If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population

The problem with most of these suggestion is that they do not really increase the population of Raids. They just add an entirely new mode that is supposed to have its own playerbase but not its own rewards. How is that gonna help actual Raid development?The same way the existence of normal mode helps savage/extreme modes development in FF XIV. Those "true raid difficulties" would not have seen development at all if not for the mostly casual players playing the primary (easy) version.

Do those modes offer the same rewards as the easier ones? What incentivizes players to play in the savage/extreme modes?

I did a quick search and saw that savage mode offers better gear. I don’t know anything about the FF14 so I can’t really comment much about it.It offers slightly better gear (but the difference is really small, and not important to any one not doing those modes anyway), and the skins on that gear can be colored (the normal version cannot).Notice also, that the advantage of raid tier gear is shortterm. For example, we're now at the end of the development cycle, with only one patch in that cycle left (after that it will be nxt expansion, that will start everything going again). This week's patch included an upgrade option to the current tomestone gear (mainstream gear you obtain for currency you get from pugging content, that is something meant for all players, both casual and hardcore). That upgrade increases ilvl of tomestone gear from 520 to 530 and is available for tokens you obtain for doing alliance raids (alliance raids are 24-man instances that have

only

the basic/casual difficulty). The current ilvl of the savage gear you get from last raid is 530 (the same). There's generally not going to be any higher gear in that cycle in the last patch either. Which means that the savage gear advantage lasted one patch (3 months) - and, as i said, it wasn't all that big of an advantage in the first place.The one exclusive reward you get from higher difficulty encounters (extreme tier trials and some savage encounters) are mounts. Most casual players that want them are probably going to wait till the next expansion and go try those trials with a level advantage. Or, if the trial is truly too hard for them, wait for one

more

expansion. For example, level 50 extreme trials can be soloed nowadays. Level 60's are easy even without a full party. For level 70 ones you generally still need to pay attention to mechanics and full party is advised. The current max level is 80. With the next expansion, the max level will go up to 90, with predictable consequences for past content.

There are also some occasional events that introduce previous expansions' trials mounts to be available to casual players by other means. The event that just ended for example made available a mount from Lakshmi, which is a previous expansion trial. I'm quite sure that in a year or so those events will start introducing the mounts from Shadowbringers (the current expansion, that will then be a previous one).

As such, the primary incentive for Savage/Extreme content players is not the rewards, but the thrill of being challenged (and the desire to be ahead of the pack).

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Xerac.1542" said:I fell like we have hit the bottom on this discussion again.Problem is and always will be that it is impossible to make everyone happy while having limited resources.

I am not against easy modes of raids, give them obtainable legendary grade armor (with stat swap and all) and make it only usable in raid environment.But I am afraid if easy/normal/whatever difficulty level of raids gets added and it is more successful we won't see another level added.As the situation is now, you won't see any more raids added anyway.

Going off from your argument and inverting it would mean:

If more people who are positive on "easy" mode would put in time to progress in current raid setting this would inflate the numbers and would justify spending resources on raids, with some of those resources ending up being spent on lower/other difficulty tiers.Right?I addressed that one already, in a response i made to you.Generally, trying to count on players that didn't change so far to change now somehow is an excercise in futility. If those players were capable of changing (and wanted to), it would have happened long ago.So, if you wait for that to happen, you will wait forever. And raids will continue getting zero resources and dev attention. I guess you're fine with that?

If you are not fine however, you can only try to change the things that can be changed. Which happens to be content itself.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population

The problem with most of these suggestion is that they do not really increase the population of Raids. They just add an entirely new mode that is supposed to have its own playerbase but not its own rewards. How is that gonna help actual Raid development?The same way the existence of normal mode helps savage/extreme modes development in FF XIV. Those "true raid difficulties" would not have seen development at all if not for the mostly casual players playing the primary (easy) version.

Do those modes offer the same rewards as the easier ones? What incentivizes players to play in the savage/extreme modes?

I did a quick search and saw that savage mode offers better gear. I don’t know anything about the FF14 so I can’t really comment much about it.It offers slightly better gear (but the difference is really small, and not important to any one not doing those modes anyway), and the skins on that gear can be colored (the normal version cannot).

So better appearance and stronger stats...? Sounds like a different reward tier to me?

[Touchme.1097]

1- Easy, Normal and Hard modes on each raid wing2- Raid dailies3- Increase rewards for first kill of the week4- apply point 1,2 and 3 to dungeons as well

[Astralporing.1957]

@Sobx.1758 said:So better appearance and stronger stats...? Sounds like a different reward tier to me?Stats don't matter as much as you think - as i pointed out, casuals get their own equivalent in the next patch anyway (and since savage raids do not get released every patch, it's not even that raiders are always those 10 ilevels ahead - they keep leapfrogging ahead of casuals, who in the next patch always catch up to them, and always end up catching up at the end of the expansion cycle). Also, 10 ilevels is not much - sometimes minmaxing players even forego getting a highest tier gear in favour of a 10 ilevels lower one with better distribution of secondary stats. Due to that distribution, that varies from one release of gear to another, it also does happen that savage tier raid gear ends up inferior to a crafting one or the tomestone (mainstream) one.

As for looks, the difference on many cases is also not as big as you think. Most of the FF XIV gear colors very badly. And people that play the dress-up game usually have far better quality of skins to choose from.

Notice also, (which is what you missed) that if anyone truly wants one of those, all they need to do is to wait for the next expansion and attempt the content with the gear and level advantage. And sometimes not even that, as the gear progression even within a cycle is quite significant. The trials and raids that get released early in the cycle become much easier near the end of it.For example, the first trial of the current expansion (titania) had some very nasty dps check in extreme mode. Now that dps check is quite easily passable even for casuals - and that's still the same expansion, so there's no level advantage to be had yet.

Basically, it means that hardly anyone in the hardcore community does raids for rewards. And those that do never expect those rewards to stay exclusive for too long.

So, yeah. Technically there is a different reward tier. In practice it's hardly noticeable. It is there to satisfy raider community, but it's (intentionally) never significant enough for anyone else to care.It's also easier to stomach content exclusives if gear and level progression means you will eventually be able to get those anyway at some point no matter your skill.

[Ayrilana.1396]

More or less the same as between ascended and legendary armor.

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

• No LI/LD acquisition
• No achievement/collection progression
• Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of

what you're proposing

is "just getting rewards", role of

what you don't want to become a thing

is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people

that want to learn the cointent

into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve. The reality is this, if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests, the current state of how raids are, is not fulfilling that. If an easy mode is made, it can’t have 0 rewards or a green and a blue. The suggestion is provide a legendary Armor set, be it the skin for the precursor Armor or whatever and make it take longer. If this Armor takes 5 to 6 months to make, maybe something on par to PvP and WvW then I wouldn’t call that “easy”, easy on execution but not easy on time.Out of curiosity, why does that reward have to be legendary armor?Strikes already fufill the "Easy Mode Raids" spot. And they provide a pretty generous reward structure with regards to acquisition of BiS gear.Why not just give them the same rewards as Voice and Claw or Shiverpeaks Pass?

You just answered your own question ... what does a raid with different mechanics and rewards look like? It looks like something completely different than raid content already in this game. That's the kind of answer I would expect from someone that doesn't want new raids to be developed and is happy with DRM/DSM like content as replacements to new raids. That's not what we are talking about in this this thread.

Easy mode would also change how raids play, so it wouldn't be raids anymore. So easy mode is off the table, I guess because it interferes with how raids are meant to be played.

Well, that's not really accurate right ... that's an Anet decision.

Slightly lost here -what's "Anet's decision"?

Let's put it this way ... I don't see a contradiction between different difficulties and what defines 'raids'. So when you tell me an 'easy mode raid' changes the way raids play so they wouldn't be raids anymore ... I disagree, because that's exactly the case we have with Fractals ... they are ALL fractals and play like fractals and give similar rewards ... but there ARE different levels of difficulty you can choose to play. A tier 1 Fractal doesn't cease to be a Fractal because it's not the same difficulty as a T4 fractal ... and a 'easymode' raid wouldn't cease to be a raid because it's not a 'current difficulty' raid either.

If you are here to start an argument with me that the current way is the way Anet wants raids to work, I'm not in disagreement. I'm also of the belief that it's ALSO not a mistake that Anet stopped developing raids because they are a big fail from a business POV as well ... In otherwords ... Anet is wililng to change things if they don't work for them.

But this thread is a theoretical discussion ... we aren't talking about what the way it is now or why it's that way. We are talking about what it could be to justify development of new raids. Are you having a conceptual hang up that prevents you from participating in an abstract discussion about a game state where we have different raid difficulties? It seems to be the case.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:[removing the quote because it took way more space than my response :D ]

Luckily legendary gear in gw2 doesn't offer any stat increase over ascended gear, even "barely noticable" one, so... I don't see the problem and not sure why somehow you do, while you don't see the problem with ff14 version.

---

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

• No LI/LD acquisition
• No achievement/collection progression
• Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of

what you're proposing

is "just getting rewards", role of

what you don't want to become a thing

is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people

that want to learn the cointent

into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve. The reality is this, if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests, the current state of how raids are, is not fulfilling that. If an easy mode is made, it can’t have 0 rewards or a green and a blue. The suggestion is provide a legendary Armor set, be it the skin for the precursor Armor or whatever and make it take longer. If this Armor takes 5 to 6 months to make, maybe something on par to PvP and WvW then I wouldn’t call that “easy”, easy on execution but not easy on time.Out of curiosity, why does that reward have to be legendary armor?Strikes already fufill the "Easy Mode Raids" spot. And they provide a pretty generous reward structure with regards to acquisition of BiS gear.Why not just give them the same rewards as Voice and Claw or Shiverpeaks Pass?

You just answered your own question ... what does a raid with different mechanics and rewards look like? It looks like something completely different than raid content already in this game. That's the kind of answer I would expect from someone that doesn't want new raids to be developed and is happy with DRM/DSM like content as replacements to new raids. That's not what we are talking about in this this thread.

Easy mode would also change how raids play, so it wouldn't be raids anymore. So easy mode is off the table, I guess because it interferes with how raids are meant to be played.

Well, that's not really accurate right ... that's an Anet decision.

Slightly lost here -what's "Anet's decision"?

Let's put it this way ... I don't see a contradiction between different difficulties and what defines 'raids'. So when you tell me an 'easy mode raid' changes the way raids play so they wouldn't be raids anymore ... I disagree, because that's exactly the case we have with Fractals ... they are ALL fractals and play like fractals and give similar rewards ... but there ARE different levels of difficulty you can choose to play. A tier 1 Fractal doesn't cease to be a Fractal because it's not the same difficulty as a T4 fractal ... and a 'easymode' raid wouldn't cease to be a raid because it's not a 'current difficulty' raid either.

If you are here to start an argument with me that the current way is the way Anet wants raids to work, I'm not in disagreement.

I'm not here to start that argument -it was you who said it. I was just wondering if I understood it correctly and apparently I did.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Not all rewards are similar in fractals as CMs give rewards which you cannot get in regular fractals.

[Nihil.9817]

the reason why i dont raid is because my inability to raid, ive raided in other games and it took awhile to not be complete dogshit, i dont want to join a raid and deal less damage than everyone else and have them have to carry me, knowing my class/spec isnt particularly good or what they need, i dont want to join knowing i will probably cause a wipe, i dont want to raid because knowing that even when you do git gud, you'll consistently run into groups where they just give up after the third go, or running into people who arent eager to learn and just want a free carry.

the design is fine, amazing actually.

also; story content > raidingcheckmate raiders, raiders are in shambles, how will they ever recover?

[Obtena.7952]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Not all rewards are similar in fractals as CMs give rewards which you cannot get in regular fractals.

That's true ... and I'm sure depending on the nature of those rewards, it reflects on how players participate in them as well. That wouldn't be any different in raids of differing difficulty either. Given that the discussion here is to encourage non-raiders as a carrot for Anet to renew raid development (even if it's theoretical and higly unlikely), it makes sense that Anet wouldn't set themselves up for Raid Failure Version 2 by making the likely-desirable rewards from the raids that people would want from them depend on the difficulty.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Not all rewards are similar in fractals as CMs give rewards which you cannot get in regular fractals.

That's true ... and I'm sure depending on the nature of those rewards, it reflects on how players participate in them as well. That wouldn't be any different in raids of differing difficulty either. Given that the discussion here is to encourage non-raiders as a carrot for Anet to renew raid development (even if it's theoretical and higly unlikely), it makes sense that Anet wouldn't set themselves up for Raid Failure Version 2 by making the likely-desirable rewards from the raids that people would want from them depend on the difficulty.

It would mean that not every reward has to be available in easy raids to attract players with legendary armor being an example.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Not all rewards are similar in fractals as CMs give rewards which you cannot get in regular fractals.

That's true ... and I'm sure depending on the nature of those rewards, it reflects on how players participate in them as well. That wouldn't be any different in raids of differing difficulty either. Given that the discussion here is to encourage non-raiders as a carrot for Anet to renew raid development (even if it's theoretical and higly unlikely), it makes sense that Anet wouldn't set themselves up for Raid Failure Version 2 by making the likely-desirable rewards from the raids that people would want from them depend on the difficulty.

It would mean that not every reward has to be available in easy raids to attract players with legendary armor being an example.

Sure ... and if the goal here is to bring back raids with the idea that Anet would have to change raids to engage more players as endgame content, then why would they exclude legendary armor mats in the reward menu to do that? Seems to me like suggesting the removal of THE reason for long term engagement in raids during a discussion about raids coming back as the endgame group content focus is an indication of misunderstanding the problem being discussed.

You appear OK with if there is some easy mode ... but you think it should have some rewards related to raids that are excluded .. why? Like, how would it be bad for you or anyone if players had a path to leg. armor through an easy mode .... If bringing back more content people liked meant allowing other people some kind of rewards, why WOULDN'T that be agreeable? I mean, that seems rather petty and selfish position to have. To me, that's the kind of exclusive philosophy people hold on to (players and Anet) that is part of the reason we don't have new raids now.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Not all rewards are similar in fractals as CMs give rewards which you cannot get in regular fractals.

That's true ... and I'm sure depending on the nature of those rewards, it reflects on how players participate in them as well. That wouldn't be any different in raids of differing difficulty either. Given that the discussion here is to encourage non-raiders as a carrot for Anet to renew raid development (even if it's theoretical and higly unlikely), it makes sense that Anet wouldn't set themselves up for Raid Failure Version 2 by making the likely-desirable rewards from the raids that people would want from them depend on the difficulty.

It would mean that not every reward has to be available in easy raids to attract players with legendary armor being an example.

Sure ... and if the goal here is to bring back raids with the idea that Anet would have to change raids to engage more players as endgame content, then why would they exclude legendary armor mats in the reward menu to do that? Seems to me like suggesting the removal of THE reason for long term engagement of players in a discussion about raids coming back as the endgame group content focus is an indication of misunderstanding the problem being discussed.

They exclude legendary armor to get people to move towards normal raids.

No. You’re under the assumption that legendary armor is the only thing that would get new players to do raids if an easy mode were made available. I’ve stated numerous times that there are many other things which can be done to give players reasons to play raids. Things which have made people run strikes and fractals for the long term.

Honestly, I can't see where you are coming from except for a blatant attempt to sink the thread. There is some easy mode ... but it's got some rewards related to raids that are excluded .. why? Just because it would make some people feel bad about getting the armor 'the old way'? I don't get that ... again, that's the kind of position someone has that ISN'T interested in seeing raids coming back.

Me having an opinion opposite of yours is no more sinking the thread than you having an opinion opposite of mine. If anything, you distorting what I say is doing more harm than me simply disagreeing with you.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Not all rewards are similar in fractals as CMs give rewards which you cannot get in regular fractals.

That's true ... and I'm sure depending on the nature of those rewards, it reflects on how players participate in them as well. That wouldn't be any different in raids of differing difficulty either. Given that the discussion here is to encourage non-raiders as a carrot for Anet to renew raid development (even if it's theoretical and higly unlikely), it makes sense that Anet wouldn't set themselves up for Raid Failure Version 2 by making the likely-desirable rewards from the raids that people would want from them depend on the difficulty.

It would mean that not every reward has to be available in easy raids to attract players with legendary armor being an example.

Sure ... and if the goal here is to bring back raids with the idea that Anet would have to change raids to engage more players as endgame content, then why would they exclude legendary armor mats in the reward menu to do that? Seems to me like suggesting the removal of THE reason for long term engagement of players in a discussion about raids coming back as the endgame group content focus is an indication of misunderstanding the problem being discussed.

They exclude legendary armor to get people to move towards normal raids.

Again, the goal here is NOT to transition people to normal raids unless they choose to do so. The goal here is to get people engaged in raid content to justify renewing raid development. If you view easymode as a 'training ground' for people to transition, you simply do not understand why raids aren't engaging people in the first place.

No. You’re under the assumption that legendary armor is the only thing that would get new players to do raids if an easy mode were made available.

No, that's not my assumption. We are talking about getting players engaged in endgame content. That's not doing a few raids and getting a skin and being done with it. That's a path to the long term rewards ... and in raids, that's leg. armor.

Honestly, I can't see where you are coming from except for a blatant attempt to sink the thread. There is some easy mode ... but it's got some rewards related to raids that are excluded .. why? Just because it would make some people feel bad about getting the armor 'the old way'? I don't get that ... again, that's the kind of position someone has that ISN'T interested in seeing raids coming back.

Me having an opinion opposite of yours is no more sinking the thread than you having an opinion opposite of mine.

Yet you avoid answering me ... WHY is this a problem for you if easy mode raids reward leg. armor mats? Are you one of these people that believe in the sanctity of leg. armor as a status symbol? Do you have a conflict of interest because you sell raid runs? I honestly can't think of any positive reason a person would deny easy mode raids access to a path to get leg. armor.

[skus.4527]

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, the goal here is NOT to transition people to normal raids unless they choose to do so. The goal here is to get people engaged in raid content to justify renewing raid development. If you view easymode as a 'training ground' for people to transition, you simply do not understand why raids aren't engaging people in the first place.

I think this is exactly the point being missed. Even if no one who played easy mode ever moved on to normal raids, if devs were making new easy mode raids because a larger percentage base of the players played them, the devs have already put in 95% of the work of making new normal raids (or even CM raids.) Tweaking the numbers is the easy part. Easy mode players don't have to transition to harder content, or git gud, or even interact with current raiders for the current raiders to benefit.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Not all rewards are similar in fractals as CMs give rewards which you cannot get in regular fractals.

That's true ... and I'm sure depending on the nature of those rewards, it reflects on how players participate in them as well. That wouldn't be any different in raids of differing difficulty either. Given that the discussion here is to encourage non-raiders as a carrot for Anet to renew raid development (even if it's theoretical and higly unlikely), it makes sense that Anet wouldn't set themselves up for Raid Failure Version 2 by making the likely-desirable rewards from the raids that people would want from them depend on the difficulty.

It would mean that not every reward has to be available in easy raids to attract players with legendary armor being an example.

Sure ... and if the goal here is to bring back raids with the idea that Anet would have to change raids to engage more players as endgame content, then why would they exclude legendary armor mats in the reward menu to do that? Seems to me like suggesting the removal of THE reason for long term engagement of players in a discussion about raids coming back as the endgame group content focus is an indication of misunderstanding the problem being discussed.

They exclude legendary armor to get people to move towards normal raids.

Again, the goal here is NOT to transition people to normal raids unless they choose to do so. The goal here is to get people engaged in raid content to justify renewing raid development. If you view easymode as a 'training ground' for people to transition, you simply do not understand why raids aren't engaging people in the first place.

You are the one that keeps saying that legendary armor must be available in easy mode. You cannot simply dismiss any argument against it as "the goal here is NOT to transition people to normal raids unless they choose to do so".

No. You’re under the assumption that legendary armor is the only thing that would get new players to do raids if an easy mode were made available.

No, that's not my assumption. We are talking about getting players engaged in endgame content. That's not doing a few raids and getting a skin and being done with it. That's a path to the long term rewards ... and in raids, that's leg. armor.

Umm... you just contradicted yourself here.

Honestly, I can't see where you are coming from except for a blatant attempt to sink the thread. There is some easy mode ... but it's got some rewards related to raids that are excluded .. why? Just because it would make some people feel bad about getting the armor 'the old way'? I don't get that ... again, that's the kind of position someone has that ISN'T interested in seeing raids coming back.

Me having an opinion opposite of yours is no more sinking the thread than you having an opinion opposite of mine.

Yet you avoid answering me ... WHY is this a problem for you if easy mode raids reward leg. armor mats? Are you one of these people that believe in the sanctity of leg. armor as a status symbol? Do you have a conflict of interest because you sell raid runs? I honestly can't think of any

positive

reason a person would deny easy mode raids access to a path to get leg. armor.

You're cannibalizing one mode's incentive to add incentive to another. You devalue the effort and time people took to earn raid legendary armor by offering it in an easy mode.

[Xerac.1542]

@"Astralporing.1957"Maybe at least indicate you left out something if you are quoting me by adding [...] instead of cherry picking whatever you need.Because the next sentence I wrote reads"This is not a good argument and neither is yours to me but we will simply have to agree to disagree on that."

But yeah, you do yo.

[Linken.6345]

@skus.4527 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, the goal here is NOT to transition people to normal raids unless they choose to do so. The goal here is to get people engaged in raid content to justify renewing raid development. If you view easymode as a 'training ground' for people to transition, you simply do not understand why raids aren't engaging people in the first place.

I think this is exactly the point being missed. Even if no one who played easy mode ever moved on to normal raids, if devs were making new easy mode raids because a larger percentage base of the players played them, the devs have already put in 95% of the work of making new normal raids (or even CM raids.) Tweaking the numbers is the easy part. Easy mode players don't have to transition to harder content, or git gud, or even interact with current raiders for the current raiders to benefit.

There is no way to know that Anet would put in the effort of those last 5% if easy mode engaged enough players for their roi to be satisfied.So No a easy mode would not save current raids nor guarantee that new ones would be develeoped.

EditIf they really would want to make more raids they could already add that 5% to alot of the story bosses and make those instances raid worthy.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Sobx.1758" said:Luckily legendary gear in gw2 doesn't offer any stat increase over ascended gear, even "barely noticable" one, so... I don't see the problem and not sure why somehow you do, while you don't see the problem with ff14 version.Let's put the FF XIV situation it GW2 context, then, so you will be able to notice the key differences.

To make the situation comparable, in gw2 it would have to be like this:

1. envoy skin would have to be available in easy mode, but with color channels locked
2. an alternate legendary armor with different skin would have been introduced shortly after wing 4. It would have been available for all PvE players for some sort of universal currency, and would actually be easier to obtain than raid one.
3. Today, most casuals would be able to solo faceroll first 4 wings (obtaining raid armor that way), wing 5 would require a bit more attention, and a full group, but stilll be able to be done by Open World level casuals, and wing 7 would be at least 30% easier than on release. And i don't mean "easier because people learned strats". I mean actually easier, with boss stats (both damage and hp) nerfed by that amount.
4. Any raid encounter that would not be recent (which at this moment would include all of them) would get an additional stackable buff that would increase your damage done and decrease damage received by 5% every time your group wiped (with the cap on the number of stacks being higher on older encounters). That would be in addition to the nerfs mentioned before.

If that was the situation, you would hardly have any complains. But that's not now it is.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Linken.6345 said:

@skus.4527 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, the goal here is NOT to transition people to normal raids unless they choose to do so. The goal here is to get people engaged in raid content to justify renewing raid development. If you view easymode as a 'training ground' for people to transition, you simply do not understand why raids aren't engaging people in the first place.

I think this is exactly the point being missed. Even if no one who played easy mode ever moved on to normal raids, if devs were making new easy mode raids because a larger percentage base of the players played them, the devs have already put in 95% of the work of making new normal raids (or even CM raids.) Tweaking the numbers is the easy part. Easy mode players don't have to transition to harder content, or git gud, or even interact with current raiders for the current raiders to benefit.

There is no way to know that Anet would put in the effort of those last 5% if easy mode engaged enough players for their roi to be satisfied.So No a easy mode would not save current raids nor guarantee that new ones would be develeoped.Yes. There would be no guarantee. A chance is still better than nothing, don't you think?Besides, if hardcore raider population is way too small for devs to even consider spending resources for that last 5%, then there's no point in even considering raid future at all, because it would mean they have

none

.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@skus.4527 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, the goal here is NOT to transition people to normal raids unless they choose to do so. The goal here is to get people engaged in raid content to justify renewing raid development. If you view easymode as a 'training ground' for people to transition, you simply do not understand why raids aren't engaging people in the first place.

I think this is exactly the point being missed. Even if no one who played easy mode ever moved on to normal raids, if devs were making new easy mode raids because a larger percentage base of the players played them, the devs have already put in 95% of the work of making new normal raids (or even CM raids.) Tweaking the numbers is the easy part. Easy mode players don't have to transition to harder content, or git gud, or even interact with current raiders for the current raiders to benefit.

There is no way to know that Anet would put in the effort of those last 5% if easy mode engaged enough players for their roi to be satisfied.So No a easy mode would not save current raids nor guarantee that new ones would be develeoped.Yes. There would be no guarantee. A chance is still better than nothing, don't you think?

Some things are not worth trying since the cost associated with trying them might not be revert-able later on.

@Astralporing.1957 said:Besides, if hardcore raider population is way too small for devs to even consider spending resources for that last 5%, then there's no point in even considering raid future at all, because it would mean they have none.

Sure, that might be. Only the future can tell. Yet somehow I am very sure that even IF there was future raids implemented, we would have the same people come here and complain that regular raids were implemented. The same people who currently love telling everyone that Arenanet gets to make the decisions based on what they deem valuable.

Not saying this is ever going to happen, but man would some have to eat their words. On the flip side, if no new engaging challenging content gets developed, players who enjoy such content will have one more confirmation that it is best to move on from this game (for the remaining hardcore few who to this day hold on with ever more friends leaving the game).

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Not all rewards are similar in fractals as CMs give rewards which you cannot get in regular fractals.

That's true ... and I'm sure depending on the nature of those rewards, it reflects on how players participate in them as well. That wouldn't be any different in raids of differing difficulty either. Given that the discussion here is to encourage non-raiders as a carrot for Anet to renew raid development (even if it's theoretical and higly unlikely), it makes sense that Anet wouldn't set themselves up for Raid Failure Version 2 by making the likely-desirable rewards from the raids that people would want from them depend on the difficulty.

It would mean that not every reward has to be available in easy raids to attract players with legendary armor being an example.

Sure ... and if the goal here is to bring back raids with the idea that Anet would have to change raids to engage more players as endgame content, then why would they exclude legendary armor mats in the reward menu to do that? Seems to me like suggesting the removal of THE reason for long term engagement of players in a discussion about raids coming back as the endgame group content focus is an indication of misunderstanding the problem being discussed.

They exclude legendary armor to get people to move towards normal raids.

Again, the goal here is NOT to transition people to normal raids unless they choose to do so.

YOUR goal isn't that. Very clearly many of the other people here that IS exactly the goal. You repeating that is not the goal just because it doesn't fit your idea about how it should look does not automatically make it "not a goal". The idea is to bring people into normal raids and easy mode/lower rewards would help making a push from easy to normal.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Luckily legendary gear in gw2 doesn't offer any stat increase over ascended gear, even "barely noticable" one, so... I don't see the problem and not sure why somehow you do, while you don't see the problem with ff14 version.Let's put the FF XIV situation it GW2 context, then, so you will be able to notice the key differences.

To make the situation comparable, in gw2 it would have to be like this:

1. envoy
   skin
   would have to be available in easy mode, but with color channels locked

From what I understood this is a different system, where normally armors in ff14 can't be dyed? At that point adding pretty much new mechanic to the armor amkes it special in itself. I don't see locking color channels in gw2 "comparable". Every armor in gw2 can be dyed. Legendary is animated on draw/staw. This is a difference in appearance in gw2 between these armors.Suddenly just locking dye channels when you can dye level 1 armor does nothing to me in terms of comparison, as it seems to not be accurate when transitioned into gw2's "reality".

2. an alternate legendary armor with different skin would have been introduced shortly after wing 4. It would have been available for all PvE players for some sort of universal currency, and would actually be easier to obtain than raid one.

I assume it's because of the stat difference, which makes players weaker/stronger, however small the difference is in your opinion. This is not the case in gw2, there's no power difference by obtaining/not obtaning this armor so nobody is hard pressed to catch up or they'll be weaker in wvw or even pve modes -at least that's my view on this.

3. Today, most casuals would be able to solo faceroll first 4 wings (obtaining raid armor that way), wing 5 would require a bit more attention, and a full group, but stilll be able to be done by Open World level casuals, and wing 7 would be at least 30% easier than on release. And i don't mean "easier because people learned strats". I mean actually easier, with boss stats (both damage and hp) nerfed by that amount.

Why would they nerf raids into irrelevancy?Or maybe the initial raids are easier because there's gear treadmill and -in the end- the stats DO matter indeed making players stronger? Which also means the rewards from the previous wings are getting devalued and have little to no relevance in end game?

4. Any raid encounter that would not be recent (which at this moment would include all of them) would get an additional stackable buff that would increase your damage done and decrease damage received by 5% every time your group wiped (with the cap on the number of stacks being higher on older encounters). That would be in addition to the nerfs mentioned before.

If that was the situation, you would hardly have any complains. But that's not now it is.

...with that absolutely major and gamechanging difference of having gear treadmill in the game and those drops giving players more power than the others, which -again- isn't the case in gw2.Now in gw2 people can get currency (and I guess if anything, that's also the currency they could be getting in lower amounts in easy mode) for which they can buy gear with top stats available and some "basic ascended skin". Overally you seem to bring up and put additional emphasis just on the details that "fit your case", while avoiding or downplaying the rest.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Sobx.1758" said:From what I understood this is a different system, where normally armors in ff14 can't be dyed?No, a lot of non-raid FF XIV armor sets can be dyed. It's just that in case of raids there are two variants of armor with the same skin, with the normal mode not having the option, and savage mode having it. The same approach is used, for example, with tomestone vendor armor (normal version undyable, upgraded version dyable), and with crafting armor (again, base version undyable, upgraded one dyable).

At that point adding pretty much new mechanic to the armor amkes it special in itself. I don't see locking color channels in gw2 "comparable". Every armor in gw2 can be dyed. Legendary is animated on draw/staw. This is a difference in appearance in gw2 between these armors.Suddenly just locking dye channels when you can dye level 1 armor does nothing to me in terms of comparison, as it seems to not be accurate when transitioned into gw2's "reality".Well, as i said, you can dye a lot of FF XIV armor sets. It's not a feature that's unique to raids.

I assume it's because of the stat difference, which makes players weaker/stronger, however small the difference is in your opinion. This is not the case in gw2, there's no power difference by obtaining/not obtaning this armor so nobody is hard pressed to catch up or they'll be weaker in wvw or even pve modes -at least that's my view on this.You were one assuming that this ilvl difference means it's another tier of gear. And in FF XIV the same ilvl is very shortly after made available to everyone else as well.

Why would they nerf raids into irrelevancy?I gave a comparison. FF XIV versions aren't really nerfed after all - it's the players that become stronger due to gear/level progression (which doesn't exist in gw2).

I also did not say the GW2 versions should be nerfed - only that it would have to work like that if you wanted to really have the situation be comparable. And since it doesn;t work like that, it's not comparable.

The point is, in FF XIV the past encounters become easier with time, so eventually everyone can do them and get gear from them. That is a significant difference, don't you think?

Basically, there's absolutely nothing in savage raids that is truly exclusive. Every single thing eventually becomes available for wider audience.

To reiterate, at this moment in FF XIV:

• the skin from savage raids is available to casuals (although without recoloring options)
• the stats from savage raids are available to casuals on a different set of armor. That set of armor has the recoloring options. At this point in the game, raiders have no stat advantage over anyone. And won't have until first raid content of the next expansion goes in, which will be around 3 months after next expansion launch. And even then that advantage will be shortterm, because the next patch will nullify it.
• the recolorable version of that specific skin, if you really want it, will become easier to acquire to casuals with passing time. Eventually it will be soloable.

It's vastly different compared to how it is in GW2.