perm stealth

[kash.9213]

9 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Its hilarious how thieves justify stealth as perfectly fine and that there are counterplay to it. Yes there is indeed a lot of ways to counter stealth but when you pair with insane mobility that only thieves has access to the counterplay is invalid. Stealth paired with mobility that can disengage in seconds is the problem. I can't wait for a thief main to come tell me that "we aren't mobile compared to X Y and Z class or with mounts mobility means nothing." 

 

 

Stealth is perfectly fine. Some skills and traits are not. They have to have mobility, that's going to be their role in pretty much every game mode. If you want people to stand still for you and let you kill them then start a fight club with a few servers and pick a corner of a map. 

[szeng.1267]

 

 

18 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Watching this thread, feel good when you kill someone's character to the point where you chase the kill for the sake of it and when you fail, you come to cry on the forum. Based on that it's probably safe to assume that someone else can feel bad when their character dies, so they run if they're about to die. Taking your hurt little feelings and reversing them is absolute rocket science, I know.

And why do you constantly assume I'm the one running here? 🙄

 

As far as I know wvw isn't a 1v1 mode and I don't personally answer for every magical circle of the map. Super hard concept again, I know.

 

Its all about feelings huh. So only you deserve to feel good and never have to worry about feeling bad since your character has best disengage in game? Everyone else is suppose to buy into your if I win I get to kill you but if you win you only get to watch me run away entitled BS? You run for the same season everyone else runs. Being alive allows you to continue contributing. Dying requires you to run back taking up your time. I know you know the benefits of staying alive and it's not just about your feelings that's why you play the class with the best disengage in game. Stop pretending like you don't.

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

 

🤔

 

You're not fighting over the points, you're fighting for the kill and when the kill runs away you cry because your feelings are hurt.

 

 

Then I guess you should be running in zergs instead of crying about one player running away? You're not maximizing kitten by 1v1ing and if that one bag matter then you're clearly doing it wrong 🙄

 

I play to the games objectives to which is fun for me. Killing players and naturalizing them is how I choose to contribute to my objectives when roaming. If I feel like it I might take a camp. But who the hell goes and flip 20 camps and say wow I just won 20 times? You're roaming wvw on a thief which isn't the most effective class at flipping camps either so quit pretending like you care so much about your so called camp flipping objective. You're playing thief because its the best at what it can do. +1, picking off back line, easy disengaging if things go south. This whole thing is you trying to groom others into thinking its okay for them to watch you get away.

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Its all about feelings huh

Judging by your posts, clearly.

 

And you're still randomly spamming that "you you you" making your silly assumptions.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[szeng.1267]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

This one's genuinely hilarious.

 

 

Me preventing my enemy from getting reward is hilarious cause you choose to ignore the fact that if they got away they can capture something else or kill someone else from my team to gain rewards for their team and prevent the person they killed from contributing to my team.

26 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Judging by your posts, clearly.

 

And you're still randomly spamming that "you you you" making your silly assumptions.

Of course you're going to spin it like its about my feelings when I'm calling you out on your grooming BS.

 

So I'm not suppose to address you with "you"?  What would you to like me to call you then? "This groomer"?

 

Making my silly assumptions? Oh forgive me if you really have no idea of the benefits of surviving and actually think that you escaping a situation in which you would have otherwise died its actually helping the other guy win. It must annoy you so much having to waste all that time downing your enemies and stomping them before you can actually start flipping your camp. Please buff everyone else's disengage so when we are all losing a fight to this guy, we can help him flip his camp and win faster by running away.

Edited June 5, 2021 by szeng.1267

[Sobx.1758]

26 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Me preventing my enemy from getting reward is hilarious cause you choose to ignore the fact that if they got away they can capture something else or kill someone else from my team to gain rewards for their team and prevent the person they killed from contributing to my team.

lmao, what are you even talking about right now.

 

26 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Of course you're going to spin it like its about my feelings when I'm calling you out on your grooming BS.

Again, what? I'm not "spinning" anything, it's pretty clear from the start of you posting here that you're just crying about feeling bad when you don't kill the enemy while you said you don't even care about the objectives.

 

26 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

So I'm not suppose to address you with "you"?  What would you to like me to call you then? "This groomer"?

You're not supposed to addres me with "you" when you're making up your silly stories on the go.

And it seems you have some serious issues with the grooming, you sure you're ok over there? Or do you just like the word so much that you stupidly overuse it in every single post and it somehow brings you satisfaction?

 

26 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Making my silly assumptions?

Yup, that's exactly what I said because that's exactly what you do.

 

[szeng.1267]

57 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

lmao, what are you even talking about right now.

 

You said you find it hilarious that one of my objective is preventing my enemy from getting points for their team. This is because I also said that running away and letting the enemy take the camp isn't me losing. You think both of these statements I've made are hilarious because if my objective is to prevent enemies from getting points hows is letting them take the camp not losing. You failed to realize that if you can't beat the guy on point, that point was never yours to begin with. He would have taken it if you never showed up, he would have taken it if you fought and died, he would have taken it if you fought and ran, either way he's taking it. If you fought, can't beat the guy, and ran you didn't lose anything cause it wasn't yours in the first place. Gaining the ability to go and kill someone else or flipping something else when you should have died is a win.

57 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Again, what? I'm not "spinning" anything, it's pretty clear from the start of you posting here that you're just crying about feeling bad when you don't kill the enemy while you said you don't even care about the objectives.

 

Ya you are, pretty sure from the start it's me calling you out on your BS.

57 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You're not supposed to addres me with "you" when you're making up your silly stories on the go.

And it seems you have some serious issues with the grooming, you sure you're ok over there? Or do you just like the word so much that you stupidly overuse it in every single post and it somehow brings you satisfaction?

I said "if you". A hypothetical.  Me saying "If you get shot, you will die", mean exactly if you get shot, you will die. It doesn't mean you got shot and have died. It means if anyone got shot they will die. You, yes you, now I'm addressing you directly, must be getting pretty desperate since you are getting this petty. "Don't use the word "you" when you are talking to me. It offends me. Use "if player A" instead". Srsly?

 

You are grooming. Again what word would you like me to use instead that has the same meaning and would satisfy your pettiness?

Edited June 5, 2021 by szeng.1267

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, szeng.1267 said:

You said you find it hilarious that one of my objective is preventing my enemy from getting points for their team.

You didn't say "points", you said "rewards", which was the part that was ridiculous if that would really be your focus while playing the game.

Somehow I don't think this is going anywhere with you constantly changing what you've said 🙃
 

 

Just now, szeng.1267 said:

Ya you are, pretty sure from the start it's me calling you out on your BS.

The start was ME calling YOU on your bs, but -again- what do I expect from you twisting the story again, feel free to live in your own world if that's what you need.

 

Just now, szeng.1267 said:

I said "if you". A hypothetical.  Me saying "If you get shot, you will die", mean exactly if you get shot, you will die. It doesn't mean you got shot and have died. It means if anyone got shot they will die. You, yes you, now I'm addressing you directly, must be getting pretty desperate since you are getting this petty. "Don't use the word "you" when you are talking to me. It offends me. Use "if player A" instead". Srsly?

Just first random quote from the post above "You're roaming wvw on a thief(...)" nice hYpOtHeTiCaL. And that's exactly what I'm talking about, you're making up ranadom stories and inserting me telling me what I'm doing when you have no idea what I'm doing and how I'm playing. Keep making excuses now, because that's totally not the way you keep writing, right? 😄

 

Just now, szeng.1267 said:

You are grooming. Again what word would you like me to use instead that has the same meaning and would satisfy your pettiness?

Nope, you're wrong.

[szeng.1267]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You didn't say "points", you said "rewards", which was the part that was ridiculous if that would really be your focus while playing the game.

Somehow I don't think this is going anywhere with you constantly changing what you've said 🙃

When I said "point" I mean the camp, the glowing circle. The "camp" wasn't yours in the first place so you lose nothing for abandoning it. Just because I used another word than I did earlier doesn't mean I'm changing what I'm saying. Stoop even lower with your pettiness.

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The start was ME calling YOU on your bs, but -again- what do I expect from you twisting the story again, feel free to live in your own world if that's what you need.

My BS? What is my BS? That survival isn't losing? Your BS is you trying to convince people that successfully disengaging so you can go and do another objective when you would have otherwise died is you losing. What story am I twisting? If this isn't your point then what is your point?

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Just first random quote from the post above "You're roaming wvw on a thief(...)" nice hYpOtHeTiCaL. And that's exactly what I'm talking about, you're making up ranadom stories and inserting me telling me what I'm doing when you have no idea what I'm doing and how I'm playing. Keep making excuses now, because that's totally not the way you keep writing, right? 😄

Oh so you don't play thief? Well forgive me. How does that change getting away if you would have otherwise died is not a lose?

So explain how you're playing? When you about to die you don't try to run to stay alive so you can keeping fighting? Anyone can disengage but not anyone can do it easily, so how is disengaging on your own terms successfully considered losing? I don't care what class you play or what mode you play. Surviving when you would have otherwise died is not losing. This statement is universal. When you about to die you do everything you can to stay alive cause you know the benefits of surviving in whatever game mode you play and is not just cause it feels good. Did I "assume" correctly or do you actually not know? Cause I'm pretty dam sure you know and is pretending you don't on the forums.

Edited June 5, 2021 by szeng.1267

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, szeng.1267 said:

When I said "point" I mean the camp, the glowing circle. The "camp" wasn't yours in the first place so you lose nothing for abandoning it. Just because I used another word than I did earlier doesn't mean I'm changing what I'm saying. Stoop even lower with your pettiness.

Jesus, that response was clearly under the quote where you wrote:

"You said you find it hilarious that one of my objective is preventing my enemy from getting points for their team."

 

When I never said anything like that. I said that about you focusing on "opponents not getting rewards", because if that's your focus in the game then you have some issues and misplaced priorities.

I even explained that in the last post by writing: "You didn't say "points", you said "rewards", which was the part that was ridiculous if that would really be your focus while playing the game." and yet you're still lost. No wonder nothing goes through to you, you fail to follow the context of 3 posts, even if the 3rd one explains/repeats what the first one said. You used another word, which has another meaning, so I'm responding to what you wrote. But instead you're trying to tell me I said something I didn't just because you want to back up from your previous weird claim.

Have fun with your constant BSing and excuses, because apparently you never mean what you write and it's somehow my fault 🙃

 

Quote

My BS? What is my BS?

For real, are you even reading anything? 😆

 

"being forced to disengage" = "disengage on your own terms", ooookeeeeey. Or the person who disengages -regardless of the class- just wasted time fighting over objectives, LOST and now needs to run somewhere else. I'm sure every player running away plans exactly that when they engage the fight over the objectives, lol.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[szeng.1267]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Jesus, that response was clearly under the quote where you wrote:

"You said you find it hilarious that one of my objective is preventing my enemy from getting points for their team."

 

When I never said anything like that. I said that about you focusing on "opponents not getting rewards", because if that's your focus in the game then you have some issues and misplaced priorities.

I even explained that in the last post by writing: "You didn't say "points", you said "rewards", which was the part that was ridiculous if that would really be your focus while playing the game." and yet you're still lost. No wonder nothing goes through to you, you fail to follow the context of 3 posts, even if the 3rd one explains/repeats what the first one said. You used another word, which has another meaning, so I'm responding to what you wrote. But instead you're trying to tell me I said something I didn't just because you want to back up from your previous weird claim.

Have fun with your constant BSing and excuses, because apparently you never mean what you write and it's somehow my fault 🙃

😆

Wtf. So you throw a hissy fit cause I said I prevent my opponent from getting reward instead of my opponent getting points. You get a reward when you win. To win you need points. How do you think I stop my opponents from getting rewards? By preventing them getting points. What are you on about. Nothing goes through me cause you spend more time typing things like "you don't understand", "you keep changing what your saying", "you used rewards instead of points", something along those lines whiling completely ignoring the actual discussion. I'm trying to tell you you said something you didn't? I straight up asked you what your claim was and you ignored it. Are you pretending you like you don't know the benefits of surviving and it's more then just feeling good or not? Am I wrong In assuming you actually know and you're just down playing it or not? Keep ignoring the actual discussion and write about how me using a different word is throwing you off instead. 

 

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

For real, are you even reading anything? 

 

"being forced to disengage" = "disengage on your own terms", ooookeeeeey. Or the person who disengages -regardless of the class- just wasted time fighting over objectives, LOST and now needs to run somewhere else. I'm sure every player running away plans exactly that when they engage the fight over the objectives, lol.

Are YOU reading anything?

 

So when you successfully dodge any enemies attack do you say you lost cause you were forced to dodge? You not forced to do anything you could have taken the hit if you wanted just like you could have stayed and died if you wanted.

You are disengaging on your own terms. You chose to do it. The only reason you say you are being forced to is because you're tunnel visioning that stupid camp. Glowy circle means I don't walk out. I leave I lose. Wtf who cares about that stupid camp, there's so many other camps. Why you stuck on that camp? Your objective is not just that camp. If you can't take that camp how is choosing to contribute to the game mode in another way losing?

You just wasted your time? Did you not waste just as much as the other guys time? He would have flipped that camp earlier if you didn't show up at all.

 

Again stop pretending like you actually care about that camp so much and is willing to die on it. Stop pretending like people who choose to do something else if they can't take that camp is losing. Going to contribute in another way if you can't take that glowy circle is a legit strategy to win. You do it, I do it, everyone does it. Or are you going to keep pretending you don't know about this strategy and don't use it and claim I'm making stuff up about you? Are you trying to groom people into thinking leaving that camp is then losing or not? You claiming they are "forced to disengage" already tells me you know that preventing yourself from dying when you otherwise should have is not losing. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by szeng.1267

[Sobx.1758]

31 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Wtf. So you throw a hissy fit

What? Where, when? Do you understand the words you're using? Because maybe that's the problem with your posts and your """answers""".

 

 

Quote

cause I said I prevent my opponent from getting reward instead of my opponent getting points.

WOAH I SAID BLUE INSTEAD OF RED AND YOU RESPONDED TO ME SAYING BLUE WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DOING, THIS IS YOUR FAULT AND BAD INTENTIONS!!11

 

Sure, buddy. Maybe think what BS you write before you press "submit" and then you won't need to make excuses in every other post about things YOU previously wrote, lmao.

 

Quote

You get a reward when you win. To win you need points.

So forcing someone off the point is good for you, exactly. Will you finally understand something here even after you type it out by yourself?

At this point... doubt. 😆

 

Didn't read the rest, because after your GREAT AND TOTALLY RELEVANT COMPARISON TO DODGING it's clear your posts are still pure nonsense and a waste of time 😞

Maybe I'll start reading them in their entirety when you stop constantly changing what you've previously said though. Maybe.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[szeng.1267]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What? Where, when? Do you understand the words you're using? Because maybe that's the problem with your posts and your """answers""".

 

 

WOAH I SAID BLUE INSTEAD OF RED AND YOU RESPONDED TO ME SAYING BLUE WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DOING, THIS IS YOUR FAULT AND BAD INTENTIONS!!11

 

Sure, buddy. Maybe think what BS you write before you press "submit" and then you won't need to make excuses in every other post about things YOU previously wrote, lmao.

 

So forcing someone off the point is good for you, exactly. Will you finally understand something here even after you type it out by yourself?

At this point... doubt. 😆

 

Didn't read the rest, because your posts are pure nonsense and a waste of time 😞

 

 

Lol that's it? Red and blue? You want to discuss why you think point and rewards don't go hand in hand instead? Can you dodge the discussion even harder? 

 

Ya to win you do need points but you don't need THAT specific camp, as I already said. Again keep dodging. Keep pretending like you actually tunnel vision that camp when you don't.

 

Ya let me force this guy off this camp and don't  prevent him from taking the other camp or killing my other teammate. So good for me. 

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Lol that's it? Red and blue? You want to discuss why you think point and rewards don't go hand in hand instead? Can you dodge the discussion even harder? 

I already commented on that, how many times do you want me to repeat obvious things? Meanwhile all you did is pretend you wrote something else as well as claiming I wrote something I clearly didn't. So what's the point when this is what you'll just keep doing? 🙄
 

Quote

Ya to win you do need points but you don't need THAT specific camp, as I already said.

You don't need THAT specific camp, but denying THAT specific camp is also part of the process 😱

Rocket science, I know.

 

Meanwhile you cry on the forum, because you camped ""the spawn"" and didn't catch someone, lmao. Hint: then don't camp ""the spawn"" 😮

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[szeng.1267]

45 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I already commented on that, how many times do you want me to repeat obvious things? Meanwhile all you did is pretend you wrote something else as well as claiming I wrote something I clearly didn't. So what's the point when this is what you'll just keep doing? 🙄
😮

Of course your not going to admit that you are trying to trick people into thinking that executing a winning strategy is losing. I never claimed you ever wrote that. I'm claiming that's what you trying to do.

45 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You don't need THAT specific camp, but denying THAT specific camp is also part of the process 😱

Rocket science, I know.

 😮

Like successfully escaping death so you can continue to fight is part of the process? You denied that camp he went and got another you both still have one camp. Every time the other guy gets into trouble he can leave and contribute elsewhere. Every time you get into trouble you are more likely to die and cant continue to contribute. How did you win and how did he lose?

45 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Meanwhile you cry on the forum, because you camped ""the spawn"" and didn't catch someone, lmao. Hint: then don't camp ""the spawn"" 😮

Meanwhile you throwing a hissy fit cause you're getting called out for trying to groom people into thinking being able to contribute elsewhere if you can't take that camp is losing.

Edited June 5, 2021 by szeng.1267

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, szeng.1267 said:

Of course your not going to admit that you are trying to trick people into thinking that executing a winning strategy is losing. I never claimed you ever wrote that. I'm claiming that's what you trying to do.

See, you're doing this again, lmao. Pretend whatever you want, it doesn't change anything I wrote nor does it change all the BS you wrote. I'm just not falling for this kitten anymore o/

 

Quote

Like successfully escaping death so you can continue to fight is part of the process? You denied that camp he went and got another you both still have one camp. Every time the other guy gets into trouble he can leave and contribute elsewhere. Every time you get into trouble you are more likely to die and cant continue to contribute. How did you win and how did he lose?

Already explained in the posts above, maybe a page or two ago. Make sure to read with understanding.

 

Quote

Meanwhile you throwing a hissy fit cause you're getting called out for trying to groom people into thinking being able to contribute elsewhere if you can't take that camp is losing.

Never "threw a hissy fit", nice try though and you consistently fail at any "call out" you think you've made while lying about what either of us wrote, lmao.

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[szeng.1267]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Didn't read the rest, because after your GREAT AND TOTALLY RELEVANT COMPARISON TO DODGING it's clear your posts are still pure nonsense and a waste of time 😞

 

Of course you stopped reading the rest. Cause the rest is actually on topic and not your boo woo you stated something in a different way then you did before.

[szeng.1267]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

See, you're doing this again, lmao. Pretend whatever you want, it doesn't change anything I wrote nor does it change all the BS you wrote. I'm just not falling for this kitten anymore o/

Keep dodging. I straight up asked you what part of what part of surviving when you would have otherwise died is BS.

 

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Already explained in the posts above, maybe a page or two ago. Make sure to read with understanding.

 

Your explanation is you tunnel visioning that camp. Me no leave camp. Leave camp = me lose. Go do something else. That's what happens when if have the ability to disengage.

[AikijinX.6258]

@Cal Cohen.2358 @Cal Cohen.3527 @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 Someone just close and lock this thread. It’s way past it’s time and conversation has become regurgitated, repetitive, toxic, and just plain non constructive. Please do the community a favor and end this 18 page way-past-due thread. Thank You.

Edited June 5, 2021 by AikijinX.6258

[MrForz.1953]

Hm, it did start to live past its usefulness at page 15. Beyond that I'd have fancied a more civil discussion or just actual thought instead of emotion on that matter.

[Dralor.3701]

Thief is kind of useless outside of the stealth gimmick. The class needs a complete overhaul.

 

But yeah, GW2 has the worst iteration of stealth I’ve seen in an mmo.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 5/29/2021 at 2:49 PM, MrForz.1953 said:

 

We probably will never know since it won't ever happen. I'd almost be tempted to dust off my thief if it did.

 

next  buff will be a healing thief  LoL

minstrell healing thief thats  twhen hief will become meta :P cause WvW is misntrell or condi or GTFO!

 

Joking asside, i think thief damage is really good outside pve(idk thief damage on pve) making it a class with a higher know how 2 play  m8 not be a bad thing.

Thing m8 be non dps stats players want to play thief like a warrior wich is what ic most time and they loose damage and crit damage overall with poor usage of thief and its elites utilities.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Hadi.6025]

people complain about this for years. Devs never listened to you then why would they start now. You people complain ever kitten'kitten day on the forums about this. Play another game. End of story. 

[Dralor.3701]

On 6/10/2021 at 10:05 AM, Hadi.6025 said:

people complain about this for years. Devs never listened to you then why would they start now. You people complain ever kitten'kitten day on the forums about this. Play another game. End of story. 

It isn’t too much for anyone to ask them to take another look at such a system especially with an expansion on the horizon.

 

Also isn’t just people crying for nerfs. I usually play stealth classes in MMOs, thief was my first 80 and I would like to enjoy it in GW2. Thief just isn’t it though, deadeye is even worse... so clunky and not fun.

[Zavijah.2695]

I remember when I first played this game, that Thief was my first class. I wanted a stealther, and couldn't even fathom that stealth had a super limited timeframe. The concept was just beyond me. 
After leaving the game, learning about Action style MMO's via ESO and then eventually returning and being here for quite some time, I've built my alt Thief as a really cool Monk with staff, and haven't thought about stealth since. 

Stealth doesn't bother me, and I rarely see it being used, in whatever mode I am in. But playing Devil's Advocate for a moment though, for those who want it, I can remember and appreciate how much fun it is to slip on by other players, or NPC's. 

I haven't read all 18 pages of this thread previously, so please pardon if something like this has been raised, but what about a dedicated Stealth ability (Signet), slotted on the right hand bar,, that has no timer to duration but has a cool down on it, that could potentially, through traits, trigger a reduction or reset in timer to re-enter stealth. That way it's a deliberate playstyle which would otherwise forego other advantageous passives/abilities. 

 

[kash.9213]

14 hours ago, Zavijah.2695 said:

I remember when I first played this game, that Thief was my first class. I wanted a stealther, and couldn't even fathom that stealth had a super limited timeframe. The concept was just beyond me. 
After leaving the game, learning about Action style MMO's via ESO and then eventually returning and being here for quite some time, I've built my alt Thief as a really cool Monk with staff, and haven't thought about stealth since. 

Stealth doesn't bother me, and I rarely see it being used, in whatever mode I am in. But playing Devil's Advocate for a moment though, for those who want it, I can remember and appreciate how much fun it is to slip on by other players, or NPC's. 

I haven't read all 18 pages of this thread previously, so please pardon if something like this has been raised, but what about a dedicated Stealth ability (Signet), slotted on the right hand bar,, that has no timer to duration but has a cool down on it, that could potentially, through traits, trigger a reduction or reset in timer to re-enter stealth. That way it's a deliberate playstyle which would otherwise forego other advantageous passives/abilities. 

 

There already is a deliberate playstyle, and right now I can at least try some Pulls and Stone or something before someone goes into stealth. You're also talking about dedicating another utility slot to another required skill, where thieves are already funneled into required trait lines, traits, and skills. This is after all the talk about giving the thief more build diversity while nerfing that diversity almost immediately. Maybe actually read through some of the thread even if it's long and gauge how reasonable or even legit a lot of the complaints about stealth are and how realistic suggestions and feedback gets dismissed in favor of the usual screeching for nerfs.