perm stealth

[DeceiverX.8361]

@"biofrog.1568" said:So tell me how 25 seconds of stealth while downed is 'fair'?

So let me get this straight:

• You take him to about 500hp while burning and he uses SR. Without PoK, he goes down even earlier and deals less damage.
• You hear the downstate skills trigger at high volume and thus point-blank, and should know the range in which he can be from his stealth or TP skill.
• D/D Fire 1 is a PbAoE short-ranged AA that does not need a target, and instead you stand idle for 7 straight seconds doing absolutely nothing to force the issue at all nor sweep for the target. I get there's a lack of need to burn skills but come on, this is freebies.
• Downstate 2 has a 2s delay so you had a few casts of D/D Fire 1 to attempt to sweep for his cast location and further delay his res.
• You cast your other skills in the direction you were already facing when he went down which 9/10 times is not where they TP to BECAUSE of the ability for you to sweep with AA.
• You had ample time and the supply to throw a target painter or two to cordon off your prediction of where he might be if your efforts failed; you were not actively sieging or building siege anyways.
• You literally downed the guy despite him using stealth the whole fight with 75% of your health left without even using Water/Frost Aura (and never did after, either) and had ample opportunity to AoE SR way more than you did because you actively didn't switch to any elements for more AoE pressure to stifle his res. That fight hasnothing to do with 90% of thief's "stealth" gameplay but was entirely him sitting in SR and you doing nothing to punish. If you think SR is OP, just say it.
• You saw the "Miss" show up after his self res while you were casting skills and didn't dodge or turn much at all, knowing he was in melee and likely behind you because of the blind and otherwise lack of animations; Shadow Shot's projectile is visible from stealth even if he attempted the port from range, to which even on missed damage, he still teleports, so you know he wasn't coming in from range or would have already used a gap close on Steal to have gotten the miss, meaning turn and burn.
• You died with extra dodges unused earlier in the fight when he used his second engage to chase you down.
• You saw his shadowstep origin marker after getting engaged via the shadowstep into melee and walked BACK INTO IT. You literally gave him another free teleport engage and stunbreak into your exact position.
• You didn't retarget him immediately which cuts off any remaining info you could have gotten and makes him harder to hit. For the remainder of the fight. Press Tab.
• His stealth after the res was extremely low. You literally would have won this fight by hitting him once or twice with stray AoE's after the SR.
• You did nothing the entire video to punish UC and gave him full condition control via not using water or healing in the downed state period.

I'm sorry but you had a crazy amount of info and tons of options and all the tools to kill this guy and just... missed all of the cues to fight back or finish him off and didn't use your skills well to press the advantage. Instead, you stood around doing basically nothing and let him reset on you, and then when he failed his burst, you just gave him another chance to do it without any kind of real negation strategies or attempts to trade back.

Even when watching the video the first time, I instinctively was internally thinking "Dodge now" for half the video every single time he re-engaged. Not one wrong prediction. Almost 90% of thieves play the same way because it's really the same tactic to maximize their output damage and dueling safety.

Half of those are bare minimum level skills while roaming or playing into anything with stealth, including mesmer, ranger, and even engineer. You have to think a level deeper when dealing with stealthed opponents and really understand your kit and thiers, but there are ample opportunities to snuff them out. Mesmer, Ranger and Engi are much harder to deal with given their slightly-to-significantly higher durability, and your lack of use of all your kit options really suggests to me that you will absolutely struggle with those as well if they're played remotely competently.

D/P and sustained stealth is a problem for a lot of reasons, but your video is a horrible example because you had the victory almost entirely clinched, and did nothing with the astronomical lead and almost guaranteed stomp you generated. You have to understand thief to beat it, but once you do, in situations like those, the downed state is a free kill.

If you want to have a serious conversation about thief and stealth... you need to get better at understanding the class first, because that knowledge is clearly lacking.

[Casualconnoisseur.5936]

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@"Casualconnoisseur.5936" said:Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

Is this literally a post suggesting that thieves should be nerfed if only because veteran thieves make new players feel poopy?

You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.

And no, before you say it, I don’t have problems with rangers. The good ones are fun to fight, the majority of rangers are bad because the class attracts weirdos who want a pet friend in a video game. (I’m joking mostly, you rangers keep doing do you).

No, i was suggesting that Gw2 vets have sunken so much time into this game, that they often aren't objective about bad mechanics which hurt the game.Just like you instantly get defensive cause you think i just want to "nerf" your dear thief.Even tho i think it should be pretty clear for anynone that nobody really advocates to just tune down/remove stealth without changing talents and skills.There is a big difference between "nerfing" something (like turning down the numbers) and "reworking" something cause it's just not fun and limits the potential of the game.

[godz raiden.2631]

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

Is this literally a post suggesting that thieves should be nerfed if only because veteran thieves make new players feel poopy?

You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.

And no, before you say it, I don’t have problems with rangers. The good ones are fun to fight, the majority of rangers are bad because the class attracts weirdos who want a pet friend in a video game. (I’m joking mostly, you rangers keep doing do you).

No, i was suggesting that Gw2 vets have sunken so much time into this game, that they often aren't objective about bad mechanics which hurt the game.Just like you instantly get defensive cause you think i just want to "nerf" your dear thief.Even tho i think it should be pretty clear for anynone that nobody really advocates to just tune down/remove stealth without changing talents and skills.There is a big difference between "nerfing" something (like turning down the numbers) and "reworking" something cause it's just not fun and limits the potential of the game.

There are literally people in this thread that have advocated for nerfing/removing stealth as it is without compensating thieves. People using the terminology “bring it in line” with other mechanics.

You’re probably right about a lot of us veteran thieves not wanting drastic changes to our class because of our time invested. For those of us playing since release that’s, what? 9 years off and on probably? I won’t apologize for not wanting a class I main to be changed after almost a decade to force me to relearn the class with new mechanics, or lack thereof.

Thief is already one of the most nerfed classes historically. It’s never enough for thief haters. Of course thief mains like myself get defensive. We’re sick of seeing the same nerf/rework requests on a regular basis, especially since those requests generally come from players who have very few hours on thief in WvW and don’t even understand how the class works. If you even read half of the arguments from players asking for thief nerfs you would realize they’re clueless as to what they’re talking about.

[Aeolus.3615]

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

Is this literally a post suggesting that thieves should be nerfed if only because veteran thieves make new players feel poopy?

You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.

And no, before you say it, I don’t have problems with rangers. The good ones are fun to fight, the majority of rangers are bad because the class attracts weirdos who want a pet friend in a video game. (I’m joking mostly, you rangers keep doing do you).

No, i was suggesting that Gw2 vets have sunken so much time into this game, that they often aren't objective about bad mechanics which hurt the game.Just like you instantly get defensive cause you think i just want to "nerf" your dear thief.Even tho i think it should be pretty clear for anynone that nobody really advocates to just tune down/remove stealth without changing talents and skills.There is a big difference between "nerfing" something (like turning down the numbers) and "reworking" something cause it's just not fun and limits the potential of the game.

There are literally people in this thread that have advocated for nerfing/removing stealth as it is without compensating thieves. People using the terminology “bring it in line” with other mechanics.

You’re probably right about a lot of us veteran thieves not wanting drastic changes to our class because of our time invested. For those of us playing since release that’s, what? 9 years off and on probably? I won’t apologize for not wanting a class I main to be changed after almost a decade to force me to relearn the class with new mechanics, or lack thereof.

Thief is already one of the most nerfed classes historically. It’s never enough for thief haters. Of course thief mains like myself get defensive. We’re sick of seeing the same nerf/rework requests on a regular basis, especially since those requests generally come from players who have very few hours on thief in WvW and don’t even understand how the class works. If you even read half of the arguments from players asking for thief nerfs you would realize they’re clueless as to what they’re talking about.

It does not make any sense remove stealth >_>

I assume the "put it in line" just means make stealth not stackable from other sources and make it only thgefs and mesmers have it for group

The issue with it stealth is ANET want e to give stealth to all classes....

[godz raiden.2631]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

Is this literally a post suggesting that thieves should be nerfed if only because veteran thieves make new players feel poopy?

You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.

And no, before you say it, I don’t have problems with rangers. The good ones are fun to fight, the majority of rangers are bad because the class attracts weirdos who want a pet friend in a video game. (I’m joking mostly, you rangers keep doing do you).

No, i was suggesting that Gw2 vets have sunken so much time into this game, that they often aren't objective about bad mechanics which hurt the game.Just like you instantly get defensive cause you think i just want to "nerf" your dear thief.Even tho i think it should be pretty clear for anynone that nobody really advocates to just tune down/remove stealth without changing talents and skills.There is a big difference between "nerfing" something (like turning down the numbers) and "reworking" something cause it's just not fun and limits the potential of the game.

There are literally people in this thread that have advocated for nerfing/removing stealth as it is without compensating thieves. People using the terminology “bring it in line” with other mechanics.

You’re probably right about a lot of us veteran thieves not wanting drastic changes to our class because of our time invested. For those of us playing since release that’s, what? 9 years off and on probably? I won’t apologize for not wanting a class I main to be changed after almost a decade to force me to relearn the class with new mechanics, or lack thereof.

Thief is already one of the most nerfed classes historically. It’s never enough for thief haters. Of course thief mains like myself get defensive. We’re sick of seeing the same nerf/rework requests on a regular basis, especially since those requests generally come from players who have very few hours on thief in WvW and don’t even understand how the class works. If you even read half of the arguments from players asking for thief nerfs you would realize they’re clueless as to what they’re talking about.

It does not make any sense remove stealth >_>

I assume the "put it in line" just means make stealth not stackable from other sources and make it only thgefs and mesmers have it for group

The issue with it stealth is ANET want e to give stealth to all classes....

I agree it doesn’t make sense to remove stealth. However, there have been plenty of posts historically, some in this thread, that have advocated for removing stealth in its current form.

If stealth were to be reworked in a manner where it’s not stackable they would need to rework revealed or remove it as well. If a thief can’t stack stealth and has to contend with the prospect of being revealed then the class will have too many hurdles to overcome in combat compared to other classes. I wouldn’t consider that being brought in line with other classes.

I also agree some classes with access to stealth really shouldn’t have it, or at least not as much access. Both for thematic reasons related to classes themselves, as well as for balance reasons. In the case of thief in particular, it makes sense that stealth is a strong mechanic for the class to use. For a DH running trapper runes, it seems strange and offers too much utility on top of their already existing utility (just as an example, I’m not saying DH should be nerfed or reworked in anyway here btw, just stating a fact).

[Aeolus.3615]

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

Is this literally a post suggesting that thieves should be nerfed if only because veteran thieves make new players feel poopy?

You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.

And no, before you say it, I don’t have problems with rangers. The good ones are fun to fight, the majority of rangers are bad because the class attracts weirdos who want a pet friend in a video game. (I’m joking mostly, you rangers keep doing do you).

No, i was suggesting that Gw2 vets have sunken so much time into this game, that they often aren't objective about bad mechanics which hurt the game.Just like you instantly get defensive cause you think i just want to "nerf" your dear thief.Even tho i think it should be pretty clear for anynone that nobody really advocates to just tune down/remove stealth without changing talents and skills.There is a big difference between "nerfing" something (like turning down the numbers) and "reworking" something cause it's just not fun and limits the potential of the game.

There are literally people in this thread that have advocated for nerfing/removing stealth as it is without compensating thieves. People using the terminology “bring it in line” with other mechanics.

You’re probably right about a lot of us veteran thieves not wanting drastic changes to our class because of our time invested. For those of us playing since release that’s, what? 9 years off and on probably? I won’t apologize for not wanting a class I main to be changed after almost a decade to force me to relearn the class with new mechanics, or lack thereof.

Thief is already one of the most nerfed classes historically. It’s never enough for thief haters. Of course thief mains like myself get defensive. We’re sick of seeing the same nerf/rework requests on a regular basis, especially since those requests generally come from players who have very few hours on thief in WvW and don’t even understand how the class works. If you even read half of the arguments from players asking for thief nerfs you would realize they’re clueless as to what they’re talking about.

It does not make any sense remove stealth >_>

I assume the "put it in line" just means make stealth not stackable from other sources and make it only thgefs and mesmers have it for group

The issue with it stealth is ANET want e to give stealth to all classes....

I agree it doesn’t make sense to remove stealth. However, there have been plenty of posts historically, some in this thread, that have advocated for removing stealth in its current form.

If stealth were to be reworked in a manner where it’s not stackable they would need to rework revealed or remove it as well. If a thief can’t stack stealth and has to contend with the prospect of being revealed then the class will have too many hurdles to overcome in combat compared to other classes. I wouldn’t consider that being brought in line with other classes.

I also agree some classes with access to stealth really shouldn’t have it, or at least not as much access. Both for thematic reasons related to classes themselves, as well as for balance reasons. In the case of thief in particular, it makes sense that stealth is a strong mechanic for the class to use. For a DH running trapper runes, it seems strange and offers too much utility on top of their already existing utility (just as an example, I’m not saying DH should be nerfed or reworked in anyway here btw, just stating a fact).

The mechanics to "Remove reveal" on Deadeye can be exploited due how stealth works poorly in this game so...

• Remove stealth stacking from other sources
• I would not remove reveal entirely but would remove the ability to remove reveal
• I would make the thief having the reveal only when revealead by enemey skill (maybe smoke field could reduce the reveal time(as in would expire faster) :P before caster go to stleath???)
• Reveal strengh in duration would differ in durations deppending the class/skill doing it.
• Remove stealth gyro from scrapper and would replace a gyro that aplies 2 sec of reveal every 10-12 sec (Sonar Gyro that could aoe target 1200 range with 2-3 charges)
• Thief stealth would have 3 traits competing
  • last longer and cost less,
  • no increase on duration nor cost reduction but thief would move faster 33% out of combat and 20% in combat.
  • mobility skills cost less and do less damage while stealthed-Thief stealth skils on combat cost a litle bit more and m8 cost stamina deppending the skill effect/result (thief that wants to go sleathed or teleport/blink would drain bit of stamina to get the cc off).
• i would put some more heavy initiave skills and utilities some with a CD but thief would gain them later by compensations (would try a combat mehcanics to punish bots and macroers but would make thief more deadly those those who have brains and eyes).
• I would give thief a F1 skill to taunt target to thief positiong while in combat and stealth :bleep_bloop: but would end thief stealth 2-3 seconds later

(eddited)

[godz raiden.2631]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

Is this literally a post suggesting that thieves should be nerfed if only because veteran thieves make new players feel poopy?

You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.

And no, before you say it, I don’t have problems with rangers. The good ones are fun to fight, the majority of rangers are bad because the class attracts weirdos who want a pet friend in a video game. (I’m joking mostly, you rangers keep doing do you).

No, i was suggesting that Gw2 vets have sunken so much time into this game, that they often aren't objective about bad mechanics which hurt the game.Just like you instantly get defensive cause you think i just want to "nerf" your dear thief.Even tho i think it should be pretty clear for anynone that nobody really advocates to just tune down/remove stealth without changing talents and skills.There is a big difference between "nerfing" something (like turning down the numbers) and "reworking" something cause it's just not fun and limits the potential of the game.

There are literally people in this thread that have advocated for nerfing/removing stealth as it is without compensating thieves. People using the terminology “bring it in line” with other mechanics.

You’re probably right about a lot of us veteran thieves not wanting drastic changes to our class because of our time invested. For those of us playing since release that’s, what? 9 years off and on probably? I won’t apologize for not wanting a class I main to be changed after almost a decade to force me to relearn the class with new mechanics, or lack thereof.

Thief is already one of the most nerfed classes historically. It’s never enough for thief haters. Of course thief mains like myself get defensive. We’re sick of seeing the same nerf/rework requests on a regular basis, especially since those requests generally come from players who have very few hours on thief in WvW and don’t even understand how the class works. If you even read half of the arguments from players asking for thief nerfs you would realize they’re clueless as to what they’re talking about.

It does not make any sense remove stealth >_>

I assume the "put it in line" just means make stealth not stackable from other sources and make it only thgefs and mesmers have it for group

The issue with it stealth is ANET want e to give stealth to all classes....

I agree it doesn’t make sense to remove stealth. However, there have been plenty of posts historically, some in this thread, that have advocated for removing stealth in its current form.

If stealth were to be reworked in a manner where it’s not stackable they would need to rework revealed or remove it as well. If a thief can’t stack stealth and has to contend with the prospect of being revealed then the class will have too many hurdles to overcome in combat compared to other classes. I wouldn’t consider that being brought in line with other classes.

I also agree some classes with access to stealth really shouldn’t have it, or at least not as much access. Both for thematic reasons related to classes themselves, as well as for balance reasons. In the case of thief in particular, it makes sense that stealth is a strong mechanic for the class to use. For a DH running trapper runes, it seems strange and offers too much utility on top of their already existing utility (just as an example, I’m not saying DH should be nerfed or reworked in anyway here btw, just stating a fact).

The mechanics to "Remove reveal" on Deadeye can be exploited due how stealth works poorly in this game so...

-I would not remove reveal entirely but would remove the ability to remove reveal-I would make the thief having the reveal only when revealead by enemey skill (maybe smoke field could reduce the reveal time(as in would expire faster) :P before caster go to stleath???)-Reveal strengh in duration would differ in durations deppending the class/skill doing it.-Remove stealth gyro from scrapper and would replace a gyro that aplies 2 sec of reveal every 10-12 sec (Sonar Gyro that could aoe target 1200 range with 2-3 charges)-Thief stealth out of combat would have 2 traits competing

• last longer and cost less,
• no increase on duration nor cost reduction but thief would move faster 33% out of combat and 20% in combat.-hief stealth skils on combat cost a litle bit more and m8 cost stamina deppending the skill effect/result (thief that wants to go sleathed or teleport/blink would drain bit of stamina to get the cc off)._ i would put some more heavy initiave skills and utilities some with a CD but thief would gain them later by compensations (would try a combat mehcanics to punish bots and macroers but would make thief more deadly those those who have brains and eyes).

I guess I'll address your points one-by-one:

1. You would remove the ability to remove reveal? Ok so you'd remove a single elite skill? You need to replace it with something, what would that be?
2. So you'd remove the possibility for thieves to be revealed by tower buffs and sentries? I agree with this, I think it's silly that a thief is an automatic disadvantage fighting around enemy sentries and towers as is. If I'm willing to fight an enemy near these points, they already often have the advantage of having a place to try to run to and hide, as well as guards nearby to help in many cases. Not sure we need to add reveal reduction time as a buff to smoke fields, then players will just complain about smokefields being stronger than they already are for thief. We don't need more reasons for people to want to nerf thief.
3. Revealed duration depending on class/skill is literally already the case. For example the reveal caused by necro's tainted shackles is 5 seconds I believe, while Ranger's sic 'em is 6 seconds. Those are just two examples. Off the top of my head DH's lights judgment also reveals, and I believe it's only for 1 second if I'm not mistaken.
4. Changing stealth gyro to a constantly reapplying AoE reveal seems like it could be broken in some cases. Would make engi vs thief match ups seem rather Rock-Paper-Scissors.
5. I'm not sure why you're talking about out of combat stealth for thieves. Why would I want an out of combat trait for my stealth? That's useless to me. Why would I want traits that I lose the moment I enter combat? Those would be worst in slot traits, easily (unless they're completely busted somehow).
6. I think a lot of players would take issue with stealth lasting longer as a baseline for thieves, and they especially wouldn't want our access to stealth costing less lol.
7. I don't need to move faster out of combat while in stealth. I have a warclaw. I also don't need to move faster while in combat while stealthed, I have access to gap closers and one of the strongest benefits of stealth in general is the ability to reposition without the enemy seeing where you're going. Don't need to move faster to do that. Both this trait, and your other one would be worthless in every single way.
8. I'm confused what you mean by thief stealth skills costing more? Stealth attacks don't cost initiative, the tax on stealth attacks is the prep work (spending initiative to prep malicious stealth attacks for DE, for example. Another example is injuring an enemy enough, spending the initiative to enter stealth, and landing a backstab). I'm not sure what you mean by stealth skills and blinks costing stamina? I'm assuming you mean endurance? If so, lol no. That's ridiculous to expect thieves to spend initiative and endurance to set up stealth attacks. That would kill the class.
9. Initiative skills hitting harder but also having a CD outside of initiative costs? You've never played thief have you? Initiative is a global resource across both weapon sets and all weapon skills outside of your auto attack. This would also kill thief. You shouldn't be trying to make balance suggestions based around the existence of macro users or bots, that's ridiculous.

All in all, these are all pretty... terrible.

Edit to address the additional bullet point you added:

10. I'm not sure taunting an enemy towards yourself as a thief in stealth is desirable. When I'm in stealth I generally don't want the enemy to have any indication of where I am if possible. It's easy enough to watch channeled skills track me or hit me with AoEs. The last thing a thief needs to do is expose their location all on their own with their F1 skill. Seems silly to be honest.

[Aeolus.3615]

@4 i dont think so but 10 seconds is plenty of time tho, but ofc i would trus tmore on comnents of players that are more used to pvp with thief, still could be only with the ammo usage.

@5 totally forgot the warclaw lol....

@6 and 7 what do u think that would make thief more mobility combat rather than try to burst out before stealth and render on enemy screen? (stealth has a netcode issue, wich is the why people want stealth removed from game, what do u think would improve gameplay with stealth and mobility?)

@8 yes endurance, thief would use endurance to remove CC when enters stealth, maybe some trait for it or this would be added to some skill more like a panic buton?~By blink i assume thief will have those skills. like medi guard has (note the scheme of the classes and Anet if giving evetything for every class.The e meld skills ofc woud have to be something else besides the stealth.

@9 No im am not a dedicate thief player and far from that, played core thief only with a toon to play thje game and tried later deadeye to abuse the slowpoke render out of stealth issue when servers get very their hamsters on break, it is more like revenge on players that use certain builds and gameplay..

[kash.9213]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

Is this literally a post suggesting that thieves should be nerfed if only because veteran thieves make new players feel poopy?

You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.

And no, before you say it, I don’t have problems with rangers. The good ones are fun to fight, the majority of rangers are bad because the class attracts weirdos who want a pet friend in a video game. (I’m joking mostly, you rangers keep doing do you).

No, i was suggesting that Gw2 vets have sunken so much time into this game, that they often aren't objective about bad mechanics which hurt the game.Just like you instantly get defensive cause you think i just want to "nerf" your dear thief.Even tho i think it should be pretty clear for anynone that nobody really advocates to just tune down/remove stealth without changing talents and skills.There is a big difference between "nerfing" something (like turning down the numbers) and "reworking" something cause it's just not fun and limits the potential of the game.

There are literally people in this thread that have advocated for nerfing/removing stealth as it is without compensating thieves. People using the terminology “bring it in line” with other mechanics.

You’re probably right about a lot of us veteran thieves not wanting drastic changes to our class because of our time invested. For those of us playing since release that’s, what? 9 years off and on probably? I won’t apologize for not wanting a class I main to be changed after almost a decade to force me to relearn the class with new mechanics, or lack thereof.

Thief is already one of the most nerfed classes historically. It’s never enough for thief haters. Of course thief mains like myself get defensive. We’re sick of seeing the same nerf/rework requests on a regular basis, especially since those requests generally come from players who have very few hours on thief in WvW and don’t even understand how the class works. If you even read half of the arguments from players asking for thief nerfs you would realize they’re clueless as to what they’re talking about.

It does not make any sense remove stealth >_>

I assume the "put it in line" just means make stealth not stackable from other sources and make it only thgefs and mesmers have it for group

The issue with it stealth is ANET want e to give stealth to all classes....

I agree it doesn’t make sense to remove stealth. However, there have been plenty of posts historically, some in this thread, that have advocated for removing stealth in its current form.

If stealth were to be reworked in a manner where it’s not stackable they would need to rework revealed or remove it as well. If a thief can’t stack stealth and has to contend with the prospect of being revealed then the class will have too many hurdles to overcome in combat compared to other classes. I wouldn’t consider that being brought in line with other classes.

I also agree some classes with access to stealth really shouldn’t have it, or at least not as much access. Both for thematic reasons related to classes themselves, as well as for balance reasons. In the case of thief in particular, it makes sense that stealth is a strong mechanic for the class to use. For a DH running trapper runes, it seems strange and offers too much utility on top of their already existing utility (just as an example, I’m not saying DH should be nerfed or reworked in anyway here btw, just stating a fact).

The mechanics to "Remove reveal" on Deadeye can be exploited due how stealth works poorly in this game so...

• Remove stealth stacking from other sources
• I would not remove reveal entirely but would remove the ability to remove reveal
• I would make the thief having the reveal only when revealead by enemey skill (maybe smoke field could reduce the reveal time(as in would expire faster) :P before caster go to stleath???)
• Reveal strengh in duration would differ in durations deppending the class/skill doing it.
• Remove stealth gyro from scrapper and would replace a gyro that aplies 2 sec of reveal every 10-12 sec (Sonar Gyro that could aoe target 1200 range with 2-3 charges)
• Thief stealth would have 3 traits competing
  • last longer and cost less,
  • no increase on duration nor cost reduction but thief would move faster 33% out of combat and 20% in combat.
  • mobility skills cost less and do less damage while stealthed-Thief stealth skils on combat cost a litle bit more and m8 cost stamina deppending the skill effect/result (thief that wants to go sleathed or teleport/blink would drain bit of stamina to get the cc off).
• i would put some more heavy initiave skills and utilities some with a CD but thief would gain them later by compensations (would try a combat mehcanics to punish bots and macroers but would make thief more deadly those those who have brains and eyes).
• I would give thief a F1 skill to taunt target to thief positiong while in combat and stealth :bleep_bloop: but would end thief stealth 2-3 seconds later

(eddited)

• Some of that sounds alright, those trait strength choices are sort of similar in tone choice to Daredevil dodge traits and might be interesting to build around.
• Stealth Attack is the payoff to the work and shouldn't be messed with even if some mechanics around them could be adjusted or changed. Put the pressure on the stealth, messing with skills and skill cost or totally tanking some traits has already caused problems when addressing issues like perceived perma stealth, mobility like Infiltrators Arrow, and some Acro is still gutted.
• I wont speak for everyone else but I have to think most other thieves still play thief, and the game, largely due to Initiative along with the animations. We don't need less Initiative for more cooldowns and we really don't need any more Initiative budget hits.
• Scorpion Wire is kind of a taunt. If they have reflect it can even pull you to them which is fun unless that spot is getting melted. A taunt sounds wild though, I'd probably be hesitant to add something like that but probably equally as interested to see it play out.

[godz raiden.2631]

@Aeolus.3615 said:@4 i dont think so but 10 seconds is plenty of time tho, but ofc i would trus tmore on comnents of players that are more used to pvp with thief, still could be only with the ammo usage.

@5 totally forgot the warclaw lol....

@6 and 7 what do u think that would make thief more mobility combat rather than try to burst out before stealth and render on enemy screen? (stealth has a netcode issue, wich is the why people want stealth removed from game, what do u think would improve gameplay with stealth and mobility?)

@8 yes endurance, thief would use endurance to remove CC when enters stealth, maybe some trait for it or this would be added to some skill more like a panic buton?~By blink i assume thief will have those skills. like medi guard has (note the scheme of the classes and Anet if giving evetything for every class.The e meld skills ofc woud have to be something else besides the stealth.

@9 No im am not a dedicate thief player and far from that, played core thief only with a toon to play thje game and tried later deadeye to abuse the slowpoke render out of stealth issue when servers get very their hamsters on break, it is more like revenge on players that use certain builds and gameplay..

@6 and 7: I haven't been arguing that thief should be more mobility combat, not sure why you're trying to place the burden on me to come up with a change for that. There's some evidence that Anet doesn't want thief being too mobile anyway, hence the nerfs to shortbow. S/d builds allow for some good mobility/evade based combat, but it's definitely not the strongest current build for thief.

@8: Thief can already trait in the Daredevil spec to remove CC condis by dodging. I'm pretty sure if you gave thieves a trait where they can dodge, remove CC (I'm not sure if you're suggesting this be a stun break or not as well?) AND enter stealth, then people would consider that an insane buff and would request nerfs immediately. I don't think thieves need this buff. We don't need a panic button, if we mess up and get caught, we deserve it. It's the burden of playing the class.Your statements about mobility and using guardian medi skills as an example has me a little confused here. Thief already has access to shadowsteps, not sure what you're suggesting being added or removed, or reworked here.

@9: You can bring up "netcode issues" and render problems in regards to stealth, but any decent thief player can switch to another class and perform against thieves, because we understand what we're fighting and how to do it. The best way to learn to fight a class is to play that class. If you spend 9000 hours playing one class exclusively, you'll have no understanding of how other classes build, their cooldowns, strongest utilities, strongest weapon skills, etc. I personally don't think any player who has never touched thief for a significant amount of time should be making suggestions to alter the class. Does thief need balance changes? Yeah. Every class does. Does it need to be nerfed into the ground to cater to bad players? Absolutely not.

[MaLong.2079]

Quote

@"biofrog.1568" said:So tell me how 25 seconds of stealth while downed is 'fair'?

Deny the winner of a fight their reward and you will have an unhappy player. That is why actions like wp or mounting are not allowed during a fight. What is the point of fighting something that no matter the outcome will get you no rewards? And that applies to stealth as well as many other skills that currently allow players to abandon a fight with ease.

[Fueki.4753]

55 minutes ago, MaLong.2079 said:

Deny the winner of a fight their reward and you will have an unhappy player. That is why actions like wp or mounting are not allowed during a fight. What is the point of fighting something that no matter the outcome will get you no rewards? And that applies to stealth as well as many other skills that currently allow players to abandon a fight with ease.

Actually, not being able to WP in combat was a change that targetted specific PvE behaviours and tactics.

In CoF, people used to suicide run a specific event, to draw the enemies' attention and prevent the necessary NPC from dying.

This change just happened to affect WvW, but it had nothing to do with denying rewards in WvW.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[MaLong.2079]

16 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Actually, not being able to WP in combat was a change that targetted specific PvE behaviours and tactics.

In CoF, people used to suicide run a specific event, to draw the enemies' attention and prevent the necessary NPC from dying.

This change just happened to affect WvW, but it had nothing to do with denying rewards in WvW.

In that case lets demand they allow players to WP during combat in wvw only. I bet people will love it! 

[cobbah.3102]

I see no mention of stealth or perma stealth in pre cursor release of balance upkittente for the 11th May , go figure proves who plays thieves.

[kash.9213]

4 minutes ago, cobbah.3102 said:

I see no mention of stealth or perma stealth in pre cursor release of balance upkittente for the 11th May , go figure proves who plays thieves.

Definitely not the devs, the thief changes are dumb and almost seem like the dev who worked on the thief did so in retaliation or something. 

 

There was no mention of perma stealth because while annoying, isn't a balance problem. 

[cobbah.3102]

Hmm but they hit my retal where is the fairness

[Telgum.6071]

On 4/15/2021 at 3:48 PM, biofrog.1568 said:

So tell me how 25 seconds of stealth while downed is 'fair'?

 

I can't believe my eyes. An elementalist saying that X mechanic is not fair. Too bad you didn't enable the log to show us the massive amount of things that trash class does by smashing the keyboard.

 

Let me explain: those "25 seconds while downed" come from shadow refuge, if a thief enters there and you don't see him exiting, that means he is inside, with virtually no room to dodge and no ability to attack you if he wants to remain on stealth.

 

So, next time you want to complain perhaps you should learn that you can see on your minimap where the stealthed downed is.

[godz raiden.2631]

18 hours ago, MaLong.2079 said:

Deny the winner of a fight their reward and you will have an unhappy player. That is why actions like wp or mounting are not allowed during a fight. What is the point of fighting something that no matter the outcome will get you no rewards? And that applies to stealth as well as many other skills that currently allow players to abandon a fight with ease.

 

With your line of reasoning, I should be pretty upset when I'm downing people in a 1v3 and they just get to rely on being revived constantly to deny me my rightful rewards. 

[apharma.3741]

It's fun reading some of these gymnastics from everyone. Answer simple questions.

 

Should any class be able to sit in stealth for prolonged periods (>6s) of time? No.

 

Is having an enemy hopping in and out of stealth every couple of seconds fun to fight for most people? No

 

Does this really turn people off from the game? Yes.

 

Doesn't matter if it's a ranger, thief, mesmer or guard, non of this is good for the game and stealth needs to change.

[AikijinX.6258]

People fear what they cannot see

Edited May 1, 2021 by AikijinX.6258

[MaLong.2079]

9 hours ago, godz raiden.2631 said:

 

With your line of reasoning, I should be pretty upset when I'm downing people in a 1v3 and they just get to rely on being revived constantly to deny me my rightful rewards. 

Downed state is a different story and I agree it needs changes or even be removed from wvw. I remember when they removed downed state of a week or so to test performance or something. It was a great week in wvw.

 

In a 1 vs many fight you win when you beat them all, not some. Now lets say you were fighting not 3 but 4 and you actually downed them all.  But one of them vapors away to an unreachable area, the other one has a field surgeon for a pet, another one stealths, and the last one resurrects spontaneously and downs you because you had 1 hp left after actually winning a 1 vs 4.

 

That must feel great.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 4/6/2021 at 8:27 AM, TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

I would be happy with just using an attack reveals them. Pretty annoying to have a thief, engi, ranger etc open with a burst from stealth and me to predict when it's coming and dodge it or counter it with a block.....Only to have them remain in stealth? This is one of my only complaints about stealth, sorry, this should not be a try burst, fail, never be revealed, reset, wait for CD and try again.

It's so ridiculous to see a full rapid fire etc coming out of thin air 1,500+ range away hitting shelter "block, block, block, block" and just standing there waiting for something to actually target and fight. If they use a skill that misses, blinded, blocked etc etc it should still reveal the player.

The only realistic view point here^^^^^, the rest of the suggestions are more of a gutting of the classes main mechanic than a realistic shave to stealth which won't happen this late in the game.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 5/1/2021 at 5:10 PM, apharma.3741 said:

It's fun reading some of these gymnastics from everyone. Answer simple questions.

 

Should any class be able to sit in stealth for prolonged periods (>6s) of time? No.

 

Is having an enemy hopping in and out of stealth every couple of seconds fun to fight for most people? No

 

Does this really turn people off from the game? Yes.

 

Doesn't matter if it's a ranger, thief, mesmer or guard, non of this is good for the game and stealth needs to change.

Naw id doesn't turn a player off from the game, thats ridiculous statement. If a player was gonna leave a game cuz of stealth they'd be leaving for any other of the games numerous issues including the many broken things on many many classes. By gutting thief and deleting it as u all want to happen by ur versions of "slight" nerfs the game would lose far more net players from all the thief players leaving the game which is more realistic than the player leaving cuz thief current stealthing.

I agree thief could have a re-stackable stealth cap at 6 sec and should be revealed on misses but they'd also need a damage and sustain buff for compensation, but all guys don't ever want their compensated as well lol.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[jemdarr.2158]

On 5/1/2021 at 2:18 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

 

I can't believe my eyes. An elementalist saying that X mechanic is not fair. Too bad you didn't enable the log to show us the massive amount of things that trash class does by smashing the keyboard.

That is the worst and most uneducated thing I ever read on this forum. If thief would take half the effort to master as elementalist does we wouldn't have a discussion about that on the forums.
Elementalist is, by far, the class with the hardest learning curve, while DE can be played successfully with 1 hand. 

[Caedmon.6798]

On 5/2/2021 at 12:23 AM, AikijinX.6258 said:

People fear what they cannot see

They fear players knowing their class. They get picked out of their boonball blob and resort to insulting an entire spec and everyone that plays it. I love reading this thread time by time to get a good laugh.😆