New Necro elite spec whishlist - EoD

[Pooh.6897]

As the release of the new expansion draws closer, I thought I'd be fun to maybe start posting a whishlist of what I would really like to see for a new necro elite spec. Design-wise, I really like the ideas that scourge and reaper explore. However, this time I would really like to get an elite spec that wont restrict your access to your utility skills. I think it would be so fun if we had access to a shroud that does change the necro (like reaper or vanilla), but that would also affect your utility skills. So when not in shroud, skills do A, when in shroud utility skills change and now do B. Right now, I feel a tad brain-dead every time I enter shroud as vanilla or reaper. I know that scourge shroud doesnt have this problem, but scourge shroud just feels less cool to use to me. I also really hope they manage to find a place for fear, right now fear in pvp is not fun to receive and fear in pve scares thrash mobs away. It's useful for breakbar damage but that's about it.

 

Curious what other necros would like to see for a new elite spec 🙂

[Dadnir.5038]

Well, there is so many thing that I'd like to see that a single e-spec probably wouldn't be enough to put everything together.

1. I'd like to see minion(s) as main mechanism and not as just another optional utility (Lemme slot those DM trait without having to take a minion utility!).
2. I'd like to see dark aura as something the necromancer can access easily (Gimme some leaps on weapons/utilities!).
3. I'd like to see a mechanism that allow the necromancer to leech endurance (More dodge for me, less for my foes!).
4. I'd like to see more self ailment with traits that support the playstyle better (Lemme get boons when I put a condition on myself!).
5. I'd like to see some access to Slow (With the necromancer's experience on being slow he should be an expert at applying it).
6. I'd like to see the necromancer's minion active skill affect the necromancer instead of the pet (Ok, I dream here...).
7. I'd like to see more mechanisms similar to Grim Specter where you drain vitality (not the life drain junk, I'm sick of that, the vitality thing and hopefully it could also extend to other stats).
8. I'd like to see a range auto attack that does splash damage (I'm sick of the piercing grasp design, on 1 skill it's "ok", on 4-5 skills it's way to much).
9. I'd like to see a proper "blast" finisher on the necromancer (and, No! Neither minions actives skills nor staff's mark are "proper" blast finishers.)
10. I'd like to see more hard CC variety on the necromancer (Can we have something else than fear and daze? Please.).
11. ... etc.

[Agrippa.1693]

I always thought the next e-spec would be the absolute Condi King the Necro so much deserves and was expected to be by many people, but never really was!

But, this last patch did buff the Necro (especially Scourge) quite a lot in that matter, so I'm a bit confused now what's going to be next?!?

- Maybe a vampire theme where you deal a LOT of damage, but it comes with a (significant) cost.

- Maybe a real Minion Master, where minions are baked into the espec (like Dadnir is also mentioning).

- Maybe a completely new playstyle experience, like a Wraith where you control your material self, but also your ghostly self. (How... I don't know, but not comparable to a pet or illusion/clone, but really a 2nd necromancer with different skills!)

Edited May 16, 2021 by Agrippa Oculus.3726

[Anchoku.8142]

At this point, there are no major gaps in capability that forces a player to switch professions. That makes me think new elite specializations will have a unique Cantha flavor and maybe a special Cantha mechanic but no new role like professions received with the last two ex-pac's.

 

It is kind of hard to imagine professions becoming so different that they mimic capabilities of other professions; e.g, Necro becoming a boon-spam or high-mobility profession. Then again, Arenanet does move some professions up and down the ranks. Mesmer, Ranger and Necromancer all moved up from the lowest tier with HoT while Elementalist kept seeing exploitable bugs removed and dps shaved. The days of Frost Bow's dodge-back or stacking 25 burning in a few seconds are gone. Professions are not as peaky or as bad as they used to be.

 

Perhaps a change in the aggro mechanic will be next. I would welcome that. Toughness being a major contributor really limits the types of equipment used for PvE. Making toughness and defense less important, adding Health to the calculation, then increasing the aggro values of healing, barrier, damage, boons/conditions, and skills with long cast times would make aggro control more interesting.

[Mediahead.3542]

I don't have much really.  But I do have an idea (or the beginnings of one anyway) for one called a Seance, where they would have either a longbow or shortbow and their shroud skills would have access to distortion. Thematically, it's centered around communing with the dead and traversing the afterlife (which is what the distortion is used for)

[Sigmoid.7082]

Mainhand weapon, no shroud, no minions. 

[Excursion.9752]

MistWalker

With a focus on High pressure damage low survivability and high mobility. A class that uses the mist to get around quickly and their knowledge of the underworld to apply a mix of power and codi damage.

 

I want something like this because scourge is condi reaper is power and it would be nice to have a mix. Also I want the necro to have some mobility. Just tired of being the class with no options in that area.

[Wintermute.5408]

I'll take whatever makes necro meta in endgame PVE for a change. Over the years maining class, and 2 elite specs completely failing to remedy the issue, I'm sick and tired of being unwanted pretty much everywhere. Playing warrior, ranger, guardian, or any of the classes gracefuly blessed with quickness/alacrity spam? You're settled for life in PVE content. Necro? Boy, here's some support spec with barriers nobody ever asks for because straight healing is better. Now move to the shame corner. Don't mind thief, he'll share the bench.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Dadnir.5038]

3 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

I'll take whatever makes necro meta in endgame PVE for a change. Over the years maining class, and 2 elite specs completely failing to remedy the issue, I'm sick and tired of being unwanted pretty much everywhere. Playing warrior, ranger, guardian, or any of the classes gracefuly blessed with quickness/alacrity spam? You're settled for life in PVE content. Necro? Boy, here's some support spec with barriers nobody ever asks for because straight healing is better. Now move to the shame corner. Don't mind thief, he'll share the bench.

 

Objectively, the necromancer is in a perfect spot right now in PvE (Neither ovepowered nor underpowered). Unfortunately it's design isn't meta friendly which is why I doubt whatever ANet give the necromancer will push it in a meta spot whithout involving broken mechanism that would be destroyed in a few patchs (RIP lich's Jagged horror mark, epidemic, No ICD dhuumfire on scourge.)

 

[Wintermute.5408]

23 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Objectively, the necromancer is in a perfect spot right now in PvE (Neither ovepowered nor underpowered). Unfortunately it's design isn't meta friendly which is why I doubt whatever ANet give the necromancer will push it in a meta spot whithout involving broken mechanism that would be destroyed in a few patchs (RIP lich's Jagged horror mark, epidemic, No ICD dhuumfire on scourge.)

 

Define "perfect spot". DPS is good and all, but any class can be DPS. Meanwhile, we're the only "healer" class that can't actually heal. In a game mode run on runes of scholar.

[Dadnir.5038]

5 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Define "perfect spot". DPS is good and all, but any class can be DPS. Meanwhile, we're the only "healer" class that can't actually heal. In a game mode run on runes of scholar.

 

The necromancer can "heal", it could already do it way before scourge.

1. - Perma regen on your party (even squad) is easily achievable (staff) and can net you up to more than 430 hp/s.
2. - Vampiric presence can add more than 180 hp/s out of shroud and above 360 hp/s while in shroud.
3. - Transfusion, as bad as it can be on down allies, can help you burst heal a group for more than 7k. (On scourge, you can bring down the CD of this effect to 10s and it net you more than 700 hp/s on 5 allies)
4. - Well of Blood's CD can be brought down to 20s thanks to alacrity and can net you more than 300 hp/s. (being your second burst heal)

You might not feel like it's a lot but that make 1700 hp/s on a 5 man party. If you add 4k barrier from sand cascade on a 6 seconds CD, you're well above 2k hp/s which is more than enough for a PvE healer.

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

.. which is more than enough for a PvE healer.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable "but this class is better" healer response. My hope for EoD is that Anet continue to develop the game in a way they see fit and don't give any credence to 'not the best' kinds of comments. 

 

As for the new elite spec, I'm hoping they continue with the Scourge approach to life force use because the more I play it, the more I'm convinced that it's superior. For some reason, I do think it would be awesome to see my necro with a longbow. 

[Wintermute.5408]

36 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm just waiting for the inevitable "but this class is better" healer response. My hope for EoD is that Anet continue to develop the game in a way they see fit and don't give any credence to 'not the best' kinds of comments. 

 

As for the new elite spec, I'm hoping they continue with the Scourge approach to life force use because the more I play it, the more I'm convinced that it's superior. For some reason, I do think it would be awesome to see my necro with a longbow. 

Do tell me when was the last time you got healer role in group finder.

Yes, necro can find spots in groups with friends/ guild. But in that environment anything goes anyway - game isn't actually that meta intensive. Problems are in group finder groups. For a class praised for its casual experience, necro has hell of a time getting into "casual" organized groups. And it has always been like that. Always. At least necros aren't insta-kicked anymore, but that's hardly a victory. When scourge was announced, I was so excited for the support aspect. Meanwhile, same expansion created firebrands.

 

Screw healing, really. Give us something, anything desirable. Literally every class other than thief has something. Then hopefully make sure it's not nerfed to the ground due to it being OP in WVW.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Obtena.7952]

 

1 hour ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Yes, necro can find spots in groups with friends/ guild. But in that environment anything goes anyway - game isn't actually that meta intensive. Problems are in group finder groups.

Right ... sounds to me like the problem is with the group, not the class. Even in PUGs, when I do it the rare occasion, I don't have a problem. The problem isn't necro isn't a good healer ... because it is as Dadnir pointed out to you. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Fueki.4753]

I'd like to see a Necromancer elite specialization with a pseudo-Shroud that modifies weapon skills and doesn't lock you out of your utilities, but doesn't act as a second HP bar.

As utilities, it could get Glyphs, which change their effect based on whether the Necromancer is in Shroud or not.

[Dadnir.5038]

54 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... sounds to me like the problem is with the group, not the class. Even in PUGs, when I do it the rare occasion, I don't have a problem. The problem isn't necro isn't a good healer ... because it is as Dadnir pointed out to you. 

 

Indeed, the issue isn't that necro isn't a good healer, it isn't either that necro isn't a good dps nor a good tank. The issue is simply that it's design focus on tools that have low efficiency against PvE design. I said it plenty of time but:

1. - Introducing foes that are immun to critical damage and have high condition damage reduction would make all source of life leeching "meta" and since you can stack those sources the necromancer would end up meta on such encounter (revenant and thief as well, probably)
2. - If defiance was affected by boon hate effects, the necromancer would have been meta condi dps in PvE end game long ago.
3. - If encounters were applying a steady flux of conditions instead of either power damage, absurd burst of conditions or untransferable/uncleansable conditions, the condition manipulation role of the necromancer would have long allowed him to be meta condi dps/support in PvE.

Inadapted encounter design is what grab at the necromancer ankle in PvE. Nothing more, nothing less. I suspect that ANet simply fear the potential of the necromancer when they design the encounters.

[Wintermute.5408]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Indeed, the issue isn't that necro isn't a good healer, it isn't either that necro isn't a good dps nor a good tank. The issue is simply that it's design focus on tools that have low efficiency against PvE design. I said it plenty of time but:

1. - Introducing foes that are immun to critical damage and have high condition damage reduction would make all source of life leeching "meta" and since you can stack those sources the necromancer would end up meta on such encounter (revenant and thief as well, probably)
2. - If defiance was affected by boon hate effects, the necromancer would have been meta condi dps in PvE end game long ago.
3. - If encounters were applying a steady flux of conditions instead of either power damage, absurd burst of conditions or untransferable/uncleansable conditions, the condition manipulation role of the necromancer would have long allowed him to be meta condi dps/support in PvE.

Inadapted encounter design is what grab at the necromancer ankle in PvE. Nothing more, nothing less. I suspect that ANet simply fear the potential of the necromancer when they design the encounters.

That's an overly long way of saying "necro is bad in PVE". Thanks, point proven. Do you seriously expect anet to rework the game mode to suit our class? Or maybe it's the class that needs change, or at least option? Either way, we didn't get both for years.

 

There is meta in PVE. Specific requirements formulated in HoT and never changed since then. You may like it, you may dislike it, but class either fits in, or it doesn't. Except other classes get updated over time. When I left GW2 somewhere in the middle of LW4, Scrapper was never played in PVE period. Now it's suddenly a healer option with boon gen - option, mind you, not mandatory. What did necro get in the same time span? Oh, right, we lost ability to generate protection.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

That's an overly long way of saying "necro is bad in PVE". Thanks, point proven. Do you seriously expect anet to rework the game mode to suit our class? Or maybe it's the class that needs change, or at least option? Either way, we didn't get both for years.

 

There is meta in PVE. Specific requirements formulated in HoT and never changed since then. You may like it, you may dislike it, but class either fits in, or it doesn't. Except other classes get updated over time. When I left GW2 somewhere in the middle of LW4, Scrapper was never played in PVE period. Now it's suddenly a healer option with boon gen - option, mind you, not mandatory. What did necro get in the same time span? Oh, right, we lost ability to generate protection.

 

Did necro lost it's ability to grant protection? As far as I know, Spectral ring can still do the job.

 

The necro got more access to chill, increased damage (both condi and power), improve access to self quickness, fury and protection... etc.

 

You can see things in a vaccum or see the whole picture. The change ANet need to do to PvE are "minor": An addition on defiance to make it trigger boon hate trait/proc. Replace here and there boss fields tic of power damage every 2-3s by a 10-15s bleed/poison stack. Make construct like bosses immun to critical hits and reduced condition damage. All of this is probably more acceptable than going against the design of their professions.

 

NB.: There is no real point in being jealous of scrapper, the spec is already at it's 3rd or 4th rework and at this point it will probably see more reworks in the futur.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

That's an overly long way of saying "necro is bad in PVE".

No it's not saying that at all ... and if that's what you got from that post, it's because it's what you WANTED to see it say. While I don't think Anet needs to rework a game mode to suit the class, it's also true the class doesn't need to be reworked to suit the game mode either. As has been pointed out to you a few times now, Necro isn't 'bad' at any of the things it can do. 

 

But here is some consolation. If you like another class for whatever reason, you CAN choose to play that class because obviously what 'is good in PVE' matters to you and only you seem to be able to convince yourself of what that is. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Anchoku.8142]

Although the probability seems extremely low, a boon-generator build is the only gap left that I see as significant. Necro pays a large opportunity cost for concentration with little or nothing to show for it. An elite specialization able to be competitive in terms of damage and support looks impossible, given core Necromancer's trait lines and skills, but maybe I will be surprised.

 

Resistance and Resolution could be a fit for some crazy boon-build, though, and Arenanet may add new boons, conditions and control effects with the ex-pac, too.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Anchoku.8142
Grammar and punctuation

[Pooh.6897]

I've had a while to think about it, and I think it would be really  cool if we got a new spec that really leans into the theme of "i hurt myself to hurt you more" that necro already has going on with corruptions. How cool would it be if necro shroud would actually be something dangerous to be in and could be mismanaged, like Holosmith? That would be so cool,  like some sort of necro that constantly walks the edge. Right now, shroud is always a safe zone (except scourge). It would be very interesting to see that changed. And yes I agree (forget who it was), glyphs would be a perfect match for a next elite spec. I'm hoping for sword, but I wouldnt be disappointed if we got something else. I just think that necro sword with bleed (like warrior sword AA) would be very fitting for necro and would finally give a good 2nd weapon set that can complement scepter.

 

edit: Think something like the voodoo guy in "The Princess and the Frog" from Disney, the guy that makes dark pacts with evil spirits, eventually mismanages the powers he's been given and then dies.

Edited June 7, 2021 by jiggle puff.9347
clarification

[LucianDK.8615]

Yes, the design of the scourge shroud is definitely the future. The necromancer has been hurt for too long by the poor design of core and reaper shrouds.

 

Alas, they tried to do far too much with scourges, resulting in a mishmash that have been nerfed to the bottom.

[Nimon.7840]

1 hour ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Yes, the design of the scourge shroud is definitely the future. The necromancer has been hurt for too long by the poor design of core and reaper shrouds.

 

Alas, they tried to do far too much with scourges, resulting in a mishmash that have been nerfed to the bottom.

There could still be a tank spec (with shroud) that uses shroud abilities to give mandatory boons to your party.

 

There could for example be a trait that says: share boons you only grant yourself to nearby allies.

 

We can give ourselves quickness, might and fury, even some protection. 

If the new shroud would have a low CD fear on skill 3 then that spec could be a pretty powerful support spec with this trait alone.

Taking staff, playing spite-deathmagic-new elite spec or spite-soulreaping-new elite for more utility/DMG.

 

With that (staff + scepter/x or staff+ new weapon) you could give perma quickness, protection, might, fury and regen (but imo you would have to invest in boon duration quite a bit, else it might be too op if it deals to much damage, because it can basically take DPS gear - oh wait, there's already classes that can do that: tempest/Herold)

 

I think that would be a great design idea. Even firework runes might work with such a trait. But it might be too overpowered as well.

But things like blood is power, that already affect allies would not trigger that trait.

Dunno if that's possible to program something like that.

And for wvw it would need some tweaks, like: only give half the duration of boons you only grant yourself to allies.

 

Tbh. I am still hoping for a full DPS spec, that can compete with other classes DPS (39-41k), while not offering too much group utility/support.

 

But this unique way of buffing allies would be pretty interesting.

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Nimon.7840

[LucianDK.8615]

5 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

There could still be a tank spec (with shroud) that uses shroud abilities to give mandatory boons to your party.

 

There could for example be a trait that says: share boons you only grant yourself to nearby allies.

 

We can give ourselves quickness, might and fury, even some protection. 

If the new shroud would have a low CD fear on skill 3 then that spec could be a pretty powerful support spec with this trait alone.

Taking staff, playing spite-deathmagic-new elite spec or spite-soulreaping-new elite for more utility/DMG.

 

With that (staff + scepter/x or staff+ new weapon) you could give perma quickness, protection, might, fury and regen (but imo you would have to invest in boon duration quite a bit, else it might be too op if it deals to much damage, because it can basically take DPS gear - oh wait, there's already classes that can do that: tempest/Herold)

 

I think that would be a great design idea. Even firework runes might work with such a trait. But it might be too overpowered as well.

But things like blood is power, that already affect allies would not trigger that trait.

Dunno if that's possible to program something like that.

And for wvw it would need some tweaks, like: only give half the duration of boons you only grant yourself to allies.

 

Tbh. I am still hoping for a full DPS spec, that can compete with other classes DPS (39-41k), while not offering too much group utility/support.

 

But this unique way of buffing allies would be pretty interesting.

 

 

 

 

I would say that Reaper would be much better if redesigned towards a damage sponge tank role, especially if the third espec is a -proper- dps.

[Dadnir.5038]

49 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

 

I would say that Reaper would be much better if redesigned towards a damage sponge tank role, especially if the third espec is a -proper- dps.

 

I'm not sure you can decently add more to:

- 33% damage reduction from prot (can be kept up permanently)

- Perma weakness

- 33% damage reduction from "Rise!" (can be kept up almost permanently)

- Shroud inate damage reduction.

- 20% damage reduction from infusing terror.

 

To which you can add:

- 10% damage reduction from food.

- Augury of Death, Soul Eater, Blighter Boon sustain.

- Blood magic sustain.

- Blind sources (Nightfall, Well of Darkness)

- ... etc.

 

If with all that you can't sponge damage then nothing will.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Dadnir.5038