Ranger feels decrepit, outdated and abandoned.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Ok, that is a legit one. As you mention, long cooldown and cast time, but yeah, it heals over 6,5k to allies. Still think that healing that much on a single skill which would also cleanse 16 conditions from 5 allies (80 conditions in total) on 30 seconds cd is ridiculously broken.

 

Not to mention that he also wants to put the 33% damage reduction from dolyak stance onto bear stance as well. This is one of the most insane suggestions I have read in years.

 

You can do 25 condi clears on 5 people with fumigate every 12 seconds.  Pop over to medkit and heal for absurd amounts.  Want to disengage? Pop sneak gyro for stealth and superspeed.  

 

Somehow full stance share would be 'broken' though...yeah....maybe you want to get back to us when you aren't playing the absolute most broken support class in the game.  

[Kodama.6453]

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You can do 25 condi clears on 5 people with fumigate every 12 seconds.  Pop over to medkit and heal for absurd amounts.  Want to disengage? Pop sneak gyro for stealth and superspeed.  

 

Somehow full stance share would be 'broken' though...yeah....maybe you want to get back to us when you aren't playing the absolute most broken support class in the game.  

Yes, I call 8 seconds of bear stance with added uncorruptable protection+resolution broken. Target me for playing engineer all you want, cleansing 16 conditions per target with one single skill is still ridiculous.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[anduriell.6280]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Yes, I call 8 seconds of bear stance with added uncleansable protection+resolution broken. Target me for playing engineer all you want, cleansing 16 conditions per target with one single skill is still ridiculous.

That's 3 stances which can not be used in another 30s/40s (moa, bear and dolyak) 

 

You keep moving the goal post, now is not the amount of healing or cleanses but what would happen if we use all the stances at the same time. 

 

Sharing 100% is the way it should have been from the very begining, Anet somehow recognized this by increasing the original output by a 25%. 4 years later it is proven it is not enough for squads thou.  It is the most straightfoward solution. 

 

Something i don't understand is why Anet devs like to make the ranger class to have such clunky aspects in most skills and effects, it is like they enjoy making the player's life more difficult with weird limitations. 

 

I have very little hopes they will improve anything for EoD to be honest. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Kodama.6453]

41 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

That's 3 stances which can not be used in another 30s/40s (moa, bear and dolyak) 

 

You keep moving the goal post, now is not the amount of healing or cleanses but what would happen if we use all the stances at the same time. 

 

Sharing 100% is the way it should have been from the very begining, Anet somehow recognized this by increasing the original output by a 25%. 4 years later it is proven it is not enough for squads thou.  It is the most straightfoward solution. 

 

Something i don't understand is why Anet devs like to make the ranger class to have such clunky aspects in most skills and effects, it is like they enjoy making the player's life more difficult with weird limitations. 

 

I have very little hopes they will improve anything for EoD to be honest. 

 

 

Stop saying that I move the goal post, what I stated there was your suggestion for bear stance alone, since you said that you want to move the damage reduction from dolyak stance onto bear stance on top of the 8 seconds duration change.

 

Or are you really not aware of the stuff you are writing? I know that you don't actually read what I am writing at least, since you claimed I "moved the goal post from 5k healing to 6,5k healing", which I never did, I wrote 6,5k from the start.

 

Not sure if this is your reading comprehension or if you are stating wrong stuff on purpose.

[Lazze.9870]

As biased the engie dude might be, 8 seconds shared Bear Stance is a lot. I'd say up the base to 5, make shared duration from trait 100 % and personal duration 125 %.

 

I was gonna keep doing the other stances, but I realise this discussion stems from "Soulbeast in zergs". Shared stances must be buffed to OP levels for soulbeast to be worthwhile when the numbers hit 30ish people. Yes, you can swing around with your GS and cleave like a madman while rooted on axe 5, but most of the time you're gonna be swinging your sword against thin air or having your axe autos be blocked, reflected etc. And excuse me, but if you claim otherwise, you're playing against garbage tier people.

 

Soulbeast doesn't have good enough weapons. That's the one and only problem. Greatsword is good, but should be the weapon you swap into when the groups clash, not the best-in-slot weapon from the get-go. Shared Bear, Dolyak and OWP as they are right now are just as worthwhile to a party as anything a dps core guardian/DH brings.

 

Soulbeast works for GvG sized content. In zergs you might as well spam immob on druid and do some extra healing, it's worth more than the reliable damage you'd do.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Abyssisis.3971]

Leader of the pack should grant stance effect to allies at the same base rate as per relevant game mode as soulbeast has now But rather than extend personal duration, it should provide 20% cooldown reduction.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Abyssisis.3971

[Kodama.6453]

58 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

As biased the engie dude might be, 8 seconds shared Bear Stance is a lot. I'd say up the base to 5, make shared duration from trait 100 % and personal duration 125 %.

Really, I am the biased one? For stating that a skill which heals yourself for 11,5k, heals allies for 6,5k, cleanses 16 conditions on 5 allies (so 80 conditions in total) and reduces both physical and condition damage for 5 allies for 8 seconds (uncorruptible, since it isn't a boon) would be broken?

 

Because that is exactly what anduriell was suggesting. I can't even.... I am the biased one, yeah, sure.....

Edited June 25, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Really, I am the biased one?

 

I agree with you on the bear stance take, so no, that's obviously not why I said you "might be biased". 

 

But biased towards engie in general? Maybe.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Kodama.6453]

5 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

I agree with you on the bear stance take, so no, that's obviously not why I said you "might be biased". 

 

But biased towards engie in general? Maybe.

You realise that engineer is completely irrelevant in a thread about rangers, tho, right? xD

[Lazze.9870]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You realise that engineer is completely irrelevant in a thread about rangers, tho, right? xD

 

In general, yes, but there are comparisons you can make. And if we're strictly talking about the maximun potential of cleansing from one skill, it's not irrelevant that support scrapper is as overtuned as it is. Especially considering scrapper converts a lot of it, the fact that it used to convert all of it is insane.

 

But, that's something druid should compete with. Bear Stance on stereoids isn't a solution to anything. The stance trait should be buffed to provide 100 % of the base duration to allies. That would be enough to make Bear Stance, Dolyak Stance and OWP great for wvw zerging, as they are already okay as is. The problem with soulbeast and zerging is the weapons. GS on swap will always be good, but soulbeast is in dire need of a decent main weapon to dish out damage from a distance. Projectiles aren't reliable enough.

 

The irony would be if the next ranger elite spec comes with a good zerg weapon, but a mechanic that is considerably worse for zerging than what beastmode is. One step forward, two back kind of thing.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Kodama.6453]

45 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

In general, yes, but there are comparisons you can make. And if we're strictly talking about the maximun potential of cleansing from one skill, it's not irrelevant that support scrapper is as overtuned as it is. Especially considering scrapper converts a lot of it, the fact that it used to convert all of it is insane.

 

But, that's something druid should compete with. Bear Stance on stereoids isn't a solution to anything. The stance trait should be buffed to provide 100 % of the base duration to allies. That would be enough to make Bear Stance, Dolyak Stance and OWP great for wvw zerging, as they are already okay as is. The problem with soulbeast and zerging is the weapons. GS on swap will always be good, but soulbeast is in dire need of a decent main weapon to dish out damage from a distance. Projectiles aren't reliable enough.

 

The irony would be if the next ranger elite spec comes with a good zerg weapon, but a mechanic that is considerably worse for zerging than what beastmode is. One step forward, two back kind of thing.

Sure, I absolutely agree that druid should be able to compete with scrapper when it comes to supporting a zerg. Never denied anything like this.

 

I was just talking about the suggestion made by anduriell, which he constantly denied to be overpowered. So I still don't get how me maining engineer has anything to do with the statements I actually made. For the points I discussed, me maining engineer was completely irrelevant, hence why I don't understand why you brought it up. Honestly, the first guys calling me out for that were just ad hominem me.

[Obtena.7952]

Playing other classes doesn't make someone biased against Ranger. That's just stupid. 

 

Ranger got some issues, but they aren't as hard done by as the 'unbiased' pro-ranger people in this thread would have you think. If anything, most of the complaints are based on the fact that people don't like pet-based mechanics ... yet still choose to play a pet-based class. Um, OK. 🙄

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

18 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Yes, I call 8 seconds of bear stance with added uncorruptable protection+resolution broken. Target me for playing engineer all you want, cleansing 16 conditions per target with one single skill is still ridiculous.

 

Just like superspeed is uncorruptable? Or the fact that Purity of Purpose is uncorruptable and CONVERTS how many condis on a group again?

 

I know you are latching on to the bear / dolyak combo suggestion here, but your first post in this topic was this:

 

On 6/23/2021 at 2:21 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

Honestly, I think the zerg stuff has more to do with stigma (majority of people think ranger has no use there, so they don't want them).

The stances from soulbeast can be quite powerful and there is a trait to share them, yet soulbeasts are frowned on in zergs.

 

I mean, Dolyak stance is an uncleansable protection+resolution, plus a slightly worse resistance (immunity to movement impairing conditions).

Bear stance cleanses tons of conditions from you and allies while healing them as well.

 

You were already commenting how stance share is 'very powerful' based on what seems is only reading the wiki (ranger being unwanted in a zerg is just a 'stigma', really?). 

 

Then somehow seem to forget this over the topic when people start comparing medkit scrapper to soulbeast with stance share (i.e. I dunno why people are commenting must be ad hominem).

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Playing other classes doesn't make someone biased against Ranger. That's just stupid. 

 

Ranger got some issues, but they aren't as hard done by as the 'unbiased' pro-ranger people in this thread would have you think. If anything, most of the complaints are based on the fact that people don't like pet-based mechanics ... yet still choose to play a pet-based class. Um, OK. 🙄

 

 

Many of us picked ranger for its flexibility in 1v1 scenario, a talent that has been downgraded greatly with time since I started the profession years ago. Originally an ele, around 2015 the class became too painful to play full time, there was an epidemic of necromancers, recently buffed , ele got hard nerfed that time (never recovered from that) and the ranged combat of ranger with Druid made me fall in love with GW2 all over again as I was finally able to trash those OP reapers( lol, in a sense they're still are, necro is still one of the most busted class design I ever seen in a videogame).

 

So to answer your question : ranged combat is what attracts most people to the class, surely the kitten condi melee aoe PBaoe has not gone anywhere if anything it got worst so...here I am still enjoying ranger, turning the life of all those condi kitten tanks into a literal living hell  (yes I freaky hate condi specs, low effort BS gameplay).

 

The pet mechanic is badly implemented, should have never been forced as main mechanic, it should have been left as choice as it was in GW1. Now the way this game is structured, the only way for people to use something it must provide damage or CC or support, efficiently and often. The class now is stuck with a mechanic that receives constantly nerfs and it's becoming borderline useless even though it's the kitten class mechanic they added, people may complain about pet but ofc....nobody here signed up to go out there while using a dead and useless mechanic so.....

 

Yes ranger is indeed strong and flexible but it still pale in comparison to engi; the sb stances are really good utilities but they're not better than gyros, elixir s, elixir gun, healing turret etc etc etc

[Kodama.6453]

12 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Just like superspeed is uncorruptable? Or the fact that Purity of Purpose is uncorruptable and CONVERTS how many condis on a group again?

It seems you missed my point there. That the damage reduction is uncorruptable wasn't the main point I was trying to get across there, the main point was that with these changes bear stance would combine immense selfheal, big group healing, extreme condition cleanse and good damage reduction all in one single ability.

 

And this is just overloading the skill way too much.

Superspeed is uncorruptable, yes, and maybe this is worth a seperate discussion, you can make a thread for this if you please. However, this doesn't have to do with the point that was discussed there which actually is related to the topic of this thread: this suggestion from anduriell was overloading bear stance to an extreme level, more than can be justified for the sake of balance.

 

Purity of purpose has been problematic, yes, hence why it got nerfed recently to just convert 1 condition per ally every 2 seconds.

Also I don't know what you mean with "purity of purpose is uncorruptable" in the first place. All the trait does is providing boons... which ARE corruptable. But let's move on.

 

16 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You were already commenting how stance share is 'very powerful' based on what seems is only reading the wiki (ranger being unwanted in a zerg is just a 'stigma', really?). 

Yes, I think it is mostly stigma. I saw stance soulbeast performing pretty well in zergs, because of the strength of their stances. As someone mentioned above, ranger might be in need of help in zergs, but I don't think stances are the thing to change here, since they already bring quite some powerful stuff. Improving weapons for this environment, as mentioned by Lazze, might be the better approach.

 

18 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Then somehow seem to forget this over the topic when people start comparing medkit scrapper to soulbeast with stance share

Read the discussion again, please. The reason why I didn't accept this comparison with medkit scrapper was because anduriell was trying to sell his bear stance rework idea as balanced, since "medkit scrapper can cleanse more".

 

Yes, medkit scrapper can cleanse more, since the entire build is basically focused on cleansing and healing. Medkit scrapper uses medkit, elixir gun, purge gyro, which are all seperated skills bringing condition cleanse.

 

This build also runs multiple traits which either cleanse conditions or improve your condition cleanse with additional effects, here is a list of traits related to this which medkit scrapper use:

Cleansing synergy, reconstruction enclosure, over shield, anticorrosion plating, comeback cure, purity of purpose

 

Just because this entire build is a really heavy condi cleanser in total does not justify a single skill like bear stance to get to cleanse 16 conditions from 5 people all on it's own.

If scrapper condi cleanse is OP in your eyes, fine, you can discuss this in another topic. This one here was about ranger improvements and I was just pointing out that this suggestion provided there is not going to happen since it is just ridiculously OP. Scrapper being OP does not change anything about this.

 

25 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

(i.e. I dunno why people are commenting must be ad hominem).

Maybe you should read again what you have written just a bit before:

19 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

maybe you want to get back to us when you aren't playing the absolute most broken support class in the game.

This is a textbook example of ad hominem. You are trying to discredit the points I make with the statement "you don't get to talk, you play engineer!", which is completely unrelated to the topic at hand.

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Yes ranger is indeed strong and flexible but it still pale in comparison to engi; the sb stances are really good utilities but they're not better than gyros, elixir s, elixir gun, healing turret etc etc etc

OK so  ... play engi then. I mean, the answer is always going to the be the same. If you think Engi is a better class because of all these great utilities they have and that's what you are looking for when choosing a class, then the answer is obvious for what you should be doing. 

 

See, really here is the problem ... if people play classes they don't like, then the data Anet has to tell them to change undesirable classes doesn't exist. All's they see is people still playing class X at this much ... and if that much doesn't indicate 'undesirable' then it doesn't get the attention it might require. You want change? OK, then be HONEST with yourself and play the classes that fit your criteria for how you want to play. If EVERYONE did that, then the classes that are TRULY in need of things to make them more attractive to players would get attention. 

 

People just don't realize how irrelevant these comparisons between classes are ... the REAL indicator is what people are actually playing, which is something Anet can actually see with looking at stats. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

32 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It seems you missed my point there. That the damage reduction is uncorruptable wasn't the main point I was trying to get across there, the main point was that with these changes bear stance would combine immense selfheal, big group healing, extreme condition cleanse and good damage reduction all in one single ability.

 

Literally nothing that other classes don't already have, and ranger can have right now if they hit the two stances at once. 

 

Which is why I don't understand fixating on this...you already get all of this but at a 50% duration, even if you combined the two stances into one and made it 100% duration no one would care because there are far superior options.

 

Also Ad Hominem is a personal attack, saying you play the most broken support class in the game is an observation that your perspective may be tinted from being at the top end of things, which is not a personal attack.  I'd literally say anyone who mains engi should not be going in other class forums and suggesting anything unless it is equally valuable to what an engi itself can provide.  

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

33 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK so  ... play engi then. I mean, the answer is always going to the be the same. If you think Engi is a better class because of all these great utilities they have and that's what you are looking for when choosing a class, then the answer is obvious for what you should be doing. 

 

See, really here is the problem ... if people play classes they don't like, then the data Anet has to tell them to change undesirable classes doesn't exist. All's they see is people still playing class X at this much ... and if that much doesn't indicate 'undesirable' then it doesn't get the attention it might require. You want change? OK, then be HONEST with yourself and play the classes that fit your criteria for how you want to play. If EVERYONE did that, then the classes that are TRULY in need of things to make them more attractive to players would get attention. 

 

People just don't realize how irrelevant these comparisons between classes are ... the REAL indicator is what people are actually playing, which is something Anet can actually see with looking at stats. 

 

You do realize that most people pick ranger because the pet and nothing to do with how well it performs?

 

So saying 'play something else so anet notices' means nothing because the vast majority of players will still choose ranger so they can stand in PvE at 1500 with a LB while they roleplay being Legolas?

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You do realize that most people pick ranger because the pet and nothing to do with how well it performs?

And that's fine to ... I mean whatever your criteria is to choose a class, just be honest with yourself and choose accordingly. If you want performance and Ranger doesn't give you the performance you want ... don't pick it. If some people's criteria is "I like pet classes" then it makes sense they choose Ranger. 

 

I mean, if you think Anet isn't aware of how much builds get played, you simply aren't staying informed with what they say in patch notes. I suggest you go inform yourself. If you are suggesting people have a bias to choosing ranger just because 'pet' class, then you just aren't applying your logic equally to the other classes for the same kind of 'theme' bias for choosing a class. IN otherwords, EVERY class has a segment of players that choose it for theme, so Ranger is not unique in this regard. 

 

What's your excuse for playing Ranger if you don't like it? What is YOUR criteria for choosing to play Ranger?

Edited June 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kodama.6453]

21 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Literally nothing that other classes don't already have

It IS something other classes don't have. Show me a single skill in GW2 which heals the caster by 11,5k, 4 allies around them by 6,5k (both WITHOUT any investment in healing power), cleanses 16 conditions from all allies affected and reduces physical and condition damage on all of them by 33%. There is not a single ability which does all this stuff on such a high level at once!

23 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

ranger can have right now if they hit the two stances at once.

No, ranger can't have this by hitting both stances at once. Because bear stance doesn't last 8 fricking seconds on allies, which is what enables this ridiculous condi cleanse (since bear stance cleanses 2 conditions every second it is active) and healing (since bear stance heals for every condition removed).

 

But even if ranger could get these effects by using both stances at once, that still means you invested 2 cooldowns instead of 1, which matters.

 

This is basic knowledge for MMOs. There is such thing as opportunity cost, if you have to take 2 skills in your bar for an effect or 1 skill in your bar for the very same effect combined, then the version using just the one skill will mostly be superior. Because it opens up another slot to take another skill, while still getting the same benefits from both skills. Invested cooldowns and skill slots matter.

26 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Which is why I don't understand fixating on this...you already get all of this but at a 50% duration, even if you combined the two stances into one and made it 100% duration no one would care because there are far superior options.

Already explained these points before, but let's make it clear again, just to make sure you get it.

 

Yes, you get the stuff on 2 different skills with 50% duration. The duration of the stances directly correlates with their strength. If bear stance lasts longer, it becomes more powerful, since it cleanses more conditions and heals more for the same cooldown investment.

 

Slot investment also matters, so getting the same effect combined in one skill is stronger than having the effects on 2 seperate skills you have to invest a slot for each.

 

And about no one caring if these would get 100% duration and get combined: obviously, there are people who care, since other people agreed with me that this goes way too far and also the reaction markers indicate it.

 

30 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Also Ad Hominem is a personal attack, saying you play the most broken support class in the game is an observation that your perspective may be tinted from being at the top end of things, which is not a personal attack.  I'd literally say anyone who mains engi should not be going in other class forums and suggesting anything unless it is equally valuable to what an engi itself can provide.  

Ad hominem is not a personal attack per se....

Here are some takes from the wiki about ad hominem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

"Contrary to popular belief, merely insulting someone is not a fallacious ad hominem."

 

Specifically the ergo decedo variant of ad hominem:

 

"Ergo decedo', Latin for "therefore leave" or "then go off", a truncation of argumentum ergo decedo, also known as the traitorous critic fallacy,^[15] denotes responding to the criticism of a critic by implying that the critic is motivated by undisclosed favorability or affiliation to an out-group, rather than responding to the criticism itself. The fallacy implicitly alleges that the critic does not appreciate the values and customs of the criticized group or is traitorous, and thus suggests that the critic should avoid the question or topic entirely, typically by leaving the criticized group"

[Infusion.7149]

40 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You do realize that most people pick ranger because the pet and nothing to do with how well it performs?

 

So saying 'play something else so anet notices' means nothing because the vast majority of players will still choose ranger so they can stand in PvE at 1500 with a LB while they roleplay being Legolas?

FTFY
That's what they do in WvW too. I killed someone the other day without attacking, all I did was put up a reflect.

---

On 6/23/2021 at 1:27 PM, frareanselm.1925 said:

Fighting melee with the ranger in front of an enemy zerg is like puting yourself in front of a train, melee ranger attacks are good for skirmishing, roaming, not for attacking zergs.

Don't run berserker gear and stay merged. Run wilderness survival.

People can run marauder elementalist , berserker / marauder warriors, and berserker reapers and you're telling me you can't stay alive on a soulbeast?

---

Anyway if you want real changes to be beneficial in WvW, they should have a way to stow pet in WvW for druids/core rangers. In addition , astral force should be rebalanced for the Feb 2020 competitive split.
None of these stance suggestions should be implemented since soulbeast already sees play everywhere.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Dami.5046]

 The thing is. Does Anet really want the class hate? A new guy makes a ranger say, goes into WvW as you do and then gest told ' bring a proper class'  Are they really thinking it's ok for you to be bullied into having to do that? 

It's fine for someone, like me, who *was* willing to learn and gear other classes, but it's not very newbie friendly.

They must know the issues some classes have in the game but they seem to do nothing about it. 

Balance shouldn't just be about nerfs and buffs but how the class fits in the game as a whole- Surely all classes should be able to play whatever mode they wish? 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Dami.5046

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Dami.5046 said:

 The thing is. Does Anet really want the class hate? A new guy makes a ranger say, goes into WvW as you do and then gest told ' bring a proper class'  Are they really thinking it's ok for you to be bullied into having to do that? 

It's fine for someone, like me, who *was* willing to learn and gear other classes, but it's not very newbie friendly.

They must know the issues some classes have in the game but they seem to do nothing about it. 

Balance shouldn't just be about nerfs and buffs but how the class fits in the game as a whole- Surely all classes should be able to play whatever mode they wish? 

 

 

As I posted in another thread by rangers wanting to WvW, they just need to play soulbeast because Arenanet hasn't created a way to stow pet. Without stow pet you can't stealth push: this has been relevant in 2012 and still relevant now. Also any overflow boons/buffs get taken by the pet.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

39 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It IS something other classes don't have. Show me a single skill in GW2 which heals the caster by 11,5k, 4 allies around them by 6,5k (both WITHOUT any investment in healing power), cleanses 16 conditions from all allies affected and reduces physical and condition damage on all of them by 33%. There is not a single ability which does all this stuff on such a high level at once!

No, ranger can't have this by hitting both stances at once. Because bear stance doesn't last 8 fricking seconds on allies, which is what enables this ridiculous condi cleanse (since bear stance cleanses 2 conditions every second it is active) and healing (since bear stance heals for every condition removed).

 

All this is great except if you run into power builds it heals for practically nothing.  Essentially your entire argument is hinging on an overtuned suggestion and specific scenarios.  

 

Even at current time, Bear stance lasts for 3 seconds on allies if shared, and absolutely no one is going to notice the extra 1.2k healing or whatever it is if it cleansed constantly.  You can puke out that kind of healing by spamming 1 on engi medkit--a topic which you are dancing around.  

 

Anyway, tell me, when is the last time you noticed stance ranger in a group or were requested to bring one for group content? Since stance ranger (according to your argument) is perfectly capable of replacing other support classes in a group (because remember not being wanted in a group is a stigma). Screenshot or video evidence would be nice.  

 

Because if we take the overtuning out (the combining of stance effects) and just pump up stances to full duration on allies, there is no conceivable way you can prove that is anyway OP given the current state of the game.  

[Kodama.6453]

20 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

All this is great except if you run into power builds it heals for practically nothing.  Essentially your entire argument is hinging on an overtuned suggestion and specific scenarios. 

Now let me use that argument for medkit scrapper, since you are so adamant about bringing this one up: purity of purpose was legit doing nothing at all as long as you run into power builds. Does this mean we should revert the nerf, since it does nothing against power?

 

We are talking zerg scenario here. Condis WILL be present, it is unavoidable. And that means there is a high likelihood that the condition cleanse and additional healing from bear stance will come to fruition in zerg scenarios. If you deny this, then please, advocate to unnerf purity of purpose, that poor thing doesn't do anything anyway, right?

 

(And before you use this against me: no, I don't think purity of purpose should be unnerfed, just because I main engi. I was just using your argument here to show you that the scenario is not as highly situational as you are making it out to be.)

 

20 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Even at current time, Bear stance lasts for 3 seconds on allies if shared, and absolutely no one is going to notice the extra 1.2k healing or whatever it is if it cleansed constantly.  You can puke out that kind of healing by spamming 1 on engi medkit--a topic which you are dancing around. 

Yes, you can "puke" this healing out with medkit. On a dedicated support build. Keep in mind, with the 3 seconds it is 1,2k healing without any healing power or other healing modifiers.

 

You are comparing a build completely dedicated to healing with something that is not. Stance soulbeasts are not primary healers, if you want to go heal as a ranger, you would go druid, not soulbeast. Soulbeast will not be on par with dedicated healer builds, yes. This does not mean that a skill can not be overloaded and too strong by itself, just because this one skill doesn't make you singlehandedly compete with entire builds dedicated to the same task.

20 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Anyway, tell me, when is the last time you noticed stance ranger in a group or were requested to bring one for group content? Since stance ranger (according to your argument) is perfectly capable of replacing other support classes in a group (because remember not being wanted in a group is a stigma). Screenshot or video evidence would be nice.  

I guess you mean zergs in WvW, because in PvE, I see soulbeasts a ton in group content.

 

And as I already stated, I didn't say that this makes soulbeast a support replacement. A skill can still be overloaded and too strong, even if the class as a whole doesn't end up as a primary support.

 

I am not opposed to making rangers more wanted in zergs, I am opposed against the idea of making stances apply their full duration on allies. Make druid a better support for zergs (there have been quite some suggestions in the past to accomplish that), rework ranger weapons to give them something they can bring as a frontline bruiser soulbeast while buffing their allies with stances, anything like this.

20 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Because if we take the overtuning out (the combining of stance effects) and just pump up stances to full duration on allies, there is no conceivable way you can prove that is anyway OP given the current state of the game.  

I can't prove that it is OP, correct, that is impossible. I can make an estimate on that, tho. And in my opinion, this is not needed, stances are fine, there are other parts in ranger which need work to make them better in zerg fights.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Kodama.6453