Follow Up to May 11 Balance Preview

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, TheBravery.9615 said:

what are you on about? I'd say their attention is more focused on pve over pvp/wvw. Look at the pvp/wvw version of headbutt.

 

It's totally asinine

 

Well, it's the opposite, it's not that they focus on PvE, they simply ignored PvE for 1 year straight and made change almost only in sPvP/WvW. This design of headbutt is only due to sPvP/WvW balance focus and... Well... "Lack" of follow up the subject of hard CC skill just like there was a lack of follow up on 300s CD traits.

 

The May 11 balance patch is sold as a PvE patch but in reality the major change seem more sPvP/WvW targeted than PvE targeted. Retal/resolve change have 0 impact in PvE for example since the boon was dead in this gamemode and the new boon still offer nothing interesting. On another hand, no retal in WvW offer a new lease at life for low health point backliners while resolve reduce substantially incoming condition damage effectively making it easier to push through the necromancer's various aoe.

[Infusion.7149]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Well, it's the opposite, it's not that they focus on PvE, they simply ignored PvE for 1 year straight and made change almost only in sPvP/WvW. This design of headbutt is only due to sPvP/WvW balance focus and... Well... "Lack" of follow up the subject of hard CC skill just like there was a lack of follow up on 300s CD traits.

 

The May 11 balance patch is sold as a PvE patch but in reality the major change seem more sPvP/WvW targeted than PvE targeted. Retal/resolve change have 0 impact in PvE for example since the boon was dead in this gamemode and the new boon still offer nothing interesting. On another hand, no retal in WvW offer a new lease at life for low health point backliners while resolve reduce substantially incoming condition damage effectively making it easier to push through the necromancer's various aoe.

The Bravery is right, it's a PvE patch.

Since he mains warrior I think, the first thing noticed would be the changes to banners and doubled standards along with axe mastery and peak performance. All those are PvE changes.

Mantras lost the cast after charges are used up which introduced new issues for competitive as it lost counterplay.
 

Torment changes were not thought of with competitive in mind. Adding quickness to superspeed (lol) was not thought of and split.

Scourge is commonly cited as oppressive in PvP yet it didn't get any nerf to sustain and received an improved Blood Bank and Soul Barbs.

Adding alacrity to staff mirage and making it a spam auto build is not meant for competitive. Nerfing entire chaos traitline sustain for more DPS is not competitive focused.

Renegade received a few minor buffs along with a heavy nerf to Soulcleave summit. Holo had a merge between modes for photon forge damage bonus. Weaver had a buff to condi damage and a nerf to power damage, even though the most common weavers in PVP use burning.

Then there's the increase in cooldown to One Wolf pack only in PVE which makes no sense for any mode. The skill split merge between modes for Sic Em increased the consistency of skills between modes, on the other hand.

For the golden child known as guardian, only symbol of punishment (Scepter 2) was nerfed in WvW along with Eternal Armory in all modes. Because retaliation was changed to resolution, as one of the classes with highest uptime and also cleanses it basically means aegis will block most power burst while also having protection versus conditions (resolution). The greatsword symbol had nearly halved recharge on top of that.

Anyone who has ever played PVP for any amount of time would tell you making condi thief a thing is probably not a good idea since it's been nerfed heavily in the past. Yet here we have a patch that completely improves condi thief including +25% damage (which matters more in PVP than PVE).

Boon thief + boon chrono aren't brought in competitive. Yet they were nerfed in this patch.

...

All these combined with WVW + PVP events planned suggest they will use the events as data gathering to nerf things in the near future but for competitive modes.

 

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/18/2021 at 7:24 PM, Jski.6180 said:

@Fire Attunement.9835

Why dose anet hate ele? Its to the point where state do nothing for the class and often its more important for the modifiers also know as the build of the class more so then any thing else in the game. The thing is other classes can get the modifiers and still have there class effect something ele is very much lacking (maybe smoothing mist is about all ele has as a class that no other has for the slot but even gurd has a class only heal over time making the ele effect pointless.)

 

Its to the point where as a player of ele i feel i need to warn new ppl about playing ele that its a trap of a class that is going no where.

 

This update did nothing for ele it some how even took away from ele. I ask Why dose anet hate ele?

It would be helpful to make your opinion a bit less biased if you at least started reading full patchnotes instead of just ele bits in an attempt to pretend ele has some especially negative treatment.

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Jski.6180]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It would be helpful to make your opinion a bit less biased if you at least started reading full patchnotes instead of just ele bits in an attempt to pretend ele has some especially negative treatment.

 

 

 

Nothing realty happen to ele that the point for a class that was already seen as week to only get nothing after other classes got power creeped. That is the point of these negative you have weaver losing power dmg with out getting any added condi dmg effect but for the 5% more dmg. Tempest got longer burn but nothing for bleeds and support. Core ele got only a small buff to its 1 skill.

 

The level of power creeped added to every class who has torment is significant. Every class who got a power creep from retal replacement was significant as well. Every class that got alacrity and quinkness to be viable support was a lot more.

 

What notes are you talking about quote them its not hard that i seemed to miss the buff they gave to ele.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Nothing realty happen to ele that the point for a class that was already seen as week to only get nothing after other classes got power creeped. That is the point of these negative you have weaver losing power dmg with out getting any added condi dmg effect but for the 5% more dmg. Tempest got longer burn but nothing for bleeds and support. Core ele got only a small buff to its 1 skill.

Yeah, because while you cry about "powercreep", we also need to buff top dmg builds, because that's what makes sense, not the complete opposite of that 🙃

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

What notes are you talking about quote them its not hard that i seemed to miss the buff they gave to ele.

All of them, in context of your constant crying about "ele getting nerfed so hard but other classes totally aren't, anet totally hates my class". If that's what you think then you're just playing one class and constantly read patch notes for that one class.

[Jski.6180]

Any way classes who missed out on the power creep added where in effect nerfed. This is what happens when anet adds in power creep unequally to the game. Even the last big update that nerfed dmg healing nearly every thing but more equal in its effect.

[Dadnir.5038]

14 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The Bravery is right, it's a PvE patch.

 

That's arguable.

 

Quote

Torment changes were not thought of with competitive in mind. Adding quickness to superspeed (lol) was not thought of and split.

 

People in sPvP/WvW typically complain that there is to much condition damage going on. The torment change "reducing" torment damage in these gamemodes is a good things for all those peoples. As for adding  quickness to superspeed, what's funny? Both effect have the same thematic of a "burst" of speed (fact is that quickness + superspeed is a good thing to have in sPvP/WvW, it might not be fun to be on the receiving end but so what? It's not fun either to be perma CC yet ANet enforce this design again and again with each PvP focused patch).

 

Quote

Scourge is commonly cited as oppressive in PvP yet it didn't get any nerf to sustain and received an improved Blood Bank and Soul Barbs.

 

And you really think that scourge ever asked for more sustain in PvE? You know, a gamemode where you typically focus on dealing damage only. Even if BB gave 100% barrier from heal while below max health nobody would use it in PvE, that's a pure PvP trait.

 

Look, you're seeing that afterward with the consequences. But truth is that when they released the preview of the patch note, people were crying that with torment change scourge would lose damage in competitive mode, completely disregarding the fact that Soul barbs would keep these damage to a slightly lower level.

 

Quote

Adding alacrity to staff mirage and making it a spam auto build is not meant for competitive. Nerfing entire chaos traitline sustain for more DPS is not competitive focused.

 

So you believe that easy alacrity source don't benefit competitive mode? You think that a zerg in WvW wouldn't find value in such thing? People often say that there is no room for mesmer in WvW, do you think that giving him easy access to something that can grant it's ally a boon that reduce their CD by 25% wouldn't help him there?

 

I'm just quoting these 2 things but, like most, you're not thinking at the whole picture, your just looking at what's seemingly lost to PvP but you're not looking at what these changes answer to PvP longterm concerns. The changes that aren't PvE only affect all gamemodes and answer both PvE and PvP concerns. (And a good part of the PvE only change are, in fact, PvE numbers being normalized with PvP numbers.)

 

[Infusion.7149]

17 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

That's arguable.

 

 

People in sPvP/WvW typically complain that there is to much condition damage going on. The torment change "reducing" torment damage in these gamemodes is a good things for all those peoples. As for adding  quickness to superspeed, what's funny? Both effect have the same thematic of a "burst" of speed (fact is that quickness + superspeed is a good thing to have in sPvP/WvW, it might not be fun to be on the receiving end but so what? It's not fun either to be perma CC yet ANet enforce this design again and again with each PvP focused patch).

 

 

And you really think that scourge ever asked for more sustain in PvE? You know, a gamemode where you typically focus on dealing damage only. Even if BB gave 100% barrier from heal while below max health nobody would use it in PvE, that's a pure PvP trait.

 

Look, you're seeing that afterward with the consequences. But truth is that when they released the preview of the patch note, people were crying that with torment change scourge would lose damage in competitive mode, completely disregarding the fact that Soul barbs would keep these damage to a slightly lower level.

 

 

So you believe that easy alacrity source don't benefit competitive mode? You think that a zerg in WvW wouldn't find value in such thing? People often say that there is no room for mesmer in WvW, do you think that giving him easy access to something that can grant it's ally a boon that reduce their CD by 25% wouldn't help him there?

 

I'm just quoting these 2 things but, like most, you're not thinking at the whole picture, your just looking at what's seemingly lost to PvP but you're not looking at what these changes answer to PvP longterm concerns. The changes that aren't PvE only affect all gamemodes and answer both PvE and PvP concerns. (And a good part of the PvE only change are, in fact, PvE numbers being normalized with PvP numbers.)

 

Condi herald was already pretty much gone after resistance was cut (torment build), scourge didn't get hurt as much since it is ranged.

Superspeed was already oppressive , putting quickness onto the med kit class that was benefiting extensively from boons for heal scaling made it worse. When you're outside PvE due to the damage splits , the quickness means DPS scrapper potentially does as much damage as holo.
 

Think again with one dodge mirage. If you need to run utilities for mirage cloak it isn't very viable plus the staff auto is projectile. It's verbatim the issue with diviner renegade in WvW for alacrity : you dodge and lose crit chance on renegade. For mirage you need to use your one dodge to get alacrity. You have to be really "creative" to run that over a sword chrono or sword core mesmer even.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Condi herald was already pretty much gone after resistance was cut (torment build), scourge didn't get hurt as much since it is ranged.

Superspeed was already oppressive , putting quickness onto the med kit class that was benefiting extensively from boons for heal scaling made it worse. When you're outside PvE due to the damage splits , the quickness means DPS scrapper potentially does as much damage as holo.
 

Think again with one dodge mirage. If you need to run utilities for mirage cloak it isn't very viable plus the staff auto is projectile. It's verbatim the issue with diviner renegade in WvW for alacrity : you dodge and lose crit chance on renegade. For mirage you need to use your one dodge to get alacrity. You have to be really "creative" to run that over a sword chrono or sword core mesmer even.

Condi herald dose work in small groups when paired up with a root/stuns torment still hits hard in wvw/spvp when paried with a root/stun class.

 

Superspeed is an broken effect that was only balanced by being rare and on low duration. Scraper super speed is too much and added other effects ontop of that make is comply broken as an effect in wvw/spvp. In pve is nearly pontless more of a QOL the best thing anet could of done was make scraper wells / gyro effect that give super speed no longer give super speed but give quinkness at a higher duraiton then it is now. So there would of been a real give and take for the class.

 

Marz alacrity in wvw is too much any thing 10 target is too much for wvw. It needs to be fixed and split.

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Marz alacrity in wvw is too much any thing 10 target is too much for wvw. It needs to be fixed and split.

That's fully subjective and pretty much just depends on your preference about the squad compositions. Apparently you want more supports per group at the same time, which doesn't make it an objective issue that "needs to be fixed".

Edited May 20, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Jski.6180]

7 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That's fully subjective and pretty much just depends on your preference about the squad compositions. Apparently you want more supports per group at the same time, which doesn't make it an objective issue that "needs to be fixed".

They did actively remove all 10 target support effects from wvw as well as spvp (all though its kind of pointless in spvp any way).

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/21/2021 at 6:36 AM, Jski.6180 said:

They did actively remove all 10 target support effects from wvw as well as spvp (all though its kind of pointless in spvp any way).

If 10 target support effects are currently in the game -and they are- then they didn't actively remove all 10 target support effects.

 

So no.

[Jski.6180]

12 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If 10 target support effects are currently in the game -and they are- then they didn't actively remove all 10 target support effects.

 

So no.

10 target support in wvw was nerf and removed but an new added effect it is apparent  anet forgot to split it.

 

Added note if your doing all the "confusion" reaction i am explaining my point of view if you dont like it that fine but i am cleaning it up. Or are you using it as a "torll" because that how you get reaction removed to vote up only.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Jski.6180

[Sobx.1758]

27 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

10 target support in wvw was nerf and removed but an new added effect it is apparent  anet forgot to split it.

Yeah, they totally forgot because you said so. 🙃

 For now you're just wrong and they didn't remove 10-man effects.

 

 

[Jski.6180]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah, they totally forgot because you said so. 🙃

 For now you're just wrong and they didn't remove 10-man effects.

 

 

"Shout Skills: Increased the maximum number of targets from 5 to 10 in PvE only."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2020-12-01#Elementalist

 

Yes they did.

[Sobx.1758]

37 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

"Shout Skills: Increased the maximum number of targets from 5 to 10 in PvE only."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2020-12-01#Elementalist

 

Yes they did.

You said all and that's very clearly what I'm responding to. No, they didn't.

 

 

On 5/21/2021 at 6:36 AM, Jski.6180 said:

They did actively remove all 10 target support effects from wvw as well as spvp (all though its kind of pointless in spvp any way).

🤔

Edited May 22, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Jski.6180]

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You said all and that's very clearly what I'm responding to. No, they didn't.

I am confused by this are you suggesting that because anet forgot to split an skill that is in question for pve vs wvw being 10 target is reason to say that it anet wants there to be 10 target in wvw?

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I am confused by this are you suggesting that because anet forgot to split an skill that is in question for pve vs wvw being 10 target is reason to say that it anet wants there to be 10 target in wvw?

Waht "skill that is in question". There was never "a skill in question", there was just your false claim about "all support skills", which is also quoted above. If you can't follow something this simple then how can you pretend you even want to talk about anything, let alone balancing in mmorpg?

[Jski.6180]

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Waht "skill that is in question". There was never "a skill in question", there was just your false claim about "all support skills", which is also quoted above. If you can't follow something this simple then how can you pretend you even want to talk about anything, let alone balancing in mmorpg?

That the thing your using an very much miss on anet end as trying to make a logic objective of balancing.

 

I am very lost how much your willing to def anet at any cost even when they messed up.

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

That the thing your using an very much miss on anet end as trying to make a logic objective of balancing.

 

I am very lost how much your willing to def anet at any cost even when they messed up.

Got lost a bit? Try re-reading few last posts.

[Sigmoid.7082]

On 5/23/2021 at 7:59 AM, Sobx.1758 said:

Got lost a bit? Try re-reading few last posts.

Some people very much only live, and are able to view, within the context of their preferred class. If their class had something removed then in their world "all" of it has been removed from the game.

[Obtena.7952]

On 5/22/2021 at 5:19 PM, Jski.6180 said:

I am very lost how much your willing to def anet at any cost even when they messed up.

I keep seeing this argument from you ... but you don't understand. There isn't a 'defending Anet' here. They dictate how the game works. There isn't a right or wrong way; there is just how they decide it will be. If the whole premise of every argument you are going to make against changes you don't like is "Anet is wrong", then every case you make is irrelevant. 

 

Again, you fail to look at why Anet makes the changes or even acknowledge the reasons they give to make those changes. Everything you don't like is just Anet being wrong in your eyes. Not a good start for anyone to make. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Some people very much only live, and are able to view, within the context of their preferred class. If their class had something removed then in their world "all" of it has been removed from the game.

That not comply right i am still from an old point of view from the start of gw2 and i try to apply it to every update. So every time they take away an effect or a chose from a class in a game time i find it bad. At the same time every time they do not add a chose for a class for any game type is also not a good thing.

 

All classes should be able to play all rolls and there realty should not be a true roll.

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

That not comply right i am still from an old point of view from the start of gw2 and i try to apply it to every update. So every time they take away an effect or a chose from a class in a game time i find it bad. At the same time every time they do not add a chose for a class for any game type is also not a good thing.

 

All classes should be able to play all rolls and there realty should not be a true roll.

Again, how you think the game should work has no relevance to how the game actually works. Telling us all classes should be able to play all roles is just another thing that makes no sense because this game doesn't have any roles for classes to play into. That's not how it's designed. Classes have themes and those themes have skills given to them appropriate for that theme. If that set of skills fills some archetypical role that a class may have in a typical MMO, then that is just coincidental; I doubt highly that 'giving classes roles' is a design rule Anet follows because it's not necessary to fill roles to be successful in the game. 

 

You got some serious traditional MMO baggage you are carrying around with you ... and very little of it is relevant here. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I doubt highly that 'giving classes roles' is a design rule Anet follows because it's not necessary to fill roles to be successful in the game.

Actually, while it might have been true of this game originally, in the pre-HoT era, it's not as simple anymore. Since then, Anet did add several times some especs or build options that were clearly geared towards specific role (and no, i don't mean dps).

 

Druid elite spec was created for a heal/support role. It was not just a case of "thematics" - it was that Anet felt at that time that raids will need dedicated healers, so they introduced those. And not only Druid, btw, because Ventrari legend and traitline are also made with healer role in mind.

 

Scourge has also been nerfed a number of times with an explanation that it should not have a high dps, because it is a support spec. That's (again) a role, not a thematics.