If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

This still doesn't dispute that it's not required to have 49+ players as I had stated.  Differences in ow farm content versus raids are not likely to be the same as I've stated once or twice already.  Inefficiencies in ow farms tend to be in the minutes while inefficiencies in raids can go into the hours.  You can easily take an extra hour in raids due to wipes which you're unlikely to take as much of a time loss in a farm cycle due to inefficiencies. 

You don't understand how farms work, apparently. The efficiency is often not based on how fast you do the events, but on the way you do them. That is especially important in all the map farms that require keys to open chests - do the events in a bad order, or happen to miss some of them because they were started/finished by casuals when the zerg was on the other side of the map, and you suddenly lack keys to open all chests, which means your net income goes down. Be slightly slower, and you won't get to even in time to tag the event champ (because it dies in seconds) and you don't get the event rewards/keys/can't open chest. Run a build worse at tagging (or run the right build, but in an inefficient way), and you get less valuable drops. Same when having lower MF.

Even if the overall meta completion time is the same, you can end up with massive differences in incomes between attempts. Or even between different players during the same attempt. Completion time is only one of many factors you need to consider - and among those it's often one of the least important.

[Firebeard.1746]

12 hours ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

Raids don't have good liquid rewards, in fact they are garbage. Even with the best of the best group, they reward only once per week, daily runs of Drizzlewood, Dragonfall or Silverwastes will net a much higher amount of gold. And that assumes the best of the best that can do full clears. What about those who cannot full clear? What about those that don't even make enough for the food they used because they didn't actually kill enough bosses? Raids make lots of money because good statics clear all raid wings every Monday is not an argument.

 

I don't get this insistance on saying that Raid liquid rewards are fine because "with a good static you will get a lot of gold". And with a "good static" you will be getting 100 mystic coins +500 gold from the Monthly PVP tournaments and even more from the daily pvp tournaments (that you will have to win anyway to get to the monthly) but I don't think anyone in the right mind will say that pvp has amazing liquid rewards.

 

Edit: Furthermore, we are in a thread about increasing participation, this is about bringing new players into Raids. Take random Player A that runs Drizzlewood, Dragonfall and Silverwastes earning a lot of gold every run, and even more weekly. All while simply semi-afk leeching. What's the incentive for this player to go and participate in content like Raids, that to give them the same kind of liquid rewards would take months, and that's assuming they get "good enough" first.

 

The only draw here are the unique rewards (like Legendary Armor) but even that will eventually backfire. Once that same Player A gets their Legendary Armor they will see if they got to a level where it's worth it running Raids compared to Drizzlewood, and if it's not they'll lose another incentive to keep on raiding after getting the unique rewards they want.

 

Finally Raiders are supposed to be a tiny minority. Raiders in perfect statics that can full clear in 2 hours are a minority of that minority. I'm certain increasing the rewards of Raids so everyone gets something more for their time/effort wouldn't upset the overall balance of the economy as much because some tiny minority, of a tiny minority, will get even better rewards.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

This still doesn't dispute that it's not required to have 49+ players as I had stated.  Differences in ow farm content versus raids are not likely to be the same as I've stated once or twice already.  Inefficiencies in ow farms tend to be in the minutes while inefficiencies in raids can go into the hours.  You can easily take an extra hour in raids due to wipes which you're unlikely to take as much of a time loss in a farm cycle due to inefficiencies. 

Even so you're handily beating these people if they're looking for the legendaries.  Something neither of you discuss is the cost of buying the raids out-right. The opportunity cost of a single boss is 120-240g last time I pinged a seller, it goes down to 100-200/boss if you buy a whole wing, so it's in the 300g-800g range for a wing depending on the # of bosses (some sellers quote in mystic coins, others gold, that's why the range is so huge).  These people power OW farming arent beating you in efficiency if they have to clear the raids by paying someone else because you won't have to pay someone for a clear for an achieve or the LI/LD (you're saving yourself roughly 100g per run).

Comparing that to the farm trains, does it make sense for the 90%+ of the population that doesn't have the legendary armor to give up that opportunity cost for a measly extra 5-6g/hr compared to the farm trains you were quoting? I don't think so.

Further amplifying the buying capability of raids, one could feasibly get their static to start selling as well, that's something not on these charts and you could easily beat these g/hr benchmarks. If we're talking high end, let's go all the way and compare everything. You'd only need to carry 1 person paying about 45-50g/ per WING not boss (many times times less than the cost quoted here) to break even with the OW farms. A good group can carry at least 2 on most encounters. So you could even shave the cost further to break even agains the hundreds it actually costs in-game.

Raids are fine, if we're going to high end.

And you don't have control over your map, so that's something that easily dampens OW farming efficiency without the 49+ I quoted earlier.

The very fact they give so much yet so few people are doing them is hard evidence that the rewards aren't broken.
 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[maddoctor.2738]

7 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Even so you're handily beating these people if they're looking for the legendaries.  Something neither of you discuss is the cost of buying the raids out-right. The opportunity cost of a single boss is 120-240g last time I pinged a seller, it goes down to 100-200 if you buy a whole wing (some quote in mystic coins, others gold, that's why the range is so huge).  These people power OW farming arent beating you in efficiency if they have to clear the raids by paying someone else because you won't have to pay someone for a clear for an achieve or the LI/LD (you're saving yourself roughly 100g per run).

Comparing that to the farm trains, does it make sense for the 90%+ of the population that doesn't have the legendary armor to give up that opportunity cost for a measly extra 5-6g/hr compared to the farm trains you were quoting? I don't think so.

Further amplifying the buying capability of raids, one could feasibly get their static to start selling as well, that's something not on these charts and you could easily beat these g/hr benchmarks. If we're talking high end, let's go all the way and compare everything. You'd only need to carry 1 person paying about 45-50g/ per WING not boss (2-3 times less than the cost quoted here) to break even with the OW farms.

Raids are fine, if we're going to high end.

And you don't have control over your map, so that's something that easily dampens OW farming efficiency without the 49+ I quoted earlier.

The very fact that there's so
 

 

Again, you are thinking of a segment of the raiding population. You can't make an argument about raid rewards using only the top end of the raid population. Compare the income of a group of 10 friends/guild members with min-maxed exotic gear and only basic coordination when they play in an open world meta and when they try raiding and tell me again which part, OW or Raids has better rewards.

Edited May 2, 2021 by maddoctor.2738

[Firebeard.1746]

7 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

Again, you are thinking of a segment of the raiding population. You can't make an argument about raid rewards using only the top end of the raid population. Compare the income of a group of 10 friends/guild members with min-maxed exotic gear and only basic combination when they play in an open world meta and when they try raiding and tell me again which part, OW or Raids has better rewards.

How so? Ayrilana's responses and your benchmarks are based on the high-end of OW. No one is running the same way that community does, and in practice, I don't get their rewards.

In fact, said 10 people WILL farm better in raids as they don't control their population in map. If they learn the encounters, they'll handily get the rewards quoted for raids, yet they won't for OW.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[maddoctor.2738]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

How so? Ayrilana's responses and your benchmarks are based on the high-end of OW. No one is running the same way that community does, and in practice, I don't get their rewards.

 

My what now? I never gave any benchmarks of anything. I compare the average OW player with the average raider. The average OW player will always get at least something. The average raider will probably end up with less gold because they won't kill ANY boss. And even the above average players that do follow meta / play good builds / have good coordination, won't be earning any rewards from raids for a rather long time, until they get used to the raid encounters first. And most groups will NEVER reach the point where they beat every single raid boss in a single night. Most will beat 1 wing, or even only a single boss in one night of raiding.

 

The question in your own thread is how to bring more players into Raids and increase participation. Increasing (by a lot) the rewards Raids provide, outside the Legendary items, is one such healthy solution. To entice players to play and keep playing Raids. 

[Firebeard.1746]

1 minute ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

My what now? I never gave any benchmarks of anything. I compare the average OW player with the average raider. The average OW player will always get at least something. The average raider will probably end up with less gold because they won't kill ANY boss. And even the above average players that do follow meta / play good builds / have good coordination, won't be earning any rewards from raids for a rather long time, until they get used to the raid encounters first. And most groups will NEVER reach the point where they beat every single raid boss in a single night. Most will beat 1 wing, or even only a single boss in one night of raiding.

 

The question in your own thread is how to bring more players into Raids and increase participation. Increasing (by a lot) the rewards Raids provide, outside the Legendary items, is one such healthy solution. To entice players to play and keep playing Raids. 

This is false, because most consistent raiders static. It's not sane to PuG raids and that's why most people don't do them. That's actually the issue with raids is that they're not puggable.

Some raids aren't that hard if the people doing the more difficult roles know what they're doing. One of my raid trainers even only trained W2 because he felt it was one of the few wings where you weren't being constantly carried by tanks/druids/pushers and forced people to do mechanics.

Once the people doing the specific roles learn the fights, the raids aren't hard anymore. if you have a static, it's essentially a cost while learning, then you keep it forever if you're consistent and don't bleed players. This is also why statics tend to be VERY picky when recruiting, is they don't want to pay this training cost again.

Which goes back to my original response to Ayrilana, if they buff the rewards, it should be in the helping/training portion to get people involve. 90+% of the population can use the leggies from raids, yet they shy away, and the cost for them is HUGE. People aren't shying away from raids because of the rewards being sub par. No one I've met has ever said they get 5g/hour more doing OW. It's either that they aren't capable, OR they don't have a static. If you're pugging raids you're constantly rolling dice on everyone's ability and that's a great way to fail them and get frustrated.

[maddoctor.2738]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

This is false, because most consistent raiders static. 

 

And statics don't fail???? Statics are born with excellent knowledge of all encounters and how to play together? What I said is 100% true and you claiming that it's false is really weird. OW players earn an overwhelming amount of gold more than Raiders, given how "raiders" aren't going to succeed in their runs as often as OW players. You are still thinking of raiders as the top end that clears every wing on Monday, but I'm going to repeat it one last time, that's not every raider. Not by a long shot. If you don't want to understand or accept this fact, it's not my fault, you can keep your false opinion to yourself.

[Firebeard.1746]

4 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

And statics don't fail???? Statics are born with excellent knowledge of all encounters and how to play together? What I said is 100% true and you claiming that it's false is really weird. OW players earn an overwhelming amount of gold more than Raiders, given how "raiders" aren't going to succeed in their runs as often as OW players. You are still thinking of raiders as the top end that clears every wing on Monday, but I'm going to repeat it one last time, that's not every raider. Not by a long shot. If you don't want to understand or accept this fact, it's not my fault, you can keep your false opinion to yourself.

No one has ever told me that the reason they don't raid is the lack of rewards. The legendaries as a cost, are valuable enough to get people involved, this is an undisputed fact. Yes a static will fail, or will incur costs on a new encounter, but asymptotically, they earn more. Especially if you consider the value of the legendaries they're building. Heck, they only need to succeed on the harder encounters once for the collections, and the value of the LIs/LDs they get from just doing the easy ones weekly would handily beat OW farming, particularly if the OW farmers want the same legendaries.

And a single failure is usually just a few minutes, tops. It's not like a static constantly wiping on an encounter forever. Heck, my seller failed on their first try, but because they were selling and because they succeeded, they still easily broke the g/hr benchmarks on that stupid site.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Ayrilana.1396]

34 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

 

Even so you're handily beating these people if they're looking for the legendaries.  Something neither of you discuss is the cost of buying the raids out-right. The opportunity cost of a single boss is 120-240g last time I pinged a seller, it goes down to 100-200/boss if you buy a whole wing, so it's in the 300g-800g range for a wing depending on the # of bosses (some sellers quote in mystic coins, others gold, that's why the range is so huge).  These people power OW farming arent beating you in efficiency if they have to clear the raids by paying someone else because you won't have to pay someone for a clear for an achieve or the LI/LD (you're saving yourself roughly 100g per run).

Comparing that to the farm trains, does it make sense for the 90%+ of the population that doesn't have the legendary armor to give up that opportunity cost for a measly extra 5-6g/hr compared to the farm trains you were quoting? I don't think so.

Further amplifying the buying capability of raids, one could feasibly get their static to start selling as well, that's something not on these charts and you could easily beat these g/hr benchmarks. If we're talking high end, let's go all the way and compare everything. You'd only need to carry 1 person paying about 45-50g/ per WING not boss (many times times less than the cost quoted here) to break even with the OW farms. A good group can carry at least 2 on most encounters. So you could even shave the cost further to break even agains the hundreds it actually costs in-game.

Raids are fine, if we're going to high end.

And you don't have control over your map, so that's something that easily dampens OW farming efficiency without the 49+ I quoted earlier.

The very fact they give so much yet so few people are doing them is hard evidence that the rewards aren't broken.
 

 

You're really reaching if you're now using the cost to buy raids to back up your argument or the ability to sell spots.

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

You're really reaching if you're now using the cost to buy raids to back up your argument or the ability to sell spots.

 

I could say the same for you if you're quoting guilds for OW farming that no one practice reaches.

[Ayrilana.1396]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You don't understand how farms work, apparently. The efficiency is often not based on how fast you do the events, but on the way you do them. That is especially important in all the map farms that require keys to open chests - do the events in a bad order, or happen to miss some of them because they were started/finished by casuals when the zerg was on the other side of the map, and you suddenly lack keys to open all chests, which means your net income goes down. Be slightly slower, and you won't get to even in time to tag the event champ (because it dies in seconds) and you don't get the event rewards/keys/can't open chest. Run a build worse at tagging (or run the right build, but in an inefficient way), and you get less valuable drops. Same when having lower MF.

Even if the overall meta completion time is the same, you can end up with massive differences in incomes between attempts. Or even between different players during the same attempt. Completion time is only one of many factors you need to consider - and among those it's often one of the least important.

 

Those keys are obtained from doing the full meta cycle.  I don't recall any maps which require a specific order of events in order to have enough keys to open all of the chests.  There are guides out there listing builds and how to do various farms.  Players who choose to ignore them don't really count.  

[Ayrilana.1396]

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

I could say the same for you if you're quoting guilds for OW farming that no one practice reaches.

 

No one practice reaches?  What?  Can you clarify your post?

[Firebeard.1746]

1 minute ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

No one practice reaches?  What?  Can you clarify your post?

I've done DF and not hit their gold benchmarks?

[Ayrilana.1396]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

I've done DF and not hit their gold benchmarks?

 

Are you doing everything that they're doing which they factor in to their profit amount?

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Are you doing everything that they're doing which they factor in to their profit amount?

Can I control the 50+ other people to make sure they do all of that?

[Ayrilana.1396]

2 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Can I control the 50+ other people to make sure they do all of that?

 

I wasn't referring to the actions of the other players.

[Firebeard.1746]

5 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

I wasn't referring to the actions of the other players.

Except to reach those benchmarks they say that the players should be using particular builds, did you see that?

• 
  "Following an optimized rotation and tips / tricks mentioned in the Farming Guides: https://fast.farming-community.eu/farming/guides/
• DPS Killing bosses fast & efficiently with our Farming Builds: https://fast.farming-community.eu/farming/builds/
• Required masteries
• Required and recommended mounts
• Required Karmic Retribution and/or other map-specific buffs
• Recommended Guild Buff
• Recommended Permanent or Karmic Tools: https://fast.farming-community.eu/gathering/karmic-tools or https://fast.farming-community.eu/gathering/glyphs
• Gourmet Training Achievement unlocked (only Cook 425, Sylvari and Charr required) in order to loot cultivated seeds and cut of quality meat!

Gold per hour values will vary if you compare LFG runs with [fast] runs due to aforementioned requirements."

You obviously aren't even reading the site you're quoting at me to say that raids are better. And I've already told you how to handily beat these farm values in raids, just carry some people for some cash. It's hypocritical for you to say I'm not putting in the effort when you obviously aren't either and I would have to rely on other people using the right mounts, builds, rotations, etc.

Do you disagree with my assesment that we should be increasing rewards on the training/helping other players front? I haven't outright disagreed with your sentiment, but feel it should be focused in a certain place.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Mungo Zen.9364]

32 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

No one has ever told me that the reason they don't raid is the lack of rewards. The legendaries as a cost, are valuable enough to get people involved, this is an undisputed fact. Yes a static will fail, or will incur costs on a new encounter, but asymptotically, they earn more. Especially if you consider the value of the legendaries they're building. Heck, they only need to succeed on the harder encounters once for the collections, and the value of the LIs/LDs they get from just doing the easy ones weekly would handily beat OW farming, particularly if the OW farmers want the same legendaries.

And a single failure is usually just a few minutes, tops. It's not like a static constantly wiping on an encounter forever. Heck, my seller failed on their first try, but because they were selling and because they succeeded, they still easily broke the g/hr benchmarks on that stupid site.

 

What I am reading you say is that the ability to attain rewards in Raiding is on par or above those of OW content.  What I am not seeing is the correlation to investment for Raiding vs OW Farms and these rewards.  

 

If I want to Raid I need to find 9 other players who want to do the same content.  With OW content, I can just show up and start by myself, the number of other players is less relevant.

 

With Raiding, I need to work towards a quality static to ensure optimal gold per hour, with OW farming I can show up, have little knowledge of what is going on, and still get decent rewards.

 

With raiding, I am typically tied to a schedule for the raid group (training or static), and locked out once per week.  With OW I can farm (and in turn learn) the encounters many times a day.

 

With Raiding I am required to gear my character and run one of the set Meta builds, with OW I can do whatever I want.

 

With Raiding I am expected to 'learn the encounters' before I am deemed worthy of getting into a static.  Typically joining a Raid Training guild or the like, earn that LI or KP or whatever the thing today is.  OW I can show up, join a squad and ask questions in gen chat and get good responses to help me learn.

 

The investment for Raiding is far higher than that for Overworld.  Earning the 'same' gold in Raiding as OW doesn't account for the investment to earn that gold.

 

I would suggest you stop drawing comparisons between OW and Raiding if you aren't going to acknowledge all the differences.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Firebeard.1746]

6 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

 

What I am reading you say is that the ability to attain rewards in Raiding is on par or above those of OW content.  What I am not seeing is the correlation to investment for Raiding vs OW Farms and these rewards.  

 

If I want to Raid I need to find 9 other players who want to do the same content.  With OW content, I can just show up and start by myself, the number of other players is less relevant.

 

With Raiding, I need to work towards a quality static to ensure optimal gold per hour, with OW farming I can show up, have little knowledge of what is going on, and still get decent rewards.

 

With raiding, I am typically tied to a schedule for the raid group (training or static), and locked out once per week.  With OW I can farm (and in turn learn) the encounters many times a day.

 

With Raiding I am required to gear my character and run one of the set Meta builds, with OW I can do whatever I want.

 

With Raiding I am expected to 'learn the encounters' before I am deemed worthy of getting into a static.  Typically joining a Raid Training guild or the like, earn that LI or KP or whatever the thing today is.  OW I can show up, join a squad and ask questions in gen chat and get good responses to help me learn.

 

The investment for Raiding is far higher than that for Overworld.  Earning the 'same' gold in Raiding as OW doesn't account for the investment to earn that gold.

 

I would suggest you stop drawing comparisons between OW and Raiding if you aren't going to acknowledge all the differences.

Except most of these elements exist in the optimized OW farming Ayrilana is quoting. They require specific builds, you'd need enough people present to pack the map with optimized farmers (hence requiring schedule) and you'd need people who not only know the maps but how to do them efficiently. And you'd need EVEN MORE PEOPLE.

I generally agree comparing the two is stupid, and don't entirely disagree with the sentiment of buffing rewards, but if they're buffed, they need to be focused on bringing more people in. But I honestly don't think that's the real issue.

Some raids in WoW have actually felt fun, I don't feel joy when I'm doing the encounters. And their design doesn't match the community.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Astralporing.1957]

42 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Those keys are obtained from doing the full meta cycle.  I don't recall any maps which require a specific order of events in order to have enough keys to open all of the chests.  There are guides out there listing builds and how to do various farms.  Players who choose to ignore them don't really count.  

SW for example needs farmers to tag the keep defence events to keep up with the key usage at the chestfarming part of the farming rotation. And someone needs to actually do those events. If the rest of the map does not defend the keeps, or does not try to recapture them after the defence fails, farmers need to do it on their own, which slows down things (and key acquisition rate). Same with all other events on the way - like dolyak escort ones. Farm zergs usually count on them to be finished by non-farmers (and them only tagging stuff to get more key chances). Any disturbance in this results in lower number of keys obtained (due to less bandit crests).

Similar stuff can happen in other maps - you often get keys (or currency to buy keys) by doing events on the way. If those events are, for example, done "out of order" by some other group of players, this throws a wrench in the whole precise calculation, which affects the total result. Additionally, as i mentioned before, some players in the farm zerg may be slower than the others, and thus end up not tagging some events (losing out on the rewards).

 

That's the "keys" example. Like i said there are also other considerations. For example, the best option for Halloween Labyrinth farm is to do as little damage as possible, to allow the whole zerg to farm stuff. If one player does not follow that and goes full zerker with mass aoe, they may end up lowering rewards for everyone else. Same with some players starting/doing doors outside of the main zerg.

 

BTW, i find it curious, that you at the same time point out that the average raider is far off from what top raiders can accomplish (and thus does stuff slower), but insist on ignoring inefficient farmers in the comparison (when the efficient farmers are as rare among the all farmers as top tier raiders are within the raiding community).

Edited May 2, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Mungo Zen.9364]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Except most of these elements exist in the optimized OW farming Ayrilana is quoting. They require specific builds, you'd need enough people present to pack the map with optimized farmers (hence requiring schedule) and you'd need people who not only know the maps but how to do them efficiently. And you'd need EVEN MORE PEOPLE.

I generally agree comparing the two is stupid, and don't entirely disagree with the sentiment of buffing rewards, but if they're buffed, they need to be focused on bringing more people in. But I honestly don't think that's the real issue.

Some raids in WoW have actually felt fun. And their design doesn't match the community.

 

But Overworld rarely requires you have 'the best' farmers available.  I am a lazy player, I have Ascended gear, but it isn't optimal for my build, and I change my build all the time, so it is far from Meta.  I would actually suggest I have a very good OW build as it can tag many mobs fast and also buffs allies (which gives you reward inclusion) and I don't ever die.

 

No, the thing that makes OW farming profitable is that I can do it solo, at my own pace, with my own engagement.  I agree that Raiding gold per hour should be buffed not because the top tier raiders can make great gold, but because an average OW player can make better gold outside of raids.

 

Take away Raid Lockouts, limit Raid Collections and Achievements to weekly,  increase raid G/Hour via trash drops.

 

 

Changes like those mean anyone can raid anytime, it doesn't dumb down the content with easy mode, doesn't devalue the existing collections by making them easier, it gives Vets a reason to run with Newbs.

 

That last point I think is the most important.  Vets currently are incentivized to NOT run with new players.  New players = slower runs = weaker G/H.  Yes giving more rewards doesn't change that dynamic, but by combining that with unlimited runs per week, I would bet we will find many raiders looking to do multiple runs per week just to farm the gold, and more willing to bring newer players along.  

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

Buffing rewards isn't going to make raids attractive to reluctant players so raids can be long-term sustainable game content. 

 

Given the choice, what do you think players in this game most likely want to do?

 

1. Content they don't like that showers them with loot

2. Content they really like that doesn't. 

 

I can tell you EXACTLY what happens to the players that do content they don't like in an MMO, whether it showers them with loot or not ...

Edited May 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

 

But Overworld rarely requires you have 'the best' farmers available.  I am a lazy player, I have Ascended gear, but it isn't optimal for my build, and I change my build all the time, so it is far from Meta.  I would actually suggest I have a very good OW build as it can tag many mobs fast and also buffs allies (which gives you reward inclusion) and I don't ever die.

 

No, the thing that makes OW farming profitable is that I can do it solo, at my own pace, with my own engagement.

Sure, but don't even try to pretend that in such casual approach to those farms your gold/h is going to be anywhere close to the farm potential level (as shown on farming sites). A casual farmer will often be unable to reach even half that amount (with usually getting worse results than even that).

[Mungo Zen.9364]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

BTW, i find it curious, that you at the same time point out that the average raider is far off from what top raiders can accomplish (and thus does stuff slower), but insist on ignoring inefficient farmers in the comparison (when the efficient farmers are as rare among the all farmers as top tier raiders are within the raiding community).

 

In OW though, a bad farmer doesn't affect others as directly as in a raid.  You didn't get enough keys, that is on you.  Didn't hit enough events to optimize your returns, that is on you.  Didn't start a Squad or put it in LFG, that's on you, didn't check LFG for a full map.....on you..... and it really only affects you.

 

 

If I slow down my raid group because I don't have the right gear or buffs, I am messing with 9 other players time.

 

If I am an average raider in a group with excellent raiders, I am slowing them down.

 

If I am an average player in an OW Meta, I am generally not slowing anyone down.  Mostly due to the idea that OW Meta only really need 5-10 players actually doing the right thing.

[Firebeard.1746]

9 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

 

But Overworld rarely requires you have 'the best' farmers available.  I am a lazy player, I have Ascended gear, but it isn't optimal for my build, and I change my build all the time, so it is far from Meta.  I would actually suggest I have a very good OW build as it can tag many mobs fast and also buffs allies (which gives you reward inclusion) and I don't ever die.

 

No, the thing that makes OW farming profitable is that I can do it solo, at my own pace, with my own engagement.  I agree that Raiding gold per hour should be buffed not because the top tier raiders can make great gold, but because an average OW player can make better gold outside of raids.

 

Take away Raid Lockouts, limit Raid Collections and Achievements to weekly,  increase raid G/Hour via trash drops.

 

 

Changes like those mean anyone can raid anytime, it doesn't dumb down the content with easy mode, doesn't devalue the existing collections by making them easier, it gives Vets a reason to run with Newbs.

 

That last point I think is the most important.  Vets currently are incentivized to NOT run with new players.  New players = slower runs = weaker G/H.  Yes giving more rewards doesn't change that dynamic, but by combining that with unlimited runs per week, I would bet we will find many raiders looking to do multiple runs per week just to farm the gold, and more willing to bring newer players along.  

 

 

 

Then they would need to shower gold on players for engaging the boss and DPSing it basically, sucess be damned. But I'm not really sure that would work.

I do WvW. It's anything but really profitable. Like yes you could make money off of it, but it doesn't really compete well with other forms of income. But why do I do it? It's fun. Other game modes are competitive with what I want from WvW, but I have a fun guild, and I can do it at my own pace. The static thing I agree doesn't really help raids.. I think there is also a fun factor or something missing. If you really think about it, the community is actually hyper-focused on rewards when they play raids. That's really the only reason they're doing them. That's why everyone does them in statics. That's why there's KP requirements. Everyone who does them is optimizing reward/hr.