Staff Mirage still needs a nerfby a significant amount, Dueling Illusions Axe/Torch+Pistol Mirage is supposed to be the dps class right but there's no way it can compete.

[mordefelix.5826]

35 minutes ago, hmmz.4186 said:

what I don't understand is if mirage is supposed to be so good why no sites like discretize feature it?

It takes a while for them to update things to be honest. SC hasn’t updated for classes either. It literally can takes a month+ for this to happen and usually does take that long or longer. I mean look at the benches they’re all clearly outdated right now. But its like extremely clear that mirage is that good. I mean check my log here lmao. https://dps.report/steM-20210601-180715_sh I think that alone is self explanatory of how stupidly strong it is. No class could come even close to that under those conditions for the past 2 years. And mind you this took me a hour to learn. Axe mirage took me months to solidify and get to 98-99% of bench and I hit nowhere close to that SH log I provided.

Edited June 3, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[Infusion.7149]

55 minutes ago, hmmz.4186 said:

what I don't understand is if mirage is supposed to be so good why no sites like discretize feature it?

Discretize is for fractals.

See LN https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/mirage-alac-staff

[Jijimuge.4675]

45 minutes ago, mordefelix.5826 said:

It takes a while for them to update things to be honest. SC hasn’t updated for classes either. It literally can takes a month+ for this to happen and usually does take that long or longer. I mean look at the benches they’re all clearly outdated right now. But its like extremely clear that mirage is that good. I mean check my log here lmao. https://dps.report/steM-20210601-180715_sh I think that alone is self explanatory of how stupidly strong it is. No class could come even close to that under those conditions for the past 2 years. And mind you this took me a hour to learn. Axe mirage took me months to solidify and get to 98-99% of bench and I hit nowhere close to that SH log I provided.

 

Very interesting how the condi chronos are left in the dust by mirage as regards damage on this encounter as condi chrono is a spec that typically had a primary focus on confusion, albeit that it was a very niche build..  Clearly some of the condi chronos were more experienced than others, but still, the difference between the top condi chrono and the lowest mirage is quite striking....

 

I'd also remark that the parse date (based on your filename) is from 1st June, so after the most recent nerf to Winds of Chaos.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Jijimuge.4675
para spacing (again)

[Daniel Handler.4816]

2 hours ago, mordefelix.5826 said:

Ok wait Chrono is perfectly usable in CMs at a casual clear/pug level you’re just not gonna do nearly as well as others classes, and as broken as chrono was even before its nerf to 38k-39k on bench its not like it was used in fractals as a meta build either due to its high ramp up. It was never like the “go to” in fractals in the first place regardless of alac mirage. I’m still a bit confused at the point you’re making here. Could you elaborate what you mean by chrono being unusable and how that makes it a sweeping change? Alac mirage would still do just fine with nerfs compared to condi rr ren, I daresay it still outperforms condi rr ren if done correctly by a wide margin on 100 cm. Additionally, chrono definitely does just fine in 99 and 98. In 100 power chrono was never used and axe mirage was the only useful class there and condi chrono works just fine on 100. Also could you elaborate on your point before that its only good on a few bosses in raids?

"perfectly usable" lmao. yeah no. Axe is "perfectly usable" and does just fine on most of the raid bosses you feel pressured to be a staff mirage. There is nothing stopping you from playing it. Chrono is is actively terrible in CMs. Even more so when you have ping issues. 

 

It's a sweeping change because the 15% crit damage nerf on danger time, and the 25% damage nerf on chronophantasma was targeted at raid builds, but it affected everything in PvE, including the chrono builds that were already a chore in CM.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[mordefelix.5826]

10 minutes ago, Jijimuge.4675 said:

 

Very interesting how the condi chronos are left in the dust by mirage as regards damage on this encounter as condi chrono is a spec that typically had a primary focus on confusion, albeit that it was a very niche build..  Clearly some of the condi chronos were more experienced than others, but still, the difference between the top condi chrono and the lowest mirage is quite striking....

 

I'd also remark that the parse date (based on your filename) is from 1st June, so after the most recent nerf to Winds of Chaos.

YUP. Exactly, but the most vocal have yet to really address that. 

[mordefelix.5826]

16 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

"perfectly usable" lmao. yeah no. Axe is "perfectly usable" on most of the raid bosses you feel pressured to be a staff mirage. There is nothing stopping you from playing it. Chrono is is actively terrible in CMs. Even more so when you have ping issues. 

 

It's a sweeping change because the 15% crit damage nerf on danger time, and the 25% damage nerf on chronophantasma was targeted at raid builds, but it affected everything in PvE, including the chrono builds that were already a chore in CM.

Ok but like you still didn't address the point that I was saying that Chrono was ACTIVELY terrible in CMS before as well. There's a reason all the records didn't have chrono even before the nerf. You can't just use the logic of "axe is perfectly usable" on most raid bosses and then say Chrono is not perfectly usable in CMs. Mirage is perfectly usable in the same way as Chrono is perfectly usable. It's not optimal but it never was and never should have been lmao. It literally is usable in CMs and ironically still better than some DPS options like Daredevil. Ping issues are not relevant to this point because literally you'll perform poorly on any class if you don't know how to deal with your ping well. This sweeping change I'm referring to is that this class was NEVER used in CMs because of the point I listed above. It doesn't affect anything about usage. How is chrono not usable? Do I need to go into fractal CMS and get logs just to demonstrate that it's perfectly usable or are you not being specific on how it's not usable? Like do you mean there's other dps classes that just do better in fractals? Because that's like ALWAYS been the case though. That's how fractals were always supposed to be. Quickly ramping higher burst classes always did better there. 12-15 seconds for ramp up and you actually expressing that ramp up in a log means your own players barely did enough dps. But it's still usable just by the logic you say that Axe mirage is "perfectly" usable on most of the bosses you feel pressured to be axe mirage. There's literally nothing stopping you from playing chrono in CMs. Its DPS isn't like 5k. Its bench is 39k right now and yes this may seem like I'm contradicting myself but that much dps, even for its ramp up means its pretty usable in Fractals. Literally the highest power bench existing atm and yes I know.... before you say "slow uptime" but you can get slow uptime easily on 100 CM with most currently not-crappy comps and you can get slow usually in pugs since everyone's abusing firebrand/ condi rr ren/devestation ren etc. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you and you mean within a solid log/top dps performance context? Chrono was never supposed to be top because of how fractals were previously designed so..... I guess you were just forcing yourself to play the crappier class in the context it was used if that's what you mean by that..

Edited June 3, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[Katary.7096]

Axe/Torch+Axe/Pistol Mirage November 2019: 29K DPS + 25 Confusion

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNR40z8KDo)

 

Axe/Torch+Axe/Pistol Mirage early June 2021: 35K DPS + 25 Confusion

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV4B3rx6SlM)

 

Staff+Staff Mirage after May 25th 2021: 28K DPS + 44 Confusion

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DjbMbOR4lQ)

 

First issue: The higher amount of Confusion on Staff Mirage results in an even more volatile damage performance of the build. For example, very weak on the golem, very powerful on Cairn.

Second issue: What level of damage penalty should a build which provides alacrity and might to 10 allied targets receive when it is being compared to a damage focused build with no such support contribution?

 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

20 minutes ago, mordefelix.5826 said:

Ok but like you still didn't address the point that I was saying that Chrono was ACTIVELY terrible in CMS before as well. There's reason all the records didn't have chrono. You can't just use the logic of "axe is perfectly usable" on most raid bosses and then say Chrono is not perfectly usable in CMs. It literally is usable in CMs and ironically still better than some DPS options like Daredevil. Ping issues are not relevant to this point because literally you'll perform poorly on any class if you don't know how to deal with your ping well. This sweeping change I'm referring to is that this class was NEVER used in CMs because of the point I listed above. It doesn't affect anything about usage. How is chrono not usable? Do I need to go into fractal CMS and get logs just to demonstrate that it's perfectly usable or are you not being specific on how it's not usable? Like do you mean there's other dps classes that just do better? Because that's like ALWAYS been the case though.

It wasn't great before. Now it's even worse. 

It is a struggle to clear CMs with chrono but you can theoretically accomplish it.

Axe mirage does not struggle to clear.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[mordefelix.5826]

10 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

It is a struggle to clear CMs with chrono. The same cannot be said of axe mirage in raids. 

 

Hm I .... don't necessarily agree. I don't think I've had trouble clearing cms period with really anything tbh, I used chrono to clear CMs before Chrono got insanely buffed and it was honestly not hard at all. Your point is valid though if there's like tons of people having trouble clearing CMs with chrono vs something else (assuming they're actually skilled and don't have trouble clearing with classes they're equally good at). I do want to point that this post nerf chrono was STRONGER than the pre-buff chrono (when I was using it to clear CMs and was more of a noob at the game). I'm down to go get logs to give some validity to statement if you want, just let me know.

Edited June 3, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[Daniel Handler.4816]

Just now, mordefelix.5826 said:

Hm I .... don't necessarily agree. I don't think I've had trouble clearing cms period with really anything tbh. Your point is valid though if there's like tons of people having trouble clearing CMs with chrono vs something else (assuming they're actually skilled and don't have trouble clearing with classes they're equally good at). 

 

Maybe borderline unusable would be more correct. It is possible. But so is failing again and again and being asked to go guardian. 

If they do tweak the staff they should buff the torment and lower the confusion. They can lower its bench beneath axe mirage without screwing it over in modes where bosses dont attack as fast.

[mordefelix.5826]

I'll attempt chrono then and see what happens. I'm pretty confident like that me going chrono will not make the run fail and give all logs/attempts given for it then. Maybe it's just me but I really don't find CMs hard enough to warrant that me going chrono is actively griefing the run. And yeah I mean I'm basically advocating just nerf it to the point it's like still good. Not like to the ground lmao. I don't even mind if it's close in DPS with axe mirage, but if ANET is going to tell us "we want Axe mirage to be the dps build" then bloody do it XD. I'll get it to you this week or next. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[chrispy.7182]

Mirage staff without some Concentration or boon duration will not upkeep Alac 100% of the time. I don't know why people are saying it doesn't need some boon duration..... That isn't true. It also fails if the group needs to split or you get transported somewhere, since the alac barely lasts until your next Chaos Vortex, unless you add boon duration to help stack it.

Edited June 3, 2021 by chrispy.7182

[Daniel Handler.4816]

19 minutes ago, chrispy.7182 said:

Mirage staff without some Concentration or boon duration will not upkeep Alac 100% of the time. I don't know why people are saying it doesn't need some boon duration..... That isn't true. It also fails if the group needs to split or you get transported somewhere, since the alac barely lasts until your next Chaos Vortex, unless you add boon duration to help stack it.

You need concentration sigil and/or boon duration food. You wont need any concentration gear. They don't want it to be able to run full viper.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

7 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

That is balance.

(Damage + Buffs) being better at damage than just (Damage) is bad balance. This is obvious.

Damage + Buffs + Faceroll being better at damage than just Damage is worse balance.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of 'balance' then.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except a new elite spec doesn't change what I'm saying. If the new spec outperforms Mirage Staff, then we will have TWO instances of braindead, I WIN builds that need to be fixed. 

My apologies, but you said earlier that nothing will make a ‘two button, braindead, IWIN, monkey-spec’ obsolete. I suggested we wait. If your position is correct, the expansion will make it so. And again, I’ll be the first to admit you’re right. Otherwise, you’re back-pedaling on your stance.

 

This is especially true since you’re now saying the reverse. Again, my apologies, but you can’t say nothing will make one obsolete. And in the next response add the expansion will give another ‘most overpowered’ too.

 

Most means one or the other.

 

Regardless, everyone is talking in circles at this point. Again, I suggest we table it and wait to see what ANet does with either future patches or the expansion. Again, either way, it’s moot should either occurrence happen.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Ardenwolfe.8590

[Jijimuge.4675]

12 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

You need concentration sigil and/or boon duration food. You wont need any concentration gear. They don't want it to be able to run full viper.

I may be wrong on this, but surely the best food to run is anything that regains endurance?  e.g. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Orrian_Truffle_and_Meat_Stew  ?

[Daniel Handler.4816]

9 minutes ago, Jijimuge.4675 said:

I may be wrong on this, but surely the best food to run is anything that regains endurance?  e.g. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Orrian_Truffle_and_Meat_Stew  ?

This food doesn't stack with vigor.

[Obtena.7952]

35 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

My apologies, but you said early that nothing will make a ‘two button, braindead, IWIN, monkey-spec’ obsolete. I suggested we wait. If your position is correct, the expansion will make it so. And again, I’ll be the first to admit you’re right. Otherwise, you’re back-pedaling on your stance.

 

There is no back pedalling and we don't need to wait for an expansion to tell us that I WIN builds don't become obsolete, EVEN if more I WIN builds are added to the game via expansions or other game changes. Builds that trivialize game play don't become less so if others exist. 

 

The only way that 2 button I WIN builds become 'obsolete' is if content difficulty is ramped up so high that these builds are a new standard in being successful in that content. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Obtena, you said nothing will make Mirage Staff obsolete. I'm saying the expansion's newest mesmer specialization will do that and more. I suggested we wait and see if your position is correct. I'm giving you an out. Unless you don't believe your own opinion, these responses make no sense.

 

You can't have it both ways.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Ardenwolfe.8590

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

Obtena, you said nothing will make Mirage Staff obsolete. I'm saying the expansion's newest mesmer specialization will do that and more. 

The new specialization will not make an already broken build less broke. Iit can only lead to the same thing still being broken ... or an additional broken build on top of that. Only changes from the content side will address this ... or nerfing the offending broken effect. 

 

I don't need an 'out' ... the idea that additional builds from a new elite spec somehow fixes an existing broken build makes no sense.  If you are implying there is a contradiction in what I'm saying, you will have to explain it more explicitly than just saying one exists. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jijimuge.4675]

24 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is no back pedalling and we don't need to wait for an expansion to tell us that I WIN builds don't become obsolete, EVEN if more I WIN builds are added to the game via expansions or other game changes. Builds that trivialize game play don't become less so if others exist. 

 

The only way that 2 button I WIN builds become 'obsolete' is if content difficulty is ramped up so high that these builds are a new standard in being successful in that content. 

Not to mention that, the longer a situation exists, the more likely it is to become entrenched as a norm in peoples' minds - and this goes for builds too.

 

i.e. nerfing (say) Firebrand now would probably provoke more of an outcry than nerfing mirage or the newly buffed scourge or the like, simply because people have become used to the current performance of firebrand....there's a degree of inertia to an established status quo

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

22 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's not THE reason for this back and forth nonsense. Guarenteed that NOTHING makes a two button I WIN monkey spec obsolete. 

Arguing around your own opinion doesn't change what you said. Regardless, I'll save this thread until that time arrives. If you say something is an absolute, time doesn't change that.

 

We'll revisit this when the newest specialization goes live. 😊

Edited June 3, 2021 by Ardenwolfe.8590

[mordefelix.5826]

I long for just one of these well thought out arguments from @Obtena.7952 to be properly addressed. Just one. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[Obtena.7952]

22 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

We'll revisit this when the newest specialization goes live. 

I'm sure we won't ... because nothing being introduced will make a broken build less broken.  

Edited June 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[mungozen.2379]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm sure we won't ... because nothing being introduced will make a broken build less broken.  

well.....

 

if EoD gives every profession one or more ‘2 button, face rolling, broken builds’ then that would be the new norm. And suddenly the Staff Mirage would be part of the gang not an outlier. 
 

this route is not likely though as it would step on many other profession builds and require balancing those up to a new level.  I expect the new eSpecs to offer equal or stronger performance when the expac drops to draw players to those new builds. Not broken levels of usefulness. 

 

other then that, I generally agree with you,  the new Mesmer eSpec will not change how Mirage works today. It might draw attention away from it but until something changes with Staff Mirage itself (or via crossover from other profession or game changes) it will continue to be exactly what it is today.