Please revive Firebrand without breaking it - 3 small adjustments

[GuriGashi.5617]

Many know Firebrand wasn‘t already in the best shape in PvP and the recent mantra mechanic changes have put it into an even worse spot, to the point where even trying it in ranked gets met with alot of toxicity.

As Firebrand has shown itself to be problematic in the past, I won‘t ask for extreme buffs, just 3 changes to make the spec at least playable:

 

Mantra of Flames - as the Mantra has lost it‘s final charge, which provided 3 stacks of burn, it would be great to see the burn duration of the one stack it provides now increased from 2s to 4s. It would technically still apply less burn than before the Mantra rework.

 

Mantra of Solace - again, not asking for a buff, just for its original heal of around 4500HP to be split up among the 3 charges, as even before the last rework it was considered weak. 200HP per charge is far too little. I could spam all three charges right now and would get less heal than a few ticks of regeneration offers.

 

Stoic Demeanor - Permeating Wrath together with Loremaster was a pretty bursty and degenerate way of applying burns through the usage of AoE spam, so how about pushing for a more sustained and direct variant of applying burn - through the other grandmaster trait Stoic Demeanor (burn on CC‘s), as CC‘s can‘t be easily spammed. An increase of the burn applied from 2s to 4s would be very appreciated.

 

I very much believe these changes would make Firebrand playable without being too overpowered or straight up delusional and think nerfs shouldn‘t go as far as to make entire specs unplayable. Would love to hear what you guys have to say.

Edited June 30, 2021 by snoow.1694

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

These all sound reasonable. Specs all deserve to have their utilities be functional. 

 

[Kuma.1503]

I don't think these changes are too much to ask.

 

Mantra of flame should probably deal more damage than an auto attack. 

 

Mantra of Solace's current heal scaling feels less like an intentional nerf and more like an oversight. Like they forgot about the previous change they did where they added more weight to the final charge. 

 

Overall, I think it's best to avoid giving them too much pressure because Firebrand dips heavily into utility, but when they do spec into it, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a semi-relevant dps increase. 

[Arheundel.6451]

5 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I don't think these changes are too much to ask.

 

Mantra of flame should probably deal more damage than an auto attack. 

 

Mantra of Solace's current heal scaling feels less like an intentional nerf and more like an oversight. Like they forgot about the previous change they did where they added more weight to the final charge. 

 

Overall, I think it's best to avoid giving them too much pressure because Firebrand dips heavily into utility, but when they do spec into it, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a semi-relevant dps increase. 

I thought the community was against instant dmg utilities with no tell....at least I remember arcane skills being nerfed behind any possible use

[Ragnar.4257]

While these changes would be a step in the right direction, they'd still only bring FB up from D-tier to C-tier.

 

To bring it back up to B/A-tier, the other piece of the puzzle is tomes. For those not familiar with guardian, allow me to explain. Guardian is **heavily** dependent on the inter-play between its core traitlines to work. If you want to do damage, you pick Radiance, but in order to get any value out of Radiance you need to also pick either Zeal or Virtues for the Retal/Resol uptime. You also have to pick at least one of either Honor or Valor in order to live more than 3 seconds, and if you want to be actually tanky then you have to pick both. All of this means that giving up a core traitline is **extremely** detrimental, none of the traits in the FB traitline are in any way shape or form an acceptable substitute. From a trait perspective, picking FB is a downgrade from Core. But this was supposed to be an acceptable trade-off because Tomes were a significant upgrade from core virtues. By gimping tomes, there is no justifiable reason to pick FB over Core. I also cannot emphasise enough how much of a downgrade moving from instant-cast virtues to tomes with 2+ second cast-times is. Losing the ability to use VoJ during a combo, or to use VoC while CC'd, or VoR the instant you get smacked with a big pile of burning/torment, is a massive downgrade.

 

ToJ is still pretty good, no changes needed. Yes losing insta-cast VoJ sucks, but what you get back in exchange is worth it for certain builds.

 

ToR is total garbage, there's no circumstance under which it is worth using. In the time it takes to cast the various skills you will invariably end up taking more damage or get more condis applied to you than you heal/cleanse. It either needs its cast-times dramatically trimmed, or else some of the heal-scaling returned. It is hugely inferior to core insta-cast VoR, when the whole point of FB is supposed to be that you give up a crucial core traitline in exchange for better virtues.

 

ToC was okay, until the Resistance change. Now it is utterly pointless to use, outside of the very niche circumstance of getting sniped by a SlB/DE. If Resistance is going to stay the way it is, then at least give back some duration to the Stability on ToC. Going through multiple cast-times just to get 1s stability is a joke. Bump that up to 3s, and give back the Aegis on ToC#2, and maybe it'll be worth using again. The alternative would be to bring the cooldown for ToC way down, but I wouldn't want that; it'd make the spec way too spammy, I'd rather have high-impact with high cooldown.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Stand The Wall.6987]

make cleanse mantra clear 2 condis again and revert some tome nerfs. increase purging flames radius and decrease heal bow duration.

everyone complains about heal mantra, but if you take aegis heal trait like you're supposed to, it ends up healing for just as much as other heals but with aoe aegis potential.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

no keep fb as is and nerf scourge to be even worse. pvp is better without these aoe spamming power crept monstrosities

[Crab Fear.1624]

14 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

no keep fb as is and nerf scourge to be even worse. pvp is better without these aoe spamming power crept monstrosities

Agreed.

[Crab Fear.1624]

2 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

make cleanse mantra clear 2 condis again and revert some tome nerfs. increase purging flames radius and decrease heal bow duration.

everyone complains about heal mantra, but if you take aegis heal trait like you're supposed to, it ends up healing for just as much as other heals but with aoe aegis potential.

No buffs to FB at all homie, none, zero, zip, nada. Time to cross your chest homie, RIP, adios, goodbye.

 

 

[Diswan.8156]

I like the proposed changes, lets not forget mantra of liberation which should increase stability for 2 secs instead of 1 and mantra of potence with just 1 sec of quickness which should also be 2.

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

No buffs to FB at all homie, none, zero, zip, nada. Time to cross your chest homie, RIP, adios, goodbye.

 

 

why are people playing core over fb?

[Unknown.6851]

4 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

no keep fb as is and nerf scourge to be even worse. pvp is better without these aoe spamming power crept monstrosities

Says a burn weaver main, what???

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, noobfest.2180 said:

Says a burn weaver main, what???

lol i mained weaver for 1 season and played sword lr more than anything 🤣😅😆😂. Youre just mad that something counters blind thief 😭😢😱😰.

[Crab Fear.1624]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

why are people playing core over fb?

I'm willing to make a fool of myself.

 

Are you looking a support FB?

 

I use this one:

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAYl7lZwyYYsL2Im0WavdA-z5YXGJUBVnCqOA

[GuriGashi.5617]

21 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

While these changes would be a step in the right direction, they'd still only bring FB up from D-tier to C-tier.

 

To bring it back up to B/A-tier, the other piece of the puzzle is tomes. For those not familiar with guardian, allow me to explain. Guardian is **heavily** dependent on the inter-play between its core traitlines to work. If you want to do damage, you pick Radiance, but in order to get any value out of Radiance you need to also pick either Zeal or Virtues for the Retal/Resol uptime. You also have to pick at least one of either Honor or Valor in order to live more than 3 seconds, and if you want to be actually tanky then you have to pick both. All of this means that giving up a core traitline is **extremely** detrimental, none of the traits in the FB traitline are in any way shape or form an acceptable substitute. From a trait perspective, picking FB is a downgrade from Core. But this was supposed to be an acceptable trade-off because Tomes were a significant upgrade from core virtues. By gimping tomes, there is no justifiable reason to pick FB over Core. I also cannot emphasise enough how much of a downgrade moving from instant-cast virtues to tomes with 2+ second cast-times is. Losing the ability to use VoJ during a combo, or to use VoC while CC'd, or VoR the instant you get smacked with a big pile of burning/torment, is a massive downgrade.

 

ToJ is still pretty good, no changes needed. Yes losing insta-cast VoJ sucks, but what you get back in exchange is worth it for certain builds.

 

ToR is total garbage, there's no circumstance under which it is worth using. In the time it takes to cast the various skills you will invariably end up taking more damage or get more condis applied to you than you heal/cleanse. It either needs its cast-times dramatically trimmed, or else some of the heal-scaling returned. It is hugely inferior to core insta-cast VoR, when the whole point of FB is supposed to be that you give up a crucial core traitline in exchange for better virtues.

 

ToC was okay, until the Resistance change. Now it is utterly pointless to use, outside of the very niche circumstance of getting sniped by a SlB/DE. If Resistance is going to stay the way it is, then at least give back some duration to the Stability on ToC. Going through multiple cast-times just to get 1s stability is a joke. Bump that up to 3s, and give back the Aegis on ToC#2, and maybe it'll be worth using again. The alternative would be to bring the cooldown for ToC way down, but I wouldn't want that; it'd make the spec way too spammy, I'd rather have high-impact with high cooldown.

I agree with you to be honest, I feel the same when it comes to tomes and ToR and ToC for sure need a rework, but I am not sure if ArenaNet would be willing to go as far as to buff them, this is why I asked for these small changes, in order to at least make it playable and from that point on ArenaNet could further balance. But I 100% agree with your opinion, pretty much with every point your brought up.

In general I feel there is something extremely wrong with Guardian elite specs in PvP, when one does only work by exploiting Trapper Runes and the other one is straight up unplayable

 

[Gashi.4327]

If Anet gave us exactly that in the next PvP balance patch, I would kiss their feet

[GuriGashi.5617]

19 hours ago, Gashi.4327 said:

If Anet gave us exactly that in the next PvP balance patch, I would kiss their feet

Honestly, after what went down yesterday in the 2v2 event, we would need a balance patch this week to at least save the Tournament of Legends from what is happening right now in this meta.

Many suspect a balance patch next week, which in my opinion would be too late when the most exciting PvP events in a while get all ruined

[GuriGashi.5617]

Short reminder, if tomorrow is a balance patch. Pweese Anet UwU thanx x3334

[Aeolus.3615]

 

 

 

isnt mantra of flame  already 4s??

Edited July 12, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[GuriGashi.5617]

52 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

 

 

isnt mantra of flame  already 4s??

No it is 2s in PvP and does really underwhelming damage, tested it alot in the past weeks

[Aeolus.3615]

16 minutes ago, snoow.1694 said:

No it is 2s in PvP and does really underwhelming damage, tested it alot in the past weeks

 

I guess its a Firebrand then :P, meanwhile some classes have quite heavy towars burn and other conditions .

 

but fire brand means half burn :P,  tição is the translation in my language to Fire brand wich  is the act of burn somehting lightly 😛

 

 

humm  small ticks but longer duration it actually makes sense.... imo FB should even put enemy branded when cleasing condis from alies.....actually most reason ive droped guard and FB enirelly was the traits are on a very poor taste and quality 😞

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Kanto.2485]

On 6/30/2021 at 3:50 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

make cleanse mantra clear 2 condis again and revert some tome nerfs. increase purging flames radius and decrease heal bow duration.

everyone complains about heal mantra, but if you take aegis heal trait like you're supposed to, it ends up healing for just as much as other heals but with aoe aegis potential.

The aegis trait has been nerfed so much that even with it healing isn't even comparable to other heal skills (with 500 healing power it's [250+600]x3=2550 heal), to the point you'd rather play receive the light, heal yourself and allies more and even get 2 AoE cleanses if you manage to finish the cast. The current meta is very spammy in terms of number of hits so you'll rarely block significant amounts of dmg with your aegis.

So long as the mantra doesn't heal like 1k (with healing power) or the aegis heal trait gets buffed, it won't make sense to play it.

Regarding mantra of truth and flame, i agree that as they are instcasts they shouldn't deal much dmg, but what they deal right now is ridicously low, they could at least add some actual utility to them (not 1s condis). The elite mantra has 1s stab on a 45 sec recharge time XD

But i agree that the most urgent change is for f2 and f3 skills to be made useful again. It would also be nice for the fb traitline to do something else other than giving quickness, the mantra recharge trait is trash in pvp because mantras are trash, the boon on tome skills and extra tome skills ones are trash because tome skills are trash, the axe trait you take only if you are playing a hard cc spam build with the hammer trait, same goes for stoic demeanor, and the quickfire trait has been bad since it was released since the other one ends up giving you more burning via the broken f1 passive burn thing that you lose without it. Even the mandatory traits you get literally just give you quickness and a buff to stats while you have quickness, making it even worse to chose something other than quickness. The quickness on tome thing and quickfire need to be changed into literally anything else. Also it's absurd that the only decent way for the class to get cleanses is by picking 4 shouts with the trait and trooper rune, the cleanse mantra need to cleanse 2 condis again to allow for other utilities to be picked. People are fast to cry about fb in this thread, but with supports being nerfed to the ground and no good AoE cleanses available suddenly there's a scourge problem, how surprising huh?

Edited July 15, 2021 by Kanto.2485
typo