Let's be really clear here, it's not them not wanting to be part of the community, it's the exclusivity that's the core issue. Almost all other content in GW2 is puggable and designed to be so, casual play was built into the DNA of this game. If you want to PuG raids you're staring down the barrel of endless training runs waiting for that one person to not mess up the pony trick mechanic that insta kills the whole raid, YOU MUST BE IN A STATIC Which violates the casual nature that GW2 tried so hard to build or you're some jerk requiring 100 kp on every run (requiring KP is "I don't want to put in the effort for a static, but I still expect instant rewards instantly, without interacting with the community" ). And stop kidding yourselves: anyone who's done Drakkar has broken a bar or dodged a mechanic, most players can do that. It's the design of GW2 raid mechanics that prevent them from being done in the types of groups that people normally play in and I believe this was by design, anet didn't have an ilvl mechanic to gate things behind, so they chose severely punishing mechanics that take a while to learn as a way to compensate, but it's backfired horribly for everyone.

Why would raiders be so angry about people getting a reward, YEARS after it's been released over a MUCH longer time? Like see to me, the way you're talking here is YOU WANT RAIDING TO BE VERY EXCLUSIVE, YET YOU STILL EXPECT ANET TO TURN OUT CONTENT FOR YOU. If you expect that, you all should ask anet how many millions they need from that 2% of the community donated to the dev work required.

The two most popular MMOs outside of GW2 FFXIV and WoW all have different difficulty levels for raids to allow a spectrum of skill levels. It's actually baffling to me that anet didn't have that from the get-go, especially considering the type of appeal they went for in the game as a whole. Why are WoW and other hardcore MMOs casual friendly in this regard but not Anet? does that make sense in the context of what GW2 was designed to be? I feel like this game is one of the few last bastions of raiding elitism. I don't want anything taken from raiders, and I'm not advocating that, but this just doesn't make sense. Not in terms of the game's design nor it's intended progression systems (legendaries are the carrot on the stick for this game, locking non-raiders out of them locks them out of one more carrot on the stick, essentially booting them to other content or out of the game when they're bored).

My biggest issue right now with raids is I've done enough to have random collection pieces for both coalesence and the armor that there's junk eternally stuck in my inventory, but I can not be bothered with any of the 3 options (endless PuGs, I'd be better off in WOW), statics (i'd be better off in WoW) or being jerk (why bother playing?). Basically arenanet has punished me with junk eternally in my inventory with the hope I'll eventually complete it, or I destroy it and can never complete the collection, but hell, at least I'll get my inventory slots back. It's awful design. That's really the only reason I want rewards tied to them, I want to be able to eventually get rid of that stuff and i don't want to put coalesence on a character because I'm afraid I'll lose track of it as a precursor and inadvertently destroy it for matrices. TBH imo the armors, while having unique animations, are starting to show their age and a cash shop and/or LWS skin probably looks better imo.

also I'm freaking pissed I've killed Mathias a few times BUT because I didn't do the thing the weeks I did, I still have to do that part of the collection (which I believe some of the junk in my inventory is tied to).

Sobx.1758 · April 15, 2021

@Firebeard.1746 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they
don't
want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.

As such, there's no real discussion to be had, as there's no way to make necessary changes without changing one of those things that should never be touched.

Here's what can change though: people that want to be rewarded for completing the content can learn and complete that content.But I guess they're not willing to learn

because it takes time

(despite them claiming it's not about the time at all,

so just give me the same rewards over slightly longer period of time in easy mode?

)... They also pretend it's too hard to get into raiding, but if the training mode doesn't reward legendary gear then it's suddenly not about that AT ALL and that problem isn't even real anymore (no problem, I agree it's not an actual problem and I'm sorry for giving anyone the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't a made out complaint -my bad). They can also paint themselves as greatly fascinated by the raid content and wanting more (all for the community they don't want to be a part of, duh!) despite them not even trying at the current "normal" iteration as they are intended to be played. They also say "it's just for the lore" which they shouldn't be cut off from -but I guess legendary armor is crucial to keep their interest in the story, so no armor = no lore and suddenly it's also not enough.

It's all just "take" for them and it's never enough, so there really is no real discussion to be had here.

See, despite of what you'd like to sarcastically suggest, this easly works both ways.

Let's be really clear here, it's not them not wanting to be part of the community, it's the exclusivity that's the core issue.

The biggest "exclusivity" here is the one that people NOT PARTICIPATING IN RAIDS made up, probably based on them not being able to get into those few high li req squads (maybe to get carried without knowing what to do? -I don't know) and apparently because there's no "auto-matchmaking" of some sort that just forces them into squads with random people (coincidentally there was also a complaint from one of them about "him not being able to play with whom he wants", which is just a lie seeing how he absolutely CAN play with whomever he wants). There are different req squads and if there aren't, you can make yours and it will fill up. I was almost exclusively raiding with "randoms", so anyone trying to claim "THEY NEED A STATIC TO SUCCEED" just goes over my head, because it's very clearly false based on my own experience.

Btw. I've "pinged you" to ask what are those "pony trick mechanics" 2 pages ago and I still don't know.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1448870/#Comment_1448870The closest thing to that I know from gaming is "one trick pony", which pretty sure has nothing to do with this?

(endless PuGs, I'd be better off in WOW),

Why would you "be better off in wow"?

statics (i'd be better off in WoW)

Why would you "be better off in wow"?

or being jerk (why bother playing?)

I don't understand this one tbh.

Btw do you see a slight inconsistency in what you're complaining about and then what you're doing?Complaint: exclusivity, people don't want to play with others and whatnotWhat you do: I won't PUG because no.???

Firebeard.1746 · April 15, 2021

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Firebeard.1746 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they
don't
want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.

As such, there's no real discussion to be had, as there's no way to make necessary changes without changing one of those things that should never be touched.

Here's what can change though: people that want to be rewarded for completing the content can learn and complete that content.But I guess they're not willing to learn

because it takes time

(despite them claiming it's not about the time at all,

so just give me the same rewards over slightly longer period of time in easy mode?

)... They also pretend it's too hard to get into raiding, but if the training mode doesn't reward legendary gear then it's suddenly not about that AT ALL and that problem isn't even real anymore (no problem, I agree it's not an actual problem and I'm sorry for giving anyone the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't a made out complaint -my bad). They can also paint themselves as greatly fascinated by the raid content and wanting more (all for the community they don't want to be a part of, duh!) despite them not even trying at the current "normal" iteration as they are intended to be played. They also say "it's just for the lore" which they shouldn't be cut off from -but I guess legendary armor is crucial to keep their interest in the story, so no armor = no lore and suddenly it's also not enough.

It's all just "take" for them and it's never enough, so there really is no real discussion to be had here.

See, despite of what you'd like to sarcastically suggest, this easly works both ways.

Let's be really clear here, it's not them not wanting to be part of the community, it's the exclusivity that's the core issue.

The biggest "exclusivity" here is the one that people NOT PARTICIPATING IN RAIDS made up, probably based on them not being able to get into those few high li req squads (maybe to get carried without knowing what to do? -I don't know) and apparently because there's no "auto-matchmaking" of some sort that just forces them into squads with random people (coincidentally there was also a complaint from one of them about "him not being able to play with whom he wants", which is just a lie seeing how he absolutely CAN play with whomever he wants). There are different req squads and if there aren't, you can make yours and it will fill up. I was almost exclusively raiding with "randoms", so anyone trying to claim "THEY NEED A STATIC TO SUCCEED" just goes over my head, because it's very clearly false.

So the moment you're talking about me exclusively grouping with randoms over and over again with the mechanics design, you're basically asking me to sink an indefinite amount of time into raids and I could wipe over and over due to circumstances outside of my control. I actually mentioned this as an option in my previous post and you ignored it and why I see that as not fun/a good use of my time.

Btw. I've "pinged you" to ask what are those "pony trick mechanics" 2 pages ago and I still don't know.

I've mentioned them multiple times. Hand kite, shields in CA to name a few, I don't feel like listing them again. You haven't really been reading my posts if you don't know what I'm talking about. There's more, you know it, I know it.

Apparently, you want to have a discussion with me, but not read my posts.

Also when i log in and get 100+ notifications of posts, I'm sorry I don't see yours and/or don't read all of them in sheer overwhelmed apathy.

Also, you are ignoring the most important part of my post:

The two most popular MMOs outside of GW2 FFXIV and WoW all have different difficulty levels for raids to allow a spectrum of skill levels. It's actually baffling to me that anet didn't have that from the get-go, especially considering the type of appeal they went for in the game as a whole. Why are WoW and other hardcore MMOs casual friendly in this regard but not Anet? does that make sense in the context of what GW2 was designed to be? I feel like this game is one of the few last bastions of raiding elitism. I don't want anything taken from raiders, and I'm not advocating that, but this just doesn't make sense. Not in terms of the game's design nor it's intended progression systems (legendaries are the carrot on the stick for this game, locking non-raiders out of them locks them out of one more carrot on the stick, essentially booting them to other content or out of the game when they're bored).

Sobx.1758 · April 15, 2021

@Firebeard.1746 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Firebeard.1746 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they
don't
want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.

As such, there's no real discussion to be had, as there's no way to make necessary changes without changing one of those things that should never be touched.

Here's what can change though: people that want to be rewarded for completing the content can learn and complete that content.But I guess they're not willing to learn

because it takes time

(despite them claiming it's not about the time at all,

so just give me the same rewards over slightly longer period of time in easy mode?

)... They also pretend it's too hard to get into raiding, but if the training mode doesn't reward legendary gear then it's suddenly not about that AT ALL and that problem isn't even real anymore (no problem, I agree it's not an actual problem and I'm sorry for giving anyone the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't a made out complaint -my bad). They can also paint themselves as greatly fascinated by the raid content and wanting more (all for the community they don't want to be a part of, duh!) despite them not even trying at the current "normal" iteration as they are intended to be played. They also say "it's just for the lore" which they shouldn't be cut off from -but I guess legendary armor is crucial to keep their interest in the story, so no armor = no lore and suddenly it's also not enough.

It's all just "take" for them and it's never enough, so there really is no real discussion to be had here.

See, despite of what you'd like to sarcastically suggest, this easly works both ways.

Let's be really clear here, it's not them not wanting to be part of the community, it's the exclusivity that's the core issue.

The biggest "exclusivity" here is the one that people NOT PARTICIPATING IN RAIDS made up, probably based on them not being able to get into those few high li req squads (maybe to get carried without knowing what to do? -I don't know) and apparently because there's no "auto-matchmaking" of some sort that just forces them into squads with random people (coincidentally there was also a complaint from one of them about "him not being able to play with whom he wants", which is just a lie seeing how he absolutely CAN play with whomever he wants). There are different req squads and if there aren't, you can make yours and it will fill up. I was almost exclusively raiding with "randoms", so anyone trying to claim "THEY NEED A STATIC TO SUCCEED" just goes over my head, because it's very clearly false.

So the moment you're talking about me exclusively grouping with randoms over and over again with the mechanics design, you're basically asking me to sink an indefinite amount of time into raids and I could wipe over and over due to circumstances outside of my control. I actually mentioned this as an option in my previous post and you ignored it and why I see that as not fun/a good use of my time.

Based on my experience it's far from "sinking indefinite amount of time into raids". If you actually hold up your own weight and understnad what you do, many squads will accept you below their initial requirements. But if you want an excuse to not learn something, you can always find some, sure.

Btw. I've "pinged you" to ask what are those "pony trick mechanics" 2 pages ago and I still don't know.

I've mentioned them multiple times. Hand kite, shields in CA to name a few, I don't feel like listing them again. You haven't really been reading my posts if you don't know what I'm talking about. There's more, you know it, I know it.

Apparently, you want to have a discussion with me, but not read my posts.

I did read your post, it's just that "pony trick mechanics" isn't anything I know or understand. You're just referring to regular game/raid mechanics and then paint them as something negative with APPARENTLY (still can't be sure, still don't see you explaining what it exactly is or where that term came from) made up term. So is any knockup a "pony trick mechanic"? Is any stun a "pont trick mechanic"? Break bar? What EXACTLY is a "pont trick mechanic", how is this different from just a regular ingame "mechanic"? I need to understand the complaint to comment on it. Is this , in the end, just a complaint about general existance of ingame mechanics where you need to do something?

Firebeard.1746 · April 15, 2021

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Firebeard.1746 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Firebeard.1746 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Obtena.7952" said:Great ... so we can agree that everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work and we can continue with the theoretical discussion about what we would change to justify raid development renewal.Well, since "everyone in the current state of raids is happy with how things work", they
don't
want any changes. Sure, they might bemoan the fact that there's not enough players that want to go in there, or the fact that developers don't seem to want to spend any resources on that content anymore, but they stop at that point. They're not willing to pay any price in order to change that. All they can do is hope the issue will fix itself completely on its own.