perm stealth

[NuhDah.9812]

1 hour ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I don't think I've joined this circus yet, so I'm going to leave my two cents. 

The more Thief gets nerfed the higher the skill floor gets. It's not terribly hard to pick up a Shadow Arts Thief and to have moderate success, but anything else takes a certain level practice compared to most other classes/specs (that's not to say Thief is far and away the highest skill floor, just that as time has gone on it has become harder to succeed with one without a lot of knowledge). 

I believe Thief and Revenant are the only two classes with "near" infinite skill ceilings. You can always improve with them just because of the way they're designed. They have flexible tools and unique skill interaction that means as long as your reflexes and strategies are improving, so too will your results. Other classes will eventually plateau in that you could watch any of the "best" on that given class and see little difference in how they handle fights.

Not really the point of the thread, I just wanted to say that because I think it'll better outline the following.

Stealth is poorly designed in GW2. There are lots of ways to deal with it, but a lot of it is also guesswork, and it doesn't feel good to spend a skill(s) anticipating followup when the Thief decided not to attack. Someone camping Stealth can force you to burn resources by doing literally nothing but making you anxious, and yet using skills in anticipation is still the right way to handle it because leaving yourself open is just as dangerous.
Meaning there's really no right move after they've entered Stealth, the only right move is to stop them from entering Stealth at all. But then we have the next problem which is instant Stealth access like gaining Stealth on Withdraw (an Evade which only a handful of things can interrupt) on dodge with Deadeye, Blinding Powder, etc.
Of course, Thief has resources too, so I'm not saying all of this as though it can dig in to a magical bag of instantly recharged cooldowns. More or less I'm talking about low cost resources like D/P 2 -> 5 or DE on dodge.

The point is that fighting a Stealth heavy build doesn't have much counterplay. It's there, but with a little distance on the field, the Thief can greatly reduce your chances to employ that counterplay. And thus no one likes to fight it because you know there are situations proper skill will do next to nothing (sometimes literally nothing) to end the fight.

With that said, and kind of going back to what I wrote in the first half of this, Thief has been repeatedly nerfed and a big part of the reason so many play this kind of build is because it's forgiving, which Thief as a whole is not, and because it's one of the few things left Thief has that's still effective. That isn't to say non-Shadow Arts builds can't work however, just that they're much harder to play and typically only experienced and stubborn Thieves will do so.

And I can't say I blame some of them for playing SA... It doesn't feel good to fight it for the reasons I outlined above... And guess what, it doesn't feel good to fight a lot of things as a Thief without Shadow Arts too. Because random passive procs and sustain heavy builds can neuter a Thief's ability to kill and they're punished a lot more heavily for missing critically timed interrupts or bursts. That's why so often they'll hard kite or OOC if they do, because they don't have the sustain to stay in a fight after missing their opportunity to turn it. Shadow Arts lets them have that "sustain".

Honestly, players just need to learn to accept that if Thieves are to have any viability, it's either going to be as high Stealth uptime builds, or high spike builds. It's a +1 class designed to hit you when your back is turned, what do you expect? I'd rather get spiked by a Thief than a Ranger anyway because at least they risk taking damage while hitting me.
 

 

Only wanted to mention that it's been a while since Blinding Powder isn't instant anymore. it's true the cast time is small and after that change it also breaks stun, but there were other advantages to it when it was instant too, and with a bit of reflexes and prediction it can be interrupted.

Edited June 3, 2021 by NuhDah.9812

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, szeng.1267 said:

So if someone sucker punched a guy but wasn't able to knock him out but was able to successfully run away lost and some how the person that got sucker punched won? What kind of mental gymnastics are YOU attempting? 

That example doesn't even apply. 

[kash.9213]

The page kitten out two posts but this thread is a steaming pile already so whatever. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by kash.9213

[szeng.1267]

10 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

That example doesn't even apply. 

How is escaping a situation in which you would have otherwise died considered losing? Since when is survival losing?

 

If running away equals losing, please buff everyone else's disengaging abilities so we can all "lose" more often.

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, szeng.1267 said:

How is escaping a situation in which you would have otherwise died considered losing? Since when is survival losing?

 

If running away equals losing, please buff everyone else's disengaging abilities so we can all "lose" more often.

 

Oh, it's quite simple! It's "losing" because he didn't get ezpzlemonzsquezy bag from you after he was dancing around you for 5min in stealth.
I would add something like: If you engange in combat(you're the first to hit enemy) and then decide to run away from it, you instantly die the moment you're out of combat(in 5v5 situations or less).
Imagine all the bags you would collect from deadeyes or other cheese lovers.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 5/31/2021 at 3:58 PM, Sreoom.3690 said:

Do what I did, roll a thief and play it, it isn't as easy as you think.

 

It is absolutely as easy as they think because stealth/mobility allow you to walk away from any fight you are losing.  It doesn't get any more forgiving than that!

[Sobx.1758]

7 hours ago, szeng.1267 said:

How is escaping a situation in which you would have otherwise died considered losing? Since when is survival losing?

 

If running away equals losing, please buff everyone else's disengaging abilities so we can all "lose" more often.

 

You fight over the point, you run, you lost. Seems rather obvious. Even just running from a fight is pretty obviously the equivalent of losing, but I guess it somehow won't go through to you without adding the actual objective, so here it is: whatever glowy circle you want/need to cap.

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[AliamRationem.5172]

20 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You fight over the point, you run, you lost. Seems rather obvious. Even just running from a fight is pretty obviously the equivalent of losing, but I guess it somehow won't go through to you without adding the actual objective, so here it is: whatever glowy circle you want/need to cap.

 

 

Try answering the question another way.  What makes thief perpetually the most popular roamer?  If they're just losing every which way, why are there 10 thieves for every other class out there roaming?  Cmon guys, stop defending this garbage design...

[szeng.1267]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You fight over the point, you run, you lost. Seems rather obvious. Even just running from a fight is pretty obviously the equivalent of losing, but I guess it somehow won't go through to you without adding the actual objective, so here it is: whatever glowy circle you want/need to cap.

 

What point? I ain't fighting over no point. Flipping camps ain't winning. You staying on point and dying like you otherwise would have if you didn't have godlike disengage is me winning.

 

Cut the crap, running from a fight isn't losing. It's you trying to groom people into rethinking what winning and losing means to justify you having godlike disengage.

 

Let me keep my godlike disengages and when I use them against you, just think of it as you winning. Me being able to escape from you is you winning. I'm doing you a solid by having godlike disengages.

 

Ain't nobody falling for that. How dumb do you think we are?

 

 

[kash.9213]

46 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

What point? I ain't fighting over no point. Flipping camps ain't winning. You staying on point and dying like you otherwise would have if you didn't have godlike disengage is me winning.

 

Cut the crap, running from a fight isn't losing. It's you trying to groom people into rethinking what winning and losing means to justify you having godlike disengage.

 

Let me keep my godlike disengages and when I use them against you, just think of it as you winning. Me being able to escape from you is you winning. I'm doing you a solid by having godlike disengages.

 

Ain't nobody falling for that. How dumb do you think we are?

 

 

Any disengage takes slots. Even the disengage skills that I mentioned before being broken still take the place of something else that could make damage a little more comparable or bring more control to break through your mitigation and health. Facts are still facts though, if you sent the other person away from the objective or the kill because they can't beat you, then you literally won the fight by points. 

 

If you want to discuss what could be changed or adjusted about the class then let's do that, but your angry childish ranting makes it hard to support anything you're trying to say because your feedback is damaging to the class and the game instead of actually dealing with any issue. If that's the energy you bring to the forums I'd hate to be your keyboard. 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

10 hours ago, szeng.1267 said:

How is escaping a situation in which you would have otherwise died considered losing? Since when is survival losing?

 

If running away equals losing, please buff everyone else's disengaging abilities so we can all "lose" more often.

 

Two people get in a fist fight, both land blows, one guy is standing his ground and the other feels the need to run as the fights not going his way. Who would u consider won the fight? I kno who I would.  Man players contort things often to be in favor of their stance taken haha.

The thief ran for a reason, he definitely didn't run because things were going in his favor lol, cmon. Threads becoming embarrassing for the gw2 community and needs closed.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Two people get in a fist fight, both land blows, one guy is standing his ground and the other feels the need to run as the fights not going his way. Who would u consider won the fight? I kno who I would.  Man players contort things often to be in favor of their stance taken haha.

The thief ran for a reason, he definitely didn't run because things were going in his favor lol, cmon. Threads becoming embarrassing for the gw2 community and needs closed.

Ye and that guy comes back after 5min and stabs you with a knife, now, who won a "fight" ?

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, szeng.1267 said:

What point?

As I said, any, be it in pvp or wvw. How did you not understand that? Literally, how?

 

Quote

I ain't fighting over no point.

Cool, it's your choice to ignore the objectives of the mode you're playing, how does it change anything I said?

 

Quote

Flipping camps ain't winning.

It's part of it though, whether you like it or not.

 

Quote

You staying on point and dying like you otherwise would have if you didn't have godlike disengage is me winning.

That's winning too. Still doesn't change what I said.

 

Quote

Cut the crap,

Already did above, now you.

 

Quote

running from a fight isn't losing.

Next time the boxer is losing the match, s/he should just run away and claim they didn't lose, they just ran away I guess 🙃

 

Quote

It's you trying to groom people into rethinking what winning and losing means to justify you having godlike disengage.

No, it's me meaning EXACTLY what I wrote above, you trying to spin it whichever way to fit your narrative just because you have nothing relevant to answer doesn't change that. Neither does the fact that you choose to ignore objectives in the mode you play in. (cutting the crap btw)

 

3 hours ago, szeng.1267 said:

Ain't nobody falling for that. How dumb do you think we are?

Nice bait , but I'm not insulting anyone  😁

Edited June 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If they're just losing every which way, why are there 10 thieves for every other class out there roaming? 

I'd start with a different question: can I make up my own numbers too or is this ability reserved just for you?

Edited June 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[szeng.1267]

41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

As I said, any, be it in pvp or wvw. How did you not understand that? Literally, how?

 

Cool, it's your choice to ignore the objectives of the mode you're playing it, how does it change anything I said?

 

It's part of it though, whether you like it or not.

 

That's winning too. Still doesn't change what I said.

 

Already did above, now you.

 

Next time the boxer is losing the match, s/he should just run away and claim they didn't lose, they just ran away I guess 🙃

 

No, it's me meaning EXACTLY what I wrote above, you trying to spin it whichever way to fit your narrative just because you have nothing relevant to answer doesn't change that. Neither does the fact that you choose to ignore objectives in the mode you play in. (cutting the crap btw)

 

Nice bait , but I'm not insulting anyone  😁

You would have died otherwise. What part of that do you not understand? I would have flipped camp AND got the kill. Just like how you would have if you won the fight cuz most people can't run from you. What makes you so entitled to thinking that if you win you deserve both but if others win they only deserve to flip the camp?

 

If your objective is to flip camps all day good for you.  I'm not choosing to ignore anything. You are ignoring the fact wvw is also designed for players to fight and kill each other. Fighting and killing is as much as an objective as flipping camps. Killing the enemy in PvP to take them out of the match is as much an objective as anything. YOU are ignoring the killing aspect of this game to better your it's ok if I run away you don't have to kill me argument.

 

You playing the class with the most abusive disengage in game telling people that you disengaging is them winning is me trying to spin kitten to fit my narrative? I'm pretty sure this is me calling you out on your BS.

 

 

[szeng.1267]

3 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Any disengage takes slots. Even the disengage skills that I mentioned before being broken still take the place of something else that could make damage a little more comparable or bring more control to break through your mitigation and health. Facts are still facts though, if you sent the other person away from the objective or the kill because they can't beat you, then you literally won the fight by points. 

 

If you want to discuss what could be changed or adjusted about the class then let's do that, but your angry childish ranting makes it hard to support anything you're trying to say because your feedback is damaging to the class and the game instead of actually dealing with any issue. If that's the energy you bring to the forums I'd hate to be your keyboard. 

I know that you have to give up a slot the take disengaging skills. That's not the point. My point is having the ability to choose when you want to leave is not considered a disadvantages and choosing to leave on your own terms is not losing.

 

I'm not damaging your class in anyway I never said thieves need to be deleted or anything like that but the whole whack a mole style of your class is annoying a lot of people. I rather have 10 good matches against anyone else and lose all 10 than to play whack a mole against a thief and "win" (have them run away) everytime.

 

I'm not angry. You are reading my post angrily. Read it again with your happy voice.

Edited June 4, 2021 by szeng.1267

[szeng.1267]

2 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Two people get in a fist fight, both land blows, one guy is standing his ground and the other feels the need to run as the fights not going his way. Who would u consider won the fight? I kno who I would.  Man players contort things often to be in favor of their stance taken haha.

The thief ran for a reason, he definitely didn't run because things were going in his favor lol, cmon. Threads becoming embarrassing for the gw2 community and needs closed.

Two people in a fist fight but only one of them is able to run when kitten goes south. Who has the unfair advantage? The thief ran for a reason? Hell I think everyone also want to be able to run for whatever reason.

 

Embarrassing indeed.

Edited June 4, 2021 by szeng.1267

[Sobx.1758]

8 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

You would have died otherwise. What part of that do you not understand?

Yes, if someone didn't run, they'd probably die, both of those cases is losing. What I don't understand here is what are you even responding to right now? and how does this change anything from what I wrote above? 

For now it just looks like you just REAAAAALLY wanted to write "what do you not understand?" back to me, but wasn't sure what exactly to write. All the while dodging my actual question 🤔 How about you go back to that post and start responding to what I write?

 

8 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

I would have flipped camp AND got the kill.

Yup, but this way you win anywasy and flip the camp anyways. You just cry because you didn't get a kill, which doesn't mean much -if anything- and doesn't really change much of the outcome. What point are you trying to make? That one bag is super valuable? Nope, that's not it. So what is it? "I feel better when I kill someone as opposed to someone running away? Well, nobody cares.

 

8 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Just like how you would have if you won the fight cuz most people can't run from you.

Then what are you crying about? (oh wait, you've already said you're ignoring objectives, so you're crying because random people don't play the game by your self-made rules, is that it? So who's entitled here?)

 

8 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

I'm not choosing to ignore anything.

You said you do.

 

8 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

You are ignoring the fact wvw is also designed for players to fight and kill each other.

Remove ALL mobility/defensive/sustain skills and traits then, because that collides with the wvw design, I guess (well, more like your claim of what that design is).

 

8 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Fighting and killing is as much as an objective as flipping camps. Killing the enemy in PvP to take them out of the match is as much an objective as anything. YOU are ignoring the killing aspect of this game to better your it's ok if I run away you don't have to kill me argument.

I'm not ignoring anything, you're ignoring (but at this point, I'm slowly starting to believe you don't do that on purpose, it seems you just can't connect the dots here even if you're aaaaaaaalmost spelling it out for yourself 🙄) the fact that "taking out enemy" has value just because it makes it easier/possible to take on the ACTUAL objectives. If the enemy runs away, you still won and you still take the objective. I alreay wrote that. You prettymuch repeated it here. And yet.... still seems hard for you to acknowledge that.

 

 

[MrForz.1953]

This whole thing took a turn for the strangest.

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

17 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Two people in a fist fight but only one of them is able to run when kitten goes south. Who has the unfair advantage? Embarrassing indeed.

Well seeing how the problem is thief always running away, seems like thief doesnt have much of an advantage in most situations cuz if it didn't they wouldn't be running away and u guys wouldn't be crying about them running away all the time right?

Also most classes DO have ways to disengage but either blow them instead of saving them when needed or they refuse to build for it as a lot of players who play this game think their spacific build should do all and if it can't than nerf whatever it is on the other classes that ud have to build for, its actually funny.

Lastly classes are given things to compensate for their lowered mobility, learn to use ur classes strengths and watch out for situations that could exploit the builds weakness and ull improve at the game, just a tip.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[szeng.1267]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes, if someone didn't run, they'd probably die, both of those cases is losing. What I don't understand here is what are you even responding to right now? and how does this change anything from what I wrote above? 

For now it just looks like you just REAAAAALLY wanted to write "what do you not understand?" back to me, but wasn't sure what exactly to write. All the while dodging my actual question 🤔 How about you go back to that post and start responding to what I write?

 

Yup, but this way you win anywasy and flip the camp anyways. You just cry because you didn't get a kill, which doesn't mean much -if anything- and doesn't really change much of the outcome. What point are you trying to make? That one bag is super valuable? Nope, that's not it. So what is it? "I feel better when I kill someone as opposed to someone running away? Well, nobody cares.

 

Then what are you crying about? (oh wait, you've already said you're ignoring objectives, so you're crying because random people don't play the game by your self-made rules, is that it? So who's entitled here?)

 

You said you do.

 

Remove ALL mobility/defensive/sustain skills and traits then, because that collides with the wvw design, I guess (well, more like your claim of what that design is).

 

I'm not ignoring anything, you're ignoring (but at this point, I'm slowly starting to believe you don't do that on purpose, it seems you just can't connect the dots here even if you're aaaaaaaalmost spelling it out for yourself 🙄) the fact that "taking out enemy" has value just because it makes it easier/possible to take on the ACTUAL objectives. If the enemy runs away, you still won and you still take the objective. I alreay wrote that. You prettymuch repeated it here. And yet.... still seems hard for you to acknowledge that.

 

 

Ya connect the dots. Being able to run away to capture another objective/kill another player/scout for team is losing. You're down playing the getting kills to tell people it's ok for you not to die. If dying or getting kills is as useless as you say why don't you stay and die when you lose? I know cause that would be considered throwing the match.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'd start with a different question: can I make up my own numbers too or is this ability reserved just for you?

 

Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that you're dodging.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

4 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Ya connect the dots. Being able to run away to capture another objective/kill another player/scout for team is losing. You're down playing the getting kills to tell people it's ok for you not to die. If dying or getting kills is as useless as you say why don't you stay and die when you lose? I know cause that would be considered throwing the match.

Wow^^^^^^ lolz, time to retire thread pls.

[szeng.1267]

12 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Well seeing how the problem is thief always running away, seems like thief doesnt have much of an advantage in most situations cuz if it didn't they wouldn't be running away and u guys wouldn't be crying about them running away all the time right?

Also most classes DO have ways to disengage but either blow them instead of saving them when needed or they refuse to build for it as a lot of players who play this game think their spacific build should do all and if it can't than nerf whatever it is on the other classes that ud have to build for, its actually funny.

Lastly classes are given things to compensate for their lowered mobility, learn to use ur classes strengths and watch out for situations that could exploit the builds weakness and ull improve at the game, just a tip.

Thief don't always run away. They win fights sometimes too believe it or not. They are most capable of running away.

 

I'm not arguing with you over the other aspects of thieves. I'm simply saying choosing to run away at your own will is not losing. This applies to all classes. It just so happens thieves are the best at it.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

11 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Thief don't always run away. They win fights sometimes too believe it or not. They are most capable of running away.

 

I'm not arguing with you over the other aspects of thieves. I'm simply saying choosing to run away at your own will is not losing. This applies to all classes. It just so happens thieves are the best at it.

Ur right, and unless all classes are the exact same there will be differences between them all and it stands to reason why thief was designed to be the highest mobility given its a squishy class that uses active defenses to stay alive such as evades, teleports, blinds, stealth etc instead of having higher base hp/armor, barriers,blocks, invulnerability skills, eagis etc. Its a hit and run playstyle like all rogues and without the run part it doesnt really work. Were actually lucky over here at gw2 that the hit part of that playstyle is as low as it is and that the thief is annoying u buy running away instead of ganking u from near full hp to 0 than running like a lot of rogues do in other mmos lol.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107