Ranger needs traits to fight the reflections creep in game.

[anduriell.6280]

The amount of reflections and projectile hate in game has suffered a massive powercreep during the last years. Slowly but it has come to the point a ranger can not deal any consistent damage even against small groups if there is an auramancer, Firebrand or scrapper in the group. 

 

Most of the weapons with the exception of Greatsword  (although it used to have a projectile as well), Sword and dagger mainhand (who is using that one thou..)  have some sort of projectile attack, usually the most useful and damaging attack. As such it does not make sense for the ranger to be the class with less access to unblockables or countermeasures against projectile hate. Also it makes the class so painful to play and hated at the same time in competitive. 

 

I propose as following: 

Lead the Wind 

Your longbow and harpoon-gun skills pierce and recharge faster. When you strike a foe with a projectile combo, gain Unblockable (no iCD)  . Projectiles have a greater chance of become Combo Finisher. 

Light on your Feet

Short bow skills splinters around your target and gain recharge reduction. Projectiles can not be reflected and are destroyed instead. 

 

It is obvious what are the changes aimed at, the important point here is both are complementary of each other. If the ranger decides to go a full dps route with no survival/sustain then it should have greater access to land it's attacks and not be punished for the increasing projectile hate. 

 

The fact the ranger needs first to hit with  a projectile combo should balance the unblockable access. If it can not hit a target because it is already blocking then the unblockable will not trigger. Greater chance to become a combo finisher means greater than the current 20% so it is more reliable with normal Auto Attacks.   

 

The second trait will make Shortbow more reliable without buffing it's 1v1 capabilities. If projectiles are destroyed it will still trigger the AoE splinters which should do some minor damage. 

To balance the splinters i would do as following: 

 

• Current  from behind or from the side should become baseline to the shortbow with some caveats. The baseline damage is simply extremely lackluster for a 900 range weapon with no utility. Only exception would be Concussion Shot, which it would only Daze and would lose the stun from behind. 

 

• Splinters around the target should apply the current baseline conditions and reduced damage around the target up to 5 enemies in a small radius ( though bigger than 120, i would suggest something like 240 ) Exception would be Concussion Shot which will apply a 50% reduced daze duration. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by anduriell.6280
formatting

[TheBravery.9615]

no, reflection and projectile hate needs to be nerfed. It's totally unreasonable to have such skills block infinite projectiles.

[anduriell.6280]

I thought about that solution but it would not be any good, it would totally destroy the blocking and reflection in WvW where the blocks do not scale the same as the unblockables. 

 

It would not matter how many stacks you put in, any amount of players would make those reflections useless. That's why i suggest this instead, more complex solution but it does not destroy build variety. 

 

[bigo.9037]

On 5/30/2021 at 4:09 AM, anduriell.6280 said:

I thought about that solution but it would not be any good, it would totally destroy the blocking and reflection in WvW where the blocks do not scale the same as the unblockables. 

 

It would not matter how many stacks you put in, any amount of players would make those reflections useless. That's why i suggest this instead, more complex solution but it does not destroy build variety. 

 

I think to actually fix this, they need to split reflect and blocks. Currently, If I’m not mistaken, unblockable is the only way to go through reflects. I DON’T think ranger needs a way to go through blocks from shield skill on warrior for example, but only the reflects and “projectile blocks”. Otherwise, what you have suggested is a very nice idea. But personally I’d rather have the power variant show up in skirmishing, but that probably wouldn’t fit thematically as well as MM and I’m just nitpicking lol

Edited June 1, 2021 by bigo.9037

[Abyssisis.3971]

Lets deal with projectile hate the same way anet deal with nerfing rangers, double nerfs them at the same time,

Firstly,  reflects and blocks need to reflect/block x amount of projectiles to bring them in line with way unblockables work.

 

Secondly, we buff all ranger’s projectile skills, longbow, shortbow and axe.
 

done the anet way… lol

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Unblockable was fine before they started removing it from everything--the recent changes to WH / Clarion Bond come to mind as the most egregious example.  

 

Also, that change to SB is so rooted around combating Ancient Seeds it isn't even funny lol.  Trust me, the problem you are facing with SB isn't Ancient Seeds and buffing it like that to spread bleeds to 5 people in splinters is definitely not a path you want to go down.  

 

Also if you gain unblockable on LB everytime you projectile combo you are just buffing the ever loving hell outta SB because a LOT of them run smokescale and have arguably the best field in the game at disposal at all times.  So you'd literally get unblockable blinds at 12-1500 range lol.  This isn't counting all the other ideas--have a E. Wyvern do a knockdown (which creates a field) and you have both hard CC and unblockable if they try to mash buttons on recover.  

 

Anyway, for bows, the fix seems simple to me, for SB just make crippling shot do something useful and add unblockable to it.  For LB, making hunter's shot unblockable is enough--still have to time it as it is so easy to LoS or dodge it.  Not sure what to do with MH axe really as I personally don't find unblockable a big deal on it as you aren't missing an escape / burst (LB #2 or #3) or a CC (SB #5) due to it.  

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 5/30/2021 at 5:03 AM, TheBravery.9615 said:

no, reflection and projectile hate needs to be nerfed. It's totally unreasonable to have such skills block infinite projectiles.

 

I agree.

 

The problem is too much anti-projectile fields in general.

 

Anti-projectile needs to be nerfed, rather than trying to buff Ranger with unblockables.

[The Boz.2038]

"Retaliation feels bad, and is difficult to balance around, so we'll change it entirely. Reflection is good, though."
-ANet, for some reason.

[Dami.5046]

get rid of it and just make it reflect any damage. (lol) 

[DeceiverX.8361]

No.  Well-timed negation is a critical part of skilled play.

 

Long-duration AoE fields that negate incoming ranged damage are a much bigger issue for rangers.

 

The problem is chicken-egg like many in WvW contexts.  It can't be just a single change to fix them.

People need reflect/projectile destruction/block spam because longbow when unanswered is an amazing kit for pre-engagement in large scale due to its crazy modern damage/ stealth, cleaving CC, chained AoE damage, and soulbeast's mobility.  But with so much access to these effects, the ranger is stuck needing its skills and range to be more potent knowing so much will get negated, and has a very low skill floor on many builds as a consequence.

 

Similarly, like thief, the design goals seem to favor making ranger more self-sufficient at the expense of its group potency.  Pretty much for the past five years or so the class has been in contention with the top 2/top 3 roaming spots depending on the patch.  The last thing anyone wants is for the class to become as all-powerful as guardian with such a high skill floor and so much 1v1 prowess.

 

So what you need is:

- AoE projectile negation reduced heavily.

- Longbow damage debuff inverted; more damage close up, less damage at range, and have it apply to all such skills.   PBS->RF then won't just auto-kill a backline DPS ele casting MS for example (something important to consider is playability of other classes when justifying buffs), which with OWP currently, Barrage mirrors in damage with a larger effect radius.  This also enables rangers to actually charge with the blob and promotes a style where they play as part of the group to affect the target cap, which is the single most important part of group play/damage negation in WvW squads, and a big reason why large groups explicitly ignore pug rangers, due to their tendency to camp in the back staying safe.  People who sit back and plink or DPS opposing backline, even unreflected, are actively hurting their own side by not sharing incoming damage via target capping.  If your group wipes regardless, it's a loss, and they won't frontline for you.

- Other classes needing tweaking to quell overperformance in areas the class is intended to specialize in, mostly via stat scaling on heal effects to let healing druid do its thing, though this needs close monitoring to prevent a boring heal-based/defensive meta where nobody dies akin to PoF launch scourge/FB combo.

- Ancient Seeds needs to be removed and replaced with something that isn't super binary where it's either absolutely broken or totally useless.

 

Like all things WvW, it's multifaceted, deeply engrained in profession design flaws (pets are ignored on the above since they improved damage options for the class unlike the days of old), and generally so much intertwines with the other professions in their static meta that no single change will fix things without making something else busted, or simply otherwise have no impact.

Edited June 10, 2021 by DeceiverX.8361

[Gotejjeken.1267]

37 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

No.  Well-timed negation is a critical part of skilled play.

 

Long-duration AoE fields that negate incoming ranged damage are a much bigger issue for rangers.

 

The problem is chicken-egg like many in WvW contexts.  It can't be just a single change to fix them.

People need reflect/projectile destruction/block spam because longbow when unanswered is an amazing kit for pre-engagement in large scale due to its crazy modern damage/ stealth, cleaving CC, chained AoE damage, and soulbeast's mobility.  But with so much access to these effects, the ranger is stuck needing its skills and range to be more potent knowing so much will get negated, and has a very low skill floor on many builds as a consequence.

 

Similarly, like thief, the design goals seem to favor making ranger more self-sufficient at the expense of its group potency.  Pretty much for the past five years or so the class has been in contention with the top 2/top 3 roaming spots depending on the patch.  The last thing anyone wants is for the class to become as all-powerful as guardian with such a high skill floor and so much 1v1 prowess.

 

So what you need is:

- AoE projectile negation reduced heavily.

- Longbow damage debuff inverted; more damage close up, less damage at range, and have it apply to all such skills.   PBS->RF then won't just auto-kill a backline DPS ele casting MS for example (something important to consider is playability of other classes when justifying buffs), which with OWP currently, Barrage mirrors in damage with a larger effect radius.  This also enables rangers to actually charge with the blob and promotes a style where they play as part of the group to affect the target cap, which is the single most important part of group play/damage negation in WvW squads, and a big reason why large groups explicitly ignore pug rangers, due to their tendency to camp in the back staying safe.  People who sit back and plink or DPS opposing backline, even unreflected, are actively hurting their own side by not sharing incoming damage via target capping.  If your group wipes regardless, it's a loss, and they won't frontline for you.

- Other classes needing tweaking to quell overperformance in areas the class is intended to specialize in, mostly via stat scaling on heal effects to let healing druid do its thing, though this needs close monitoring to prevent a boring heal-based/defensive meta where nobody dies akin to PoF launch scourge/FB combo.

- Ancient Seeds needs to be removed and replaced with something that isn't super binary where it's either absolutely broken or totally useless.

 

Like all things WvW, it's multifaceted, deeply engrained in profession design flaws (pets are ignored on the above since they improved damage options for the class unlike the days of old), and generally so much intertwines with the other professions in their static meta that no single change will fix things without making something else busted, or simply otherwise have no impact.

 

Wait, you want all these nonsensical changes because of some terribad backline Elementalist casting meteor shower? This is why we can't have nice things.

 

I swear, I don't know what scares awful players more, ancient seeds or longbow.  I can tell you good players don't care about either of these things and they don't do anything outside of picking off stragglers.  I wonder if it's the stragglers that always come to the forums?

 

I mean, in the past day while roaming I've fought a berserker who stayed in my immobs for all of 1/4 of a second, a scrapper who is literally immune to the immobs and on top throws up projectile blocks with superspeed, and if that goes wrong just goes into mini-mode and becomes immune to literally everything, and a reaper who if I dare pull out LB would just port to me and destroy.  

 

Anyway, the 'inverted damage' on LB is the best--sure let's not fix shortbow (which is meant to be close range and also suffers from projectile blocking issues), let's essentially make longbow a melee weapon (lol) because people can't seem to find the dodge key or a line of sight.  Trust me, you don't need inverted anything, if you are squishy I'm killing you regardless with GS.  Unless you want to 'invert' that too and I could throw it again, would be great.  

 

Also, are you saying pets improve damage options more than past years? I hope not or you need to go read some patch notes, it's walls of text like this that got pets neutered to window pane licking CC devices.  In the 'days of old' you'd be dead in about 30 seconds while standing on a wall from a stealth attack via jaguar.  So I think what you really mean is 'pets are ignored above because they suck so much I have nothing to complain about' 😂

 

 

[anduriell.6280]

This is my opinion of course but i think the Longbow is a very smart design. It has a big range but it has a drawback rewarding the player to stay at range.

 

Reversing that it would make the weapon to have even a lower ceiling it has already and thus making the class gameplay even dumber. 

 

If anything i would even exarcebate the "trait" of that weapon more, so the range gameloop would work the same as it does for Long Range Shot for Rapid Fire, right now the range does not impact the damage and it should do less the closer it is to the target and more then further is the objective. 

While Hunter's Shot should work similar to Point-Blank Shot, the closer it is to the target the better the secondary effects. 

 

So yes it would make the weapon a bit more complicated to use but it would make the weapon also more fun and the skill ceiling higher. All ranger weapons should follow as similar design so the class can get a bit more depth. We have very good desings with Longbow as ranged and Greatsword as melee. 

 

Any other suggestion here i can't agree. There is a reason for the reflection creep as part of the gameplay flow. However the ranger class is unfairly punished by this as it has less access to unblockables than any other class having most  of his weapon skills as projectiles. Also the lacks of blocks and immunities makes the class not be able to stay in melee all the time in oposition to a guard, revenant or warrior. 

 

As such i though about this solution. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Za Shaloc.3908]

IMO Signet of the Hunt was way overnerfed when it was reduced to 6 hits rather than a flat amount of time. Considering the difference in damage pattern when compared to something like a Gunflame Berserker, it really limits its impact. It should be increased to something like 10-12 hits instead. 

[anduriell.6280]

Yes the CD (40s) compared to the effects provided (25% speed passive, 6 unblock active) does not feel  not  good. 

 

Also the unblockable stack mechanic itself it does not work well with ranger in general, ranger class delivers damage using multiple/very fast attacks in oposition to 1 big hit. 

 

So piercing consuming 1 stack by target (so piercing will consume up to 5 stacks by attack) doesn't help as much as it would do in Gunflame warrior. 

 

So yes, unblockable stacks was a massive nerf to the ranger offensive capabilities. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by anduriell.6280
smol correction

[Arheundel.6451]

All of you should remember that sic'em builds are allowed to exist because there is counterplay to it, but the build itself not only is unhealthy but also incentivize players to camp LB and never learn the class. A sic'em build with signet of the hunt is very situational but useful in removing priority targets including FB and scrappers.

 

Now what I see players doing is pumping sic'em first thing when they see an enemy, rather than wait for the right opportunity, people just pewpew on sight , they don't time the defenses on the enemy and most don't even bother to equip SoH.

 

Now I am for buffing Signet of the Hunt , like reduce CD to 25s and increase hit number to 12, a change that would benefit the sniper gameplay looking for the right opportunity to strike and that's how ranger sniper is played in other games, that's healthy gameplay, huge burst during a small timeframe with opportune counterplay.

 

I assume people here are not looking for "press 2 from 1500 range arcade mode" gameplay , that kind of gameplay should be not promoted and instead correctly punished.

 

This is what I run http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POgAMFlRwAZesMmJWsX7vbA-w full glass stats and I 2 shot people of all builds during zerg or small fights, targeting critical targets like FB, scrappers, tempest support , reapers and scourges...hiding in the back pressuring on the right...striking quickly on the left, while remaining unnoticed, I use the build even during zerg fights, surfing zergs as they clash then dropping a barrage where I see bags..works like a charm

[bigo.9037]

18 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

All of you should remember that sic'em builds are allowed to exist because there is counterplay to it, but the build itself not only is unhealthy but also incentivize players to camp LB and never learn the class. A sic'em build with signet of the hunt is very situational but useful in removing priority targets including FB and scrappers.

 

Now what I see players doing is pumping sic'em first thing when they see an enemy, rather than wait for the right opportunity, people just pewpew on sight , they don't time the defenses on the enemy and most don't even bother to equip SoH.

 

Now I am for buffing Signet of the Hunt , like reduce CD to 25s and increase hit number to 12, a change that would benefit the sniper gameplay looking for the right opportunity to strike and that's how ranger sniper is played in other games, that's healthy gameplay, huge burst during a small timeframe with opportune counterplay.

 

I assume people here are not looking for "press 2 from 1500 range arcade mode" gameplay , that kind of gameplay should be not promoted and instead correctly punished.

 

This is what I run http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POgAMFlRwAZesMmJWsX7vbA-w full glass stats and I 2 shot people of all builds during zerg or small fights, targeting critical targets like FB, scrappers, tempest support , reapers and scourges...hiding in the back pressuring on the right...striking quickly on the left, while remaining unnoticed, I use the build even during zerg fights, surfing zergs as they clash then dropping a barrage where I see bags..works like a charm

Only proper ranger players use skirmishing and no dolyak stance 😌

[bigo.9037]

5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

This is my opinion of course but i think the Longbow is a very smart design. It has a big range but it has a drawback rewarding the player to stay at range.

 

Reversing that it would make the weapon to have even a lower ceiling it has already and thus making the class gameplay even dumber. 

 

If anything i would even exarcebate the "trait" of that weapon more, so the range gameloop would work the same as it does for Long Range Shot for Rapid Fire, right now the range does not impact the damage and it should do less the closer it is to the target and more then further is the objective. 

While Hunter's Shot should work similar to Point-Blank Shot, the closer it is to the target the better the secondary effects. 

 

So yes it would make the weapon a bit more complicated to use but it would make the weapon also more fun and the skill ceiling higher. All ranger weapons should follow as similar design so the class can get a bit more depth. We have very good desings with Longbow as ranged and Greatsword as melee. 

 

Any other suggestion here i can't agree. There is a reason for the reflection creep as part of the gameplay flow. However the ranger class is unfairly punished by this as it has less access to unblockables than any other class having most  of his weapon skills as projectiles. Also the lacks of blocks and immunities makes the class not be able to stay in melee all the time in oposition to a guard, revenant or warrior. 

 

As such i though about this solution. 

Your changes would not increase skill ceiling, they would lower the floor. Which is a good thing, there are too many noobs playing pewpew. I do believe it is a bit too easy to use honestly. Same with boonbeast. It doesnt take long for “decent” players to perform very well on a boonbeast, much too close to more skilled players. Regular soulbeast without WS is more skill based. And filters out the decent from the good. 

[Arheundel.6451]

10 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

Only proper ranger players use skirmishing and no dolyak stance 😌

That build is only for hit and run gameplay, it's an "all or nothing" build and it works as far as my experience goes, a 1hit wonder spec where you prob die if caught by any other spec. I experienced lower dmg with MM variant , personal preference, I do get my kills so the build works great as far as I seen it

Edited June 10, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

That build is only for hit and run gameplay, it's an "all or nothing" build and it works as far as my experience goes, a 1hit wonder spec where you prob die if caught by any other spec. I experienced lower dmg with MM variant , personal preference, I do get my kills so the build works great as far as I seen it

 

Builds tweaks / discussion aside, this captures the essence I think. 

 

Essentially for us rangers to do the damage people complain about we cannot run any defensive traitline (WS/NM).  If we do run WS/NM then the sustain of practically any other spec is equal or better so nothing is accomplished.  

 

So there IS skill play in 'pew pew'ing' from range, because you have to know positioning very, very well or you are useless. 

 

The problem is even if you have the best positioning in the world there is that one scrapper or guardian firing off every defensive stat in the game and running right by without a care in the world.  Then (this is a PUG problem) your group goes chasing them and none of them have the damage to take out the sustain so you get nothing done.  

[bigo.9037]

9 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

That build is only for hit and run gameplay, it's an "all or nothing" build and it works as far as my experience goes, a 1hit wonder spec where you prob die if caught by any other spec. I experienced lower dmg with MM variant , personal preference, I do get my kills so the build works great as far as I seen it

Hit and run , if it takes skill, is a very valid build imo. I run something very similar, but since i only roam solo or 2vX 99% of the time, i run QZ+ LR and sicem So I have slightly more wiggle room. QZ also functions as a really good offensive skill , especially in melee on GS. 
 

[Arheundel.6451]

11 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Builds tweaks / discussion aside, this captures the essence I think. 

 

Essentially for us rangers to do the damage people complain about we cannot run any defensive traitline (WS/NM).  If we do run WS/NM then the sustain of practically any other spec is equal or better so nothing is accomplished.  

 

So there IS skill play in 'pew pew'ing' from range, because you have to know positioning very, very well or you are useless. 

 

The problem is even if you have the best positioning in the world there is that one scrapper or guardian firing off every defensive stat in the game and running right by without a care in the world.  Then (this is a PUG problem) your group goes chasing them and none of them have the damage to take out the sustain so you get nothing done.  

People's grievance is that these days they cannot duel that well with longbow and I can agree with them, still I wouldn't change anything about current state of LB , at most we need buffs to Signet of Hunt as I have suggested already, reduce CD to 25-30s and replace the passive...ranger really doesn't need passive movement speed, especially on sb. Other than that I am happy with the current state of sic'em build, we can all remember when sb had access to unblockable adept trait, it was a tad broken.

 

We should focus on what needs help on ranger: shortbow - dagger main hand

[Arheundel.6451]

14 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

Hit and run , if it takes skill, is a very valid build imo. I run something very similar, but since i only roam solo or 2vX 99% of the time, i run QZ+ LR and sicem So I have slightly more wiggle room. QZ also functions as a really good offensive skill , especially in melee on GS. 
 

QZ+sic'em+ one wolf can ruin the day for many people

[Zyreva.1078]

12 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

We should focus on what needs help on ranger: shortbow - dagger main hand

Shortbow is pretty good. MH dagger and torch could use some help in PvP/WvW (and axe 4, axe 5 is very strong tho), other weapons are all fine and don't need buffs.

[bigo.9037]

30 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Shortbow is pretty good. MH dagger and torch could use some help in PvP/WvW (and axe 4, axe 5 is very strong tho), other weapons are all fine and don't need buffs.

Axe 4 radius too small. Shortbow is not good imo. Very lackluster. (Wvw at least) axe 2 sucks, worse than AA.  Sword is meh, dagger OH is meh. 

[Zyreva.1078]

Well, i'm using all those weapons (except mh dagger) for solo roaming and small scale grp fights on a regular basis, and they all work great, 1vs1 as well as outnumbered fights alike. Just gotta know how to build arround them (broken cele helps a lot with that 😉).

Edited June 10, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907