GW1 Style Mesmer skills in GW2 - A Fantasy

[Senqu.8054]

The identity of the thematic „ mesmer“ got  a little bit forgotten in the past years. In special since the introduction of mirage, a lot of attention went to a more heavily evasive focused playstyle, which is not wrong for this thematic but it simplified the class a little bit to much, if you ask me.

 

One important aspect of a Mesmer was allways to create trade-off situations, for the Enemy. In these situations the Enemy had to choose between options to prevent incoming harm from the mesmer. What was special about it was, that these options never offered a good outcome for the enemy, but it could be situational better for him to do A instead of B. Confusion and later torment and slow was an attempt  to go in this direction, but they are not fulfilling this job in the best way possible or are not accessible enough.

 

With the conditions as we know them in gw2, a lot of effects are just not possible. This is a huge factor that influences the playstyle of this profession and also leads to the sadly state that Mesmer is mostly defined by clones from the majority, while the thematic Mesmer itself offers so much more. 

 

On a side note here, hexes do offer the special characteristic of: „If target does AB then this skill does XY“. That’s also why in my opinion hexes are a very important thing that is missing in this game but this post is not only about hexes but about mechanical posebilitys 

 

Another important thing i also wanted to note is: A very characteristic thing for mesmer skills was, that only a few inflicted health degeneration, which is also very different from the todays mesmer (related to the boon and condition system). A lot of effects or mesmer skills in gw1 have been either:

 

-directly appearing effects

-delayed appearing effects that deal direct damage after some time or drain energy or interrupt etc.

Or

-Effects that influence the coolddowns, casttime or anything related to the acting of the enemy

 

 

Because a lot of people have never played gw1 i want to show you now some gw1 skills and how they could be implemented in gw2. I think some skills are very good illustrations of how it felt to play a mesmer in the first game. Don’t take these skills for full. For sure it is not everything balanced out for the gw2 system but it should boost the fantasy for more and should show that there could be more traits and skills like Power Block.

 

 

E-Surge (Endurance-Surge aka Energy-Surge)

Gw1 example: Causes X Energy loss. Deals X damage to target and nearby foes for each point of Energy lost.

 

Gw2 example:  Causes X Endurance loss. Deals X damage to target and nearby foes for each point of endurance lost.

 

 

Blackout

Gw1 example: Touch Skill. (2...5...6seconds.) Disables enemy skills. Your skills are disabled (5 seconds)

 

Gw2 implementation: Touch Skill. X Seconds Disables skill. Your skills are disabled (5 seconds)

 

 

Illusionary weapons

Gw1 example: Elite Enchantment Spell. (30 seconds.) Deals 8...34...40damage to foes in place of other damage or effects from melee attacks. You have +5 armor for each equipped Illusion Magic skill

 

Gw2 example: For X seconds your attributes: powers and condition damage / precision and expertise are switched.

 

 

Hex: Price of Pride

Gw1 example: Hex Spell. (5...17...20seconds.) Causes 1...6...7Energy loss the next time target foe uses an elite skill

 

Gw2 example: For X seconds, if your enemy uses an elite skill, the elite skill will get immediately interrupted (looking at you, guards :D)

 

 

Hex: Wastrels Worry

Gw1 example: Hex Spell. (3 seconds). End effect: causes 20...84...100damage to target and adjacent foes. No effect and ends early if target foe uses a skill

 

Gw2 example: After 3 seconds deals X amount of damage. No effect if the target uses a utility skill in this 3 seconds

 

 

Illusion of Weakness

Gw1 example: Enchantment Spell. Lose 50...202...240Health. End effect: you gain 50...202...240Health. Ends if damage drops your Health below 25% of your maximum 

 

Gw2 example: Entchantment Lose X health. If your health falls under 25% you heal for X.

 

 

Gw1 Mind Wrack

Gw1 example: Hex Spell. (5...33...40seconds.) Causes 1 Energy loss each time foe is the target of your non-hex Mesmer skills. Deals 5...21...25damage per point of Energy lost. If target foe's Energy drops to 0, it takes 15...83...100damage and Mind Wrack ends

 

Gw2 example: Causes X Endurance loss each time foe is the target of your non-hex Mesmer skills. Deals X damage per point of Endurance lost. If target foes endurance drops to 0 it takes X damage and Mind Wrack ends.

 

 

Accumulated_Pain

Gw1 example: Deals X damage. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (X seconds), if target foe has 2 or more hexes

 

Gw2 example: Skilltype  AB inflicts weakness and cripple. If the enemy is already under the influences of weakness or cripple, the skill applies in addition slow and deals X damage.

 

 

 

An honorable mentioning from gw2: iWorlock (Staff 3)

This skill was a perfect example of implementing the gw1 style Mesmer in gw2 but the developers lost track of the awesomeness of this skill and destroyed it. This skill dealt direct damage with each condition on the enemy. If they would have paired power Mesmer with more non damaging conditions like slow and chill it would have been the reincarnation of the gw1 style. Skills like this created trade off situations for the enemy that directly influences  both the Mesmers next decisions and the enemys. Skills like this would create interesting build possibility’s with the right implementations of other skills and traits.

 

 

 

But not only my fantasy is asked here. Tell me your opinion or write also some skills or mechanics down. Let us think, what could have been if the game focused on its spirit instead of trying to ride the esl dragon. 

[Jijimuge.4675]

A skill I always liked in GW was "shatter delusions".  I had thought that this could create some interesting choice-based play if there were regular sources of (pref short lived) confusion

 

The old GW skill was - "Spell. Removes a Mesmer hex from target foe. Removal effect: 15...63...75 damage to target and all adjacent foes." (was using the Domination attribute)

 

Shatter Delusions (my idea for a GW2 interpretation)

Remove all stacks of confusion from target opponent.  Deal X damage + Y for each stack of confusion removed (perhaps AoE too)

 

Would create a choice...does one leave the stacks to tick hoping that the enemy uses a skill, or does one "cash them in" for a spike of damage?

[Senqu.8054]

Ou wow I hadn’t thought about that. This is exactly in my taste. Awesome idea. Domination skills always offered so much more, if you ask me. I bought 3 henchmen slots to play domination way in PvE. Reminds me of logging in again

[Salt Mode.3780]

Problem with bringing GW1 to GW2 is game is entirely different, mechanics are different, gameplay and style is different. If the devs were too lazy to even do actual balance for mirage instead of removing an entire dodge what makes you think they will "try" to implement GW1 mechanics and incorporate it into GW2 for Mesmers...???

[Senqu.8054]

29 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Problem with bringing GW1 to GW2 is game is entirely different, mechanics are different, gameplay and style is different. If the devs were too lazy to even do actual balance for mirage instead of removing an entire dodge what makes you think they will "try" to implement GW1 mechanics and incorporate it into GW2 for Mesmers...???

First of all it is daydreaming. Some people have fun doing it. It’s the same topic as discussing how the clone mechanics could be replaced. The point is it’s as meaningless as your comment saying it is not possible. See it as fanfiction.

 

Second. No one ever thinks that the devs would ever listen to the Mesmer community.

 

And finally, I’m pretty sure you haven’t read it that carefully so what’s the point?

[lockhart.6048]

Aside from being a completely different game, GW1 Mesmers would legit make people rage quit the game faster than Mirages or Chronomancers did at their prime.

 

I know this because I've been sent death threats using a simple Blackout build in RA or timing a well placed Diversion. Some people quit matches and took the dishonor hit when faced against a good Mesmer.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

First of all it is daydreaming. Some people have fun doing it. It’s the same topic as discussing how the clone mechanics could be replaced. The point is it’s as meaningless as your comment saying it is not possible. See it as fanfiction.

 

Second. No one ever thinks that the devs would ever listen to the Mesmer community.

 

And finally, I’m pretty sure you haven’t read it that carefully so what’s the point?

Your long post shows more passion then just a simple "fanfiction", the fact that you are reacting this negatively to my post shows how you want these changes to occur.

Nothing in GW1 Mesmer mechanic implemented in GW2 will have ANY benefits whatsoever nor will it help people hating on the profession in fact I'm pretty sure it will get more hate. 

[Mik.3401]

I think the GW1 style skills would be a bit OP in this game as no other class has ‘hex’ kind of skills. If one was to spam skills interrupting elite skills or eating endurance and damaging at the same time it would make duelling against Mesmer completely unplayable. I think the only way it would work would be if Mesmer damage was greatly reduced and that wouldn’t be welcomed well by the community I am sure of that.

I think the gw1 - like effects can be applied in different ways now - e.g. the power block build

[Puck.3697]

16 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

On a side note here, hexes do offer the special characteristic of: „If target does AB then this skill does XY“. That’s also why in my opinion hexes are a very important thing that is missing in this game but this post is not only about hexes but about mechanical posebilitys 

 

i can see hexs coming back.. but i dont think their design will be this, why? Because GW2 balancing involves PvE.. u cant make such skills work in PvE so they wont do em that way.  i think it'll be more Hexing ur target gives abilities Additional effects or something like this.

 

they wont be able to balance such a System to remotely even be Useful at anything in PvE which will drag it down.. also as the guy above says.. it'll be widly OP Because classes arent built the way they were in gw1 either, so its going to be too strong to throw into this game without HEAVY limitations.

 

this could result in more damage then there already is.. butchering a Elite design coming out the gate Will only enrage players More then never getting it.

 

i think personally it may not be worth the risk. as we both know u wont get Hexs exactly as they were in gw1, it runs large risks.

 

this isnt me advocating for Mesmers to remain on Clone jail either im not saying we shouldnt have a elite without Clones. i personally feel theres better implementations however then Twisting a over a Decade old design to somehow fit into this games design however.

 

 

I think Illusionary weaponary. - F1-F5 is changed to create illusionary objects to attack and Disrupt targets.

 

Our current utilities which summon Illusions are changed to summon different illusionary attacks. amplifiers to shatters are changed to modify our F1-F5 attacks.

 

a Main hand and the mechanic change to a Illusionary off hand weapon. - F1 - F5 changes to allow us to summon weapons.

 

Our current Illusion utilities are Changed to be Damaging abilities dependibng on the offhand we're using.

Our shatters are changed to Modify skills we get with each illusionary weapon.

 

Bard - Our clones are changed to Musical Notes which offer our groups different utilities and benefits (Granted this might be too close to chronomancers Orginal Concept back in HoT)

 

would be some ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

It is possible to do something similar to gw1 mesmer with gw2 mechanics, as Senqu showed above.
Also remembered Bods idea from like 2017:

That being said, will ANerf ever do it? No. Mesmer is already cried over by every other profession in the pitiful state it is, imagine the qq, a shutdown machine like gw1 mes, would provoke.

[Senqu.8054]

15 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Your long post shows more passion then just a simple "fanfiction", the fact that you are reacting this negatively to my post shows how you want these changes to occur.

Nothing in GW1 Mesmer mechanic implemented in GW2 will have ANY benefits whatsoever nor will it help people hating on the profession in fact I'm pretty sure it will get more hate. 

You shouldn’t be so sensitive. I can’t see anything negative about the post beside I contradicted you or better, answered your question:

 

21 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

what makes you think they will "try" to implement GW1 mechanics and incorporate it into GW2 for Mesmers...???

If you do not like, that I just don’t be overly friendly to you, it’s maybe the fact that you used 3 question marks to end your sentence. But if you wish I could add some smileys 😄

 

Anyways, sure, I wish that the new espec will have more in common with the thematic then the last two. Everyone has some wishes about the new espec, you too. Don’t know what is wrong with that, but maybe you want to explain. I mean „My post shows pore passion than just a fanfiction“, come on haha. I had a blast reading the old skills some of them have been the first skills I used in a mmo ever. Can’t pay for something like that, that’s for sure.

 

[Senqu.8054]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

It is possible to do something similar to gw1 mesmer with gw2 mechanics, as Senqu showed above.
Also remembered Bods idea from like 2017:

That being said, will ANerf ever do it? No. Mesmer is already cried over by every other profession in the pitiful state it is, imagine the qq, a shutdown machine like gw1 mes, would provoke.

Ohh thanks for reminding me, loved that!

 

I can understand why people think this will earn qq but the discussions over power block was really very interesting, and a lot of people said there should be more traits like this in the game. The damage modifier traits are if not the only build defining traits right now and it could really need some more differentiation.
 

And I personally think that nothing of the mentioned above is stronger than power block itself, tbh.

[Salt Mode.3780]

17 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

You shouldn’t be so sensitive. I can’t see anything negative about the post beside I contradicted you or better, answered your question:

 

If you do not like, that I just don’t be overly friendly to you, it’s maybe the fact that you used 3 question marks to end your sentence. But if you wish I could add some smileys 😄

 

Anyways, sure, I wish that the new espec will have more in common with the thematic then the last two. Everyone has some wishes about the new espec, you too. Don’t know what is wrong with that, but maybe you want to explain. I mean „My post shows pore passion than just a fanfiction“, come on haha. I had a blast reading the old skills some of them have been the first skills I used in a mmo ever. Can’t pay for something like that, that’s for sure.

 

Again this post to spite commenting and quite childish and for the record I wasn't trying to be "overly friendly to you" I was being very direct, and it seems like your hopes of GW1 mechanics into GW2 was disagreed upon not only by me but others as well except you took the time to snipe me because I am being more direct then they are. Again you being overly adamant about your post shows that this isn't just a "fantasy" but a genuine passion for this to be implemented into GW2 as I stated previously.

Sorry if I crushed your "dreams" of GW1 mechanic into GW2 when its stated many times it is a completely different game. Again no hard feelings but if you wish to be spiteful then so be it.

I also agree Hex would be difficult to balance around in PvE and PvP game modes, its bad enough when Mesmers were at its weakest state that people still had complaints about them, cannot imagine the player base complaints if Hex was introduced in GW2.

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Senqu.8054]

4 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again this post to spite commenting and quite childish and for the record I wasn't trying to be "overly friendly to you" I was being very direct, and it seems like your hopes of GW1 mechanics into GW2 was disagreed upon not only by me but others as well except you took the time to snipe me because I am being more direct then they are. Again you being overly adamant about your post shows that this isn't just a "fantasy" but a genuine passion for this to be implemented into GW2 as I stated previously.

Sorry if I crushed your "dreams" of GW1 mechanic into GW2 when its stated many times it is a completely different game. Again no hard feelings but if you wish to be spiteful then so be it.

I also agree Hex would be difficult to balance around in PvE and PvP game modes, its bad enough when Mesmers were at its weakest state that people still had complaints about them, cannot imagine the player base complaints if Hex was introduced in GW2.

 

Well, I guess I can’t answer you then? But I will, it’s a Forum, accept that you will get answers if you ask something lol. And what is this all the time with spiteful or childish, what ever? I’m just writing with you over something. Are you so unfamiliar with discussions? If you feel this much attacked by my words then again, please don’t be so sensitive. Im not hurt cause you do not like it, but I’m not in your opinion. In fact i think, that all skills above are less threatening then a trait, that disables every interrupted skill by 15 seconds. And as stated, I never thought that this will make it into game. In fact I think that the devs will never listen to the Mesmer community.

 

And for real, I don’t understand what you want to say with „for the record  I wasn’t trying to be over friendly to you“ 😂 

 

But if you really insist I can also write like you and everything is Gucci?: „what makes you think i am "hurt" because you have something against hexes...???“

Edited June 4, 2021 by Senqu.8054

[Alpha.1308]

On 6/2/2021 at 3:15 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

E-Surge

gonna say no, i do believe it sounds too frustrating dealing with reducing endurance, and also would be worthless in pve

i also had this idea before, with the Exhaustion mechanic in the game already from mirage and daredevil traits, or have a "negative endurance bar" you have to regen like the Skyscale has on its flight bar, but.... no, they're bad for the player using them, they'll be bad if they can be inflicted on enemies, so, i'd have to pass

 

i do believe the new mesmer spec should focus on lots of AoE weakness, however

it is a very strong condition, along with other CC conditions, that i would love to see a "hex" gw1 mesmer play around with more

 

On 6/2/2021 at 3:15 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

Blackout

this is just daze but with more steps 

again sounds useless in pve, you're better off using moa morph for break bars, and open world it'd be too slow

pvp would just be a very long daze

if this was un-stun-break-able.... i mean, maybe, it's kinda neat? but i'm not so sure 

mesmers are already duelists 

we got 2 e-specs focused on dueling....

clones as a mechanic break the entire class, and the devs seem to be too scared of what they can offer

 

could you imagine a pvp scenario where a condi mesmer spawns phantasms, 3 clones, and uses black out?

you get to just sit and watch yourself die if it's un-breakable?

i dunno, i like it in concept, but it just also seems very bad for the game's already declining pvp health

 

On 6/2/2021 at 3:15 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

Illusionary weapons

 

this one

this is the one i've been talking about for years

i've ALWAYS wanted IW to make a come back

but in the form of "kits", or "attunements"

 

please

get rid of our shatters and clones finally in an e-spec like every other class got to move away from their profession mechanic in some way, or added onto it rather than just got nothing or even got a reduction like chrono did, and bring this back as a form of weapon skills

 

with your suggestion on stat swapping... i still just... can't agree with it

that sounds awfully broken to run with a power weapon set and condi set, you'd have too much potential in pvp 

in pve it sounds fine, but... what isn't in pve?

mesmers are already top there in raiding, and open world... well... anything goes there, so, sounds fine for that

 

On 6/2/2021 at 3:15 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

Hex: Price of Pride

 

 

this is... interesting.... but again, lop sided; strong in pvp, worthless in pve

i do kinda like the idea of bringing back pre-emptive interrupts, however 

it's just... elites are on such a long cooldown in the game overall, it's literally limited to only guardians at that point

how else are you actually going to time it against any other class

the duration would have to be super long, or it's beyond "skill based" to the point that 90% of the playerbase would never be able to use it effectively

 

we already have 80% of utility/elite skills in the game that nobody would ever think to touch 

 

 

 

Panic also comes to mind with this idea, if anyone uses something, others in the area get 1/4s daze

this would actually hilariously be a direct counter to mesmers, themselves, as clones and phantasms would affect the player, and vice versa  

 

but, yet again, lopsided to pvp, even worse in wvw, blob fights would be terrible for players, as if it.... isn't already... i mean we have DH LB 5 sooo??? how is that in the game and apparently fine???? so i guess it could work 

 

but, then again, bosses without adds... worthless again 

i suppose it could be added "if nothing else gets dazed, daze self", would slow everything down considerably that you fight in the game, and would also be very strong against breakbars

 

On 6/2/2021 at 3:15 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

Hex: Wastrels Worry

 

this is again just so... weirdly pvp focused 

pve mobs don't use utility skills

and in pvp, this game has no buff bars

we really should avoid too many complicated effects that aren't visible at a glance, you shouldn't have to react to something you don't know is there, gw1 was much more strategic and the buff bar was more important than.... ahem.... bannerfoodbuffbarbooncondispambar

especially just throwing utility skills out of random

maybe if it were anything but your 1 skill?

but even still, i feel like this wouldn't get much value at all to begin with, if this were the case

 

On 6/2/2021 at 3:15 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

Illusion of Weakness

 

i would actually like to see this return as a trait, yes  

could also just be a heal skill, but i'm just not sure how you'd use it effectively in combat 

you'd have to have other heal sources which might make it... weird

being low on health and trying to heal just to kill yourself does not sound rewarding or... good, like, at all

 

could also be a pseudo Continuum Split for your health bar, but... unfortunately we already have Continuum Split, so i can't see it as being that

 

this was a skill that was always on my bar as an illusion mesmer in gw1, everyone else used ether feast as their primary heal source, i would just use this 

i wasn't very good at the game back then, but i really loved its concept

 

 

 

On 6/2/2021 at 3:15 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

Gw1 Mind Wrack

 

again, i'm so concerned with letting something remove endurance 

but this in particular, again, is strange

 

you're basically saying someone could literally kill themselves after dodge rolling

dodge rolling needs to be the safety net, it shouldn't cause you to die 

(side note, nothing should stop dodge rolling, don't @ me, i dislike static/lines/etc being immune to dodge rolls) 

 

as i said, i think the new mesmer should definitely focus on lots of AoE weakness application, however 

this is an extremely powerful condition which fits that need for wanting the enemy to not have endurance, and goes with energy = endurance concept that mesmers used to siphon

 

and it still follows along the line of mesmers being the primary CC in pve in the game's launch concept of no healers, but damage/support/control "trinity", where each player did one better than the other but everyone had all of it 

 

On 6/2/2021 at 3:15 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

Accumulated_Pain

 

i think it's weird having the requirement of these 2 specific conditions to get another effect, but as i said i actually do like the idea of it being a non-damaging-condi focused spec, so, i do like this one

 

i just wanna see shatters/clones removed

remove F2-F4, give us only F1, make it Illusionary Weaponry as an "Attunement" or a "Kit" basically, or make it a ground-target-aoe "hex" effect like Guardian focus 4 "Ray of Judgement", and adjust traits accordingly, with the hex idea, just make the first 3 trait options choose between a CC hex, condi damage hex, or a cooldown reduction hex, so you can't just burst all of them into one go, make summoning phantasms/clones give you charges to it or empower it or something, or for attunements/kits make summoning phantasms change the kit to that type of phantasm, or clones apply a buff or charge or something

 

i just hope we don't have to deal with the liability that is CC/destructible NPC mechanics in our next e-spec

 

there are so many ways they can deal with this, and i'm so afraid they're just going to take the easy way out so they don't have to rework traits 

 

i loved the clones mechanic when the game came out.... but... we need to have an option to not have to deal with them finally, and it's going to be very disappointing for this game to die off after its "last expansion" (not saying it is, i'm saying if it is) without seeing a mesmer not being the NPC class, i mean jfc even rangers got rid of their pets with soulbeast  

Edited June 4, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Jijimuge.4675]

A few more observations -

 

The GW skill Power Spike arguably already exists in a way....just not on mesmer - there's the daredevil trait "Impacting Disruption" that triggers damage when one successfully interrupts a skill use (with a CC skill)

 

The GW skill Power Block is also already in game to an extent.

Once again, however, it's on daredevil - Distracting Daggers .  Of course it's a lesser effect, increasing the recharge of the interrupted skill only.

 

As boons have taken the place of enchantments, one could also think of the GW2 necro's Spinal Shivers as being similar to to Shatter Enchantment from GW

 

Some old GW skills are trivially easy to translate - the hex Imagined Burden is just the GW2 Crippled condition

 

I think what frequently characterises the GW mesmer for me was conditionality (i.e. the mesmer skills would often have an effect if and only if some condition were satisfied) with a focus on control or impairment esp. via imposing dilemmas on the opponent such as the iconic staple of gvg  matches - Diversion .

 

It's difficult to see how skills like that could be translated into GW2 without adding extra mechanics, and IIRC one of the things that Anet had said they wanted to do with GW2 was to simplify and streamline the systems as they were becoming impossible to balance and required a high level of knowledge with a massive range of skills.  All the same, it's an interesting diversion (sorry for the pun) to look at this 🙂

[Senqu.8054]

2 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

gonna say no, i do believe it sounds too frustrating dealing with reducing endurance, and also would be worthless in pve

i also had this idea before, with the Exhaustion mechanic in the game already from mirage and daredevil traits, or have a "negative endurance bar" you have to regen like the Skyscale has on its flight bar, but.... no, they're bad for the player using them, they'll be bad if they can be inflicted on enemies, so, i'd have to pass

 

i do believe the new mesmer spec should focus on lots of AoE weakness, however

it is a very strong condition, along with other CC conditions, that i would love to see a "hex" gw1 mesmer play around with more

 

this is just daze but with more steps 

again sounds useless in pve, you're better off using moa morph for break bars, and open world it'd be too slow

pvp would just be a very long daze

if this was un-stun-break-able.... i mean, maybe, it's kinda neat? but i'm not so sure 

mesmers are already duelists 

we got 2 e-specs focused on dueling....

clones as a mechanic break the entire class, and the devs seem to be too scared of what they can offer

 

could you imagine a pvp scenario where a condi mesmer spawns phantasms, 3 clones, and uses black out?

you get to just sit and watch yourself die if it's un-breakable?

i dunno, i like it in concept, but it just also seems very bad for the game's already declining pvp health

 

this one

this is the one i've been talking about for years

i've ALWAYS wanted IW to make a come back

but in the form of "kits", or "attunements"

 

please

get rid of our shatters and clones finally in an e-spec like every other class got to move away from their profession mechanic in some way, or added onto it rather than just got nothing or even got a reduction like chrono did, and bring this back as a form of weapon skills

 

with your suggestion on stat swapping... i still just... can't agree with it

that sounds awfully broken to run with a power weapon set and condi set, you'd have too much potential in pvp 

in pve it sounds fine, but... what isn't in pve?

mesmers are already top there in raiding, and open world... well... anything goes there, so, sounds fine for that

 

 

this is... interesting.... but again, lop sided; strong in pvp, worthless in pve

i do kinda like the idea of bringing back pre-emptive interrupts, however 

it's just... elites are on such a long cooldown in the game overall, it's literally limited to only guardians at that point

how else are you actually going to time it against any other class

the duration would have to be super long, or it's beyond "skill based" to the point that 90% of the playerbase would never be able to use it effectively

 

we already have 80% of utility/elite skills in the game that nobody would ever think to touch 

 

 

 

Panic also comes to mind with this idea, if anyone uses something, others in the area get 1/4s daze

this would actually hilariously be a direct counter to mesmers, themselves, as clones and phantasms would affect the player, and vice versa  

 

but, yet again, lopsided to pvp, even worse in wvw, blob fights would be terrible for players, as if it.... isn't already... i mean we have DH LB 5 sooo??? how is that in the game and apparently fine???? so i guess it could work 

 

but, then again, bosses without adds... worthless again 

i suppose it could be added "if nothing else gets dazed, daze self", would slow everything down considerably that you fight in the game, and would also be very strong against breakbars

 

this is again just so... weirdly pvp focused 

pve mobs don't use utility skills

and in pvp, this game has no buff bars

we really should avoid too many complicated effects that aren't visible at a glance, you shouldn't have to react to something you don't know is there, gw1 was much more strategic and the buff bar was more important than.... ahem.... bannerfoodbuffbarbooncondispambar

especially just throwing utility skills out of random

maybe if it were anything but your 1 skill?

but even still, i feel like this wouldn't get much value at all to begin with, if this were the case

 

i would actually like to see this return as a trait, yes  

could also just be a heal skill, but i'm just not sure how you'd use it effectively in combat 

you'd have to have other heal sources which might make it... weird

being low on health and trying to heal just to kill yourself does not sound rewarding or... good, like, at all

 

could also be a pseudo Continuum Split for your health bar, but... unfortunately we already have Continuum Split, so i can't see it as being that

 

this was a skill that was always on my bar as an illusion mesmer in gw1, everyone else used ether feast as their primary heal source, i would just use this 

i wasn't very good at the game back then, but i really loved its concept

 

 

 

again, i'm so concerned with letting something remove endurance 

but this in particular, again, is strange

 

you're basically saying someone could literally kill themselves after dodge rolling

dodge rolling needs to be the safety net, it shouldn't cause you to die 

(side note, nothing should stop dodge rolling, don't @ me, i dislike static/lines/etc being immune to dodge rolls) 

 

as i said, i think the new mesmer should definitely focus on lots of AoE weakness application, however 

this is an extremely powerful condition which fits that need for wanting the enemy to not have endurance, and goes with energy = endurance concept that mesmers used to siphon

 

and it still follows along the line of mesmers being the primary CC in pve in the game's launch concept of no healers, but damage/support/control "trinity", where each player did one better than the other but everyone had all of it 

 

i think it's weird having the requirement of these 2 specific conditions to get another effect, but as i said i actually do like the idea of it being a non-damaging-condi focused spec, so, i do like this one

 

i just wanna see shatters/clones removed

remove F2-F4, give us only F1, make it Illusionary Weaponry as an "Attunement" or a "Kit" basically, or make it a ground-target-aoe "hex" effect like Guardian focus 4 "Ray of Judgement", and adjust traits accordingly, with the hex idea, just make the first 3 trait options choose between a CC hex, condi damage hex, or a cooldown reduction hex, so you can't just burst all of them into one go, make summoning phantasms/clones give you charges to it or empower it or something, or for attunements/kits make summoning phantasms change the kit to that type of phantasm, or clones apply a buff or charge or something

 

i just hope we don't have to deal with the liability that is CC/destructible NPC mechanics in our next e-spec

 

there are so many ways they can deal with this, and i'm so afraid they're just going to take the easy way out so they don't have to rework traits 

 

i loved the clones mechanic when the game came out.... but... we need to have an option to not have to deal with them finally, and it's going to be very disappointing for this game to die off after its "last expansion" (not saying it is, i'm saying if it is) without seeing a mesmer not being the NPC class, i mean jfc even rangers got rid of their pets with soulbeast  

Ou Man awesome reply, (also @Jijimuge.4675) nice that you took the time to review everything. Just to read some other thoughts about old Mesmer skills is really exiting for me. I am definitely a kid again when I talk about gw1 (ok SaltMode you are maybe right, if I talk about gw1 i definitely feel like a Child again, heck I even skipped school from time to time with my neighbors to play gw1 but now it gets to nostalgic xD)

 

You are fully right. The most if not all skills I wrote up there have been WvW/PvP oriented. I’m not that imaginative about PvE, that’s true. Don’t know why but this pure dps oriented part of the game is not understandable for me xD.

 

I definitely see the problem with the endurance surge, but I really liked the idea that the enemy is now forced to make the decision whether he dodges a not so important attack to lose endurance so the Mesmer can’t pressure with esurge or accept esurge damage. With the mind Wrack was The same idea. Dodge and take only the final blow of the hex instead of getting permanent damage from it. But as you said maybe dodge should be the safe space for everyone.

 

Where I really have to disagree with you is, I think that it should not be a PvE mob that draws the line between what is possible and what not. This would limit every PvP oriented scenario to much and i personally don’t like the idea to let every possibility down just because an npc is not properly programmed. Yeah I know a lot are disagreeing with me but you could also just change some effects a little bit for PvE so instead of having to use an utility skill the enemy just has to use a skill or something (yeah against bosses not good but some skills are just not good against XY but usefull agains other things. For example no one is using portal vs a boss either or in general in PvE beside the skipping of things)

 

But we surely meet at the non-damaging-condition build 😄  and also at the clone part. Would be nuts if this happened. And funny is, I already played a weakness chrono with power block, this totally useless well (of calamity) and rune of aristocrats. Sadly, after the staff changes, it is not even a meme build anymore. But it was fun for some month cause you played with kitten well of calamity in WvW xD. Let’s wish together 😄

 

( http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?Pi0AYx7lJwwYXMGWJOuP/tOA-zVZYDhABG1H3nhGUI9mCBHEZXBufIETCgQ9wlMWkfcD-w )

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Senqu.8054

[Alpha.1308]

1 hour ago, Senqu.8054 said:

Ou Man awesome reply, nice that you took the time to review everything. Just to read some other thoughts about old Mesmer skills is really exiting for me. I am definitely a kid again when I talk about gw1

i'd like to say i'm also pretty passionate about gaming, especially this game, and this class

so i do take it fairly seriously

 

 

1 hour ago, Senqu.8054 said:

I definitely see the problem with the endurance surge, but I really liked the idea that the enemy is now forced to make the decision whether he dodges a not so important attack to lose endurance so the Mesmer can’t pressure with esurge or accept esurge damage.

that's just not how it'll work, though

even excluding blob fights in wvw where it would be the most ridiculously impactful (unless this is single target... and again, i'm advocating for an AoE spec so mesmers can finally do something in open world and bigger fights that isn't GS ambush)

 

but even just looking at a simple duel, which... again... we really don't need a FOURTH dueling line..........

 

dodging is for avoiding something important

you don't just dodge anything if you're taking the fight seriously

(which again, accounts for, like, what, 20% of the playerbase to begin with)

 

this means that this skill will be used, and they either dodge roll and have only one roll left (excluding sigils/energy/daredevil/etc), or they get hit, and have no endurance at all (unless it's only one bar, in which case

there's no "decision" making there 

it's a lose lose scenario

you dodge, and still lose because it was the only option you had to not lose even more, or you dodge and you lose even more 

 

that just doesn't sound like a "decision", it sounds like a broken pvp skill that has no use anywhere else in the entire game other than 1v1ing, which, again, mesmer at its core was already designed around that with how strong the clones/phantasm mechanics are to begin with

 

even in their description, they're "duelists", it's always been their thing

especs were supposed to change how a class felt

 

1 hour ago, Senqu.8054 said:

I think that it should not be a PvE mob that draws the line between what is possible and what not. This would limit every PvP oriented scenario to much and i personally don’t like the idea to let every possibility down just because an npc is not properly programmed.

 

 

i don't touch even pve, i spend all my time in wvw, but pve is where their game sells, so it has to be kept in mind despite what anyone thinks of it

 

i want the game to do well, and to do so, they need to bring in people and money, and as much as wvw is my favorite game modes in games like this, eso, crowfall, etc, and i feel it needs more love in the gaming community, the simple fact is, it's pve that sells, and anet needs that money to make the game better

 

the devs don't seem interested in separating balance enough other than minor tweaks, so we'd have to work around it, even though, yes, i extremely agree that there should be aggressive separations in abilities between the game modes

 

 

and even in wvw and even spvp, there are still pve mobs that you have to deal with, and you really shouldn't be worthless against them

and no, it's really not too limiting when you look at the dynamic of the game, itself

 

as someone else mentioned, the game is very streamlined to the point (of also possibly lacking, again, gw1 was more strategy dependent, even ignoring "haha damage goes burrr" builds, at least there was more text with abilities) where there aren't many mechanics that you can't just glance at to know what's happening without actually having in-depth knowledge of the ability

 

 

but it still has a huge range of possibilities, even with what we have to work with and with that in mind

 

chronomancer, in particular, had the best opportunity to be such an insanely crazy good mesmer spec in wvw

yet all we have to show for it are minstrel tanks running around being worthless "but muh strip meter", wasting stats and skill/trait slots on padding useless information, just to bring mesmer utility along for the ride, rather than bringing a mesmer for what a mesmer can offer, and still holding your own as a useful slot in a group

 

the wells had huge potential, and they're just wasted on being underwhelming due to nonsensical stuff like pve and point-based small scale pvp 

 

i've been running a GS mirage build to offer the pulls/portals/mass/null field that mesmer can bring, and it can tops charts with not even full glass armor because of how strong that ambush is, but it still feels lacking because of how afraid they are of balancing mesmer around smaller scale fights and pve, and because of how clones and shatters work in larger scale fights vs smaller scale fights, or running with alacrity staff which is..... absolutely asinine considering it should have been a chrono thing

 

both especs we got were almost perfect for 10v10/20v20/30v30 fights, but get bogged down by really poor design decisions, not to mention just simply being afraid of other game modes, and (probably) not wanting to deal with revamping traits to work without shatters/clones/phantasms

 

1 hour ago, Senqu.8054 said:

Would be nuts if this happened.

i don't quite frankly care what they do, so long as it involves removing clones/phantasms from the espec

i doubt it'll happen, but one can only hope to finally not be tethered to the liability that is an NPC mechanic that can be CC'd or killed for THREE, not one, not to, but THREEEEE of our sources of using our abilities:

the main class mechanic, shatters
clones
AND phantasms

 

that's so much being held up by a destructible NPC, especially when it's the entire class mechanic to begin with, and not just something we can opt out of 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[lockhart.6048]

15 hours ago, Jijimuge.4675 said:

A few more observations -

 

The GW skill Power Spike arguably already exists in a way....just not on mesmer - there's the daredevil trait "Impacting Disruption" that triggers damage when one successfully interrupts a skill use (with a CC skill)

 

The GW skill Power Block is also already in game to an extent.

Once again, however, it's on daredevil - Distracting Daggers .  Of course it's a lesser effect, increasing the recharge of the interrupted skill only.

 

As boons have taken the place of enchantments, one could also think of the GW2 necro's Spinal Shivers as being similar to to Shatter Enchantment from GW

 

Some old GW skills are trivially easy to translate - the hex Imagined Burden is just the GW2 Crippled condition

 

I think what frequently characterises the GW mesmer for me was conditionality (i.e. the mesmer skills would often have an effect if and only if some condition were satisfied) with a focus on control or impairment esp. via imposing dilemmas on the opponent such as the iconic staple of gvg  matches - Diversion .

 

It's difficult to see how skills like that could be translated into GW2 without adding extra mechanics, and IIRC one of the things that Anet had said they wanted to do with GW2 was to simplify and streamline the systems as they were becoming impossible to balance and required a high level of knowledge with a massive range of skills.  All the same, it's an interesting diversion (sorry for the pun) to look at this 🙂

 

actually, a better analogy would be Power Lock. Also ironically, GW2 PBlock (a trait) is a mix of PLock and PSpike instead of being actual PBlock.

 

 this is another interesting topic itself because interrupts in GW2 are not as severely punishing as they are in GW1 - which Mesmers and Rangers were both very good at. In GW1, an interrupt would waste someone energy, make the skill go on full cool down and any additional effects the rupt skill did. Being PBlocked is one of the worst feelings in the game.

 

I wonder how fast people would rage if a similar system were implanted

[Justine.6351]

People just want to face tank and mash their buttons, a gw 1 style mesmer would destroy them harder than a power block build already does.

[Leonidrex.5649]

guys guys, chill.
people cant handle kittening C tier power block mesmer, cant you imagine if actual gw1 skills existed? in its gw2 power crept form?
jeez

[Mungrul.9358]

On 6/3/2021 at 1:48 AM, lockhart.6048 said:

Aside from being a completely different game, GW1 Mesmers would legit make people rage quit the game faster than Mirages or Chronomancers did at their prime.

 

I know this because I've been sent death threats using a simple Blackout build in RA or timing a well placed Diversion. Some people quit matches and took the dishonor hit when faced against a good Mesmer.

I used to love doing the same with my evil Domination build in Fort Aspenwood / Jade Quarry.

Favourite targets were monks and eles on the walls of Fort Aspenwood and Necro Bombers in Jade Quarry.

It was hilarious hitting an Ele who was channeling a long cast with Arcane Conundrum, watching them get almost to the end, then interrupting them.

You could here the screams of frustration all the way to Lion's Arch 😄

 

And hitting Frenzy warriors with Empathy was always good for a chuckle too!

 

It was the ultimate troll class, and was just soooo satisfying when you'd see someone immediately disconnect after a fight with you.

I got so good at it, some people who knew my character would see me on the opposing team and leave before the match got started properly 😄

[Yoci.2481]

^^^ And you people wonder why this isn't in GW2. 😅

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

On 6/5/2021 at 8:01 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

guys guys, chill.
people cant handle kittening C tier power block mesmer, cant you imagine if actual gw1 skills existed? in its gw2 power crept form?
jeez

No kidding. As much as I would love to have a GW1-styled Mesmer in GW2...well, imagine the care bears, kicking, screaming, and crying about thief on a minutely basis, and multiply that by 100. Even if it was perfectly balanced, the care bears on these forums always have an anyeurism when they face something that requires an iota of effort, because God Forbid the game is anything except face-rolling your keyboard.

 

A GW1 Style Mesmer would induce an ocean of tears;  too many people would lose to it, because they'd roll their faces across the keyboard as per the norm, and kill themselves. Which would be hilarious, quite honestly, but I'm not sure it's worth turning the entire GW2 forums into a literal salt mine.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047