Removal of Reflect

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

What makes you think there's then any advantage to running melee if the attacks will then be blocked regardless?  The way I see it then is that the only viable tactic is to only ever run full ranger comps from what would otherwise be overwhelming tactical advantage.

 

Reflects/deflects are an essential part of the game, because if they're removed, there would be no reason to play melee unless it dealt substantially more damage/ranged dealt substantially less.

True ... how about we suggest Anet remove reflects ... and nerf all ranged weapon damage at range 600 or less?

Edited July 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Salt Mode.3780]

Why is this thread even being made? How about instead of removing reflect learn what classes reflect and what it looks like instead of removing a whole mechanic from the game just because it does not suit your taste. There is a reason why all professions have melee and ranged weapon if they are reflecting then simply use melee weapons instead of going pew pew in range. 

 

There is higher risk fighting melee then there is range.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Obtena.7952]

51 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Why is this thread even being made?

Because there are people that just want to camp ranged weapons without consequence. Unfortunately, they have a penchant for complaining when they are outplayed because they don't know where their weapon swap button is and what melee weapons are.  

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Wow, is all I have to say.  I knew longbow hate was a thing, but didn't realize it was a 10-page thread kind of hate.  

 

Most of you seemingly do not play ranger, because 'swap to melee' is literally the worst suggestion possible for this.  Specifically because sword skill activations are far too long (making the evades borderline useless) and greatsword is pretty much a kiting tool unless you run very tanky.  

 

As for unblockables, they took all of them away.  Signet of the Hunt is about as useful as a 300s CD passive at this point, so bringing it up shows extreme lack of playtime on the class.

 

So to counter it leaves the build everyone hates--immob shortbow.  Because good luck blocking/reflecting/etc. the shortbow, one way or another you are going down unless you have a LOT of cleanse.  The most spammable and least thoughtful build is also the most effective--sounds about right for GW2.  

[Salt Mode.3780]

Sorry its not a hate towards longbow its called learn to utilize your class to the fullest potential which includes weaving into melee weapons. I am pretty sure what you just stated is laughed off by SO many boonbeast which is currently a dominant class along side with thieves and engis. 

The fact that people want no counterplay towards a 1200+ range skillset is kinda kitten. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sorry its not a hate towards longbow its called learn to utilize your class to the fullest potential which includes weaving into melee weapons. I am pretty sure what you just stated is laughed off by SO many boonbeast which is currently a dominant class along side with thieves and engis. 

The fact that people want no counterplay towards a 1200+ range skillset is kinda kitten. 

 

What does boonbeast have to do with anything I said? I literally said you can bypass this entire topic by just playing shortbow, which last time I checked isn't a melee weapon.

 

In short, reflect / block / etc. specifically punishes longbow and melee is a bad answer for countering it when it can literally be countered at range...

[The Boz.2038]

6 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

What makes you think there's then any advantage to running melee if the attacks will then be blocked regardless?

You... clearly haven't read what I wrote, then. Are you aware that "block" and "block projectiles" (or destroy, whatever) are not the same thing? And that you can have one without the other?

Also, melee already deals substantially more sustained damage. There are, like, two or three professions that can match general melee burst with their ranged burst, should the stars align.

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

no counterplay

chalk another one up to the "didn't read lol" pile

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

chalk another one up to the "didn't read lol" pile

Sorry I don't read just yours but the overall 10 page thread. Please do not think that this thread is only your opinion and that is it. The whole point of the thread and I could care less is the title itself called "Removal of Reflect". Please refrain from being so emotional over nothing and get back on the topic.

 

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

There are, like, two or three professions that can match general melee burst with their ranged burst, should the stars align.

Again I said ranged is far less risky then melee so naturally ofc melee dmg should be higher then ranged, but in ranger's case its not the first time that they can literally 100 to 0 from people on mount. 

 

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

In short, reflect / block / etc. specifically punishes longbow and melee is a bad answer for countering it when it can literally be countered at range...

I honestly don't know how to comment on this when this in itself contradicts the whole purpose of the topic and just shows how lack of knowledge you are towards the game and are blindly wanting mechanics to be removed left and right to your own fancy because you simply don't know how to deal with them. 

I don't know where the "it can literally be countered at range" could possibly mean, what you actually want something that is beyond 2000+ range or perhaps even further?

[anduriell.6280]

9 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Reflects/deflects are an essential part of the game, because if they're removed, there would be no reason to play melee unless it dealt substantially more damage/ranged dealt substantially less.

This is a very good point, reflects and projectile hate are needed in the game. The ones which only affects one target are fine too. 

What brought this projectile hate creep is the AoE reflects like the buffs to aura sharing or the scrapper / Firebrand bubble. Now one single firebrand can shield a full squad. 

Also the nerf to unblockables made the situation worse, reflects are unlimited while you have a limited amount of unblockable hits. 

So projectile hate needs to be toned down or key professions need to be buffed accordingly. The current situation is absurd balance wise. 

 

 

14 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"I started with a ranger meme (oh wait, example in an off-hand remark), but if someone followed it with ranger memes, it's on them and *THEY* devolved it into the ranger memeland! !"

 

lmao, no. If you didn't want it to be a ranger memeland, then maybe you shouldn't direct it that way right from the opening post, while singling out ranger in a silly manner in the first place 🤔 

 

For somebody who admits not playing or liking the profession he/she/they are pretty active in the ranger sub forums anyway. 

 

15 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I honestly don't know how to comment on this when this in itself contradicts the whole purpose of the topic and just shows how lack of knowledge you are towards the game and are blindly wanting mechanics to be removed left and right to your own fancy because you simply don't know how to deal with them. 

I don't know where the "it can literally be countered at range" could possibly mean, what you actually want something that is beyond 2000+ range or perhaps even further?

You are missing the point for the ranger, ranger has only 2 weapons out of the 11 available which don't have any projectiles, Greatsword and Sword. Any argument here about "don't use projectiles lol" is totally dumb. 

 

 

[The Boz.2038]

The entire thread mentioned counterplay. You have posters here saying "failure of an attack is punishment enough" elsewhere, just... not being consistent and saying it here.

Having your attack that you thought would hit and do some damage get blocked? Okay. Better luck next time. Reposition, wait for a new opportunity, whatever. Having your attack kill you randomly, often without warning, because, as has been mentioned before, it is pretty impossible to tell if there is reflect present in anything larger than a 3v3 skirmish? Kinda makes you want to not risk it ever again. the result of it is that projectile weapons are very, very unpopular in the entire game format. Bonus points if you can get *an ally in front of you killed* by just clicking a skill and getting it reflected into their face. That dude had no idea what was about to happen.

Following so far?

Okay, good.

"Block" and "Block projectiles" are two separate things. And there is a whole lot more of one than the other. So much that it alone can make melee much more attractive than ranged. How does "block projectiles" not count as counterplay? I specifically pointed out in the OP that "block projectiles" is not an issue. 

Thief (with a spec entirely devoted to ranged combat), Engineer (with kits instead of weapon switch), Ranger suffer heavily from this. Their options to get unblockable ranged attacks are either lackluster (Thief, Engineer), or outright do not work with their weapon kit (Ranger). 

To close out, 2000+ range 100 to 0 is kitten. I think I've said as much here before, but just to make sure.

[The Boz.2038]

7 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

For somebody who admits not playing or liking the profession he/she/they are pretty active in the ranger sub forums anyway. 

...in WvW. You'll notice all my very few posts in the ranger sub are for PvE stuff and general design. The class is a part of the "not working, should be seriously looked at" trio. Hence why my ranger is currently planted on a rich quartz node, and gets a whole 20 seconds of login time per day, at most.

[anduriell.6280]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

...in WvW. You'll notice all my very few posts in the ranger sub are for PvE stuff and general design. The class is a part of the "not working, should be seriously looked at" trio. Hence why my ranger is currently planted on a rich quartz node, and gets a whole 20 seconds of login time per day, at most.

It's fine, i'm maybe oversensitive to this as i've seen some profiles running in the subforum hating on the profession at any given chance. 

 

I agree with you in that one and most of your comments thou. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

To be frank anything not engi, rev, or necro is in need of seriously looking at, and they can start that by undoing 75% of the Feb2020 patch.

[Lazze.9870]

Well, I'm gonna repeat myself again. Reflects aren't a problem, they become a problem only when you try to make an effective zerg build using a projectile based weapon where the reflects are everywhere. Less so when tempest has fallen out a bit and the magnetic aura spam is less frequent, but still.

 

In ranger's case it just needs an elite spec better suited for organized zerg content. Soulbeast and even druid are useable, but not optimal relatively to the alternatives. Any comments about LB struggling elsewhere because of reflects should be promptly ignored, because for roaming, smallscale and everything else, struggling with reflect is a player problem.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I honestly don't know how to comment on this when this in itself contradicts the whole purpose of the topic and just shows how lack of knowledge you are towards the game and are blindly wanting mechanics to be removed left and right to your own fancy because you simply don't know how to deal with them. 

I don't know where the "it can literally be countered at range" could possibly mean, what you actually want something that is beyond 2000+ range or perhaps even further?

 

You're reading a lot into it aren't you? For a person named 'salt mode' you seem to be getting angry at an opinion I never stated (removing the reflect mechanic).  

 

Anyway, have you ever played an immob shortbow build?  If not, let me clue you in--shortbow bleeds build up over time, so if the arrows are reflected it does very little damage to the user (and blocking does nothing since its spammable).  If you wanted to be truly careless, can just 'pew pew' through any reflect and block and cleanse yourself right after, you will have received a minor amount of damage and they waste their defense utility.

 

Thus, countering at range.  The point being reflect doesn't 'counter ranger', it specifically counters longbow because longbow has its predictable glass rapid fire burst.  

 

Again, my initial post wasn't agreeing that the mechanic should be removed; it was showing why it is especially problematic for a particular weapon (longbow) and why 'swap to melee' is the 'noob posting on a forum' suggestion when I'd just rather switch to an immob build and come back to read complaining about ancient seeds instead.  

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You're reading a lot into it aren't you? For a person named 'salt mode' you seem to be getting angry at an opinion I never stated (removing the reflect mechanic).  

 

Anyway, have you ever played an immob shortbow build?  If not, let me clue you in--shortbow bleeds build up over time, so if the arrows are reflected it does very little damage to the user (and blocking does nothing since its spammable).  If you wanted to be truly careless, can just 'pew pew' through any reflect and block and cleanse yourself right after, you will have received a minor amount of damage and they waste their defense utility.

 

Thus, countering at range.  The point being reflect doesn't 'counter ranger', it specifically counters longbow because longbow has its predictable glass rapid fire burst.  

 

Again, my initial post wasn't agreeing that the mechanic should be removed; it was showing why it is especially problematic for a particular weapon (longbow) and why 'swap to melee' is the 'noob posting on a forum' suggestion when I'd just rather switch to an immob build and come back to read complaining about ancient seeds instead.  

Then maybe you are in the wrong forum post because it sounds like you want shortbow to be buffed rather then coming here to discuss why reflect should be removed. 

Not every weapon set is viable for all classes and some even ignored this isn't due to bad mechanics in the game its due to poor balancing. 

Anyhow I don't know what my name has to do with being angry because clearly that isn't the case or maybe perhaps you need to read some more to understand not only other people's posts as well as re-read your posts to make sure you get to the point.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

20 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

To be frank anything not engi, rev, or necro is in need of seriously looking at, and they can start that by undoing 75% of the Feb2020 patch.

Even the things on that list need some work as well. On Engineer, Inventions has several dead or useless traits that need a complete overhaul (it has some really powerful traits as well, but this just makes the traitline "gimmicky" to use, and means it can't stand on its own for player sustain). Tools and Firearms also need some targeted changes to some of their traits to make these competetive with Explosives.

 

Rev needs some serious changes on Corruption. When ANet changed how resistance works, it really didn't occur to them to change the traitline built on giving yourself conditions and staying alive through resistance at all, and it really needs to be changed so the traitline either focuses on resolution (which might overlap too much with Retribution traits) or focus on dark aura. Salvation also needs some pretty big changes to the way healing orbs work, because these small things on the ground are practically impossible to use well in large-scale group content, and are hard to see anyway with visual noise.

[Lazze.9870]

2 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

On Engineer, Inventions has several dead or useless traits that need a complete overhaul (it has some really powerful traits as well, but this just makes the traitline "gimmicky" to use, and means it can't stand on its own for player sustain).

 

It's a traitline made for healing, and it is used for that exact reason. The question is why the medkit trait is in Alchemy and not in Inventions, so that support scrappers would actually have to make a choice instead of being given the perfect support build with barely no trade offs anywhere (the only one being do I want more heals or more cleanses from the Inventions GM).

Edited July 21, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[ThrakathNar.4537]

17 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

It's a traitline made for healing, and it is used for that exact reason. The question is why the medkit trait is in Alchemy and not in Inventions, so that support scrappers would actually have to make a choice instead of being given the perfect support build with barely no trade offs anywhere (the only one being do I want more heals or more cleanses from the Inventions GM).

It has potent traits - there are just several really bad ones. Almost no build ever will run Automated Medical Response, Autodefense Bomb Dispenser or Bunker Down, they're just not good. Experimental Turrets (along with Turrets generally as a skill type) and Soothing detonation could also both do with a rework, or at the very least ANet could change the name of Soothing Detonation since it doesn't have anything to do with blast finishers any more.

 

Moving the med-kit trait though wouldn't make a difference to anything though - if a build is using Inventions it's also using Alchemy, the former is just so reliant on the latter to become a strong traitline.

[Lazze.9870]

5 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Moving the med-kit trait though wouldn't make a difference to anything though - if a build is using Inventions it's also using Alchemy, the former is just so reliant on the latter to become a strong traitline.

 

Well, it could force a choice in inventions if placed correctly and put one competent trait into a traitline that you think have too many bad ones. A trait that arguably makes more sense to have in a traitline made for healing. Not that I'm a strong advocate for moving it or care that much about it. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

Turrets are bad, Autodefense bomb dispenser is just another passive trigger - aka either bad or not fun, and bunker down was used in pvp until it got nerfed. I will give you those.

 

Should engie even get more personal sustain from inventions? It gives you healing power, more and better protection, mecha legs, some cleansing, improves the shield. It's not like druid in its current from gives ranger much sustain either. Kiting and disengangement tools with staff and celestial shadow, plus a full cleanse from druidic clarity and the equivalent to mecha legs in natural stride (which already competes with celestial shadow), but there are very little in terms of personal sustain from the traits. You could make the same argument with rev's salvation - more about healing others than self-sustain.

 

In my opinion Inventions works perfectly fine, despite some bad traits that they obviously could take a look at. Being reliant on a different traitline to provide strong support is the same as with any other support build. The lack of such synergy is one of the reasons druid doesn't work as a support outside of pve where it got spirits. Nature Magic doesn't provide any meaningful support outside of more regen and better spirits.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[ThrakathNar.4537]

7 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Well, it could force a choice in inventions if placed correctly and put one competent trait into a traitline that you think have too many bad ones. A trait that arguably makes more sense to have in a traitline made for healing. Not that I'm a strong advocate for moving it or care that much about it. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

Turrets are bad, Autodefense bomb dispenser is just another passive trigger - aka either bad or not fun, and bunker down was used in pvp until it got nerfed. I will give you those.

 

Should engie even get more personal sustain from inventions? It gives you healing power, more and better protection, mecha legs, some cleansing, improves the shield. It's not like druid in its current from gives ranger much sustain either. Kiting and disengangement tools with staff and celestial shadow, plus a full cleanse from druidic clarity and the equivalent to mecha legs in natural stride (which already competes with celestial shadow), but there are very little in terms of personal sustain from the traits. You could make the same argument with rev's salvation - more about healing others than self-sustain.

 

In my opinion Inventions works perfectly fine, despite some bad traits. Being reliant on a different traitline to provide strong support is the same as with any other support build.

The goal with reworking and replacing the traits I mentioned earlier is not to make the traitline as a whole stronger, but instead to give you more options. The reason why you think Inventions works fine is because of Over Shield + ACP, which are the reason for the "prot" in prot holo. The thing is though that those traits being strong doesn't give build diversity, because any engi build that takes Inventions will be running both of these traits (unless it's a full support in PvE, in which case it will run MDF instead of ACP because the cleansing isn't necessary). Even on builds that don't use a shield, there is still no reason to drop Over Shield as a trait, just because the other ones in the column are so bad.

 

Fixing the bad traits in any traitline won't make strong builds more overpowered, because you can only pick one trait in each column. All it does is gives people more options. A traitline might work, it might even be meta, but that doesn't mean that it's a good traitline overall if there's only one way to use it.

[Abyssisis.3971]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:32 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

True ... how about we suggest Anet remove reflects ... and nerf all ranged weapon damage at range 600 or less?

Only if we also remove every gap closer/teleport in the game.

[Lazze.9870]

18 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

The reason why you think Inventions works fine is because of Over Shield + ACP, which are the reason for the "prot" in prot holo.

 

That's one of the reasons it works. The other is for support scrapper in wvw, where they in theory have two options in both the adept and gm tier, but the meta shifted them towards more condi cleanse over additional healing. That's not a result of bad traits, it's a result of what works best for the meta composition. The only way support scrappers would pick anything else is by shifting the meta or creating something overpowered that is too good to give up over the additional cleanses for.

 

It also works perfectly fine as a healer in pve as well, it's just not meta for optimized endgame content. That could change with any espec, inventions is a solid base line for a support and you got medkit. Any new weapon can be a complete dud, as far as support go you're settled with the medkit.

 

18 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

A traitline might work, it might even be meta, but that doesn't mean that it's a good traitline overall if there's only one way to use it.

 

I'm obviously biased, but if Anet is gonna look at one of the "healer traitlines" anytime soon, it ought to be druid. Because what you said there is literally the reason why Anet is fine with druid. It got the might generation and something that provides healing - the rest are core ranger buffs that make it pve meta and irrelevant elsewhere. There is zero effort to make druid even remotely viable compared to its support competition in pvp and wvw. Inventions has options, it just so happens that prot holo and cleanse farm scrapper both use the same traits. Again, the latter because of a meta shift where more cleanses are preferable, not because the other option is bad.

 

I also disagree that it should provide engie with more sustain, as you eluded to earlier. It's more about sustaining others, some of that will spill onto the engie itself (then there is better prot from over shield because reasons..). There are ways to make bunker down and autodefense bomb dispenser work better as mitigation traits, but that's hard to do without providing annoying passives that act as a wheelchair for the player. The turret trait is what it is, turrets are (mostly) bad.

 

I think engie is generally plauged with a bit too many passive (or semi-passive) traits, and invention is no exception. That's something Anet generally could look at which probably would make the bad traits in inventions more enticing.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[ThrakathNar.4537]

2 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

That's one of the reasons it works. The other is for support scrapper in wvw, where they in theory have two options in both the adept and gm tier, but the meta shifted them towards more condi cleanse over additional healing. That's not a result of bad traits, it's a result of what works best for the meta composition.

I'm probably not making myself clear enough, but if any traitline on any class does not have 9 traits that are good in some situation, then those traits need reworking. Currently Inventions is 5/9 for good traits, which, while it's not the worst traitline in the game, is still in need of changes.

 

2 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

I also disagree that it should provide engie with more sustain, as you eluded to earlier. It's more about sustaining others, some of that will spill onto the engie itself (then there is better prot from over shield because reasons..). There are ways to make bunker down and autodefense bomb dispenser work better as mitigation traits, but that's hard to do without providing annoying passives that act as a wheelchair for the player. The turret trait is what it is, turrets are (mostly) bad.

Good traitlines (here meaning ones where all the traits are useful) are rarely about only one thing. Taking Explosives as an example, you can pick traits that give you power damage, condi damage, or self sustain. It's not limited to one narrow thing. Inventions doesn't necessarily have to become more sustain-y, but what ANet could do with the traits is try to separate the effects into three separate rows of self-sustain, group healing/boons, and some other assorted utility (increased movement speeds, better turret traits, etc). The obvious first step with this is to separate the 5 target protection and the reduced shield recharge into two separate things, making you need to choose between them.

 

Even though Inventions does need some improvements, that doesn't mean that it's top of the pile for reworks, of course not. I fully support (ha ha) changes and buffs to druid. You're almost certainly more knowledgeable on the exact changes needed though, so I won't attempt to list them here. However, just because Druid's in a worse state doesn't mean that Inventions is some gold standard of what traitlines should be, it does need fundamental changes to several of its traits. But it's not like ANet are ever going to rework either of them though.

 

This is sort of a side-note to this conversation (which in turn is sort of a side note to the actual topic being discussed here lol), but the thing that has annoyed me the most about most balancing descisions that ANet made over the last year is that they only ever seem to touch what's meta. the 6th of April patch (the one where they removed Mender's amulet) is probably the biggest example of this. With this patch, they decided to buff the healing power scaling on some classes as compensation for the lost stats. Those classes? Warrior, Guard, and Tempest. The three classes that were already meta supports at the time. No buffs to heal chrono, druid, rev, or engi, just compensating the stuff that is already used more, making those supports even stronger than the others. Maybe they'll find some time to work on some of the underperforming stuff after EoD comes out. Maybe.