Why Anet is doing so bad at PvP

[Kreths.8457]

Just Why ?

 

They have like 10 000 ideas from community to make this game mode better but they did none of them, updates after updates it's the same thing, just changing metas so the gameplay is a bit different.

 

So the question is why can't they make some good pvp ? At least to give us a new mode to change from the one we got since release with new (let's be honest, pretty boring) maps.

 

Where is the problem ?

 - Do they lack of PvP devs ? (if yes why did they stop that development part)

 - Is this about money ? Market and Pve (to have a reason to play) over all to keep generating ez money ?

 - Is the Pvp really dead ? for me it looks like there is always people in Pvp, they stop Pve when they did their bot farming masteries and stuff.

 - Why are they not communicating about this on forums for example ? It will not kill them or making them out of business to write a post (unless they write something like "ok, we gonna be honest with you we 100% gave up pvp and it will never come back" maybe...)

 

Corona Virus is not an excuse since the PvP was exactly the same long before it.

I think a lot of old gw2 players (those who play since release or ~) know that we can still do a good pvp Mmo with Gw2.

 

Hear me well, i am not talking about balance or class that kill the game but the whole PvP's development, again : why we got nothing ?

 

One another thing : I wrote this Topic for those who believe that GW2 could still be on e-sport scene (some would say tryhards), if you casually do conquest thinking the Pvp is fine you are not the target.

 

This post is not made to blame Anet, in fact i would like to tell them that we are still trusting them to give us some gud Pvp, today it's hope that keep me on GW2 (and maybe they perfectly understood that and this is why they keep saying nothing).

 

 That's my question guys : Why ?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

So here's the thing. First you're not going to get a real answer...one that isn't mere speculation.

 

Second, there are principles we must follow when discussing these kinds of things. One such principle is the principle of charity....which is that you shouldn't assume that a persons creation/explanation is not made without good reason. In other words, when you listen to someone's argument, you give them the most "charitable" interpretation, which is that out of all the possible reasons someone has to do something, you are giving them the most logical interpretation. You basically assume that the other person is not stupid, and that whatever reasons they might have had to do something didn't have a reasonable cause.

 

So given the above, asking why A-net neglects PVP, we should give them the most charitable (logical) assumptions. CMC, and whoever else on the Dev team probably cares a lot about PVP...they do what they can, and they make decisions based on what they believe is the correct way to do balance or whatever else dealing with pvp. Management might not care about just pvp but the state of the game as a whole, in which 90% of players are in the PVE population, so they will care about PVE more then PVP since they're mindset is based on the game as a whole. Are there obvious conflictions there? Sure...that seems like a logical reason "why" we have the state of the game as it is.

 

I have a generally different interpretation, which is less about the company, and more about actual knowledge about game design. I think that at least, that the current balance philosophy of the game has no effect, and isn't well understood...which isn't their fault it's just highly complex and involves knowledge of abstract sciences to understand exactly what needs to be changed to make meaningful changes to the game. 

 

Quote

- Why are they not communicating about this on forums for example ? It will not kill them or making them out of business to write a post (unless they write something like "ok, we gonna be honest with you we 100% gave up pvp and it will never come back" maybe...)

Why should they to be honest? Again, charitable interpretation for someone's actions, is you assume they aren't doing the least logical thing. The most logical reason they would not tell you they quit pvp is because well...they havn't quit on pvp.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Kuma.1503]

As far as I can tell they've been doing a remarkable job of listening to the community. Unfortunately, the community is more interested in witch hunting builds they hate than building up the game-mode to be the best that it can be. The complaints are almost always short sighted and any attempts to discuss what repercussions the changes/nerfs might have get dismissed as "defending broken builds" or something else to that effect. 

 

Naturally, people got what they wanted, and they didn't like how it turned out.

 

If we had a bit less "nerf this nerf that" and a bit more "Improve this, improve that" maybe things would have turned out better. 

[aymnad.9023]

Clearly you are proving why it does not matter if they go through the trouble of balancing PvP. Have you been reading the patch notes that we had over the past months? Most of them were aimed at PvP and were good. Not WvW, not PvE, but PvP. They even added details again.

 

We had a massive diversity in ranked recently (probably one of the highest [if not the highest] the game has ever seen) but it does not matter, people are always crying. Only the last patch has shaken things up but it in EVERY GAME MODE. Adjustments will be coming for sure.

Edited May 17, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Kreths.8457]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Why should they to be honest? Again, charitable interpretation for someone's actions, is you assume they aren't doing the least logical thing. The most logical reason they would not tell you they quit pvp is because well...they havn't quit on pvp.

 

 

I see your point but my logic is different, what i meant is : Being honest could kill a big part of PvP community, by telling the truth you will push to the exit those who stay on gw2 hoping for better PvP days. <= i think that's a logical and charitable interpretation based more on a business pov than "wanting to do something great".

 

By watching every updates since the beginning, real changes or rather additions are very fews, that's why i came to this conclusion.

[Kreths.8457]

16 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Clearly you are proving why it does not matter if they go through the trouble of balancing PvP. Have you been reading the patch notes that we had over the past months? Most of them were aimed at PvP and were good. Not WvW, not PvE, but PvP. They even added details again.

 

We had a massive diversity in ranked recently (probably one of the highest [if not the highest] the game has ever seen) but it does not matter, people are always crying. Only the last patch has shaken things up but it in EVERY GAME MODE. Adjustments will be coming for sure.

 

Build changes wont push the game back to the e-sport scene, it did nothing for the past 8years, why should it now ?

 

Plus i specified we are not really talking about balance here but something more.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Kreths.8457

[razaelll.8324]

Anet are definitely not doing bad at pvp. Its the mmorpg with the best pvp. 

 

 

Can it be better? Ofcourse it can and they should try to do it and as far as i can see they do.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

27 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

As far as I can tell they've been doing a remarkable job of listening to the community. Unfortunately, the community is more interested in witch hunting builds they hate than building up the game-mode to be the best that it can be. The complaints are almost always short sighted and any attempts to discuss what repercussions the changes/nerfs might have get dismissed as "defending broken builds" or something else to that effect. 

 

Naturally, people got what they wanted, and they didn't like how it turned out.

 

If we had a bit less "nerf this nerf that" and a bit more "Improve this, improve that" maybe things would have turned out better. 

Let me say it like this some things are broken but the solutions that Arena.NET doing are somehow most of the time on the wrong place e.g they nerfed the might generation of Weaver after Fire Weaver became a thing after they boosted/merged traits in the earth traitline . This is like doing an operating on the brain when the patient has problems on the foot.

 

Yes the nerf on might generation was one a result of one of the "nerf this nerf that"  outcries  from people with little knowledge on the build. At least I remember one who always was doing that which were possible a troll.

 

My personal target is also that we have a lot of builds available in many game modes.

 

What also is consistent with Arena.NET instead of adjusting numbers they often complete change how the system works(in a very creative way) where adjusting the numbers would have been good enough. When ever they do that they hitting other game modes with it too.

 

How this works out I can also say after might nerf for my Weaver it wasn't considered by the cm and raid community as META. You could still run it but you are better be good personally I was rarely the top DPS at ARC after this  (lost 2k). With the new patch I lost another 3-4k I can basically the build which I have nearly full legendary equip for multiply game modes and roles toss into the pin.

[aymnad.9023]

50 minutes ago, Kreths.8457 said:

 

Build changes wont push the game back to the e-sport scene, it did nothing for the past 8years, why should it now ?

 

Plus i specified we are not really talking about balance here but something more.

Your post is super vague in my opinion. I got the same vibe as the standard post saying “PvP is dead and everything is broken”. Look again at your questions / wording and tell me that I should not have it.

 

Why are they not communicating on the forums (to tell us they gave up on PvP ) -> recently they started doing it again by explaining why they do a change.

 

Why can’t they make good PvP? -> This is as vague as it can be. Everybody can put what they do not like here. Pvp works for me. I find the conquest mode really good because it promotes a lot of gameplay and thus you can find a lot of variations (also the good balance we had recently). I tried the other game modes none of them worked as well for me.

 

Is PvP dead / does it lack dev / resources ? -> As I said most patches were aimed at PvP and we reached a good balance but it never stops people from not looking at them or trying them.

 

Coronavirus is not an excuse  + We got nothing -> lots of patches for pvp only

 

 

Now my question is : What are people expecting? This is what I cannot tell even from your post and I think most people do not know either.

Edit : Maybe I am wrong but sometimes I feel like people are just expecting something different, that will make them feel like they rediscover the game again but has elements of the past which is just a dream. And they should not forget that all modes are tied together which probably has an impact on some  rework suggestions (I think this is the main and most costly reason for them).

Edited May 17, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Sunshine.5014]

Because PvP players don't buy mount skins.

[Kreths.8457]

3 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Now my question is : What are people expecting? This is what I cannot tell even from your post and I think most people do not know either.

 

Well that's the perfect question, will allow me to develop my point.

 

For me, PvP is dead if there is no people to watch it on stream, no real competitions with real money involved.

 

The question is why are they so focused on balance when it's not the real problem, the actual game mode does not work in term of twitch views and "life" around the game, even if they balance it perfectly, there wont be a big living community around it because gamers don't like it (if they liked it, there would be a lot of streamers etc..).

[Bast.7253]

10 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

As far as I can tell they've been doing a remarkable job of listening to the community. Unfortunately, the community is more interested in witch hunting builds they hate than building up the game-mode to be the best that it can be. The complaints are almost always short sighted and any attempts to discuss what repercussions the changes/nerfs might have get dismissed as "defending broken builds" or something else to that effect. 

 

Naturally, people got what they wanted, and they didn't like how it turned out.

 

If we had a bit less "nerf this nerf that" and a bit more "Improve this, improve that" maybe things would have turned out better. 

Really? I've been witch hunting holo for like 3 years now and it hasn't changed much.

Maybe it's time to pull out the pitchfork and torch. 

 

[Spellhunter.9675]

8 hours ago, Kreths.8457 said:

 

Well that's the perfect question, will allow me to develop my point.

 

For me, PvP is dead if there is no people to watch it on stream, no real competitions with real money involved.

 

The question is why are they so focused on balance when it's not the real problem, the actual game mode does not work in term of twitch views and "life" around the game, even if they balance it perfectly, there wont be a big living community around it because gamers don't like it (if they liked it, there would be a lot of streamers etc..).

GW2 PvP is awful for viewers because it is realy hard to understand what is going on.

I guess it depends on following: clear and customable UI, flashy and uninformative animations, fast pace of the game, no castbar or other clear indications to what player is doing actually. IIRC, ESL also said about these reasons. 
So I can assume, changing these things require much more resouces, because these are somewhat of  core elements of the game. And if Anet do not see much potential in PvP in terms of money, they don't want to make such complex changes.

[Kreths.8457]

2 minutes ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

GW2 PvP is awful for viewers because it is realy hard to understand what is going on.

I guess it depends on following: clear and customable UI, flashy and uninformative animations, fast pace of the game, no castbar or other clear indications to what player is doing actually. IIRC, ESL also said about these reasons. 
So I can assume, changing these things require much more resouces, because these are somewhat of  core elements of the game. And if Anet do not see much potential in PvP in terms of money, they don't want to make such complex changes.

 

Do you think it would be a lot more work than trying to balancing every builds/spec years after years ?

 

That's the kind of question i would like Anet to answer.

[Spellhunter.9675]

1 minute ago, Kreths.8457 said:

 

Do you think it would be a lot more work than trying to balancing every builds/spec years after years ?

 

That's the kind of question i would like Anet to answer.

I think balancing have to be made regulary anyway. So it is not like they can stop working on balance and focus on another things.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

10 hours ago, Kreths.8457 said:

 

Well that's the perfect question, will allow me to develop my point.

 

For me, PvP is dead if there is no people to watch it on stream, no real competitions with real money involved.

 

The question is why are they so focused on balance when it's not the real problem, the actual game mode does not work in term of twitch views and "life" around the game, even if they balance it perfectly, there wont be a big living community around it because gamers don't like it (if they liked it, there would be a lot of streamers etc..).

Well Gw2 was always a really fast paced game in the endcontent  + you have an extreme storm of effects on your screen. Especially in  PvP you are forced to see every blink blink from the armour of the rest. On top of this there always some skill , traits or runes which effect you don't know which always let to confusion is this legit?

 

But it went worse with the patch in feb last year . A lot of the bigger(relatively speaking) streamer who did Gw2 PvP quit (and some who even didn't PvP). This should have been a red sign for Arena.NET but they continued with just nerfing until the last patch we have now.

 

The reason they quit is the tank builds had the overhand true this was not only Arena.NETs fault . Player hadn't necros(Scourge) unblockable skills on their monitor which could break the tanks relative easily. But this is still not all another reason for the sudden slowness of the game was that in sPvP HFB and its stabi felt flat which let to an insane influx on receiving  hard cc which cause a drastic reduce in dps. People later tried to by pass this by playing core guard as support only that Arena.NET again nerf stabi.

 

Also at this point the role of healers were mostly reduced to condi cleans and with the newest changed they are hybrid support builds now. Which is also not for great content.

 

Another problem besides the scoring, ranking at face value is how the sPvP list on Meta Battle doesn't make much sense I mean some builds make sense some a memes which seems to be copied from somewhere without checking if this makes sense. If players or Arena:NET build there decision on this ....😰

Edited May 18, 2021 by Lord of the Fire.6870

[Kuma.1503]

7 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

Really? I've been witch hunting holo for like 3 years now and it hasn't changed much.

Maybe it's time to pull out the pitchfork and torch. 

 

Then you have poor memory.

 

The last thing I saw you witch hunting just yesterday was nades. Which have already been nerfed to a laughable degree. I tried playing core nades because everyone is so convinced that they're the second coming of Lyssa. 

 

I had a condi rev face tank like 8 of them, walk up to me, he landed one good CC and I took an equal amount of damage from burning and torment than he did from my 8 nades. Yet when they're discussed on the forums they're supposedly tank melting machines that deal 4k+ damage each with no counterplay.

 

Maybe if more people were willing to play  the builds they complain about. Perhaps roll the core version of whatever holo build they think is broken and see if the core traits/skills are really the main issue... Which would enable them to provide Anet with higher quality feedback that is less tainted by bias and misinformation... 

 

Instead despite engi players saying repeatedly after the... 3rd(?) nades nerf that they weren't the issue anymore and that the problem was Holo's migh gen, vuln application, and lazer's edge (this caused nade barrage to hit especially hard at high heat), they kept complaining about nades again. 

 

You guys got what you asked for. Unsurprisingly, it turned out that nades weren't the issue. It was Holo all along. Now we have prot holo. 

 

The last patch, at the very least, was a step in the right direction, but only for PvE. They shaved some power from Holosmith and put it into core. We need more of this. The amount of value shoved into that one traitline is absurd, while core engi definately needs some love due to the amount of nerfs they've recieed at holo's expense. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

18 hours ago, Kreths.8457 said:

 

I see your point but my logic is different, what i meant is : Being honest could kill a big part of PvP community, by telling the truth you will push to the exit those who stay on gw2 hoping for better PvP days. <= i think that's a logical and charitable interpretation based more on a business pov than "wanting to do something great".

Yea that's also a logical reason. They probably don't want to kill their own player-base, so there's no logic for them to tell us they quit pvp, even if they actually did.

 

Looking at it through this perspective means you shouldn't expect to hear anything from Arena-net, and this is kind of been my stance for many years now, on why I don't really care much about whether a-net communicates with their customers or not. Could they learn a thing or two? Sure they could...but they can also follow bad advise from a customer also. There's definitely more hay in the haystack then there are needles....so at least when I talk on the forum, I'm never actually talking to A-net, I'm talking to everyone else...to perhaps change consensus on an idea so that there are more needles in the haystack so to speak.

 

As for the game itself, i basically think Kuma hits the nail on the head....posts like this below should be sticked on the front page.

 

19 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

As far as I can tell they've been doing a remarkable job of listening to the community. Unfortunately, the community is more interested in witch hunting builds they hate than building up the game-mode to be the best that it can be. The complaints are almost always short sighted and any attempts to discuss what repercussions the changes/nerfs might have get dismissed as "defending broken builds" or something else to that effect. 

 

Naturally, people got what they wanted, and they didn't like how it turned out.

 

If we had a bit less "nerf this nerf that" and a bit more "Improve this, improve that" maybe things would have turned out better. 

 

" the community is more interested in witch hunting builds they hate than building up the game-mode to be the best that it can be."

 

This is the cornerstone for a lot of issues that take place, and not in just this game, but in life too... in a very general sense. It takes a very certain mind-set to pull out to see a bigger picture...We can see this happening in the world of poltics...there's a bigger picture a lot of us can't see because we're too busy here on Earth shifty-eyeing our neighbor and focusing on our immediate problems.

 

When it comes to the game and it's designs in general people are focused on very...how should i say this..."secular issues"...these issues are usually more or less selfish indulgences...even the premise of this thread thread, asking "Why Anet doesn't give us love, why do they not talk to us!" Is rather self indulging...subjective lens to look at an issue. Again there's a bigger picture and looking at a problem from not only many perspectives, but from logical perspectives, is how one should try to see that picture.

 

But @Kreths.8457, at least you are asking questions...which is really the start of making great change. Remove the subjective and introduce the objective and you'll find your answers and move on to bigger questions.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Not enough gametype variations. GW1 had things like random arena's, heroes ascent, fort aspenwood, jade quarry, alliance battles and guild battles.

GW2 just has WvW, conquest and a beta of stronghold with just one map.

[aymnad.9023]

19 hours ago, Kreths.8457 said:

 

Well that's the perfect question, will allow me to develop my point.

 

For me, PvP is dead if there is no people to watch it on stream, no real competitions with real money involved.

 

The question is why are they so focused on balance when it's not the real problem, the actual game mode does not work in term of twitch views and "life" around the game, even if they balance it perfectly, there wont be a big living community around it because gamers don't like it (if they liked it, there would be a lot of streamers etc..).

Ok I think I see what your vision of the PvP is. But I do not think they can push that far.

 

The main appeal of the game is not the pvp or the competition but the casual approach of the game. Casual is often used negatively but this is an advantage. I was playing an mmo like wow before and I enjoyed gw2 because I could take a break, come back or just go in the open world for some time instead of a constant race to not be left behind, feeling like I had to do some stuff everyday (I sometimes do get this feeling but way less).

 

Getting some of the people enjoying this aspect of PvE into PvP is really hard (or even raids) and I cannot blame them, the environment and the flow are so different. It really takes a lot of time to be rewarding and you have to go through all the older players. Even later you can sometimes feel like you play the lottery (like in a lot of pvp games anyway) because not everybody is on the same page when they try to move around the map.

 

Can they promote PvP some more? Maybe ? I think they try some stuff with the gear and it probably works for some players (it also works the other way around since pvp leg gear got me into raids). Sometimes they advertise some events on their main website. I guess they could also put a direct link to the replay but even then I am not sure it will draw people into PvP or they would even be able to enjoy the casting  / gameplay and  have the courage to go through the hard learning of conquest 😕.

 

Learning could be improved but this issue is even present in PvE! I guess they could have better training grounds but giving guidelines is also hard when so many decisions are situational… A lot of people are not even aware of the golem training area in the aerodrome.

 

 

Edit : In the end I find it way better for sPvP to be balanced than popular / advertised to fade away. It means a lot of people can enjoy it at any time and probably makes it easier for everybody to find something they like even if this is only for a quick match.

Edited May 18, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Kreths.8457]

2 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Can they promote PvP some more? Maybe ? I think they try some stuff with the gear and it probably works for some players (it also works the other way around since pvp leg gear got me into raids). Sometimes they advertise some events on their main website. I guess they could also put a direct link to the replay but even then I am not sure it will draw people into PvP or they would even be able to enjoy the casting  / gameplay and  have the courage to go through the hard learning of conquest 😕.

 

We definitly agree on something here. Maybe it could be a solution to change a bit the casting / gameplay so it's less elitist and add a new pvp mode focused more on fights without this rotation from conquest.

 

Make spells effects more identifiable would be a start ? For example on WoW i can tell the name of every spell a mage is casting, it's not the same for those Ele on GW2.

 

There is also some gameplay mechanics from gw2 that i love, for example to interrupt a nec heal as a thief with Steal but in this case the spell animation is pretty identifiable, if more spells would look like that it would be so enjoyable. <= Bold text is the kind of mechanics that tell me it's still possible to make gw2 twitchable.

[Downstate.4697]

Anet does what anet wants. Offering suggestions make no one happy. Enjoy the game for what it is, or dont.

[Xentera.4560]

As far as I can see it, the current ranked system literally discourages people from playing. Why play if the more matches you play the more likely you are to lose? when you start off with an already very small population, and you discourage as group of player from playing more matches the results is the kitten fest we see in ranked every day.
Add to that the fact that the MMR, instead of matching you with people at the same skill level at least according to rank, targets a win rate of 50%. That was an incredibly shortsighted decision on part of Anet, and is very frustrating to the already small player population.

instead of focusing on balance like you have been trying for the past eight years plus,  try and fix the MMR and stop punishing players for the kitten fest it produces in each match.

[Exedore.6320]

On 5/17/2021 at 12:21 PM, Kreths.8457 said:

They have like 10 000 ideas from community to make this game mode better but they did none of them, updates after updates it's the same thing, just changing metas so the gameplay is a bit different.

And most of those ideas are terrible.  This isn't unique to GW2; all game forums are like this.  Don't expect a limited number of developers to be able to respond to each post and point out the flaws.  Some ideas have even been tried internally by ANet in the past and didn't work.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 12:21 PM, Kreths.8457 said:

Where is the problem ?

 - Do they lack of PvP devs ? (if yes why did they stop that development part)

 - Is this about money ? Market and Pve (to have a reason to play) over all to keep generating ez money ?

 - Is the Pvp really dead ? for me it looks like there is always people in Pvp, they stop Pve when they did their bot farming masteries and stuff.

 - Why are they not communicating about this on forums for example ? It will not kill them or making them out of business to write a post (unless they write something like "ok, we gonna be honest with you we 100% gave up pvp and it will never come back" maybe...)

The crux of the problem is that the current development team is not the original development team.  The original development team has mostly left the company at this point.  Original GW2 had a certain design philosophy - albeit a bit rough around the edges - and that was followed through core.  Each profession had strengths and weaknesses; each weapon had strengths and weaknesses; each skill type had strengths and weaknesses.  That style meant that PvP had to be team-focused.  That style worked because the game was built around it, and it was different from most other RPGs.  For HoT and onward, new developers took the reins, and they tried to impose a more flashy, heroic style on top of the existing system - something similar to many other RPGs.  Lots of powerful abilities, combos, etc.  But the underlying system doesn't support that style.  This discontinuity is why it's so hard to address any PvP issues.

 

To use an example, in the original game, elite skills like Lich Form were supposed to be a very powerful ability.  It was meant to change the tide of battle.  But the long cooldown, along with some degree of counters (dance around a pole or run away) made it a strategic decision.  If you use the elite skill now when you could barely win without it, you won't have it for later when it would turn the tide.  But on the other hand, winning faster frees up teammates to fight elsewhere.  Now abilities, even elites, have much shorter cooldowns, which removes that level of decision making.

 

To address a couple points:

Lack of Developers:

You don't need many PvP developers.  A PvP developer is one responsible for the PvP systems: rating, matchmaking, reward systems, game modes, etc.  For game modes, their role is limited to mock-ups of a map (where to obstacles and objectives go) and ensuring victory, defeat, etc. triggers work.  Content developers and artists make the level look pretty.  The skills team designs and modifies class abilities.

Money:

Income in a working system shouldn't be an issue.  PvP players may not spend as much, but they also don't cost as much; they don't require new story content every few months which is consumed in a week.  The problem GW2 faces is that the system doesn't work; to make it work would require many developers and testers for many months to redesign half the game.

Dead Game?:

Are you having fun?  If no, then why not? 

• Is combat not fun? 
• Is combat too repetitive? 
• Do you feel that your efforts have no value?
• Lack of community or social aspect?

How you answer - and think about it for a few minutes - reveals where the problems truly lie.

A common suggestion is for new game modes.  But will this really fix anything?  Does it fit the gameplay better? Offer more replay-ability?  Or will it be a "new toy" that will lose its appeal after a few weeks?  Keep in mind that many PvP games have thrived on the same formula and maps for years.

 

 

For myself, I don't enjoy the current gameplay.  And I've come to accept that the game I enjoyed in 2012 will never return and that I should move on.

[fluffypaws.2860]

They need to spend some real money and invest in the game mode.

 

Without it we are all paddling in shallow water.