Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons Discussion Thread: Gameplay and Elite Specializations [MERGED]

[Dantert.1803]

Mechanist is cool but I wish Anet went full out on the customization of the mech. Like why only the first trait changes the arms?
The torso/head and maybe back should change too with the other 2 trait columns.
Specter feels fun but I can't see it used much in pve. One target heals are not good for raids and fractals.
The Untamed is a nice concept but feels skin deep. The visuals are unrefuned and terrible to look at, it really looks bad and also the veiny look doesn't show up on the pet most of the time...So what is the point?

I hope they change the look of it, make it like bark skin or something cool I'm sure they can come up with something better.

 

[Falconwing.8105]

6 hours ago, dougalkeane.4601 said:

 I even switched almost all of the gear to Assassin (except for the backpack, I dont know why yall give us every armor piece, trinket, and weapon except backpack)  so with Fury I was doing CRIT 80% but even with that my damage was crap. I was also attacking so slowly that the healing was basically useless.

Hmmm, you should probably have run Skirmishing then because that's a lot of crit damage you're losing out on, which is a lot of healing you lose. At least in situations where you want to guarantee 100% crit chance. 

 

I agree with all of your points overall, but you definitely weren't getting the optimal experience. 

[Kecal.3964]

So I have 1 comment for Mechanist, could the summon golem be moved to F5?

 

So far all big things for engineer (Gyro, Photon Forge, Elite Toolbelt skill) have come on F5 and it would be pain to have to change keybinds whenever changing to/out of Mechanist.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

On 10/28/2021 at 2:13 AM, Flapjackson.1596 said:

Specter:

This spec is fun and different from old thief. Since you are introducing ally-targeted skills with this spec, it could use better UI and keybind options to improve the gameplay. I know other MMOs let you manipulate party healthbars and selection to make the process of monitoring and selecting the proper ally less painful.

Untamed:
This spec is pretty sad. Being stuck to hammer is not very fun. The pet is very passive now as it needs to be micromanaged to do anything impactful. The damage isn't very impressive and it's role in WvW will be better accomplished by other specs. Unleashed skills should be available on other weapons to make the mechanic more useful. Integrate the pet more into the traits. I noticed a lack of a stun break as well. Also change the name! Awful name. Even the devs on the live stream were avoiding using it.

Mechanist:

This spec is far too reliant on the mech. There should be more interplay between having the mech active and not. The mech seems fairly weak yet when it is gone you are even worse off. The mace should be improved without the mech and the mech should be beefier and stronger when it is present. 

Bladesworn:

This spec feels very static and boring to play once you get past the big damage. Since you'll adjust the numbers anyway, what does it really offer? It's terrible in competitive modes and warrior REALLY didn't need a new power dps in PvE. Losing a weapon set wasn't worth this. We also lose an entire weapon set worth of cosmetics, severely limiting our options for designing a look.

Catalyst:

This class is equally as sad as Untamed. What is this class supposed to be? Is it supposed to be a fast swapping bruiser that builds up auras? Is it supposed to lay down totems and provide boons? These ideas clash, they do not work together. You can apply quickness on air but as soon as you swap your quickness application is gone. Weaver already does fast swapping dueling quite well. Tempest provides lots of auras. This class is also yet again tied too much to hammer. The hammer 3 is cool but the hitbox is janky and it is super reliant on this skill to do any damage.

Vindicator:

My contender for worst elite spec this expansion. Just rebuild it from the ground up please. Greatsword is okay but not particularly interesting. Everything else is bad. The damage is bad. The F2 is expensive and boring on any other legend. The utilities are awkward to use how you want because the F2 binding them is so expensive. The traitlines are too focused on the dodges and are uninspired divisions of damage/boons/healing. The dodges are super committal and not worth the cost. Did rev REALLY need another support option? No! What it needs is a power dps. Just make this spec a power dps. Give it a single line of defensive and offensive skills based on the legends. Make the dodges operate more like daredevil so you're not sacrificing your best defensive option for a lackluster attack. Please overhaul this spec. Extreme spec makeover: Rev edition.

Virtuoso:

This class feels so close yet so far to being good. I understand what it's supposed to be. A duelist and strong offensive presence. The issues are that it has a useless condi line and a full projectile kit. Toss the condi line and add a line focused on WvW gameplay. Let it be a mobile artillery cannon in PvE and WvW, a true offensive threat. Give it access to some unblockable bladesongs so that you can punch through people. 

Harbinger:

This class feels the same no matter how you play it. That isn't very interesting. The trait differences are so passive and the elixirs are too basic. Just like with Virtuoso, toss the useless power line for Harbi. Make elixirs more interesting, even just tossing the empty glasses at people for extra bleeds, Life force, shroud CD reduction, etc. Necro isn't a very complex profession but I hate how the grandmasters are literally the same thing, just with different passive effects. Boring!

Willbender:

This spec needs some damage love to actually do its job properly. If you want it to be a roaming threat, let the off-hand sword not get outclassed by focus. Also a contender for worst elite spec name against Untamed.

 

I understand that PoF specs ruined the game balance and you wanted to be conservative with these.... but these are just bad. Like REALLY bad. Some of them on a conceptual level, not just numbers. Vindi, Cata, and Untamed need the most love. Mech, Harbi, and Virt after that. Willbender and Bladesworn need some changes. Specter is pretty fine and I find it hilarious that the thieves get the best designed spec. I am hopeful the Nov beta will reveal wonderful and thoughtful changes to each of these but there is some serious anxiety in the air over the state of the EoD specs.

you have summed it up well.

i, too, felt like only the thief got a decent spec. everything else, and IMO in particular the catalyst, needs a rework.

[Leigh.6083]

My main gripe is with the aesthetics... Specter being the best example. I don't want those big ugly orbs surrounding my character's head every time I enter combat! 

[oscuro.9720]

This is my Willbender feedback; I played roughly 10 hours of willbender during the beta.

The Virtues:

Overall Changes: 

The virtues need to have active effect on every hit while the stance is active rather than every fifth hit. It gives a more burst oriented gameplay (the only way this spec works from my time on it), and creates real trade offs for switching stances sooner. Right now, I really don’t care if the stance is active or not because it changes nothing. Every 5th hit/normal pacing simply doesn’t work.
For example; Justice stance applies .5 sec burn every hit, Resolve Stance heals 300 for every hit, Courage stance applies 1.5 sec protection (or aegis, which would require a lower duration total, like 1 or .5s) for every hit. 
Don't have the Willbender flames cancel other willbender flames. The way the class plays, you have to constantly be using mobility skills in competitive, meaning the Willbender flames are around for very little time. It removes a degree of battlefield control that the class could really use imo to increase its ability to outmaneuver opponents. Instead, maybe have different flame effects based on the active stance. For example; while justice is active, Willbender flames grant you might when hitting an enemy, while Resolve is active flames chill enemies they hit, while Courage is active flames grant you aegis when hitting a foe. This gives better control effects without requiring a more stagnant play style (like standing in flames, like symbols require). That’s just an off-the-cuff idea, but some way to keep the flames and enhance their effect to increase sustain would probably be beneficial. 

F1

Feedback: The F1 is bad. The mobility is cool and all, but losing active blind (on core) or the utility of spear in exchange for some mobility, a VERY lackluster damage, and a tiny AoE that does nothing in competitive modes is simply not a good trade off. Additionally, the passive only activating while the stance is active is a straight downgrade. The long aftercast/second cast time between the dash and the punch makes it so you can literally walk away from the attack (tested in armistice). The range of the punch is minuscule, making it rarely connect as a stand alone skill, which is what I would want from a mobility skill. Sword 2 is better. The damage is also terrible. Within the confines of what was provided, against glass FA ele it would maybe crit 2k, ik not sure it even got that high. 
Recommendations: There’s a variety of ways this could change. The absolutely necessary change is to increase the speed with which the punch is executed. It can’t have that long of an after cast, and it can’t take that long. I’m pretty sure it’s killed me being stuck in the animation more times than I’ve actually landed it on a non-CC’d opponent (only slightly exaggerating). 
The damage needs to be higher on this skill. The initial hit is where most of the damage comes from right now, and it’s a paltry damage value. A damage value near Rush would work better considering it’s a pretty straightforward dash as well. 
Will bender flames need some changes. First, the flames need to be MUCH larger. In competitive modes it is tiny, and completely avoidable. Not that going in them actually does anything really. The damage should be around symbol level, if not more (considering it’s a class mechanic focused on damage). In its current state, they aren’t something to avoid because it’s ignorable.
Making it a leap finisher would add more utility, especially since light aura pairs extremely well with the radiance line for power builds. 
 

F2

Feedback: Overall, it’s pretty good. The main thing is the stance effect needs to be better. Other than that, it’s pretty good. Not exceptional, but not terrible. Adding a better sustain component to it would be nice, since willbender is EXTREMELY squishy.

Recommendations: Change stance effects. Add a larger Willbender flame effect. Again, if these are supposed to be an impactful part of the class, they should be made relevant in some way. Maybe a way to link these would be to add a healing effect to standing in willbender flames? I don’t know, overall the F2 is not bad at all. 
 

F3

Feedback: Again, this one isn’t bad. It’s a teleport which is great, but the pathing of it is as a dash or leap. I tried to port through a Test of Faith, as I would with sword 2 or JI, and I took 8k damage. That was not fun. 
Recommendations: This needs more range. Not a lot more, but more. I find myself always being about 100 range short of the skills range in the natural flow of combat. Usually it’s another class using an evasive skill to separate, I want to keep pressure, but their evasive skill just out distances the effect. That’s not good, because if I use it, I’ll be locked in an animation ripe for being bursted as it completes. Forcing the opponent to dodger with the actual skill would really change the dynamics. This part might be partially L2P, but I still think the range needs maybe 200-300 more so it can actually apply good pressure. 
 

Sword 4:

Feedback: This skill is just bad. I don’t mean it’s bad because I want it to be OP, it’s bad compared to other similar skills that already exist in the game. Warrior’s Axe 4 does more damage without a precursor hit, with a faster cast time, no secondary cast time, and applies quickness. Landing this skill is so difficult, and is not rewarding in any way. The big hits are critting 1.7k against the zerk Mesmer I tested it in. That’s 3.4K damage for a 3/4 sec cast time on a non-aoe melee skill (also known as bad). There’s a few ways to fix this.

Recommendations: If you keep the precursor strike, have the precursor strike apply super speed, so that I can keep up with the opponent. Even when the precursor hits, if I have cripple or chill, they will walk out of the actual damage. This also lets you proc the skill off of one enemy, and actually hit another, adding a more dynamic play style and increasing mobility (which is the whole point). Then increase the damage. It should be hitting more like 4-6k total (if all strikes land) rather than 3k given its cast time. 
If the precursor strike is removed, increase damage and reduce the cast time dramatically.
As is, it’s clunky and slow and not really worth using many times. I love landing it in combat, because it FEELS like it will be impactful, but then it doesn’t really do much. I honestly don’t mind the precursor strike, it just needs a LOT more impact. 

Sword 5

Feedback: This skill is useful. The dash portion is kinda slow, and can make you eat some damage, but the skill isn’t bad. The Slow and Immob are great, and makes landing it feel rewarding. 
Recommendation: A slightly faster dash portion would be nice. Not necessary, but nice. The range is too small, should be increased a bit. Something like 100 more range on the dash, then 100 range on the teleport threshold would work well. It’s, once again, one of those skills that always feels like it comes up just a LITTLE too short. I would also suggest adding boon strip, which is fairly important for high mobility burst specs to temporarily get protection/stability/resistance/etc.
 

Heal

Feedback: I ditched this after about 5 hours of duels. It is unreliable, slightly buggy, and doesn’t have much impact. The other heals, mostly trained Litany of Wrath (my preferred heal) and Shelter (meta heal), are better. 
Recommendation: I still don’t know what to do with this. Maybe make it a full channel block, then at the end, heal for X amount if you take damage, then convert Y% of the damage taken into barrier. If the damage would’ve been lethal, heal for Z (a value larger than X). Or it could be a stance-type effect so you can keep using abilities while it’s active, to differentiate from Shelter. 
I honestly don’t know what to do with this heal. The foundation is AWESOME. As a Spell main, I love the instant cast counter play that has the ability to turn the tide of a fight. This has that idea, but it simply didn’t turn the tide of anything. Just switching out the heal to Litany or Shelter drastically improved the cadence and survivability ability of the spec. Also add some sort of coupling with will bender flames. Again, if this is a part of the class mechanic, it needs to be stronger. Right now it’s mostly a visual effect imo.
 

Utilities:

The willbender utilities don’t fit any sort of role. They should be CC focused in my opinion, so that will ended is a high mobility and high lock down spec with an assassinish flavor, that makes it play very differently from ordinary guardian. High mobility (already exists in first iteration of willbender) and hard CC are two areas guardian lacks. Meanwhile, the first iteration of willbender lacked burst security despite massive amounts of mobility. Adding hard CC to the utilities would address this and give the will bender actual pressure to pit with its mobility. I would recommend the following utility changes: 

Flash Combo: Teleport to your foe and deliver a flurry of strikes. Final hit stuns for 2s. Gives access to reposte.

Whirlwind Kick: Perform a sweeping kick that burns and knocks down foes

Heel Crack: make melee range, instant cast, daze on regular hit, stun on interrupt

Roiling Light flip skill (Quick Retribution): replace daze with stun.

Heaven’s Palm: make it a 600 range leap with an I-frame. Maybe replace the knokback with a pull so you can gather targets for a burst. 

That will give everything a clear role that is different than everything else; flash combo is a single target burst setup, whirlwind is pbaoe knockdown, heel crack is interrupt, high reaction speed based, Heaven’s Palm is for mobile area control and setting up multi-target bursts.
 

Traits: 

The traits have too much downside relative tot he upside they give imo. My recommendations would be as follows;

Righteous Sprint: replace swiftness with super speed. The trait already gives +25% movement speed. A small burst of superspeed would be much more helpful than 5s swiftness after virtue use.

Adept traits: Add boons to them. They are basic and boring as is, and don’t alter playstyle at all. For example:

Boon Pact: Gain stability (1s) when activating a virtue

Power for Power: Gain might when striking foes with an active stance

Conceited Curate: Gain regeneration and resistance when activating a virtue (honestly dont have a great idea for this one).

Grandmaster Traits: remove the penalties for selecting the traits. It makes them pointless and needlessly handicaps a weak class. For example: 

Pheonix Protocol: still heals

Tyrant’s momentum: doesn’t reduce the duration of lethal tempo

Deathless Courage: Doesnt reduce Courage’s initial duration. 
Also make virtue stances trigger effect on every hit please. That would actually make for a strong espec with advantages and disadvantages 🙂 

 

Overall: The Willbender is fun. It really is. Fighting other willbenders, Virt, and Harb is really fun. But it is very clearly underpowered when fighting current specs. It struggles in some regard vs everything. It’s damage is low, it’s sustain is low, it’s control potential is low. The only thing that is high is it’s mobility. Unlike others, I don’t think it needs a rework. A lot of the “completely unplayable” comments come from people who need to learn to play the espec how it can be played effectively rather than playing it like a typical guard, because it plays absolutely NOTHING like a normal guard (which I absolutely LOVE). The Espec has a ton of potential, has a very good base, but it seems like the design got too restrictive with trade offs (like cancelling will ended flames when new ones are created).

[oscuro.9720]

This is my bladesworn feedback: 

This is a comprehensive list of problems (and solutions) that I identified in the first iteration of the Bladesworn.
I made this with as much objectivity and rationality as I could, with no emotional attachment. Suggested solutions are neither right nor wrong, just what I perceived as the best course of action. 

Qualifications:
~18 hours of game time strictly in competitive modes. Mostly dueling, a moderate amount of small group or solo roaming in WvW, and a handful of pvp matches.

Scope: 
This is limited to competitive modes. 

Feedback:

Large Changes:
Problem #1: Gunblade lacks melee pressure.
Solution: Increase the damage to Blooming Fire (BF). BF is analagous to Maul on range greatsword. It has the same cast time, less range, less damage, less condition application, and does not provide a damage mod for the next attack. Basically it's a downgraded version of maul.

Range should be increased to 240, damage should be buffed by 50-60%

Problem #2: Dragon Trigger damage is extremely low and the payoff does not justify the required setup. 
Solution: Currently, the Slash and Dash have damage ranges on Veteran Golem dummies in Armistice as follows (with 2.3k power, 200% crit damage); 1 charge: 2k | 10 charges: 5-6k
The damage values of the dragon triggers should be as follows on Veteran Golems in Armistice under the same stats (this assumes a critical hit);
Slash: 1 charge: 4.5k | 10 charge: 12k
Boost: 1 charge: 3.5k | 10 charge: 9k (also potentially make this a ground target to give more control to the user)
Reach: 1 charge: 3k | 10 charge: 7k (also fix pathing, it misses targets withing 300 units)
The sloping of the growth curve for competitive modes should be more linear so that going over 5 charges gives an adequate payoff (current difference in non-critical damage between 5 charge and 10 charge is 200, per my testing, and start with a higher minimum output.

  
Problem #3: The skills of the spec are clunky and disrupt the flow of combat, especially the mobility skills.
Solution: 
Break Step: Stops movement momentarily for 1/4 second of the 1/2 second cast time. Remove that and make it behave more in line with Burning Speed, which does not stop forward movement on cast. Increase range to 600.
Dragon Trigger: Remove the 1/4 second cast time on activating the stance. It is unnecessary as there is already a required 1/2 second to build a charge. The 1/4 second is also a window in which using another skill will interrupt it, resulting in no Dragon Trigger. Removing it would create a more cohesive and faster-responding combat style. 
Dragon Slash: Pathing is an issue, 1/2 second cast time on Slash and Reach is too long. Should be 1/4 second, since we already have to charge the skill for a minimum 1/2 second. 
Flicker Step: needs to be 450 range. 300 cant escape many AoE circles or melee pathing of dash skills, like bulls rush or shield bash. 

Problem #4: Explosions need more utility than a single trait.
Solution: Work this into GM traits as follows;
Immortal Dragon; Change so that Explosions heal rather than just Dragon Slash (Dragon Slash is still an explosion)
Unyielding Dragon; Add "Explosions grant might (1 stack, 10s) per target hit"
Daring Dragon; Add "explosions grant endurance (5) per target hit"

Problem #5: Fierce as Fire is useless. Additionally, the Spec lacks access to offensive boons, despite being damage focused. 
Solution: In conjunction with the changes suggested to Unyielding Dragon in Problem #3, rework Fierce as Fire as follows;
Fierce as Fire; Using the last charge of an ammo skill grants offensive boons (might (3 stacks, 5 seconds), Fury (5 seconds), and Swiftness (5s))

Problem #6: Charging burst in competitive modes is not realistic, making using more than 3 charges not realistic (leaving 70% of the bar as unusable)
Solution: Store unspent cartridges in DT, this includes cancelling DT, and getting stunned out of DT. 

Problem #7: Dragon Trigger is excessively vulnerable relative to its lengthy charge time and can easily be cancelled by CC
Solution: Rework Dragonscale Defense as follows;
Dragon Scale Defense: Gain 3/4s protection and 1/4s stability for every charge stored in DT. 
This provides 50% stability uptime and a max out-of-DT prot duration of 2.5s, keeping relative values low and slightly increasing the ability to charge more reliably in competitive modes. 

Problem #8: Unseen Sword is not a good trait. 
Solution: Increase the duration of the swirling hit animation, and give endurance (5) for each time it hits an enemy. 

 

Problem #9: Can't stow gunsaber (stowing is critical in competitive modes as it allows skill cancels)
Solution: Allow stowing of the gunsaber without canceling kit. 

Minor Problems/Bugs;
Problem #10: Dragon Trigger puts weapon swap on CD, making standard weapons never accessible
Solution: Have Dragon Trigger not put weapon swap on CD (I think this was already verified as a bug, but will keep anyways)
Problem #11: Normal weapon set is balanced around having burst skills and feels like it lacks performance without it. 
Solution: Have Dragon Trigger flip over to burst skill when swapping off Gunsaber. Have Burst skills consume 10 flow and be locked into t1 burst.
Problem #12: Dragon Trigger 2 doesn't proc movement skills, such as warrior sprint.
Solution:  Have Dragon Trigger 2 proc movement traits. 
Problem #13: Using Dragon Trigger 2 causes you to auto cast Gunsaber 2 after completing the animation if you hit the 2 button more than once. Without the ability to stow, this often wastes a skill and is frustrating. 
Solution: Have Dragon Trigger 2 not read the next button input so soon.

 

I will update with specific trait changes later.

Edited October 30, 2021 by oscuro.9720

[oscuro.9720]

duplicate post

Edited November 2, 2021 by oscuro.9720
Duplicate post

[Golvellius.7856]

On 10/26/2021 at 5:57 PM, aetemes.2603 said:

 

10000%

Exactly the new especs feel designed by someone who has little regard to class feel fantasy/existing game mechanics/creativity/exciting concepts if not intentionally denying these elements as they don't want to spend time balancing anything due to "new ideas".

 

Then why are you making an expansion at all and creating things that cheapens the overall game feel is my question? The reason I think is ncsoft overlords think they know best and want to force an expac release to "compete" with other mmos. Why not let the more experienced handle it you say? They left after the mass exodus this company had all those pof hots people left. So I don't really want to direct any energy towards the current designers cause ncsoft is probably abusing that they are "new" or giving them no resources or whatever to save costs I think. But the audacity of them to force an expac after doing all that???

What I want to direct energy to is the playerbase who love to celebrate anything a brand does like a religion and a temple to the extent of just prepurchasing just because...but I have played enough games to know it's a losing battle can only help one's own decision...move on lol.

 

I haven't even logged in to the beta.  Thief is my main and I am wholly uninterested in the new espec.  It boggles my mind that the developers came up with this.  It is the opposite of the spirit of the class in just about every way you can think of.  A ranged, support caster...?  That's...just...awful.  The design is created to appease everyone but the people who main it.

Does it play well?  People say it does. 

Does it look cool?  Sure. 

Is it super useful?  Probably.

"So why are thief mains crying?"

Because it's not a thief.  Not at all.

A whole new expansion and we got NOTHING.

[Stago.7608]

People have been asking for a thief support spec for a long time, and got dd and de... finally it happened, I think the specter is pretty good, with some minor improvements. Now thief is viable not just as a pure damage dealer.

Also, it looks like thief main Sindrener (R55) has been liking the spec soooo no not all thief mains are crying about this.

[Stago.7608]

I would add that if you really care that much about the "spirit" of the class, a lot of current especs don't really fit that mold. 

[Jah Warrior.9682]

I was super excited when Rev got a greatsword. I think this class has a ton of pve potential. The concept is very fun. However the execution as it is now leaves much to be desired: 

 

It attacks too slowly, does very little damage, has a mix n mash nightmare of traits. The 'dodge' costs way too much and doesnt do enough to warrant the loss of 2 normal dodges. Both elite skills are not where they should be and need some tuning up. The spear is a net dps loss and the urn I would never use in any situation. 

 

As of right now Alliance does less dps than Jalis Shiro and the class plays worse as a support than Herald. More importantly please please please fix the Alliance switch to lock one legend over the other. The switching between skills is very confusing and adds an extra layer of complexity to this spec.

 

Catalyst and Untamed need some love too, but right now Vindicator is in the number 1 need of some trait, damage and design overhauls. For the traits please consider focusing some of the other threads for things like Leviathan strength, Forerunner of Death, Empire Divided etc. As I am not at that level. 

 

The last thing I will say is if certain traits are fixed AND the dps, attack speed is increased I may consider taking this over dh or holo. Because right now I have no use for this class for any end game content,pvp, wvw (except for ow only because I love rev). Thanks for reading. Please take this into consideration Anet and help Vindicator! 

[Golvellius.7856]

3 hours ago, Stago.7608 said:

I would add that if you really care that much about the "spirit" of the class, a lot of current especs don't really fit that mold. 

 

A) Quote people if you want to call them out on an opinion. 

B) I didn't say "all" thief mains

C) Neither of our opinions is more valid than the other, no matter who approves of what.

D)...put a machine gun in its hands and give it a pet. Doesn't make it a thief.

 

I get that you like it and other people like it. It won't change the fact that it's not a thief and because of that, quite a few people won't like it. 

 

Arguing taste/preference is for knuckle-draggers though and it's obvious that nobody gives a <KitTeN> (did it fer ya there ANet!).  So 🤷🏾‍♂️ In light of that, and the fact that there are too many other things for me to get care about - both in this game and outside of it - I'm just going to let you guys have it. 

 

✌️

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stago.7608]

8 hours ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

 

A) Quote people if you want to call them out on an opinion. 

B) I didn't say "all" thief mains

C) Neither of our opinions is more valid than the other, no matter who approves of what.

D)...put a machine gun in its hands and give it a pet. Doesn't make it a thief.

 

I get that you like it and other people like it. It won't change the fact that it's not a thief and because of that, quite a few people won't like it. 

 

Arguing taste/preference is for knuckle-draggers though and it's obvious that nobody gives a <KitTeN> (did it fer ya there ANet!).  So 🤷🏾‍♂️ In light of that, and the fact that there are too many other things for me to get care about - both in this game and outside of it - I'm just going to let you guys have it. 

 

Yes. I know that neither of our opinions are more valid. But then why should anyone ever express their opinion on the internet? I simply added this to show a different perspective. 

 

No, you didn't say "all" thief mains. True. But you did exaggerate. Nobody is crying about the elite specs.... if they were they likely need to shut down their computer and take some time outside. This is a beta.... the whole point is to test classes and see each of the issues. If each class was absolutely perfect the beta would be a waste of time.

 

Never meant to argue preferences - in fact, my main point was simply that thief is now finally getting a spec that allows them to have a role besides dps in 3 different ways since the beginning of the game. I specifically avoided talking about the "thiefiness" of the class because that is just subjective.

 

This was just to clarify, I'm not trying to make any new points about the elite spec.

[VocalThought.9835]

Here's my feedback about the Elites-

1) Elementalist's Catalyst should change it's F5 from Jade Sphere to an Arcane Attunement, and make it's "Augmented Skills" Well Skills instead. Arcane Attunement would not change all the weapon skill for each weapon, but operate more like Celestial or a Shroud, where it just give you 5 new weapon skills, but when in this Attunement, you get Augmented Abilities when standing in a Well. You can also get different Augmented Abilities when standing in a corresponding Well of the same element. I think this is similar, but better for what they currently have. 

 

2) Necromancer's Harbinger should have it's Elixirs be thrown to the ground, not swallowed, giving a poisonous area effects to enemies and the player's gains blight, another condition, and a boon. Each Elixir should interact with another, giving an additional boon based on the conditions you have, which could have been granted by another Elixir.

 

3) Mesmer's Virtuoso should have an off-hand Dagger, too. 

 

4) Engineer's Machinist should have an F5 skill that one, brings the Mech to you, two let's you pilot the Mech, changing your Weapon skills while inside, and three, dismount the mech. I think this could make up for a lack of a Toolbelt and brings some control to positioning the Mech.

 

5) Thief's Specter could get rid of that sound effects on the weapon.

 

6) Ranger's Untamed should allow players to have new weapon skills available when they become unleashed for every weapon. Some people  recommended just the Weapon 5 skills, almost like how stealth changes the Weapon 1 skills for the Thief. They should also make the Pet skills while Unleashed correspond to the Pet Archetypes and replace the pet swap for another ability. I would like to see the F4 be the Pet Archetype's "unleashed"  skill when their unleashed, but when the player is unleashed you merge into the pet and the weapon skills are now the pets' abilities 1,2,3, Beast Ability, and the Archetype Ability.

 

7) Warrior's Bladesworn is a great idea.

 

8 ) Guardian's Willbender should be more fliud.

 

9) Revenant's Vindicator should do more than just give energy when the Alliance Stance is not selected.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by VocalThought.9835

[Stompy.1387]

Copy pasting some feedback I wrote up elsewhere. I'm Left, that PvE Thief guy, so my feedback is from the perspective of a dungeon/raid tryhard.

 

I was hoping to play a bit more before I wrote all this up, but I didn't remember that the beta was already going to be over today. As I've started to write this up I realized I have a lot more to share than I thought, along with a list of bugs, so I've gone and compiled all the bugs/possible bugs I've found in one list to easily share it. Seeing as how some of the bugs tie into my balance thoughts, some will be mentioned below as well.

 

https://pastebin.com/mnmEGKQB

 

SIPHON/SHROUD

 

Siphon: Not too much to talk about here looking at it by itself. Though it feels like a bit of a shame that allied Siphons don't trigger Steal traits, it would definitely be too powerful if they did.

 

Enter Shroud: From an offensive, defensive, and support standpoint, Shroud in general feels very non-committal and low impact. Though the offensive side of this was exacerbated by the allied Endless Night spam rotation reaching a rather insane 52k DPS, the defensive/support side was the bigger part due to the Consume Shadows trait. Between Alacrity and Lead Attacks (bug?) affecting the cooldown of Enter Shroud, the effective cooldown is only about 5.5 seconds, which is reduced even further when you consider that Enter Shroud recharges while you stay in Shroud. 

 

Due to the insane scaling of this trait, you don't need much Shadow Force to power a big heal. Rather than staying in Shroud to heal your tethered target as the skills might imply, it instead is much more effective to frequently build up small amounts of Shroud and insta dump them to perpetually main high amounts of barrier on everybody around you. Since Barrier lasts for 5 seconds, which isn't much shorter than the effective cooldown of Enter Shroud, the barrier almost never drops, which flips the design from trying to maximize your time in Shroud to maximize your supportive abilities to instead minimizing your time in Shroud so you can get back to generating more Shadow Force.

 

=

 

Shroud Skills: Aside from what was already mentioned above, the supportive side of Shroud skills feel weak due to their single target nature. Instanced PvE content in this game is in groups of 5 or 10 players, and outside of an extremely small number of tanking scenarios, the extra support is never needed on just one player instead of the entire group. Outside of the sweatiest 1% of optimizations, if a support ability does not affect the entire group or subgroup, it will instead be treated as if it does not exist. No group is looking for Torment to be cleared on just one person for Dhuum's Greater Death Mark, or Stability on just one person for the arm slams on Deimos 10% phase.

 

Aside from that, being able to see exact Shadow Shroud amounts would be cool, similar to how we can see it on Necro Shrouds.

 

=

 

WEAPONS SKILLS

 

Auto attack chain: While the overall power level of the auto chain feels fine to me, it's a bit unintuitive that targeting your allies with auto attacks is more effective damage than targeting the enemy. This disparity is increased even further when taking the Strength of Shadows GM trait, to the point that it removes any active thought about the issue; with allied autos dealing twice the Torment while simultaneously supporting your team, the only reason to target an enemy with autos is if you do not have an ally around you. Reversing that power level would instead make you constantly have to think: "Should I keep on supporting here, or can I greed in some more DPS?" That being said, I have to say that I VERY much enjoy the design of how these weapon skills synergize with Dark Sentry to make the allied versions of the skills not feel completely passive, indirect as it may be.

 

=

 

Shadow Sap: Of all the weapon skills, this is the only one that strikes me as weak. The enemy version of this skill gives Weakness, which is sadly rather useless in PvE entirely. Bosses with breakbars ignore the condition entirely, plus, the soft CC more or less ignorable. Enemies without breakbars are generally only threatening in groups, in which case a single target Weakness is the last thing you're going to be looking for if you're seeking damage mitigation. The allied version gives Barrier instead, but it's not like the barrier is much different than what you'd get from either Twilight Combo or Endless Night, which both have better secondary effects. The self Might or allied Might suffers from the same issues as I explained previously; single target boons are almost completely ignored in group content. I thought about this for a while, and the one situation I could think of where you may get considerable use of this skill would be in a duo situation on a heal Specter build; that being said, none of the PvE content in this game is designed for duo situations, so I don't think that should even be considered as a factor when talking balance.

 

How to rebalance it? This is something I struggle to think of a good solution for. Buffing the might to be 5 man would allow a boon specter to function as a 5 man might stacker, but I fear that giving a class access to 5 man Quickness, Alacrity, Might, and Fury all at once in addition to the healing and barrier it does is a bit too much role compression. Then again, aside from Alacrity, Firebrand does all that and more, so maybe I'm just wrong on that one.

 

=

 

Twilight Combo: Honestly, I don't really have too much to say about this skill. It does it's job very well as a bread and butter ini dump in my opinion, and I don't think it needs to be changed much. My only complaint about it is just a feeling that's hard to describe - to me, compared to other ini dump skills like Cloak and Dagger, Weakening Charge, or Three Round burst, it feels like each cast of the skill isn't very distinct from the next, especially with Quickness. This could possibly be due to the back half/aftercast of the skill being very fast, or maybe I just didn't play enough with it to get used to it.

 

=

 

Measured Shot/Endless Night: This is what I spend the majority of my time casting, due to the extreme power level of the skills. Starting off with the balance side of things, Endless Night suffers from the same issue as the auto chains which is that the allied version is more offensive than the enemy version, while simultaneously pumping out very strong boons and barrier. This scales to extreme amounts, to the point where when you have enough allies to apply your Rot Wallow venom you start to reach the silly territory of dealing nearly 52k DPS while simultaneously theoretically pumping out permanent quickness, regen, and considerable barrier to 9 players, assuming correct positioning.

 

This revolves around what I presume to be a bug; Dark Sentry, the trait that grants Rot Wallow Venom on each application of barrier. Despite being listed as having a 1 second internal cooldown, this ICD did not seem to be present in any form during the beta. Working under the assumption that this ICD is meant to be on the application of the venom from the ally to the enemy (like Ashes of the Just), while the correct function of the trait would do well to smooth out the high condi burst potential of the skill, it does not solve the underlying issue at hand; allied Endless Night gives out an absurd 21 stacks of Rot Wallow Venom to your team, assuming good positioning. Whilst the ICD in combination with the rather short 10 second duration of the buff would prevent the skill from being spammed on the same 3 targets, this is easily bypassable in a 10 man raid environment by either coordinated or random spreading of the buff.

 

=

 

In the end, the core of the issue is that rapid multi target Barrier applications scales wildly out of hand with the Dark Sentry trait. After getting my hands on the spec, my initial thoughts from before remain the same; without massive redesign of the underlying skill/trait interactions, I can only come up with two reasonable solutions; either reduce the barrier to single target while buffing the boons to be 5 man, or to combine all the pulses of the skill into a single application. 

 

While the former falls in nicely with the "Get down Mr. President!" theme of the spec, it suffers from the same previously mentioned issue of single target support largely being ignored in group content. Furthermore, if combined with an Ashes-esque ICD on Rot Wallow applications, spamming the skill would quickly stack up more Rot than the ally could consume, which lead players towards what I would think is a rather annoying design having to click through players one at a time to spread out the Rot Venom.

 

On the other hand, the latter solution would nicely cap the Rot Venom to 5 stacks, assuming a complementary change to 5 man support. Again, keeping this to less damage than the enemy targeted version returns the active question of continuing to support versus greeding DPS. That being said, the beam animation of the skill doesn't really make sense for such an effect, so that would likely need to be modified.

 

=

 

Moving away from the balance discussion of this skill, the bigger reason why I want to advocate for 5 man boons on Endless Night is for simple usability. While the current numbers more than allow for maintaining quickness on 5 players, it leads to some not-so-fun situations. As I mentioned previously, in 5 man content, the current 3 target nature of Endless Night leads to one player being shafted on the boons, which you can imagine would be very frustrating for the person who expected to get the Quickness and cancelled key skills because of it. In 10 man content, it gets even worse; the UI starts to rear its head. With the 10 man squad view, you cannot see who has what boons. 

 

Traditional 5 man Quickness givers like Chronomancer are able to deal with this by looking at their own boon bar; assuming the allies have been stacking properly, if you have the boons, so should they. Specter can't use this method; on top of not getting any of their own boons, the 3 target nature of the skill means that you have to click through each of your allies and look at their boon bars to see who is missing quickness. Using the "subgroup view" is not an acceptable solution due to not being able to see the health bars of your other allies, which is very important information.

 

=

 

Wrapping up the "usability" discussion, the beam nature of the skill made it incredibly hard to correctly use in live combat. Forced movement in a rotation can spice things up, but when taken to extreme levels (like P/D condi Deadeye) it can completely turn people off from playing the spec, myself included. Allied Measured Shot does exactly this, and the ramifications amplify when you consider the positioning requirements of an Endless Night beam. Allied Measured Shot is going to teleport you very close to the ally you selected, which doesn't play nicely with allied Endless Night needing you to target the furthest away ally in a line to cleave all three allies. Current targeting options in the game simply do not support such accurate and rapid allied target switching.

 

Enemy Measured Shot's backwards teleport, just like Shadow Strike on P/D, is very jarring to occur so frequently on your bread and butter ini dump. Perhaps the mobility could be moved from this skill over to Shadow Sap in order to repurpose it? And as a last aside I couldn't figure out where else to place, in order to discourage swapping between the enemy and ally for every MS/EN combo, maybe move the Regen from EN to MS?

 

=

TRAIT SELECTIONS

 

Adept Traits:

Consume Shadows dominates the Adept trait choices, for reasons I already listed above.

 

Major Traits:

Of the three, Amplified Siphoning is the only one that I feel doesn't have much of a place in PvE. Larcenous Torment nicely does it's job as your aggressive Shadow Force generation option, while Traversing Darkness does the same for the support side. Amplified Siphoning seems to favor more of a hit and run playstyle you'd expect in something like PvP, but I'm not sure where I'd ever use it in PvE.

 

Grandmaster Traits:

Just like the Major tier, Strength of Shadows nicely fills the offense, while Shadestep fills the support. Hungering Darkness, however, is focused completely on condition removal, which is not a very big part of PvE content. Seems great for PvP, but I'm not sure where I'd ever use it in PvE

 

=

 

HEAL/UTILITY/ELITE SKILLS

 

Well of Sorrow immediately strikes me as very weak. Seeing as how all three condis are practically guaranteed to be on any boss in group content, you're most likely looking at just 5 stacks of rather Torment. While the skill does have some nice mobility attached to it, it is very weak numbers-wise compared to its direct competitor, Thousand Needles.

 

I'm not quite sure on how to feel about Well of Bounty, but Bovan's previously mentioned suggestion about boon extension does seem very, very fun to me. If it is to apply 1s of extension on each pulse, however, the cooldown would need to be greatly increased.

 

=

 

That ends the copy pasta. Formatting may have gotten a bit scuffed, but all the content should be there.

[Golvellius.7856]

On 10/31/2021 at 12:34 PM, Stago.7608 said:

 

Yes. I know that neither of our opinions are more valid. But then why should anyone ever express their opinion on the internet? I simply added this to show a different perspective. 

 

No, you didn't say "all" thief mains. True. But you did exaggerate. Nobody is crying about the elite specs.... if they were they likely need to shut down their computer and take some time outside. This is a beta.... the whole point is to test classes and see each of the issues. If each class was absolutely perfect the beta would be a waste of time.

 

Never meant to argue preferences - in fact, my main point was simply that thief is now finally getting a spec that allows them to have a role besides dps in 3 different ways since the beginning of the game. I specifically avoided talking about the "thiefiness" of the class because that is just subjective.

 

This was just to clarify, I'm not trying to make any new points about the elite spec.

 

Apparently my post was "rude"...and it was deleted.  Second time this has happened...and like the last time, it was just me using a ridiculous amount of words and being goofy.  I know how to have civilized conversation and I have been around many forums over the past 20+ years.  I've never seen the kind of overly sensitive moderation that goes on here.  Am I even allowed to say that?

Disclaimer: This is not intended to hurt, belittle, insult, or otherwise provoke anyone - but to defend my own priceless opinion on the internet. 

@Stago.7608

We are both challenging each others' statements/opinions.  Let's get that out of the way.  That's literally what discussion boards are for and is certainly the case when quoting and replying to each other.  I won't attempt to invalidate whether or not someone likes something - and have been repeating that mantra constantly.  I am here though, to argue the label of that thing and how important I think it is.  I'm here for that ALL DAY LONG. 

To take this in a constructive direction, and address all of your points (hopefully without writing a book,  and/or getting jailed by the mods) thematics matter.  Not to a few people...TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.  You can dismiss certain aspects only so many times before you lose the theme.  You can call this subjective or preference if you want.  At the end of the day, creators start treading into pretentious territory when they prioritize their "vision" and sacrifice too much of the core of a theme (This is why a lot of DC fans are put off with Zach Snyder, BTW).

A Thief's without his "Thiefiness" is what exactly? 

Are we really going to sit here and say this doesn't matter?  In a fantasy role playing game?  We might as well say a ranger/hunter doesn't need a nature aspect.  How about we make him a street-wise bounty hunter (he's still technically a "hunter" right?) who has learned the wilderness of the city and we give him a golem "pet."  That's fine, right? If it's all good, how about we give a warrior a wand and tell him to channel his rage through it.  Revenants channel legendary spirits?  How about next expansion they just create their own destiny and channel their own legendary spirit?  If it's just subjective, then it's all good. 

It's not all good though.  It's only good for people who don't care "what it looks like."  I am not one of those people.  I care and I think it matters just as much, if not more, than structured playstyle viability. Which...obviously matters too.  I'm saying work within the theme to do it.  The Specter is not a thief or assassin in any way.  It's a support caster and as such is just about as far away from the archetype as you can get.

On a final note, I've always been a super-supportive/positive type of internet poster. I always laughed at those guys who said, "I'm leaving." here I am one of those guys...lol. (BTW mods, I'm laughing at myself...and not trying to laugh at someone else and provoke them).  I'm not inspired by what I'm seeing out of EoD.  If this is a sign of what matters to the GW2 devs and its community, then so long and thanks for all the fish.

 

I've got too much in my Steam queue to be so concerned about this game (particularly Lost Ark which, thank goodness for beta this weekend). 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Golvellius.7856
Spaces

[Duglaive.5236]

 

Coming from a majority PVE (fractals, light raid, solo champs/bounties) perspective; written up in the order played during betas. This is more of my individual reactions to each class, rather than in-depth critique, and whether I'll actually give said classes a go when EoD launches. It should also be noted that having played and betaed other mmos in the past, my current belief is that most things get released in a form much like their beta versions, except for minor tweaking of numbers and bug issues. Very often regardless of the quality and quantity of beta tester/player feedback.

 

Virtuoso: beyond the rather odd name (an artist specializing in pink illusionary blades? Ok, then), pretty fun to play if I can keep my mind off the color scheme of the spells. But admittedly as I despise those colors it does get to me rather quickly. If one likes the colors, however, I can see this class being effective in fracs and some raid encounters; not so much for the solo stuff I enjoy doing. I *might* try this at launch, but likely the excessive pink and lavender saturation will stop me.

 

Willbender: again, an odd name imo. My mind kept wanting to call it Willbreaker, and I still do. Makes more sense to me considering what the class is supposedly about. Anyway, my biggest takeaway/impression of the class was that despite the added mobility for a guardian spec, the actual damaging attacks came about too slowly: flashy and speedy with no added punch to show for it. Sadly, I just couldn't get myself hyped for this one in any meaningful way. I suppose I just don't see what it offers that I don't already have in another class/spec that isn't more enjoyable.

 

Harbinger: I like the name, though other than impending death I'm not sure what the name is supposedly implying. An admittedly minor issue for me is the weapon choice: thematically it doesn't fit a necromancer of any spec imho. That said, I didn't mind using said weapon; though I do wish it had been dual pistols. Would have fit the whole gunslinger vibe they seemed to have been trying for. Overall, however, I did have one big issue with this spec: what does it offer that my condi renegade does not? *And* it does what it does best only by hurting itself with the new Blight mechanic. One can build to mitigate much of that mechanic, but it's there and is detrimental to efficiency. I'll likely still try it at release as I have this entire character persona in mind for it that I find personally hilarious, but whether I keep at it long term is another story.

 

Catalyst: not a fan of the weapon choice (for me it just seems odd for a cloth wearing, scholarly class to be carrying around and swinging such a heavy weapon). But beyond that, I didn't enjoy the execution of the mechanics, and the needed and frenzied attunement swapping was hard on the tendinitis in my hands. So I ended up with very little time on this one, and won't be giving it a go at release unless it should drastically change before then.

 

Bladesworn: 5 seconds of channeling (sans quickness) for really big damage ... which I do imagine being nerfed before launch. The damage, not the channel. For a spec with a new mechanic called flow, they sure took the flow out of combat with that channel. I can see this new spec shining in some group encounters with a quickbrand and perhaps one of the new specters attached at the hip, but I seriously doubt I'll ever play it.

 

Vindicator: I really like the name; almost as much as the base name of revenant. In the beginning I wasn't too keen on the gameplay, however: the new dual-legend; their flipping utilities; and the new dodge were, at best, very frustrating. I personally feel the dual legend still is, and as currently implemented will continue to be so. After a lot of experimentation with the given customizable gear and trait lines I came up with a build I *really* had a lot of fun playing. The only thing I'd like to see change is the greatsword's damage to be upped a bit, and for it's aesthetics to get a slight rework. Oh, and the #5 skill needs a target cap of 5, not the underwhelming 3 it currently has. Though I can't see this new spec being that great for much of what I do as currently designed, I sure as hell had a great time just running around in OW PvE with the build I came up with. A definite will-play-at-release spec for me.

 

Untamed: I'm sure there were many names mulled over during the process to find that "perfect" one ... Which makes me wonder how this one made the cut and won out. But, as with many of the new espec names, oh well. With that out of the way, I found this spec very unsatisfying to play. As implemented, the spec feels limiting (and actually is when considering the new hammer and Unleashed mechanics) and plays like a weaker version of core. Perhaps more interesting than core, but not stronger. And certainly not more interesting - and not nearly as strong - as either Druid or Soulbeast. This one was a huge letdown for me. 

 

Mechanist: I'll start by saying I had a pretty good time running around in OW PvE as a rifle Mechanist, simply blowing up some mobs that are typically annoying or tedious (if not hard). I'll admit that I did not try this class in anything other than ow pve; I just can't see it being useful or desirable in more difficult group content. The mech itself is just a ranger pet on steroids, that accepts some minor customization and limited control commands. But make no mistake, you can bet some or most of those steroids will be taken away at some point. And when that happens, hello weak-as-you-know-what weaker than core engineer. I want to create a Mechanist at launch, but part of me asks, why bother? The Jade Mech in its current form will not last long.

 

Specter: and lastly, the class I didn't even try. I have friends who like it; watched other players be effective with it, etc. But it's a caster, not a thief. And so, a non-starter for me. Happy for those that are excited and find it fun.

 

Obviously, the vast majority of the above is subjective and personal opinion. That said, I can't help thinking that subjective thoughts and personal opinions are the biggest guides to what most players end creating and sticking with. Oh, there are min-maxing raid types who will play a class and build they absolutely hate for efficiency's sake (having personally done just that in past mmos/games) of course. But I'm fairly certain that such are the exception, and most certainly not the rule.

 

[Stago.7608]

3 hours ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

 

Apparently my post was "rude"...and it was deleted.  Second time this has happened...and like the last time, it was just me using a ridiculous amount of words and being goofy.  I know how to have civilized conversation and I have been around many forums over the past 20+ years.  I've never seen the kind of overly sensitive moderation that goes on here.  Am I even allowed to say that?

Disclaimer: This is not intended to hurt, belittle, insult, or otherwise provoke anyone - but to defend my own priceless opinion on the internet. 

@Stago.7608

We are both challenging each others' statements/opinions.  Let's get that out of the way.  That's literally what discussion boards are for and is certainly the case when quoting and replying to each other.  I won't attempt to invalidate whether or not someone likes something - and have been repeating that mantra constantly.  I am here though, to argue the label of that thing and how important I think it is.  I'm here for that ALL DAY LONG. 

To take this in a constructive direction, and address all of your points (hopefully without writing a book,  and/or getting jailed by the mods) thematics matter.  Not to a few people...TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.  You can dismiss certain aspects only so many times before you lose the theme.  You can call this subjective or preference if you want.  At the end of the day, creators start treading into pretentious territory when they prioritize their "vision" and sacrifice too much of the core of a theme (This is why a lot of DC fans are put off with Zach Snyder, BTW).

A Thief's without his "Thiefiness" is what exactly? 

Are we really going to sit here and say this doesn't matter?  In a fantasy role playing game?  We might as well say a ranger/hunter doesn't need a nature aspect.  How about we make him a street-wise bounty hunter (he's still technically a "hunter" right?) who has learned the wilderness of the city and we give him a golem "pet."  That's fine, right? If it's all good, how about we give a warrior a wand and tell him to channel his rage through it.  Revenants channel legendary spirits?  How about next expansion they just create their own destiny and channel their own legendary spirit?  If it's just subjective, then it's all good. 

It's not all good though.  It's only good for people who don't care "what it looks like."  I am not one of those people.  I care and I think it matters just as much, if not more, than structured playstyle viability. Which...obviously matters too.  I'm saying work within the theme to do it.  The Specter is not a thief or assassin in any way.  It's a support caster and as such is just about as far away from the archetype as you can get.

On a final note, I've always been a super-supportive/positive type of internet poster. I always laughed at those guys who said, "I'm leaving." here I am one of those guys...lol. (BTW mods, I'm laughing at myself...and not trying to laugh at someone else and provoke them).  I'm not inspired by what I'm seeing out of EoD.  If this is a sign of what matters to the GW2 devs and its community, then so long and thanks for all the fish.

 

I've got too much in my Steam queue to be so concerned about this game (particularly Lost Ark which, thank goodness for beta this weekend). 

I completely understand what you mean. I agree that the "theme" of the class is important and the perspective as gw2 is an RPG. You also said that the viability of thief from a gameplay perspective also matters. And your wish for them to work within the theme to accomplish their goals is reasonable as well.

But I'll defend Anet here, at least just for the Specter. Certainly there may have been better ways to implement the theme of the specialization of thief as a support, even as a ranged support as you say. But I think there is something to be said about the thief style of playing affecting the flow/feel of the class (perhaps even the theme): as a ranged character it would seem that Anet abandoned this feel, but I would argue otherwise. The Specter gets 5! new shadowsteps (600 range only). More importantly, their value lies in the wells that are placed down in the area that you shadowstep to. This encourages players to use these aggressively, either to jump into a teamfight melee or chase down an enemy, this makes the flow of the play feel much more close combat and tricky, (thiefy?) because of the multitude of ports you have available. While this may be just a small example, I would say that this shows that hiding behind the general cloak of 'Specter: ranged support caster', thief's core mechanics still affect the spec heavily, and the elite spec has new thiefiness itself. I think that looking at the whole spec so broadly can lose some of the smaller mechanics that make the class feel unique. Ranged, (but with strong potential for switching melee) support (able to increase damage of allies but also deal strong blows solo) caster (but can switch weapons for damage).

 

GW2 has this breaking of the "holy trinity" idea that is touted by some as a way show that "every class can play the important roles". While this support spec for thief will likely not affect those playing thief for the dps, I think it is an important step to meeting this idea. This is a roundabout way to get back to my main point but, I think that even though this elite spec may not feel like playing like a thief at first, the playstyle still encourages close range thiefy damage, while supporting your team. You can still play like a thief even if it may not look exactly like a thematic thief. (To that point, I agree that the appearance of the Specter looks more like some caster class as opposed to a roguelike class). I do think that the playstyle will have a greater effect on enjoyment/perception of the class than perhaps pure appearance/effect. 

[Golvellius.7856]

11 hours ago, Stago.7608 said:

I completely understand what you mean. I agree that the "theme" of the class is important and the perspective as gw2 is an RPG. You also said that the viability of thief from a gameplay perspective also matters. And your wish for them to work within the theme to accomplish their goals is reasonable as well.

But I'll defend Anet here, at least just for the Specter. Certainly there may have been better ways to implement the theme of the specialization of thief as a support, even as a ranged support as you say. But I think there is something to be said about the thief style of playing affecting the flow/feel of the class (perhaps even the theme): as a ranged character it would seem that Anet abandoned this feel, but I would argue otherwise. The Specter gets 5! new shadowsteps (600 range only). More importantly, their value lies in the wells that are placed down in the area that you shadowstep to. This encourages players to use these aggressively, either to jump into a teamfight melee or chase down an enemy, this makes the flow of the play feel much more close combat and tricky, (thiefy?) because of the multitude of ports you have available. While this may be just a small example, I would say that this shows that hiding behind the general cloak of 'Specter: ranged support caster', thief's core mechanics still affect the spec heavily, and the elite spec has new thiefiness itself. I think that looking at the whole spec so broadly can lose some of the smaller mechanics that make the class feel unique. Ranged, (but with strong potential for switching melee) support (able to increase damage of allies but also deal strong blows solo) caster (but can switch weapons for damage).

 

GW2 has this breaking of the "holy trinity" idea that is touted by some as a way show that "every class can play the important roles". While this support spec for thief will likely not affect those playing thief for the dps, I think it is an important step to meeting this idea. This is a roundabout way to get back to my main point but, I think that even though this elite spec may not feel like playing like a thief at first, the playstyle still encourages close range thiefy damage, while supporting your team. You can still play like a thief even if it may not look exactly like a thematic thief. (To that point, I agree that the appearance of the Specter looks more like some caster class as opposed to a roguelike class). I do think that the playstyle will have a greater effect on enjoyment/perception of the class than perhaps pure appearance/effect. 

So, full on disclaimers:  First, and foremost...hate it.  Yeah, hate's a strong word...and I hate this concept a lot.  I've watched ANet deep dive into it. I've watched a few videos of people using it in PvP and PVE.  I've had discussions with people about what you can expect from the class.  I get it.  I still hate it.  A lot.  Also, I'm voicing my opinion here primarily for the devs (if it matters at all) and to push back against those who don't take this point of view seriously.  Lastly...incoming book.

I have every class except...man I can't even think of the name of it...lol.  Hold on.  I literally have to google it...Elementalist.  I don't have an Ele because I can't really get into straight up casters.  I've spent the most time with Necro, Thief, and Warrior respectively...1600+ hours if you want a number.  So why is it that I love the Necro, while I despise the Specter?  Shroud can grant barrier literally the same as Scourge (and I played A LOT of Scourge) and has its own Shroud skills just like the Reaper.  It drops wells, which I have a ton of experience with situationally switching to ranged staff.  I have been told, repeatedly, that you can generate nice condi damage.

But this is all Necro-junk...and I already have a Necro for that.  I don't want to do any of that on my Thief. 🤷🏾‍♂️ What distinguishes this spec? Because to me it's just like...

Spoiler

 

I can't pretend this thing is a thief.  I've suffered through as much video as I can watching it sling a wand at targets and teleport, which is not exclusive to the Thief BTW. That's just not the weapon mechanic for me.  Not on my main guy.

Then there's the barrier heals.  Targeting an ally in trouble and...healing them?  Again.  Not really my cup of tea - though I've done it with my Engineer and my Reaper and Scourge in 5-mans.  I heard Cal Cohen go into depth about how tanky you can get with self-shroud, so I assume there's solo survivability/viability there too...

...and sure, we don't have to use the wand.  I didn't care for the Deadeye, but the homebrewed Pistol/Pistol Deadeye is a lot of fun (currently what my benched Thief is using).  So, I'm sure there's something I can do with it.  The difference is I really just don't like the package that this espec is in.  Like wrapping a station wagon chassis/cabin around a mustang engine...yeah the mechanics work, but it's in the wrong body.  I'm sure "arcane thief" works in DnD, but the vision has gotten lost in the translation to GW2. Out of curiosity, I showed the gameplay to my wife (who plays casually) and she loves it.  Then again, she gravitates towards casting, support, and healing.

Lastly, and what actually concerns me more than the concept or mechanics (both of which I feel compelled to say I hate...again), is the idea that the devs are all in on a support thief.  Who is asking for this?  I'm not saying it's not a valid ask or that NOBODY is asking.  I'm genuinely curious as to how large the ask for this is.  Surely it can't be the casual player who rolls an assassin and then dreams of healing and support.  Who is struggling to do what and where in this game with a Thief where healing/support fills a hole?  Thieves can't get into dungeons/fractals?  Are they useless in WvW? PvP an issue? Where are thieves struggling to get work so badly where adding healing/support opens an otherwise shut (or narrow) door?

Are we talking about Raiding...? 

Are we doing this to facilitate equal min/max/meta theory-crafting across all classes for high-level endgame content?  That would be the opposite of the game I signed up for a decade ago. That game didn't depend on a holy trinity and just wanted to get players playing. You wouldn't necessarily need thief heals/support for that game.  Admittedly, I don't know much about the game it has become in that regard because...I have an aversion to that crowd.

I think I have talked enough on this thread. I would genuinely like for someone to educate me on where this support thief is going to be absolutely useful and necessary to the point that it has to drive a whole espec concept for the sake of class equality/representation.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Golvellius.7856
edit for spellin'

[Akethon.5108]

Hello

 

I would like first to say that Anet could have done better on the specializations in general. Most of them are using mechanics from previous specs and others look like copies of each other (Ex. Untamed & Mechanist, and i add that is more fun to play with the Mechanist, my opinion obviously).

I have been playing GW franchise for almost 20 years and its my favorite game of all time. So, it kinda hurts to see a bit of lack of imagination. So many things shared between the GW community that sounded so much better but nothing became reality. 

 

Now i would like at least to leave my suggestion for the Revenant spec, Vindicator, i think the idea is brilliant but the mechanic is soooo poor. It just flips skills, that's it.  The dodge idea is fine, although taken from an existing mechanic, it doesn't feel very normal for this class but its fine. i like the way it plays with the Grandmaster Trait. 

But in terms of mechanic i think instead of flipping skills each Champion could gives us some passive buff to stats that we then could change between the Champions depending on situation. In terms of skills, and here, this would be "breaking the rules", lets us choose freely between the 2 types of skills related to the Champions and the 4th utility skill that no Revenant spec have. 

[oscuro.9720]

On 10/30/2021 at 8:10 AM, Golvellius.7856 said:

 

I haven't even logged in to the beta.  Thief is my main and I am wholly uninterested in the new espec.  It boggles my mind that the developers came up with this.  It is the opposite of the spirit of the class in just about every way you can think of.  A ranged, support caster...?  That's...just...awful.  The design is created to appease everyone but the people who main it.

Does it play well?  People say it does. 

Does it look cool?  Sure. 

Is it super useful?  Probably.

"So why are thief mains crying?"

Because it's not a thief.  Not at all.

A whole new expansion and we got NOTHING.

I believe that’s the intent behind many especs; to give a very different and unique way of playing a class so that it feels radically different.

See: Specter, Virtuoso, Bladesworn, Willbender, Mechanist — all these drastically change the way the class plays. They are less of an extension of the class, more of a rework in a single trait line.

[KinkyPotato.4219]

59 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I believe that’s the intent behind many especs; to give a very different and unique way of playing a class so that it feels radically different.

See: Specter, Virtuoso, Bladesworn, Willbender, Mechanist — all these drastically change the way the class plays. They are less of an extension of the class, more of a rework in a single trait line.

Except they aren't really unique because a big portion of their playstyles already exist in the game, just in other professions. Thieves gained Necro Shroud, Warriors gained an Engineer Kit, Guardians gained Thief Shadowsteps, Engineers gained a beefed up Ranger pet...not really different if you've already delved into other classes. It just feels very lazy when you take a step back and take a good look at them.

Edited November 2, 2021 by KinkyPotato.4219

[oscuro.9720]

5 hours ago, KinkyPotato.4219 said:

Except they aren't really unique because a big portion of their playstyles already exist in the game, just in other professions. Thieves gained Necro Shroud, Warriors gained an Engineer Kit, Guardians gained Thief Shadowsteps, Engineers gained a beefed up Ranger pet...not really different if you've already delved into other classes. It just feels very lazy when you take a step back and take a good look at them.

That’s a fair argument. Having only really put enough time into bladesworn and willbender to give what I consider informed feedback, I can say that while they are similar to other classes (will bender is much more like sword+shiro rev turned into a full spec of its own imo, doesn’t play like thief all that much imo), they still behave quite differently due to their core profession and feel different than what is already in game (much moreso with bladesworn than Willbender, as bladesworn has dragon trigger, new resource management, etc., but will was clearly not finished so…).

At the same time, I did play some mechanist, which felt like engineer with an OP ranger pet slapped on. I can’t speak to specter at all outside of 10 minutes hitting a golem and what thief friends have told me. So I guess there’s varying degrees. 

[Avatara.1042]

Catalyst is very stressful, and has too many mechanics which conflict and are out of your control.  Probably needs a total rework.