Staff Mirage still needs a nerfby a significant amount, Dueling Illusions Axe/Torch+Pistol Mirage is supposed to be the dps class right but there's no way it can compete.

[Obtena.7952]

 

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

Agreed. 

 

 

The primary issue is people seem to assume we are all against ranged options existing, however no ones against it. I don't think anyone will care if a longbow ranger and a GS ranger were in a group together doing the same DPS and enjoying their own thing. 

 

The problem is this mesmer build was litterally outputting 50k DPS whole applying alacrity and 25 might. This isn't "equalising range with melee" this is outright launching a busted AF specc and it doesn't even fall down to difficulty. 

 

If they allow Condi weaver to do 60k DPS people won't care about difficulty. People will want It nerfed. 

 

Having something so obscenely overpowered is unhealthy for the game. And enabling people 

 

I don't care if they are doing 35k-40k DPS on a easymode build, I don't care if they are ranged. Someone else's fun isn't of any impact on me. 

 

The problem is it was wildly overpowered. 

I think the important thing here is that people need to understand this isn't just about the fact that the build is OP. I would have NO problem with this build if there was some even REASONALBE mechanic to set it up or pull it off. There isn't. This build is literally carried by spamming dodge rolls and auto attack and if you want to stretch yourself to the limit 🙄, weapon swapping. So the problem is the combination of being very strong and literally not needed to know more than dodging and auto attacking to accomplish it. I mean, we are talking about level 1 noob mechanics here. 

 

In no way can any reasonable player think this is a good option for players to have access to. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Katary.7096]

6 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

The primary issue is people seem to assume we are all against ranged options existing, however no ones against it. I don't think anyone will care if a longbow ranger and a GS ranger were in a group together doing the same DPS and enjoying their own thing.

Well, a Ranger build could be expected to swap weapons at some point in combat, but to keep with the spirit of the example: A greatsword Ranger build and a longbow Ranger build should never have the same level of performance based solely on their weapon skills because the Longbow can hit targets at a much greater distance than the greatsword. If the weapon choices in the game are supposed to be balanced, then the longbow needs to pay some kind of price to offset the range advantage. Otherwise greatsword is just a bad version of longbow.

[Kondor.2904]

17 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Oh so condi Staff was used a lot in Fractals and Raids before we got this patch? Yeah I didn’t think so. Keep scrolling and enjoy the rest of your day. 👋

Staff had its niche as a utility weapon, and it was used where this utility set made sense. Not every weapon is supposed to break benchmarks in instanced content. 

[Armen.1483]

On 6/11/2021 at 11:22 PM, Alquinon.2957 said:

 

Not really...you can easily swap out signet of domination for feedback or stability mantra or whatever skill you need. You only lose out on 180 condi damage. Furthermore if you want CC said signet is also a 3 second stun and you have your f3 built into your kit.

 

So it depends on which renegade build you compare it to. Condi RR renegade will bring very little of the utility you mentioned. Diviner renegade will bring more support and CC but you'll watch your dps drop when you have to swap to staff or burn energy to cc.

You can take feedback on mathias but that's it.. Gl on reflecting on adina and sabir. CC really ? Staff mirage's max CC is 600 breakbar damage if he uses everything, while rev got 600 breakbar damage just from Darkrazor, condi rev got very good CC without staff: Darkrazor+Rift+Schorchrazor. It is worse than diviner rev with staff, but no need to compare, condi rev's cc is decent enough. I am not going to talk seriously about stability mantra, never seen anyone use that garbage skill, not gonna do myself ever. That skill is very bad. Rev's stab doesn't need BD to work and is pretty strong and pretty big. Condi Rev with new build brings Assassin's presence and some serious boonrip it is no joke and pretty needed on some bosses. Oh and you don't lose much dps on staff on diviner rev if you actually know how to play renegade. If we compare mirage using signet and swapping to staff on diviner rev: the dps loss is pretty similar (both negligable), but the value of CC is really different.

[Alquinon.2957]

2 hours ago, Armen.1483 said:

You can take feedback on mathias but that's it.. Gl on reflecting on adina and sabir. CC really ? Staff mirage's max CC is 600 breakbar damage if he uses everything, while rev got 600 breakbar damage just from Darkrazor, condi rev got very good CC without staff: Darkrazor+Rift+Schorchrazor. It is worse than diviner rev with staff, but no need to compare, condi rev's cc is decent enough. I am not going to talk seriously about stability mantra, never seen anyone use that garbage skill, not gonna do myself ever. That skill is very bad. Rev's stab doesn't need BD to work and is pretty strong and pretty big. Condi Rev with new build brings Assassin's presence and some serious boonrip it is no joke and pretty needed on some bosses. Oh and you don't lose much dps on staff on diviner rev if you actually know how to play renegade. If we compare mirage using signet and swapping to staff on diviner rev: the dps loss is pretty similar (both negligable), but the value of CC is really different.

 

Lol you're going to take 2 different renegade builds and cherry pick their strengths to justify that staff mirage is bad?

 

Swapping to staff on diviner rev is a pretty big dps loss unless your group has mediocre cc and dps so you can swap back in time and have more dps uptime in sword.

 

The problem with mirage is that while it's pretty average on most fights, on the few confusions bosses (largos, soulless horror, and cairn to some extent) it's far and ahead the best choice there is. Axe mirage was already king on those bosses and now you introduce another mirage build that outshines even that by a wide margin, that was mostly the problem. Now after the nerfs it's still arguable which mirage build is better (depends on your team comp and skill level).

[fixit.7189]

all i can say is, i detest piano specs where you have to learn a 20+ step rotation that needs to be 100% perfect or you suck. it's one main reasons why i can't get any of my wow friends to even play this game: the rotations can be so convoluted it's just not fun. at all. people say, oh you have to have complex rotations to justify it to be a top build and i say: why can't it be a bit easier and fun? i mean i see no one complaining about DD where all i have to do is AA and hit bound now and then yet mirage does it and it's wrong? nerf staff into the gutter: i'll still play it over axe no matter what so w/e.

Edited June 14, 2021 by fixit.7189

[Xeon.5768]

On 5/30/2021 at 12:43 PM, mordefelix.5826 said:

This with UPDATED arcdps and not even a good rotation imo
https://dps.report/4hMt-20210530-134443_twins 32k+ with bad vuln. 
https://dps.report/ajCa-20210530-151933_sh 51k Just broken.
Let's also remember stackings at least two mirages gives overcapped alacrity. But we don't need to worry about that since you want to stack STAFF mirages ANYWAYS for max dps.

LET ME ADD THIS IS WHAT ANET WANTED BUT DID NOT DO.

Mesmer

We're excited by how enthusiastic everyone is for the staff-wielding mirage. With the recent improvements to Chaos traits, the torment condition's performance in PvE, and the changes to the staff skills themselves, staff is currently overperforming as a boon support weapon. We'd like to keep axe-and-torch as the DPS build, and ease the performance of the mirage's staff down into a competitive support build, which means lowering its overall damage output (and confusion uptime).
 

Good showcase thx for telling the truth again.

I am just waiting for those mirage players who enjoyed the braindead play and reported me for telling the truth about a braindead class doing god tier dps with excessive amount of autoattacking. 

Please report me again and prevent me from telling the truth.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Xeon.5768]

On 6/3/2021 at 9:24 AM, hmmz.4186 said:

what I don't understand is if mirage is supposed to be so good why no sites like discretize feature it?

Why would a popular site publicize a build that is known to be broken at the current state, and deem to be nerfed in the near future? It is a waste of time to write lines of words for it, given that it should and must be nerf-ed later. 

[Xeon.5768]

On 5/31/2021 at 6:52 AM, Veprovina.4876 said:

Mesmers are never going to be good again if the community always has a problem with whatever Anet does.

If mesmers are the ones asking for nerfs, we already lost and Mesmer is going to be trash forever.

 

But if they maybe make the Staff a boon/utility weapon, and useful in WvW (with 2 dodges!!!), and buff Axe to what it once was, it might actually be good. But they'd really need to redesign what Staff 3 does, and make it so it applies some other boons, maybe even boonstrip or clenses - plus - redesign staff traits to reflect it being a support weapon.

 

Because this is going nowhere. They buff staff damage - mesmers complain. They give staff alacrity - mesmers complain. Mesmer finally reaches a semblence of being good - mesmers complain.

 

Can we al just stop complaining and be thankful that at least one mesmer build can be top tier? It's fine when other classes are top tier but mesmers can't be - god forbid. But it's even worse than that - it's self defeating attitude that will lead mesmer to beyond trash because anet isn't going to overthink this like the people on the forums do - they're just going to meganerf everything without thinking again and you all will go back to complaining how mesmer is trash.

 

Think about what you're doing.

A real gamer. Every mesmer player should read and try to comprehend the logic of what this guy tells.

 

Edit:

An introspection moment of a player who previously tried to insist on braindead-rewarding playstyle but finally realized where the issue was. Glad to see that move overall.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Xeon.5768]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:19 AM, Loradona.9146 said:

Quickness FB is doing good damage also easy to play. Soooooo should we nerf that tho? /s

Yea indeed. Make all the condition classes as close as condition weaver/holosmith plz. This is the logic of maintaining condi at 40-50k golem bench, while pwr builds are doing 33-39k.

[Armen.1483]

20 hours ago, Alquinon.2957 said:

 

Lol you're going to take 2 different renegade builds and cherry pick their strengths to justify that staff mirage is bad?

 

Swapping to staff on diviner rev is a pretty big dps loss unless your group has mediocre cc and dps so you can swap back in time and have more dps uptime in sword.

 

The problem with mirage is that while it's pretty average on most fights, on the few confusions bosses (largos, soulless horror, and cairn to some extent) it's far and ahead the best choice there is. Axe mirage was already king on those bosses and now you introduce another mirage build that outshines even that by a wide margin, that was mostly the problem. Now after the nerfs it's still arguable which mirage build is better (depends on your team comp and skill level).

I was talking about the utility of mirage, not saying that it is bad. The bad utility is compensated by good damage, and we need to compare it to other alac options. 

And a little offtopic tip about staff on renegade: swap to staff before the CC bars so you can swap back to sword on burst with the buff of severance sigil. That way you won't lose damage and on some bosses you even gain damage. Renegade is not much dependent on weapon skills, meanwhile AA chains are quite strong on staff. You lose dps on staff not because the staff is bad, but because you use energy instead of damage skills, but if your knowledge of bosses is good and you got some decent enery management, the dps loss on swapping to staff is negligable and on some bosses where you got invuln CC bars you can even gain damage by swapping to staff if you time your weapon swaps well.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Armen.1483
bad grammar

[Mik.3401]

8 hours ago, fixit.7189 said:

all i can say is, i detest piano specs where you have to learn a 20+ step rotation that needs to be 100% perfect or you suck. it's one main reasons why i can't get any of my wow friends to even play this game: the rotations can be so convoluted it's just not fun. at all. people say, oh you have to have complex rotations to justify it to be a top build and i say: why can't it be a bit easier and fun? i mean i see no one complaining about DD where all i have to do is AA and hit bound now and then yet mirage does it and it's wrong? nerf staff into the gutter: i'll still play it over axe no matter what so w/e.

I kind of agree. GW1 had simple 8 skills system and it felt fun and clean. Of course it was challenging at times as well, but over complicating stuff for the sake of Mesmer being supposed to be hard makes little sense to me. Thief’s fractal rotation is an auto attack, Warrior spams decapitate skill, why cannot mirage just do the same as an option?

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I kind of agree. GW1 had simple 8 skills system and it felt fun and clean. Of course it was challenging at times as well, but over complicating stuff for the sake of Mesmer being supposed to be hard makes little sense to me. Thief’s fractal rotation is an auto attack, Warrior spams decapitate skill, why cannot mirage just do the same as an option?

That's not a valid comparison ... the problem isn't that it's a spammed attack. ANYONE can do that if they want. Again, problem here isn't easy vs. hard, or spam/not spamming. Problem is the build potential vs. build mechanics. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Rhapsedy.1569]

My take away from all of this is that two handed sword or axe Mesmer's are being elitest's . I love playing this game. But I have short fingers. So all of your Final Fantasy key stroking to play your class is just  good coordination.  Why does a class have to be "hit these 50 keys to get off this one skill" to play? What happened to playing a game because its fun? If you like the Final Fantasy style playing great! Love your character and play it well. But don't scream for nerfs for the rest of us because we don't like to play like that and want to have fun.

 

Can't we all just get along? 

 

Just remember. When you scream for nerfs to other classes, your class will eventually be in the hot seat. And when you scream for nerfs to your own class. . . well, your spec might just get that nerf bat as well. 

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

16 hours ago, fixit.7189 said:

all i can say is, i detest piano specs where you have to learn a 20+ step rotation that needs to be 100% perfect or you suck. it's one main reasons why i can't get any of my wow friends to even play this game: the rotations can be so convoluted it's just not fun. at all. people say, oh you have to have complex rotations to justify it to be a top build and i say: why can't it be a bit easier and fun? i mean i see no one complaining about DD where all i have to do is AA and hit bound now and then yet mirage does it and it's wrong? nerf staff into the gutter: i'll still play it over axe no matter what so w/e.

This and this:

 

1 minute ago, Rhapsedy.1569 said:

My take away from all of this is that two handed sword or axe Mesmer's are being elitest's . I love playing this game. But I have short fingers. So all of your Final Fantasy key stroking to play your class is just  good coordination.  Why does a class have to be "hit these 50 keys to get off this one skill" to play? What happened to playing a game because its fun? If you like the Final Fantasy style playing great! Love your character and play it well. But don't scream for nerfs for the rest of us because we don't like to play like that and want to have fun.

 

Can't we all just get along? 

 

Just remember. When you scream for nerfs to other classes, your class will eventually be in the hot seat. And when you scream for nerfs to your own class. . . well, your spec might just get that nerf bat as well. 

 QFT and well said.

[Mik.3401]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's not a valid comparison ... the problem isn't that it's a spammed attack. ANYONE can do that if they want. Again, problem here isn't easy vs. hard, or spam/not spamming. Problem is the build potential vs. build mechanics. 

Could you elaborate please? Do you mean it is bad because it takes low effort to attain good results? 

It is easy indeed, but let's be honest - is axe condi build really that hard either? It may not be the easiest for newbies due to higher risk in melee range but it is definetely much easier than power chrono from my experience.

I think making effort accordant to the results would kill the whole classes like of warrior, guardian or necro. Would it make sense to do so? Of course not, is mirage staff build kind of unfairly easy in comparison to axe? Maybe, but at the end the devs need to make sure there is something for eveyone to enjoy the game. Some people just want to play the pink class without worrying about rotation and they took it into consideration.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

Could you elaborate please? Do you mean it is bad because it takes low effort to attain good results? 

It is easy indeed, but let's be honest - is axe condi build really that hard either? It may not be the easiest for newbies due to higher risk in melee range but it is definetely much easier than power chrono from my experience.

I think making effort accordant to the results would kill the whole classes like of warrior, guardian or necro. Would it make sense to do so? Of course not, is mirage staff build kind of unfairly easy in comparison to axe? Maybe, but at the end the devs need to make sure there is something for eveyone to enjoy the game. Some people just want to play the pink class without worrying about rotation and they took it into consideration.

 

 

No, I've said it's unreasonable because it's lowest effort resulting in the some of the highest performance. I mean, I've already explained this. 

 

Sure, some people just want to play the pink class without worrying about rotation. That's not the problem here. That's not what anyone is talking about ... except for the people that don't want to see this build nerfed. 

 

I mean, ultimately, I have no doubt balancing risk/reward isn't a big Anet concern but what I do know is that if this build results in the same 'stacking' problem Anet saw which resulted in Chrono getting slapped with the nerf hammer on May11th as well ... Mirage is next. I can see it ... how many Staff Mirage does it take to short man a raid? That's exactly the kind of thing that got Chrono where it's at. It got Scourge nerfed even longer back. Cheesing content is a big red flag and that's exactly what this build does. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Mik.3401]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, I've said it's unreasonable because it's lowest effort resulting in the some of the highest performance. I mean, I've already explained this. Literally, the build takes level 1 mechanics and gives you performances that equal or exceed some OW bounty soloing builds. That's just absurd. The problem in this thread is that there are people downplaying the performance you get from this build to justify having a 'good' build for 'newbies'. 

Ok then I got it right what you meant. To me Revenant Alac just needing to press one specialization skill and doing decent damage with swords is also a level 1 mechanics but it does not seem to be problem. I understand where you come from though regarding cdps, it can be frustrating to see more engaging metas being contested or replaced by such easy builds.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

Ok then I got it right what you meant. To me Revenant Alac just needing to press one specialization skill and doing decent damage with swords is also a level 1 mechanics but it does not seem to be problem. I understand where you come from though regarding cdps, it can be frustrating to see more engaging metas being contested or replaced by such easy builds.

Sure, Alac Renegade delivers team alacrity and does decent damage. That's not a problem because to do that, you have to make the build around doing that. That comparison isn't really relevant here because the three-button staff Mirage build in question here simply gives Alacrity as a consequence of facerolling on two of its three buttons to give it. At least with the Renegade, someone has to think and pay attention to how the build works and when to use the ability to apply Alacrity. There is even a positioning element to it ... 

 

... not for the 3 button staff mirage.  Honestly, it just makes the game feel cheap, I'm not jealous like some people accuse me of. I can make this build, cheese a whole bunch of hard stuff, dance on the corpse and roll in my big pile of gold ... but it's pretty empty. It's not good for the game to have this stuff and we see how Anet does NOT like stacking classes to 'win' content. 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Mik.3401]

30 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, Alac Renegade delivers team alacrity and does decent damage. That's not a problem because to do that, you have to make the build around doing that. That comparison isn't really relevant here because the three-button staff Mirage build in question here simply gives Alacrity as a consequence of facerolling on two of its three buttons to give it. At least with the Renegade, someone has to think and pay attention to how the build works and when to use the ability to apply Alacrity. There is even a positioning element to it ... 

 

... not for the 3 button staff mirage.  Honestly, it just makes the game feel cheap, I'm not jealous like some people accuse me of. I can make this build, cheese a whole bunch of hard stuff, dance on the corpse and roll in my big pile of gold ... but it's pretty empty. It's not good for the game to have this stuff and we see how Anet does NOT like stacking classes to 'win' content. 

 

I agree, but I wouldn’t say there is no positioning factor for mirage build or that you can use it with any build, gear or cons. To keep the alac uptime without loosing it you need to strategise at certain situations given there is 0% boon uptime in the meta. It is cheese indeed, but it’s also the only option friendly for beginners from Mesmer - I highly doubt one would stick with this build for very long out of boredom, plus further nerfs are coming I think it is granted

Edited June 15, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Alquinon.2957]

Lol people keep bringing up alac renegade. On alac renegade your dps will be pretty garbage if you play as you described (press f4 and auto attack in sword). Whereas on staff mirage, you will easily be top dps if you just summon 3 clones and chain your ambushes properly on SH, Cairn, and Largos Twins.

 

Even on condi RR renegade, sure you can do the same same dps and output 10 man alac for about half the uptime too. But it is also a much more involved rotation that uses 2 legends and 2 sets of weapon skills.

 

Here we have staff mirage that uses 2 weapon skills, a dodge button, auto attack, and I guess throw in an f2 if you feel like it. You're using like 30% of your kit and you're already at 90% effectiveness. Do you really think a good build?

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

I agree, but I wouldn’t say there is no positioning factor for mirage build or that you can use it with any build, gear or cons. To keep the alac uptime without loosing it you need to strategise at certain situations given there is 0% boon uptime in the meta. It is cheese indeed, but it’s also the only option friendly for beginners from Mesmer - I highly doubt one would stick with this build for very long out of boredom, plus further nerfs are coming I think it is granted

I think that's much to generous ... It's not really about beginners or not. I mean, 'beginners' in instanced content don't NECESSARILY come in all tanked up with broken mechanics. Many are starting with meta builds, with perhaps a little more sustain traits, etc ... that's not what this build is. I don't even think it would be a good beginner build ... the toughness stack on that is not appealing to a team trying to deal with aggro or a beginner trying to keep a low profile. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Mik.3401]

7 hours ago, Alquinon.2957 said:

Lol people keep bringing up alac renegade. On alac renegade your dps will be pretty garbage if you play as you described (press f4 and auto attack in sword). Whereas on staff mirage, you will easily be top dps if you just summon 3 clones and chain your ambushes properly on SH, Cairn, and Largos Twins.

 

Even on condi RR renegade, sure you can do the same same dps and output 10 man alac for about half the uptime too. But it is also a much more involved rotation that uses 2 legends and 2 sets of weapon skills.

 

Here we have staff mirage that uses 2 weapon skills, a dodge button, auto attack, and I guess throw in an f2 if you feel like it. You're using like 30% of your kit and you're already at 90% effectiveness. Do you really think a good build?

But I didn’t say sword auto attack…

[Alquinon.2957]

17 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

Ok then I got it right what you meant. To me Revenant Alac just needing to press one specialization skill and doing decent damage with swords is also a level 1 mechanics but it does not seem to be problem. I understand where you come from though regarding cdps, it can be frustrating to see more engaging metas being contested or replaced by such easy builds.

 

If you actually want to do damage on diviner renegade you need to learn how to manage your energy efficiently while juggling all the skills including your weapon skills and f3-f4. It is a much more involved build to play. Otherwise you're just an alac bot doing 5k damage.

 

Even berserker that you seem to dismiss as a simple build has a lot more complications. You have to constantly drain and replenish your adrenaline and sometimes for different bosses you even want to change up your rotation depending on phase times. Warrior is the one class I don't play much and I can tell you the difference between my level and some of the warrior players I know is huge.

 

On staff mirage you just auto attack and spam dodges when they are up. If you want to be extra tryhard you might even do a f2 shatter and summon a few clones every 20 seconds.

[Puck.3697]

On 6/12/2021 at 10:44 PM, Tseison.4659 said:

And that’s on PERIODT. Wish I could like this more lol but that’s EXACTLY why I like range weapons more and would rather they be more offensive too instead of 75% support and the other 15% like condi or cc. But that’s just me. 

 

While I agree with yours and the quoted message I will throw this out there. 

 

Even with a ranged weapon this gameplay doesn't exist, because of how boons work. U will generally stack together to make healing and boons easier to apply in a raid enviroment I'm afraid. 

 

They don't cater to the playstyle because without a overhaul the playstyle doesn't really exist. I means there's "ranged" to a extent but your never gonna have gameplay of a mage from world of Warcraft for example in this game. 

 

It's because boons and heals are mainly a AoE thing and not a ranged targeted application. As far as I'm aware it's pretty meta to stack ontop of each other. 

 

It's not bad game design, it's simply pros and cons of the way gw2 is built. To have a game with no roles effectively you have these issues where compromises happen. 

 

And it's not the game doesn't have DPS ranged weapons. It's more the fact weapon swap exists.

 

Rangers for example use a ranged weapon. But their weapon swap are melee weapons as a prime example. It's used for the damage. But it's not a solid ranged build. 

 

But standing away from your group/raid will affect you negatively as it will be harder for the group to try and heal you and keep uptime on boon application. So u will sit in melee regardless. 

 

Every system has its downfalls. This Is gw2s, but the fact WoWs systems has the same problem just opposite way around and so does FFXIV to a extent kinda shows no systems making both roles equally valuable. 

 

Because if you make ranged do equal damage to melee ranged will instantly become meta. That's just the way it is. The game becomes more forgiving as a ranged player. You will never have a game which equalises it 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Daddy.8125