Should Mirage have its own unique shatters?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

AS a noob mesmer, an issue I have with playing Mirage is how it doesn't feel very unique in my skill bar compared to Core Mesmer and how Core Mesmer kinda fallsa back to it's roles due to the espec being generally a better option (outside the 1 dodge mechanic in competetive). So my question is, did Mirage ever have unique shatters? If not, why? Why not diffrentiate it from core a bit and create an actual tradeoff to picking the spec outside some weird dodge mechanic? Chrono emphasizes well on that with different shatters and an unique shatter.

 

I know, kinda of a stupid thing to consider when stuff like a single F5 ability scrapper exists but I rly want to see an alteration to my skillbar signifying the change in gameplay (isn't this the purpose of the elite specs anyway?).

 

What are your thoughts? Should core be more unique with it's own shatters and Mirage get it's own?

Edited July 27, 2021 by Grand Marshal.4098
Title change to clarify post

[Puck.3697]

Mirage changed the way you deal with shatters, but didn't change shatters, mirages wanted 3x illusions up at all times, while core is about bursting. 

 

The dodge mechanic is effectively mirages unique ability, 

 

On if it should be changed. I don't rly mind. I've always found both core and mirage fun tbh. 

[Genesis.5169]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

AS a noob mesmer, an issue I have with playing Mirage is how it doesn't feel very unique in my skill bar compared to Core Mesmer and how Core Mesmer kinda fallsa back to it's roles due to the espec being generally a better option (outside the 1 dodge mechanic in competetive). So my question is, did Mirage ever have unique shatters? If not, why? Why not diffrentiate it from core a bit and create an actual tradeoff to picking the spec outside some weird dodge mechanic? Chrono emphasizes well on that with different shatters and an unique shatter.

 

I know, kinda of a stupid thing to consider when stuff like a single F5 ability scrapper exists but I rly want to see an alteration to my skillbar signifying the change in gameplay (isn't this the purpose of the elite specs anyway?).

 

What are your thoughts? Should core be more unique with it's own shatters and Mirage get it's own?

 

Core should be absolute trash compared to e-specs.

Everyone complaining about core specs not being as good as elite specs need to look up the meaning of elite, (any dictionary your choice) buy the expansion and quit crying.

 

All mirage needs is to go back to Mid way PoF mirage with the condition changes and it would be great.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Salt Mode.3780]

11 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

 

Core should be absolute trash compared to e-specs.

Everyone complaining about core specs not being as good as elite specs need to look up the meaning of elite, (any dictionary your choice) buy the expansion and quit crying.

 

All mirage needs is to go back to Mid way PoF mirage with the condition changes and it would be great.

Actually in terms of raw dmg in shatter core surpasses both e-specs.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

19 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

 

Core should be absolute trash compared to e-specs.

Everyone complaining about core specs not being as good as elite specs need to look up the meaning of elite, (any dictionary your choice) buy the expansion and quit crying.

 

All mirage needs is to go back to Mid way PoF mirage with the condition changes and it would be great.

Huh, lmao ok

 

Was just talking about some key features being different. Did I say for core mes to be the strongest or something lol. 

 

Who's crying? 

[Genesis.5169]

10 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Actually in terms of raw dmg in shatter core surpasses both e-specs.

It doesn't if you have blind on shatter 2 in mirage and torment on shatters,

Shatter 2 if they spam under confusion they will die but they have to spam and be dumb and not condi cleanse, power is just much easier to apply the damage because its instant and all you need is a second while they have no stam or aegis.

 

Chrono has the ability to mind wrack 3 times with 2x gravity well underneath with max clones which is alot of damage in theory but again it requires every cd you proper CS timing and your OPP being absolutely moronic. Now ironically after explaining this all 3 mesmer specs do no more damage then a warrior in full tank gear.

 

What your feeling isn't better is just ease of use because the e-specs are gutted long ago.

Need to need trait better if you believe this for real.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Alpha.1308]

6 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Core should be absolute trash compared to e-specs.

Everyone complaining about core specs not being as good as elite specs need to look up the meaning of elite, (any dictionary your choice) buy the expansion and quit crying.

that's not what any of this means

 

for one thing, e-specs were supposed to change how it was played, so core could still be utilized for separate mechanics

 

for another thing, what if people dislike this, and still have the expansion?

 

it would make more sense to have core classes be the ones with better diversity because they get 3 trait lines to work with, rather than 2 

 

but that's not how the game works right now, especially mesmer due to their absolutely garbage trait lines 

 

from the wiki: 

      "In contrast to core specializations, which merely modify how certain skills and effects work, choosing an elite specialization fundamentally changes the way a given profession plays by altering or expanding on the base profession mechanic and providing access to a new weapon, healing skill, elite skill and a set of utility skills of the same skill type.^[2] All core profession skills, weapons and specializations will still be available while an elite specialization is equipped."

 

from the post on e-specs for HoT launch:

 

Elite Specializations

         "Finally, we’re here. When we talked about rangers becoming druids and necromancers with greatswords, those were examples of what we call elite specializations. These are the brand-new level-80 specializations that will begin to introduce new weapons, mechanics, skills, and traits to existing professions in Heart of Thorns."

 

absolutely nothing here says "elite" specializations should specifically be "better" 

they're supposed to "change" how they're played, and "introduce" new things 

they were specifically supposed to "specialize more" into one thing, yes, making the one thing stronger, such as "expanding" as they say on a mechanic, but they should never have flat out "replaced" core builds, only replaced where they were supposed to be stronger, not stronger than the base class overall 

 

core should still be the flexible option, giving access to more traitlines at a time, along with having its own mechanics stronger than e-specs

 

which, that still is the case to a degree, as someone else mentioned core shatters are still the strongest shatters

the only problem is the power creep shoving out a lot of options viability in the long run, and not just "but this one thing is stronger"

and this goes for all classes, too, even core guardian is still functionally very strong, along with ele and necro, then thief to a minor degree 

 

but looking at traitline synergies between guardian/necro/ele.... then looking at mesmer traitlines.... 

 

that's where one of the biggest issues of this comes from, because a lot of the times, the classes that don't have viable core builds, are the ones with very poorly designed traitlines, basically forcing you to pick an e-spec, because they're just plain better than existing ones, and don't add enough to the base class to even consider taking over an e-spec, which should absolutely not be the case

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Curunen.8729]

Short answer - yes (this has been discussed to death).

 

I reckon one day Anet may finally make that kind of change just like they did with chrono - but not expecting anything completely different.

[Stavros.8249]

It would be positive. I play my power chrono more cause I like the shatters. Not just dmg but the animation with the clocks. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

13 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Short answer - yes (this has been discussed to death).

 

I reckon one day Anet may finally make that kind of change just like they did with chrono - but not expecting anything completely different.

Ooh sorry I wasn't aware that the talk has occurred already, it does seem understandable though. If me, a non-mesmer would like to see unique shatters from a Mirage, then ig Mesmer mains want that 10 times more. 

 

As for your ideas, do you know of any thread, got any examples, of how the shatters on Mirage could be different? Would love to read some thread on that with ideas. 

[Curunen.8729]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Ooh sorry I wasn't aware that the talk has occurred already, it does seem understandable though. If me, a non-mesmer would like to see unique shatters from a Mirage, then ig Mesmer mains want that 10 times more. 

 

As for your ideas, do you know of any thread, got any examples, of how the shatters on Mirage could be different? Would love to read some thread on that with ideas. 

No worries am busy today but can link some threads tomorrow. 🙂

[AXLIB.8425]

Judging from the chrono shatter and the new elite shatter, even if mirage get new shatter it still just be the reskin of old shatter and maybe if we're lucky F4 will be different. So it will just be a waste of time that they can be spend on making guardian necro ranger and rev good.

[Tseison.4659]

I do think all shatters in the previous elite specs should be different, in the sense that not just being reskinned, but also doing something additional and/or unique. 

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

On 7/27/2021 at 3:02 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

What are your thoughts? Should core be more unique with it's own shatters and Mirage get it's own?

 

In my opinion yes, absolutely. Uniqueness is almost always welcome.

 

Were it up to me, Mirage "shatters" wouldn't be shatters, but instead commands to the illusions that doesn't kill them, to keep more in line with the espec thematic of Mirage wanting illusions active instead of consuming them for burst.

[Curunen.8729]

On 7/27/2021 at 5:10 PM, Curunen.8729 said:

No worries am busy today but can link some threads tomorrow. 🙂

Ok it's a lot to trawl back through nearly 4 years of threads.

 

Will start off by saying when mirage was announced there was a fair amount of discussion/hope for new shatters - one of the more prominent examples being clone ambush commands (instead of tied to dodge+IH as we currently have), as Hirosama has mentioned above, the idea being similar to how this new Virtuoso is handling F1, F2 etc just with clones shooting out either direct damage, condi damage or cc ambush on command instead of self destructing.

 

I think more recently Jazz's thread here has some examples from various people: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/77694-doc-mesmer-changes-suggestions-for-cmc/

 

I'm trying to find a decent example from my own post history: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/62793-lets-talk-about-pvp-balance/?do=findComment&comment=1006745 https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/58621-trade-offs-for-mirage-what-will-it-be-what-would-you-like-it-to-be/?do=findComment&comment=936262 apologies these are pretty vague/bad examples but I can't spend hours going through old posts, as the search function on this forum is not great and neither is google site search - suffice to say many ideas have been put forward by different people over the last 4 years.

 

My current thought for the sake of simplicity (because it is unlikely dodge will ever be decoupled from ambush activation) is following how Riddle of Sand works - and in turn reducing the direct damage/condi/cc of shatters but buffing subsequent ambush attacks. Encourages ambushing more, reduces mirage's instant burst compared with core (as for design I believe mirage should be about less burst more gradual damage build up whether power or condi, and in turn greater survivability).

Eg F1 reduced by x%, but gain an effect boosting direct damage of next ambush by y%.

 

And I firmly believe F4 should just be Desert Distortion only - 1s distortion and all clones become mirrors. This may provide the foundation to return mirage's second dodge, if they dodn't have access to the current insane amount of invuln/mirrors that both normal F4 distortion and desert distortion provide.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Curunen.8729

[Grand Marshal.4098]

50 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Ok it's a lot to trawl back through nearly 4 years of threads.

 

Will start off by saying when mirage was announced there was a fair amount of discussion/hope for new shatters - one of the more prominent examples being clone ambush commands (instead of tied to dodge+IH as we currently have), as Hirosama has mentioned above, the idea being similar to how this new Virtuoso is handling F1, F2 etc just with clones shooting out either direct damage, condi damage or cc ambush on command instead of self destructing.

 

I think more recently Jazz's thread here has some examples from various people: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/77694-doc-mesmer-changes-suggestions-for-cmc/

 

I'm trying to find a decent example from my own post history: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/62793-lets-talk-about-pvp-balance/?do=findComment&comment=1006745 https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/58621-trade-offs-for-mirage-what-will-it-be-what-would-you-like-it-to-be/?do=findComment&comment=936262 apologies these are pretty vague/bad examples but I can't spend hours going through old posts, as the search function on this forum is not great and neither is google site search - suffice to say many ideas have been put forward by different people over the last 4 years.

 

My current thought for the sake of simplicity (because it is unlikely dodge will ever be decoupled from ambush activation) is following how Riddle of Sand works - and in turn reducing the direct damage/condi/cc of shatters but buffing subsequent ambush attacks. Encourages ambushing more, reduces mirage's instant burst compared with core (as for design I believe mirage should be about less burst more gradual damage build up whether power or condi, and in turn greater survivability).

Eg F1 reduced by x%, but gain an effect boosting direct damage of next ambush by y%.

 

And I firmly believe F4 should just be Desert Distortion only - 1s distortion and all clones become mirrors. This may provide the foundation to return mirage's second dodge, if they dodn't have access to the current insane amount of invuln/mirrors that both normal F4 distortion and desert distortion provide.

 

Highly informative and fun stuff to read! Thank you for sharing your time with me! 

[Xaylin.1860]

I still like my idea from ages ago, although it does require more changes to Mirage rather than just altering Shatters. It is in line with some of the things Cururen mentioned. The post is 2 years old, so keep that in mind (and formats are busted due to forum relaunch). It also deals with the whole class, not only Mirage.

 

Enchantments

Enchantments replace baseline Shatters. When activated, Clones perform an attack at your current target (s. Ambushes and Infinite Horizon) and then dissipate. Their damaging component is reduced and the debilitating effects increased. The Mesmer gains an 1s window per shattered Illusion for his Ambush-attack. His attack is enchanted with additional effects based on which Shatter is used (e.g. F1 = area damage around your target etc.). F4 grants 1s of Distortion and turns your Illusions into Mirage Mirrors.

 

Note: Related changes were removing many sources of Mirage Mirrors (Utilities) and replacing Mirage Cloak with Distortion to streamline the spec and create more synergies with baseline traits.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Xaylin.1860

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

At this point why not.

Here some ideas, Anet style:
F1 - Damage
F2 - Confusion.
F3 - Daze
F4 - Evade
 

[Zoser.7245]

42 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

At this point why not.

Here some ideas, Anet style:
F1 - Damage
F2 - Confusion.
F3 - Daze
F4 - Evade
 

Hopefully they still have the time to add emotes to those F skills when pressed/used:

F1 - /threaten       🤬🖕

F2 - /shrug           🙄😵

F3 .- /shiverplus   🥶⚠️

F4 - /no                😁⛔

 

Distortion utility -> 💩😤

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[Alpha.1308]

On 7/27/2021 at 2:02 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

What are your thoughts? Should core be more unique with it's own shatters and Mirage get it's own?

absolutely 100%

a mirage shouldn't shatter to begin with 

it should be a slow burn and dissipate

where as shatters are more spike-focused 

 

this would not be my first suggestion, as i think a mirage "shattering" would have been fine as a concept to begin with 

but for diversities sake, in this game, right now, no 

unless they changed core mechanic, then gave mirage the shatters, instead 

 

either way, they should be different, which is what e-specs were supposed to do

mirage is more or less the same exact thing, with a different "1" ability every so often, which is already what the mesmer and clones were doing, before 

[Jokubas.4265]

I'm absolutely crossing my fingers that Virtuoso getting F skills that blatantly match the Shatter skills is a sign that Virtuoso will be the "collect balloons to pop them" spec and free the rest of Mesmer to finally do something else with theirs. I'd like to assume it's outright a hint that the other specs are getting a change. I can't assume that, but I think Virtuoso puts us in a better position for us to ask for this from.

 

Let Virtuoso "Shatter", let Mirage and the rest do something else.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Jokubas.4265

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

On 7/27/2021 at 10:13 AM, Genesis.5169 said:

 

Core should be absolute trash compared to e-specs.

Everyone complaining about core specs not being as good as elite specs need to look up the meaning of elite, (any dictionary your choice) buy the expansion and quit crying.

 

All mirage needs is to go back to Mid way PoF mirage with the condition changes and it would be great.

No, core should be on the same level as elite specializations, that was A-net intention since the announcement of HoT and e-speces.
Currently most e-speces are core+ or core2.0 and looking at EoD Virtuoso, it'll become core3.0.
Yes, Mirage should have it's own unique shatter skills, since all e-speces should C H A N G E your gameplay, not just add more broken to your kit, because it'll throw your core into garbage can.