Whats the best roaming-camp flipping-duelist? Soulbeast? Deadeye? Scrapper? Holo? Daredevil? something else?

[Ronin.4501]

I play a base mesmer (used to be mirage before the dodge nerf) running a condi/trailblazer build.  I have no problem soloing camps (T3 or otherwise) and towers, and win probably 75% of my 1v1s (and to the above commenters about beating up on zerglings...if someone decides to solo roam on their zergling build, I shouldn't be blamed for their stupidity).  I should add that I rarely win any fights in under 30s.  NPCs never change their tactics, so once you've figured them out you're good to go.  And most players these days look for the easy, one-two punch builds...so if you can withstand their initial onslaught they don't really know what to do after that.

 

I'm sure there are other builds that are just as effective in doing both.  It's more about spending time getting to know your class and your build.

[bigo.9037]

18 hours ago, Sviel.7493 said:

When defending a camp, the scariest thing for me to see is a necro.

I'll kill them, sure, but I can't hold the ring so I'm going to lose the camp anyway.

Lol, what class are you playing? As long as scourge doesn’t have their elite really can’t do much if you run a bit of condi cleanse in your build + cleansing sigil. Core necro is better for defending while calling for help in mapchat, and reaper gets screwed as soon as he runs out of stab.. so

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Best option is to kite npcs to a choke and Bomb them with multi target dmg. 

 

I'd say trapper DH, Axe 5 Warr, axe 5 ranger, Staff mesmers, condi revs, burn guards are the way to go. 

[MrForz.1953]

1 hour ago, bigo.9037 said:

Lol, what class are you playing? As long as scourge doesn’t have their elite really can’t do much if you run a bit of condi cleanse in your build + cleansing sigil. Core necro is better for defending while calling for help in mapchat, and reaper gets screwed as soon as he runs out of stab.. so

 

That's exactly what he meant. Probably core Necromancer, definitely killable, but may have just enough resources to drive you off the camp and capture it.

Edited July 28, 2021 by MrForz.1953

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/27/2021 at 10:25 AM, Shroud.2307 said:

I think opinions on this will be pretty divided depending on what people perceive to be the hardest thing to kill or the thing they hate fighting most.

My list would be like this,

1. Ranger
2. Thief
3. Revenant
4. Engineer
5. Mesmer

First I want to establish the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling.
A skill floor is the minimum requirement to be effective with a given class or build, and a skill ceiling is the maximum you can achieve when you've "mastered" it.

Ranger has the most versatility and the most low skill floor builds, with most of them being effective enough to compete with builds that are more demanding. "Boonbeast" for example is a low skill floor build with high potential when played well. 
Although the class as a whole has a relatively high skill ceiling, most of the builds that are more difficult to play are significantly less rewarding.

Thief could arguably be placed in position 1, but I put it in position 2 for a few reasons;
It is extremely dependent on having field control and mobility to win, it becomes dramatically weaker the larger the scale of the fight, and most of the low skill floor builds are terrible, meaning the barrier to entry is pretty high. 
Although I personally feel that Thief is one of, if not the only classes with a nearly infinite skill ceiling, meaning you can always get better with it - realistically only a very small fraction of players will ever get that good. The vast majority will struggle against even the lowest skill floor builds if they can't abuse LOS or mobility - and smart players will use that to their advantage. 
To put it simply, an exceptionally good Thief should be able to beat anything, but realistically there are too many things that neuter their potential unless the person playing it is one of that tiny percentage.

Revenant is another similar to Thief in that it has an extremely high skill ceiling, but also has more than a few effective low skill floor builds. For example, Shortbow Rene doesn't have a lot of losing match ups and is strong enough to deal with builds that are more demanding assuming it's played well.
Revenant also has the virtue of scaling well with groups in that it provides a lot of defensive and offensive support, and the weakness of poor sustain that many of its builds have becomes less significant with allies to fall back on.

Engineer is in a similar position to Ranger. It has a lot of low skill floor builds, but unlike Ranger fewer of them are competitively effective. Most of the more difficult builds are the ones that have higher versatility, but with the current state of Engineer's balance, the lowest skill floor builds are the better ones just because they're so significantly more forgiving. 
Eg. A Grenade Kit Scrapper is extremely low skill floor, but it also gets countered very hard. Where as a core build might be able to handle a wider range of builds, the reward potential just isn't there for the effort needed. 

And for Mesmer, I don't play the class, period. I cannot give experienced thoughts from the perspective of a Mesmer player, but I can say that I know it has a high skill ceiling, is versatile and provides utility in small - medium scale fights (and is great for commanding if you go full support), but is food for most Thief builds even if played well.

 

Just an FYI - easier and more effective builds have a high skill floor, not a low skill floor.  The "floor" is referring to its baseline effectiveness when played at its worst, so ranger has a higher skill floor because it can be more effective at lower levels of play.  You otherwise have things right though.

 

I agree with this list but I'd still probably put Engi over Rev.  Generally speaking, camp flipping is a solo activity, and I think Engi has a better 1v1 capacity than Rev for the reasons you outlined - Rev scales better into small group play, but I think is easier to punish solo, and I think with the un-nerfed nades setup, clear time on camps is faster for engineer a well.

 

Thief is a really weird case because it kind of fits anywhere dependent on the skill and build choice of the player and its opponent.  An unpracticed thief/opponent with an off-meta build is probably dead last on the list, well below necro.  A moderately-practiced thief/opponent on an off-meta build is middling.  A well-practiced player with a dominant build is pushing for #1/#2.  And like you said, a top-tier thief on an optimal build will pretty handily take #1.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by DeceiverX.8361

[Sviel.7493]

16 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Lol, what class are you playing? As long as scourge doesn’t have their elite really can’t do much if you run a bit of condi cleanse in your build + cleansing sigil. Core necro is better for defending while calling for help in mapchat, and reaper gets screwed as soon as he runs out of stab.. so

The problem isn't beating them, it's that I need to keep my distance at times to do so.  I can't really bring them down before the ring flips so I try to focus on intercepting them before they reach the camp.

Nowadays, with Warclaw, even Necros have map mobility so the downside of being slow+predictable no longer exists.  Once they get into the camp with NPCs to leech off of, I just have to give them some space.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Sviel.7493

[bigo.9037]

1 hour ago, Sviel.7493 said:

The problem isn't beating them, it's that I need to keep my distance at times to do so.  I can't really bring them down before the ring flips so I try to focus on intercepting them before they reach the camp.

Nowadays, with Warclaw, even Necros have map mobility so the downside of being slow+predictable no longer exists.  Once they get into the cap with NPCs to leech off of, I just have to give them some space.

Ik there are decent necros who are able to stay alive for quite a while on tb stats , but the vast majority die rather quickly. Again, what spec are you on? With a good amount of cleanse from traits and utilities + sigils coupled with cc and you should be able to melee a scourge np when their elite is gone. 
 

if you’re talking about core nec, well you’re supposed to stick to them as much as you can so.. trying to kite them is a bad idea. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by bigo.9037

[Magnuzone.8395]

On 7/27/2021 at 1:54 AM, Fiddler.5174 said:

Whats the best roaming-camp flipping-duelist? Soulbeast? Deadeye? Scrapper? Holo? Daredevil? something else?

 

Camp flipping and dueling/roaming is 2 different things.

 

For camp flipping: Go any class you want, reach the camp pref unseen. Gather all npc's in a corner and hope that you kill them before being spotted. If spotted, port. If you cant port, die horribly and rerun. Repeat infinite number for times.

 

This also works for mindlessly attacking tower npc's: Attack npc, dont keep track of your surroundings, get killed by unknown player. Repeat infinite number for times.

[LSD.4673]

It's not just profession, but weapon. My Daredevil with staff could clear camps quickly and easily, but i couldn't effectively win fights with him.

My rifle Deadeye takes all day to clear a camp, but wins duels like a mother fluffer.

 

I'd imagine bow Deadeye could deal with camps better, just like i'm sure non-staff DD could do a better job in duels (the clue should have been the handful of people raising eyebrows at me using staff...).

[Xion.5694]

Basic staff /dagger+wh signet necro is all you need - decent damage, perfect condy cleanse, big damage skills like lich form to quickly clear the camp (stack mobs for the PvE). The only down side is that the 1v1 and 3v1 wins come with patience, its not 2hit dh/rev.

[PeerlessArch.6547]

On 7/27/2021 at 3:36 AM, Gorem.8104 said:

Good dueling SB will always win with a boonbeast build, but for camp flipping any strong class does it well. 

Playing a thief means you love running away and not killing any actual good player. 

Please...#1 class that runs away after getting to half health = warrior. #2 Ranger.  The moment my theif gets a warrior to half health, they about-face and start spamming all their mobility skills. It's funny actually. And I don't play a cheap perma-stealth build either.

[alcopaul.2156]

5 hours ago, PeerlessArch.6547 said:

Please...#1 class that runs away after getting to half health = warrior. #2 Ranger.  The moment my theif gets a warrior to half health, they about-face and start spamming all their mobility skills. It's funny actually. And I don't play a cheap perma-stealth build either.

sorry but i laughed real hard on this..

[Spartacus.3192]

On 8/5/2021 at 3:56 PM, PeerlessArch.6547 said:

Please...#1 class that runs away after getting to half health = warrior. #2 Ranger.  The moment my theif gets a warrior to half health, they about-face and start spamming all their mobility skills. It's funny actually. And I don't play a cheap perma-stealth build either.

somehow i doubt this, only because i believe there are barely any warrior roamers left. I can count them on one hand. And those warriors are actually good and don't run. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 8/5/2021 at 3:56 PM, PeerlessArch.6547 said:

Please...#1 class that runs away after getting to half health = warrior. #2 Ranger.  The moment my theif gets a warrior to half health, they about-face and start spamming all their mobility skills. It's funny actually. And I don't play a cheap perma-stealth build either.

 

This is categorically true.  I've yet to encounter a spellbreaker that doesn't put on nikes the moment they start to fall below half HP.  I also have long agreed with the notion that most SBs are terrible and only carried by bird swoop, GS block, stone signet, etc.  Boonbeast is only powerful because boons are, not because soulbeast is in a great place.

 

My opinion here though is druid.  No one plays it because very few care to learn how to move past longbow and play it, but I can't find a spec that can kill me 1v1--though a few builds can stalemate until we're both bored.  By that I mean specs with a lot of barrier in particular just take too long to care about, so I usually just ignore them and move on; everything else either gets nuked immediately or runs away in which case I still call that a win.  

[DaVid Darksoul.4985]

Core necro most versatile, especially with new armory

[Famine.7915]

You will always be better off playing what you like and learning to play it well.

[oscuro.9720]

Any class on almost any build can solo camps provided you have bare minimum exotics/full equipment, don’t fight an ri lord, and know how to play the class. Focus on builds that are effective vs real players and that you find enjoyable. 

[Simonoly.4352]

Staff Daredevil. Stack the guards and bounce on them until they melt. It's very quick indeed.

Probably swap out staff once the guards are dead though.