Would you like to gain the ability to use Utility talents in the Elite slot?

[Aodlop.1907]

Pwetty much what the title says. UwU

[Tzarakiel.7490]

I would like a full set of healing and elite skills for all utility types. Where's my elementalist's elite signet or my warrior's healing banner?

Edited May 31, 2021 by Tzarakiel.7490

[Howluffu.7259]

18 minutes ago, Tzarakiel.7490 said:

I would like a full set of healing and elite skills for all utility types. Where's my elementalist's elite signet or my warrior's healing banner?

Tbh I want ele elite signet and to be a fully res like guardians or warrior's elite banner. I felt underwhelmed by those powerful res skills in 2v2. What I'm going to do with a 5% res signet Anet????? Even mirage was better at ressing.

Edited May 31, 2021 by DarkEmiLupus.2876

[SoulGuardian.6203]

17 minutes ago, Tzarakiel.7490 said:

I would like a full set of healing and elite skills for all utility types. Where's my elementalist's elite signet or my warrior's healing banner?

This right here.

I can't be 100% accurate on what elite utility skills are missing, but I'm quite sure the majority of classes need one.

I'm trying hard to remember, but it's been a while.

 

[Aodlop.1907]

This request has been overwhelmingly approved by the community every time it's been brought up. I don't get why they're so stubborn about it. There are only a few elite skills to choose from, and while some can be fun, some professions are stuck with either underwhelming or unfun "choices". 

[kharmin.7683]

Overwhelmingly approved by the community?  Please cite your source for that claim.  With provable facts.

[Cyninja.2954]

48 minutes ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

This request has been overwhelmingly approved by the community every time it's been brought up. I don't get why they're so stubborn about it. There are only a few elite skills to choose from, and while some can be fun, some professions are stuck with either underwhelming or unfun "choices". 

 

Not going to comment on your "overwhelmingly approved" comment, I am sure you would have provided adequate citation for it if you thought it true.

 

There is value in choice, even if you do not like it. Limiting choice can be part of this equation.

 

The game is balanced around 3 utility skills, not 4. If elite skills were vastly more powerful, similar to how racial skills are far weaker than most alternatives, there would be no issue. Alas elite skills they are not, at least not always, and as such it would create more of a headache to balance around.

 

Which leads to the question: why stop at the elite skill? Why not remove the healing skill too? Just make it a blank 5 slot canvas, remove all restrictions and let players just select freely between any skill they want. Same reasoning applies here: it would be even worse to balance, it would create even more opportunity for players to mess up builds and ultimately while it opens up more build possibilities, it removes part of the framework and design elements.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Aodlop.1907]

31 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

why stop at the elite skill? Why not remove the healing skill too?

Because every single healing skill in the game has something in common: they heal. They have one clear purpose.

Within a single profession, elite skills take many forms and have varied purposes and uses however. That gap widens if we compare all classes. That's because Elite talents are just normal talents: they do different things, except there are fewer of them and sometimes they're all either boring or useless. 

As the poll suggests, most players would rather deal with the consequences of whatever "balance issues" this change would cause than be stuck with very limited options for their elite slot.

[mungozen.2379]

I think this is an interesting design space to work within and would like to see how this additional flexibility would work out.

I didn't know until looking it up that all professions have 3 base Elite Skills (plus one for each eSpec).  Having 4 options for your Elite skill seems very narrow, and although there are some good elite skills, I agree, more flexibility would be a good change.

 

When looking at the general Utility Slot Skills, are there really any combination of 4 on a class that are better than 3+ Elite?

 

I just do not see anything game breaking about a change like this and would be fine if it happened.  At the same time, I also do not see a change like this having much of a meaningful impact outside of a handful of specific circumstances.

[Astralporing.1957]

Ironically, the most often brought up counterargument (already showing in this thread, btw) has always been "it would be too OP". Which (coupled with the fact how often this suggestion is being brought forward) just shows how bad the supposedly "elite" skills are.

 

Personally, though, i'd rather see elite skills being made more useful (and the elite skills some classes are lacking - like i.e. necromancer elite well - being introduced).

[Malitias.8453]

To be honest I'd just like to have more useful/competitive elite skills. Best case scenario you can choose between 2 elite-skills, one of those coming from the elite spec.

[Sigmoid.7082]

It's amazing the sweeping conclusions people can come to from , at time of posting , 26(21/5) votes.

 

Doesn't feel like "most players" or "overwhelmingly approved" to me.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082

[Cyninja.2954]

7 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Because every single healing skill in the game has something in common: they heal. They have one clear purpose.

That is just an arbitrary distinction you are bringing forth, especially since HoT and PoF elite specializations.

 

There are a ton of utility skills which mirror healing skills, while healing skills mirror utility skills in functionality.

 

Quote

Within a single profession, elite skills take many forms and have varied purposes and uses however. That gap widens if we compare all classes. That's because Elite talents are just normal talents: they do different things, except there are fewer of them and sometimes they're all either boring or useless. 

First off, I disagree that elite skills are normal talents. While they certainly are not always "elite" in how powerful they are, most of them are very build or specialization defining. This has lost some significance with the introduction of elite specializations, where the entire specialization has a stronger tie to a specific theme, but it still remains valid.

 

Even if it were true, we can disagree on this obviously, all your argument does facilitate is that elite skills need to be improved, not removed.

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As the poll suggests, most players would rather deal with the consequences of whatever "balance issues" this change would cause than be stuck with very limited options for their elite slot.

Polls on a forum, especially in this sample size, are no proof for anything. Most players are rather bad at considering implications of changes or long-term planing. Source?: the vast inability of a huge part of this player base to create and succeed with their own builds at even superficial easy content.

 

Having designated slots for specific skills, thus forcing players to build within those limitations, allows a limited amount of control developer wise on what a class build is supposed to have. For example: if the utility skill slots were also restricted for example in 1 damage utility, 1 boon utility and 1 crowd control utility (distributing existing utility skills into either of the 3 areas making them exclusive to each other), the quality of builds players came up with would drastically improve, at the cost of build freedom.

 

This idea falls into the same area as the recurring demand to have weapon types unlocked beyond elite specializations. A just as asinine idea which a lot of players favor because they do not spend more than 2 minutes on how this change would affect them.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[joneirikb.7506]

In short I would like to be able to put a normal utility in elite slot 0. but that is mostly because there are a lot of elite skills that just doesn't feel interesting or up to par. In GW1 you where limited to a single Elite skill on your 8 slot skill bar, because they where actually stronger than other skills, in GW2 the elite skills often times feels weaker because of various combinations of underwhelming effects, long cooldowns, or other factors.

 

So this could be solved in another way, which is to make the elite skills feel worthy of their own slots. As in right now, I frequently see people just using whatever elite skill feels the most like a util skill (in effect and cd, like the guardian shout elite).

 

But tbh, they've never shown any interest in trying to make the elite's feel impactful, so I don't see it ever changing. So by that aspect, making you able to slot in a util skill in slot 0 would in some cases feel like you actually get something useful in that slot. (Depending on class/build etc).

[Quench.7091]

If people feel like that they should be able to replace an elite skill with a utility skill, then the elite skills aren't good enough or the utility skills are too powerful. Core engineers would probably replace their elite slot with Elixir S or something.

[Tyncale.1629]

I am a button masher, and the Elite skills usually have a very long cool down which does not sit well with my buttonmashing. 

 

I am not joking here, I always use the Elite skill that has the shortest cooldown. Need to click that stuff. 

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

First off, I disagree that elite skills are normal talents. While they certainly are not always "elite" in how powerful they are, most of them are very build or specialization defining.

While for the most part that was true of elite skills in GW1, in GW2 it's not really so. Most elite skills are chosen on the basis of whether they offer anything of use to the build in question (and quite often you end up with only one choice, that is only barely satisfactory). Build defining elite skills? Most classes don't have even one. In fact, offhand i can't think of even a single elite that at the moment i would call that way.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

 

 

One example is that elementalists could have Energy Boon as an elite skill.

Necros could have the Dervish Avatars of The Gods.

Mesmers could have some sort of Spell Breaker.

Guardians could inherit either monk's Ray of Judgement, or Paragon Elite Chant or Shouts.

So on so forth.

Edited June 1, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Astralporing.1957]

You misunderstood me. I was talking about strength and usefulness of current elite skills, not about thematics. At this moment none of the currently existing elite skills are, in my opinion, worthy of being called "build defining", because even when they compliment their builds well, it's just that. They are not more important to said build that any of the utility skills (or, often, heal skill). And in many cases they're not even good for that - they are just something picked because it was the least useless.

Notice that while it's a state that practically exists since game launch, there were some notable exceptions to this at some points in history (with FGS being probably most visible example). It's just that all such cases exist in past history, not in the present - and always end up getting nerfed.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

While for the most part that was true of elite skills in GW1, in GW2 it's not really so. Most elite skills are chosen on the basis of whether they offer anything of use to the build in question (and quite often you end up with only one choice, that is only barely satisfactory). Build defining elite skills? Most classes don't have even one. In fact, offhand i can't think of even a single elite that at the moment i would call that way.

That has far more to do with elite specializations taking over this role while elite skills were toned down over time, than elite skills being not defining. They are less build defining today than before, agreed. In part because the elite mechanic conveys so much more of a role and feel change than 1 unique skill can (or should).

 

Today you chose an elite specialization first based on what you want to achieve in game, then you select everything else according to that goal. Meanwhile elite skills were changed and reworked over time on nearly all classes to fit their new role of major utility and/or class skill. When taking ALL game modes into account, and not just PvE and it's heavy favoritism towards pure dps, many succeed at this role.

 

Even with elite skills having been de-facto removed as build defining (and since GW1 keeps getting brought up, let's remember how many absolutely garbage elite skill were present in that game with many useful/powerful ones being just more powerful versions of a regular skill), that does not warrant their removal. As mentioned, the separation also full-fills a goal of ensuring both not 4 utility skills are made available as well as players being forced to use an elite skill, which while I am sure many believe is not needed, is just as important as forcing players to take a heal skill.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Tails.9372]

15 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Personally, though, i'd rather see elite skills being made more useful (and the elite skills some classes are lacking - like i.e. necromancer elite well - being introduced).

 

Pretty much this, I'd love to see an elite signet for thieves and thieves guild should work more like necro / rune summons.

[Aodlop.1907]

8 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

For example: if the utility skill slots were also restricted for example in 1 damage utility, 1 boon utility and 1 crowd control utility, the quality of builds players came up with would drastically improve, at the cost of build freedom.

And yet nobody, not even you, is asking for this because that would NOT result in players having more fun with the game. That's the issue here. It's not a discussion about efficiency and how to buff elite skills. It's about giving players a choice.

For an MMO, GW2 already has a very small numbers of abilities. We're probably THE MMO with the least freedom in our build, with weapon-locked abilities (especially true for 2H weapons), 1 talent locked for heals and 1 locked for elite skills.

We can only customize 3 slots, and since that number is so small, we're going to feel way more guilty if we pick a suboptimal but fun talent precisely because we have so little to work with in the first place.

Allowing players to pick a regular talent in the Elite slot can only improve the player experience. I'm convinced even the minority who oppose it would enjoy it in the long run after its implementation. 

[Cyninja.2954]

15 minutes ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

And yet nobody, not even you, is asking for this because that would NOT result in players having more fun with the game.

Define fun. I would absolutely be in favor of this change if it meant reducing the gap between non-performing (essentially useless builds) and top end builds, because the net benefit would be that a more diverse set of content could be implemented, instead of this ultra easy mode 0 skill garbage which we are getting right now.

 

For example, if there was a dedicated utility slot for cc skills, this would fundamentally change how encounter design could be done, knowing that each player would have a cc skill available. At the same time it would also allow for far better implementation of mechanics which teach players to make use of that slot. That could result in far better content while at the same time costing build freedom.

Quote

That's the issue here. It's not a discussion about efficiency and how to buff elite skills. It's about giving players a choice.

and I am saying your argument can lead to many different approaches of solution. Each with benefits and detriments.

Quote

For an MMO, GW2 already has a very small numbers of abilities. We're probably THE MMO with the least freedom in our build, with weapon-locked abilities (especially true for 2H weapons), 1 talent locked for heals and 1 locked for elite skills.

Please actually play some of the other MMORPGs on the market. This statement is uninformed at best, strait up idiotic at worst.

 

The lack of "freedom" as far as skills go in this game is dwarfing all other MMORPGs on the market with all the "freedom" in build variety in other areas (from gear, to upgrades, to trait lines, to specializations all the way to individual traits).

 

The issue here in fact is GW2 has the BIGGEST freedom among all MMORPGs in the market in realtion to building and designing a character, the skills are on the bar are only a tiny factor here. Which unfortunately also leads to the huge issues in under-performing builds this game has.

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We can only customize 3 slots, and since that number is so small, we're going to feel way more guilty if we pick a suboptimal but fun talent precisely because we have so little to work with in the first place.

Allowing players to pick a regular talent in the Elite slot can only improve the player experience. I'm convinced even the minority who oppose it would enjoy it in the long run after its implementation. 

or they simply disagree because they put emphasis and value on other areas of this games skill system. You seem to favor a very open ended free-form system which would mean even more dependence on individual player ability to build and design within that system.

 

Others might value the limitations in place because of the value they give in relation to choice and the barrier they create (though limited they might be) in preventing players create even worse builds than they do now.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Aodlop.1907]

5 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

For example, if there was a dedicated utility slot for cc skills, this would fundamentally change how encounter design could be done, knowing that each player would have a cc skill available.

What this would lead to is a complete homogenization of class design and every profession feeling the same, doing the same thing, only with different visual effects. The game would become boring rather quickly.

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Which unfortunately also leads to the huge issues in under-performing builds this game has.

Let people under-perform. As long as they're having fun with their under-performing build, that's fine. If THEY become bothered by how under-perferming they are, they'll pick more meta options on their own and that's the end of it.

You know what's one of the most performing talents for Power reaper in PvE? Signet of spite. Because it's a passive that increases your power. How bland, how lame. You'd probably deleted every other talent in the game so people could only pick this one since it results in a net increase in DPS and performance - well I'm glad I can ditch it and pick a talent that's fun to use instead.

 

12 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

in preventing players create even worse builds than they do now.

If people create awful builds, they're most likely casual having casual fun in the game. Pick the META builds for yourself, find like-minded people to raid with, and leave those people be.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

The underlying issue is that Elite Skills in GW2 are a mess.  Some are virtually useless, others less so, others actually are useful.   Ranger Entangle comes to mind, as does Rebound.  In short, here is no consistency save that Elite Skills are for the most part, not elite. Now, while Guild Wars Elite Skills also varied, for most builds that were in general use, the Elite Skill was the centerpiece, or at least a critical part of the game-play for that build --at least until the introduction of the EotN PvE skills, some of which broke the PvE game pretty badly.  In GW2, the apple fell very far from that tree.  The only thing about most, if not all, of the Elite Skills is the cooldown, which would be where it should be if the skills were truly build-defining or game-changing.

 

Whether allowing utilities to be used in the Elite Skill slot is a solution or not, it seems like the underlying issue would be worth fixing.  Whether ANet would do so, whether they have the will or means to do so, or if they even see this as an issue remains to be seen.