Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

  8 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

I think the point of contention  was that the first suggestion for 'earn in-game' was repeat content 1000 times. 

That would effectively make it just as rare as very low-percentage RNG.

 

So, I suppose, it would not matter which was utilized.  Most of the playerbase would still go without, and lament the process.  🤷‍♀️

Not sure why you quoted a post from a completely different thread here.

It would make much more sense if you removed my post. 

 

I'm not sure if I've ever even posted in this thread (until now), and since there isn't even an opening post....

Edited May 22, 2021 by Inculpatus cedo.9234

[Linken.6345]

4 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

 

Not sure why you quoted a post from a completely different thread here.

It would make much more sense if you removed my post. 

 

I'm not sure if I've ever even posted in this thread (until now), and since there isn't even an opening post....

 

Dident see I quoted 2 posts fixed it now.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

On 5/21/2021 at 10:57 PM, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

This is probably one of the few times you and I will ever agree on something.

 

That point of view is also why I honestly believe a certain level of envy definitely plays a part, as well as the hypercompetitive nature of people these days. Its why if you load into practically any Battle Royale game after its been out for like 2 to 3 months and you just wanna casually play through it; all you'll probably get hit with in the match is people sweatlording and tryharding as if they are going to win an actual money prize for winning the match. You see it in GW2 Unranked sPvP matches. People getting so absolutely upset if things start to not be in favor of their team even though Unranked has literally no elo rating or ranking system. Winning or losing literally does not matter in it.

 

The envy part you can just see in the entitlement mentality we also see far, far more often. Essentially it boils down to "They were able to get something I don't have" and it applies to not just people having money to purchase said thing, but also apparently even if they see someone earn it through many, many hours of gameplay. "Well that isn't fair, they can play more hours a day than I can".

 

At a certain point it just gets ridiculous and we've hit that point.

In PvP , even unranked, u pour all your efforts , passion and the eventual victory or loss will definitely affect you and u envy the victorious if you're not one of them. This envy can only be sated by fighting the same opponents and get an overwhelming victory.

 

The envy that you feel from looking at someone else's newly bought gemstore skin can be sated in n number of ways... U use your in-game gold , sell items to get gold or purchase gems to get the skin... 

The skin doesn't disappear from the store overnight...

Now what ure saying is you won't put efforts to earn gold in-game (fractals, gold farming, daily, event gold, raids) to reach the goal to buy that gemstore skin and will still feel envy? Is that your idea of win/loss? It's like a guy who's watching a 100m dash sprint Olympic event on a television from his home and feeling envy that he didn't win.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

On 5/21/2021 at 11:11 PM, yann.1946 said:

 

Honestly about the p2w thing i think i disagree.

I think it would be way more productive to just define p2w as all real world currency buyable upgrades to accounts. And then switch the discussion to what p2w is acceptable.

For example lets just say expacs are p2w and then argue why they are acceptable.

 

This whole tread is a great example because people are getting stuck in semantic arguments about the definition of p2w instead of the way more interesting point about what forms of buyables are acceptable.

If you turn your idea to "buying expacs" is a p2w, lemme ask u this... Is buying food in irl p2w? Buying a mobile phone p2w? Buying windows OS p2w? Paying tuition for college p2w?

Ure Totally confusing the idea of p2w...

Gw2 expansions can be called as different softwares that need to be purchased to play they are a one time purchase unlike other MMOs where u pay a premium every month ... U can call WOW a pay to win or pay constantly to play pc2p

[KryTiKaL.3125]

14 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

In PvP , even unranked, u pour all your efforts , passion and the eventual victory or loss will definitely affect you and u envy the victorious if you're not one of them. This envy can only be sated by fighting the same opponents and get an overwhelming victory.

 

The envy that you feel from looking at someone else's newly bought gemstore skin can be sated in n number of ways... U use your in-game gold , sell items to get gold or purchase gems to get the skin... 

The skin doesn't disappear from the store overnight...

Now what ure saying is you won't put efforts to earn gold in-game (fractals, gold farming, daily, event gold, raids) to reach the goal to buy that gemstore skin and will still feel envy? Is that your idea of win/loss? It's like a guy who's watching a 100m dash sprint Olympic event on a television from his home and feeling envy that he didn't win.

To clarify, because it seems you did not quite understand what my post said, is that other people feel that level of envy. I was not saying that I feel that envy.

 

I'm actually kind of confused as to where you got the idea that I feel envy over what skins someone has or whatever. I think you completely misinterpreted my post for some reason and I can't figure out how. I feel like it was very clear. Lost in translation maybe?

[yann.1946]

7 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

If you turn your idea to "buying expacs" is a p2w, lemme ask u this... Is buying food in irl p2w? Buying a mobile phone p2w? Buying windows OS p2w? Paying tuition for college p2w?

Ure Totally confusing the idea of p2w...

Gw2 expansions can be called as different softwares that need to be purchased to play they are a one time purchase unlike other MMOs where u pay a premium every month ... U can call WOW a pay to win or pay constantly to play pc2p

All these things have no relationship to the game so why would that matter. 

Also I feel like you missed the entire point of my response. It is to point out that people atm define p2w as these buyables in the game which they dislike / consider bad for the game.  

 

This makes it so people keep pretending they are arguing some objective definition while in reality they are baking their conclusion into their definition. 

 

I'd like to move the conversation to a more productive place by framing it in a better way, namely what buyables are okay and why. 

[Dawdler.8521]

On 5/21/2021 at 9:51 PM, Malitias.8453 said:

I really don't have an answer for the question other than "it doesn't affect PvP".

Which isnt really the correct way to look at it either.

 

Lets say that GW2 had... heal potions that heal 30% of your HP. HP do regenerate over time but of course incredibly slow at level 80. You get 50 free pots at daily logon and more is available in the gemstore.

 

There you go, something that doesnt block your pve or pvp gameplay. You got 50 free pots after all!

 

... wait you want to heal after your daily pots has run out?

 

Well if you dont want to pay you can always wait the 20 minutes it take for your HP to go 0-100.

 

Oh and btw - when you die it doesnt reset your HP. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

If you turn your idea to "buying expacs" is a p2w, lemme ask u this... Is buying food in irl p2w? Buying a mobile phone p2w? Buying windows OS p2w? Paying tuition for college p2w?

Well, the real world is indeed very much built around the p2w principle. Those with money generally do have it easier than those without, which translates in an advantage in next generation, and so on, and so on...

So, probably a bad example.

[Dawdler.8521]

35 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, the real world is indeed very much built around the p2w principle. Those with money generally do have it easier than those without, which translates in an advantage in next generation, and so on, and so on...

So, probably a bad example.

US healthcare probably being the best example, compared to the more civilized countries of the world.

[Veprovina.4876]

Some of the things i observed reading this thread:

 

1. Buying the full game when the game has what basically ammounts to a huge free demo is pay to win.

2. You can win at fashion wars (even though fashion wars is a play on words on Guild Wars and has nothing to do with competition or battle), but only if you buy something from the gem shop with real money. You can't possibly win fashion wars by having your character look the way YOU want and that being the starter armor. You also apparently can't convert gold to gems and get something from the shop that way.

3. Convenience is winning.

4. Pay to win means i'm jelous someone else has more shiny stuff than me so they won and i lost and this game is pay to win because the shinier player paid for their shiny. You still can't convert gold to gems and get that exact shiny.

5. Every business practice in the game shop i don't agree with is pay to win.

6. You win by avoiding gameplay.

7. You win by having the exact same gear strength as everyone else. But only if you bought gold with gems to have that gear sooner.

8. You win by having a full game in PvP where everyone's equipment is standardized and the only difference between 2 people of the same exact build is someone's skill. But you won by having 2 extra build choices.

9. You can't complete the game and play the endgame content if you haven't bought a skin in the cash shop.

10. Winning is everything. Enjoying the game at your pace means you're a loser.

 

This thread is hilarious, please don't let it die! 😅

[Leo G.4501]

On 5/18/2021 at 6:20 PM, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

If the shoe fits. There's literally no Pay to Win in this game, by any stretch of the imagination. The things people in this thread have called "Pay to Win" are downright hilarious; Bank Slots, Inventory Slots, Expansions, Elite Specs. The level of entitlement in this thread....

 

 

How about buying gold?

 

On 5/18/2021 at 7:03 PM, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

I want to preface this by saying I am by no means one of GW2s biggest supporters right now, especially not now, and will probably criticize ANet and this game more than I will praise it...

 

But what exactly is it that you're buying with the gold converted from gems that translates to anything "pay to win"? Gear is comparatively irrelevant on GW2 compared to practically any other MMORPG on the market. You barely even need Ascended gear and you don't "need" Legendaries for anything.

Circumventing grind. You pay cash, now you can buy the things other people grind for. I've made a few legendary weapons, one with the backlog of stuff I saved, one with cash and one with good old fashion gold grind+farming. What do you get from it? A weapon with the best stats that you can freely alter. 

 

I'm not saying is super P2W but it IS an advantage both for upgrade conservation, inventory conservation, effective gear and some of them look cool to boot. Trying to play it off as purely convenience is just delusional.

[Leo G.4501]

On 5/20/2021 at 3:05 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

Okay name an MMO that's not pay to win. I'll wait here.

Final Fantasy 11.

[Leo G.4501]

On 5/20/2021 at 2:38 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

That makes no sense to me.  How can someone else's subjective opinion on what is "perfect equip" be a win condition?  Whom do they defeat?  Does that win versus every other player in GW2?  Heck, the equipment that I use right now is perfect for me.  Does that mean I win now?

"OMG, how can someone have opinions and disagree with me!? I only have facts and logic and am right. How dare you disagree with my 100% fact-based conclusions!"

 

I also find it funny that the only way to "win" is to make someone else a loser. You could even say, paying to gear up and get the highest DPS in your raid and carry is a win but the GW2 conditioning says everyone benefits thus no loser exists.

 

A lot of the mechanics in the game itself has trivialized "losing" which could be a contributing factor in why you don't see as many "losers" outside of PvP. Not saying it's a bad thing but stop trying to define winning by the losers when the game actively dampens the result of losing. 

[Leo G.4501]

On 5/20/2021 at 6:58 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

You know, I've had some time to think about this and I think I can see where the disconnect is on some people.

A few people see Guild Wars 2 as predominantly free to play. To those people, this game is pay to win because you eventually have to spend money to get the real game.

However, a bunch of us see the game as buy to play.  This is the same as Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 was buy to play as well. Each Guild Wars 1 expansion added skills you got in PvE that were more powerful than any native skill. Necrosis anyone?  These Luxon and Kurzick and Deldrimar skills (to name a few) gave people really powerful PvE only skills that only came with the purchase of expansions. But at no time did I ever heard the term pay to win applied to Guild Wars 1 in the 15,000 hours I put into it. No one called Guild Wars 1 pay to win, because it was buy to play.  Guild Wars 2 is the same. It's buy to play with a very long free demo.

 

At the end of the day as a buy to play game, which this game started as, Guild Wars 2 is not pay to win. 

Furthermore, Guild Wars 1 would have been MORE pay to win than Guild Wars 2 because it sold unlocks in the cash shop that really did give you power a lot faster. It unlocked skills and elite skills for your heroes once Nightfall came out, but again you could get that stuff easily enough in game. It was just a time saver.

 

Pay to win never counted for expansions in games back in the day for this reason. When the term was invented there were no free to play MMOs. Not one. Every single MMO had a sub. Guild Wars 1 didn't have a sub, nor was it an MMO.  And as already pointed out, even Guild Wars 1 raised the power cap with games.

The game is buy to play which is different from pay to win. 

 

Applaud the effort but it misses a lot of nuance in an attempt to minimalize a talking point, basically to dismiss it. To really get the big-brain perspective, you have to be willing to see the argument from the position of your opposition.

[maddoctor.2738]

46 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Final Fantasy 11.

 

Isn't that a pay to win subscription based game?

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Leo G.4501 said:

 

How about buying gold?

 

On 5/23/2021 at 7:23 PM, Veprovina.4876 said:

7. You win by having the exact same gear strength as everyone else. But only if you bought gold with gems to have that gear sooner.

 

 

🤣

[Leo G.4501]

On 5/21/2021 at 10:03 AM, killerkram.5129 said:

If you define winning as getting more money then yes. More bag slots, more bank slots, infinite gathering tools with buffs, warps to exclusive areas that make crafting more convenient, max level boosts, instant access to merchants/black lion merchant from anywhere, instant repair from anywhere (this one is really stretching, who even uses this? maybe raiders?) and so on. 

Considering my time is being spread among many activities to include many other games, one thing I consider "winning" is finishing. Completionists out there have a similar win condition but it's not so in depth as that. To explain: I set tasks and goals to complete in the game. Some things are fast and require playing the game to obtain (WvW tokens, mount unlocks, etc). Other things require farming. Because there are such variety of objectives in the game, being able to swipe a card to finish or "win". Paying to progress is a form of P2W which you can indeed do.

[Leo G.4501]

On 5/21/2021 at 1:41 PM, yann.1946 said:

 

Honestly about the p2w thing i think i disagree.

I think it would be way more productive to just define p2w as all real world currency buyable upgrades to accounts. And then switch the discussion to what p2w is acceptable.

For example lets just say expacs are p2w and then argue why they are acceptable.

 

This whole tread is a great example because people are getting stuck in semantic arguments about the definition of p2w instead of the way more interesting point about what forms of buyables are acceptable.

I was having that discussion back on page 2...

[alcopaul.2156]

if you mean winning as having all the top-tier shiny stuffs on your character and you want it done at no time, yes, buying gems to gold requires you to pay and buying them makes you win fast..

 

but you just need full ascended armor and weapons with the right runes and sigils to be placed in the balanced character configuration. and there are lots of epic armor designs that can be gotten via normal playing..

[Leo G.4501]

On 5/22/2021 at 7:07 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

My money is on the odds that most people don't choose the latter. The vast majority I'd wager.

Are you sure about that?

[Leo G.4501]

45 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

Isn't that a pay to win subscription based game?

No, it's just a subscription game. Buying currency is against the ToS, you can't buy your way past content and the jobs in later expansions are no more powerful than all other jobs.

[Leo G.4501]

26 minutes ago, alcopaul.2156 said:

if you mean winning as having all the top-tier shiny stuffs on your character and you want it done at no time, yes, buying gems to gold requires you to pay and buying them makes you win fast..

 

but you just need full ascended armor and weapons with the right runes and sigils to be placed in the balanced character configuration. and there are lots of epic armor designs that can be gotten via normal playing..

If you're replying to me, then no, it's not having the top tier shiny stuff, it's finishing. Finishing can pertain to a lot of things and winning doesn't mean someone loses. Finishing could be map completion, it could be story completion, it could be legendary crafting or finally obtaining your griffin mount. Some of those activities require gold which would otherwise require grind. Buying the gold to pay to finish (since you're traumatized by saying "win") falls under this discussion. I'm sorry if you disagree.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Leo G.4501

[maddoctor.2738]

4 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

No, it's just a subscription game. Buying currency is against the ToS, you can't buy your way past content and the jobs in later expansions are no more powerful than all other jobs.

 

A subscription game is by definition pay 2 win since you need to pay to even play it.

If you want a better comparison is between buying the equivalent of a subscription in gems, taking a 14.99$ / month subscription and comparing it with a 1200 gem card that has the exact same cost (15$). Now the question is if those 1200 a month are enough to skip the so called "Grind" that you must pay to do so, compared to the exact same cost for supposedly not having that kind of grind in a subscription game.

[Leo G.4501]

5 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

A subscription game is by definition pay 2 win since you need to pay to even play it.

If you want a better comparison is between buying the equivalent of a subscription in gems, taking a 14.99$ / month subscription and comparing it with a 1200 gem card that has the exact same cost (15$). Now the question is if those 1200 a month are enough to skip the so called "Grind" that you must pay to do so, compared to the exact same cost for supposedly not having that kind of grind in a subscription game.

You decided to completely circumvent discussion.

 

You don't pay gems to play the game so no matter what gem equivalent you want to state, your comparison is incongruent.

[maddoctor.2738]

1 minute ago, Leo G.4501 said:

You decided to completely circumvent discussion.

 

You don't pay gems to play the game so no matter what gem equivalent you want to state, your comparison is incongruent.

I gave you the equivalent of an amount of money you MUST pay to play a subscription based game, let alone win it.