When can we get a playable Tengu Race? [Merged]

[Faridah.8431]

8 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Honestly, it makes more sense than anything else in this game. I mean you literally enter Mordremoth's mind to kill him, he gives you the way into his mind, knows you are going to do it, and does absolutely nothing to stop it. And that is just one example. I can do this for days. And let's think about this from a logical standpoint, new races gets hype from people outside the game. I hear all the time about the exciting new races coming to WoW and FF14 and multiple people going to go back to the game to play it. Want to know how much I hear about fishing from other MMO chats? None. Want to know the reaction I get when I mention fishing? "Really? that's it? We have fishing here, and I don't think I have ever done it."

Look I am a GW1 veteran, so you won't see me defending much of this GW2 storyline and especially some big parts of it that were just big "WTF" moments. But you are conflating every bad thing there with how new things like playable races should be handled. Again as it stands right now, regardless of current race, the player character has a specific role in the story, heck put the story aside and just say within the world and movement of the world. A new Tengu introduced now would not have been in the Pact, let alone Pact Commander, have anything to do with Aurene, played through the areas and things we have, etc. Take your opinions out about how you feel about such story elements and just recognize that a new race like Tengu still has to slot in in a way that makes sense. Could it be done, yes? I just don't see them doing it.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Faridah.8431

[Faridah.8431]

3 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

And this is where you are being stubborn. No one cares about these stories. And this is why it would be a new game + race. It will assume the story is already done, no need to go back to change dialog, no need for the commander because all the Elder Dragons are dead. None of it matters anymore. And again, why EoD? What the hell is in Cantha for Tengu? It would be something after all the dragons are dead because that is where the GW2 story ends.

Yeah why Cantha for Tengu? Again, fail to see why anyone expected Tengu in the Cantha expansion. My only point with it is less hyper focused on Cantha and more just how do you slot in a role for a new race developed through its 0-80 content and where do you put said content?

[Esorono.1039]

3 minutes ago, Faridah.8431 said:

Look I am a GW1 veteran, so you won't see me defending much of this GW2 storyline and especially some big parts of it that were just big "WTF" moments. But you are conflating every bad thing there with how new things like playable races should be handled. Again as it stands right now, regardless of current race, the player character has a specific role in the story, heck put the story aside and just say within the world and movement of the world. A new Tengu introduced now would not have been in the Pact, let alone Pact Commander, have anything to do with Aurene, played through the areas and things we have, etc. Take your opinions out about how you feel about such story elements and just recognize that a new race like Tengu still has to slot in in a way that makes sense. Could it be done, yes? I just don't see them doing it.

I will repeat it for a third time, and I will try to make it easier to read this time. ---> IT WOULD BE A NEW RACE PLUS! <---- All the pact commander stuff wouldn't be relevant. And of course it wouldn't be in Cantha, Cantha has nothing to do with Tengu. It would be after that story is complete to save us from another mastery like digging for the expansion after that because they just killed off the last of GW2's plot hooks like it was nothing. And it doesn't matter if the race makes sense, (ignoring for the fact that it would if you actually talked to them), because literally nothing in the game makes sense. If this was all turned out to be a Sylvari's dream after their pod was submerged in beer, it would make more sense than what it is currently.

[Faridah.8431]

16 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

And it doesn't matter if the race makes sense, (ignoring for the fact that it would if you actually talked to them), because literally nothing in the game makes sense.

And this is why we are at an impasse. I'm going to leave this alone now. There's no point in trying to have a logical discussion when you're whole point is predicated on "who cares, do whatever".

Edited August 12, 2021 by Faridah.8431

[Obtena.7952]

35 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

And this is where you are being stubborn. No one cares about these stories. And this is why it would be a new game + race. It will assume the story is already done, no need to go back to change dialog, no need for the commander because all the Elder Dragons are dead. None of it matters anymore. And again, why EoD? What the hell is in Cantha for Tengu? It would be something after all the dragons are dead because that is where the GW2 story ends.

IF anything, the story is the ONLY reason to add a new race ... so if no one cares about the story, then there isn't a reason to add one. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

IF anything, the story is the ONLY reason to add a new race ... so if no one cares about the story, then there isn't a reason to add one. 

 

 

 

 

I'd say it is the last reason. The more important reason would be something else to dress up, I generally care more about how my characters look than whatever they are handwaving this time. I clapped with glee when I managed to make my Sylvari look like a flower. And more so when I made a good flamethrowing outfit for my charr. What am I supposed to do with story? It's awful so I can't even enjoy it like a movie, and too many plot holes to even make sense of it, like there could suddenly be another dragon in Cantha besides the Elder Dragon to do the usual Dues-Ex Machina stuff and I wouldn't even bat an eye at this point.

[Obtena.7952]

44 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

I'd say it is the last reason. The more important reason would be something else to dress up, 

Except we don't lack races to dress up, so that reasoning to add a new race isn't as important as you think. The actual compelling reason MUST the story, because that's more important to more people than having a 6th model to apply existing skins to. If it wasn't for the stories, the race-based zones and the other things that have meaningful race differences for players, it would have actually been a stupid idea for Anet to have different races in this game because of all the extra work required to create skins. 

Again, if the compelling reason is dress up, you aren't actually filling a need of any player with a new race. You also haven't considering the value of a feature vs. it's implementation ... you don't actually GET dress up on a new race without Anet doing a complete review of every skin out there. The low value of that work is not questionable.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Chip.9267]

Please, please stop with the amount of work thing needed to make something, If ANET consider that is worth it they will do it. We, the consumers, will pay for what we like, or we wont, if we dont like it. Dont think that they can make something else beter with that time, maybe they will just sleep 😁End of story. I am sure fishing was not an easy implementation either and there are lots of gamers who dont care about it. So? But still for some will be beautiful and a thing they wished from the beginning. And one more thing ANET can bend the story as they see fit, and who knows maybe we will like it. They wanted to make Tengu playable from the release of GW2, so who knows if they didnt worked on them from that time? There are many arguments pro and con. But we will see when the expansion drop or whatever if we will ever have a new race.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Chip.9267

[Obtena.7952]

54 minutes ago, Chip.9267 said:

Please, please stop with the amount of work thing needed to make something, If ANET consider that is worth it they will do it. We, the consumers, will pay for what we like, or we wont, if we dont like it. 

Sure, no one is saying they wouldn't do that ... except the problem here is that people can ALREADY see how low value a new race is to players and to Anet. The gameplay value here is ... a new storyline. OK, except that's something we can ALREADY get from the established classes in another LS or expansion.

 

On the other hand, the additional work required is revamping years of skin models for a new race. So what do you think makes more sense?

 

1. Anet commits resources to a new storyline with the existing assets in the game ... like they always have like players expect and want?

2. Anet does the same thing specific to a single race, while burdening themselves to the extra work of skin re-modelling. 

 

I think it's obvious. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Faridah.8431]

52 minutes ago, Chip.9267 said:

Please, please stop with the amount of work thing needed to make something, If ANET consider that is worth it they will do it. 

Absolutely true, and never claimed otherwise.

 

My points really just covered previous expansions scope as a baseline to judge this one, and doing an entire new race from scratch the right way is realistically a huge undertaking, disregarding the guy that says just put it in story be damned.

 

But its not just that, its animations, reworking probably all armor skins in the game, etc. This would be monumental for what we know of previous expansion scopes which is why I always felt like it was an unrealistic expectation.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Faridah.8431

[alcopaul.2156]

unlike what most perceive about real life (i.e. we're in a simulation, we have no purpose, we did not sign up for this, etc), Guild Wars 2 world has a narrative that is well documented in the games history books and its races. unlike the current society where most mainly view the endgame as wife, kids, house, cars, travels, the endgame of Guild Wars 2, if it goes in a narrative, is for all the races to feel that they share a common victory by doing different aspects of warfare towards a common enemy.

 

the world had USSR.. now China.. and what's next?

 

the narratives are important coz they just make you think that there were persons before you that played through that and if you're a part of their circle, would even have a hand on completing what must be completed..

 

and it seems like the narrators of the lore already knew the path to the future events by by placing Dominion of the Winds in the Sylvari low level area.. and that map is even released during the Vanilla GW2 release..

 

2012-2021.. yo, 9 years in the making..

Edited August 12, 2021 by alcopaul.2156

[Linken.6345]

55 minutes ago, alcopaul.2156 said:

unlike what most perceive about real life (i.e. we're in a simulation, we have no purpose, we did not sign up for this, etc), Guild Wars 2 world has a narrative that is well documented in the games history books and its races. unlike the current society where most mainly view the endgame as wife, kids, house, cars, travels, the endgame of Guild Wars 2, if it goes in a narrative, is for all the races to feel that they share a common victory by doing different aspects of warfare towards a common enemy.

 

the world had USSR.. now China.. and what's next?

 

the narratives are important coz they just make you think that there were persons before you that played through that and if you're a part of their circle, would even have a hand on completing what must be completed..

 

and it seems like the narrators of the lore already knew the path to the future events by by placing Dominion of the Winds in the Sylvari low level area.. and that map is even released during the Vanilla GW2 release..

 

2012-2021.. yo, 9 years in the making..

 

Mind elaborating on this jibberish?

[alcopaul.2156]

40 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

Mind elaborating on this jibberish?

WYSIWYG

[Esorono.1039]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except we don't lack races to dress up, so that reasoning to add a new race isn't as important as you think. The actual compelling reason MUST the story, because that's more important to more people than having a 6th model to apply existing skins to. If it wasn't for the stories, the race-based zones and the other things that have meaningful race differences for players, it would have actually been a stupid idea for Anet to have different races in this game because of all the extra work required to create skins. 

Again, if the compelling reason is dress up, you aren't actually filling a need of any player with a new race. You also haven't considering the value of a feature vs. it's implementation ... you don't actually GET dress up on a new race without Anet doing a complete review of every skin out there. The low value of that work is not questionable.

Most of their work is done for them, if you even talked to them, most of their story is already set up, it just requires a trigger. They literally wrote themselves into this situation, which at this point is 'We are on the fence about joining the other races, if we are threatened, we will join'. They also share the same frames and polygons as a charr for most of their bodies, so what works on a charr will work on a tengu, because you know, they were designed to be playable. It would actually take more time to sit in chairs, or fishing, or mounts, all things they said would be too much effort for the result. Too bad we don't have any of those featu- Oh...wait. But the story is just just flavor, just like the zones we enter. I highly doubt the story was the main focus of anything in GW2. Have you played any of the expansions? The story has absolutely nothing on the rest of the game, it's just an excuse to get from point A to B. What we lack are races to dress up without making a mess. Besides, do you think anyone would actually buy any of the stories? You think if the stories gave no rewards or it was turned into a book people would actually buy it? I can't take you seriously, it took me like an hour just to write this because I kept laughing at the thought that people would actually care for the story. XD Here, let me make a ''''''story'''''' that would fit. 

 

The spirit of Primordus comes back to life for reasons that no one knows, and starts attacking Tyria again. Why? Handwaved. Then a darkness crystal dragon appears out from space and declares themself a good space elder dragon and saves the PC despite not knowing them or having any reason to. After a bunch of fighting Taimi shows up with exactly the item we needed she got from the tengu as they have been around since the last dragon attack. While Canach does some broody things in the background, maybe makes some snarky comments with Rytlock while they walk around the Dominion of Winds talking with the Tengu about the threat of the Elder Dragons. And then Spirit Primordus causes all sort of chaos to raise 'tension' and causes people to go to old Tengu ruins. And just as it looks like the story is about to get serious, Taimi uses the Fix-Plot-O-Nator with some kind of tengu McGuffin, and fuses the darkness dragon with Aurene to fight the spirit Primordus, and also sell a merchandisable bauble of the fusion like a stuff toy or a statue. After handwaving basically everything that would involve, and the implications, as well as the destruction, there will be like a 5 minute cut scene of characters talking about all the questions the community had, and with people explaining with hastily crafted answers that raise more questions than answers and drawing attention to more plot holes. Then Aurene and the space dragon unfuse (somehow). And the shadow space dragon absorbs pretty much all the magic like a dues ex-machina vacuum cleaner and is all like 'oh no'. Then becomes evil and starts attacking. Which leads to the Tengu realizing the threat is not over yet and joining the races. Then that season ends.

 

Of course there would need to be like a dozen plot threads that go nowhere, like mentioning about a Quaggan temple with a McGuffin but do absolutely nothing with it. But you get the point. Any more silly excuses?

[Chip.9267]

8 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

Absolutely true, and never claimed otherwise.

 

My points really just covered previous expansions scope as a baseline to judge this one, and doing an entire new race from scratch the right way is realistically a huge undertaking, disregarding the guy that says just put it in story be damned.

 

But its not just that, its animations, reworking probably all armor skins in the game, etc. This would be monumental for what we know of previous expansion scopes which is why I always felt like it was an unrealistic expectation.

I agree that its allot of work but we already know that Tengu was a thing in early development, they have an entire map zone from the begining of gw2 (dominion of winds) and we dont realy know if ANET never worked on them from the start. Maybe they are just waiting for the right time to release them.

[dragonkain.3984]

When we can get a new race? Pretty much never, that's why I stopped playing this game long ago. It never provides us with what we actually want, only what they think we should get.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

7 minutes ago, dragonkain.3984 said:

When we can get a new race? Pretty much never, that's why I stopped playing this game long ago. It never provides us with what we actually want, only what they think we should get.

Speak for yourself and not the rest of us, thank you very much.

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Most of their work is done for them, if you even talked to them, most of their story is already set up, it just requires a trigger.

No, you don't know what work is or is not done. Just 'requiring a trigger' to initiate a story isn't a justification for adding Tengu as a race. Your knowledge (however little or vast) of the work and its state of completion isn't even relevant to the discussion to begin with. The question of adding a new race is about the value it has to players and Anet, not how much work has been done to do it. 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

46 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, you don't know what work is or is not done. Just 'requiring a trigger' to initiate a story isn't a justification for adding Tengu as a race. Your knowledge (however little or vast) of the work and its state of completion isn't even relevant to the discussion to begin with. The question of adding a new race is about the value it has to players and Anet, not how much work has been done to do it. 

 

 

You are absolutely hilarious! XD Okay, you expect me to believe that designing the quests for the mounts, creating MANY new models for the game, creating multiple animations for each one, creating new skills for each one, balancing the skills for each one, creating a freaking FLYING mechanic AND balancing it, looking through the map for places to block mounts, creating new terrain and multiple interactions with said terrain for mounts, balancing said terrain for the mounts, noise editing, and likely many more I can't think off the top of my head. Do you really think is easier than working with an existing model that uses the charr mesh with most of the noise editing already done, many animations to work with, many variations to work with, part of their map already done, and have already expressed interest in joining the five races even recently all the way back to beta?

Sure.

Yeah.

I totally buy that.

[MarkoGold.7126]

Well i already bought the eod expansion on my main account so i cant say i woudnt buy if tengus are added anymore however please do not add them i dont want to see chickens running around the game.

[Faridah.8431]

14 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

You are absolutely hilarious! XD Okay, you expect me to believe that designing the quests for the mounts, creating MANY new models for the game, creating multiple animations for each one, creating new skills for each one, balancing the skills for each one, creating a freaking FLYING mechanic AND balancing it, looking through the map for places to block mounts, creating new terrain and multiple interactions with said terrain for mounts, balancing said terrain for the mounts, noise editing, and likely many more I can't think off the top of my head. Do you really think is easier than working with an existing model that uses the charr mesh with most of the noise editing already done, many animations to work with, many variations to work with, part of their map already done, and have already expressed interest in joining the five races even recently all the way back to beta?

Sure.

Yeah.

I totally buy that.

I would remind you that at the time HoT launched, gliding was not available outside the HoT maps. I don't recall if that was similar with the PoF mounts at launch or not, but yeah obviously that stuff requires a lot of work which is why stuff like gliding didn't work everywhere at the time of expansion launch for HoT.

 

Anyway, I do agree that if adding a playable Tengu race was something they wanted to do, they could absolutely do it and build off some things like charr, but let's be real, they are not charr, so don't just paint all beastial races as the same. I know you don't care, but put your game design glasses on for a second and step into ANET's shoes and realize with a new race comes the need to make it fit into the narrative and roles created for the player character, and yes I'll keep hammering that point home.

[killforbeers.7534]

On 8/10/2021 at 10:53 PM, Vilin.8056 said:

Or create his own MV:

 

I love this !   I would play it in the background if we ever get to play Tengu race !

[alcopaul.2156]

Esorono got the flow here. Vanilla Release of GW2 already got the Dominion of the Winds wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before gliding and flying mounts...

 

it will even justify the equality of the 6 races, if tengus are added, coz they still all start at the same map...

Edited August 13, 2021 by alcopaul.2156

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Esorono.1039 said:

You are absolutely hilarious! XD Okay, you expect me to believe that designing the quests for the mounts, creating MANY new models for the game, creating multiple animations for each one, creating new skills for each one, balancing the skills for each one, creating a freaking FLYING mechanic AND balancing it, looking through the map for places to block mounts, creating new terrain and multiple interactions with said terrain for mounts, balancing said terrain for the mounts, noise editing, and likely many more I can't think off the top of my head. Do you really think is easier than working with an existing model that uses the charr mesh with most of the noise editing already done, many animations to work with, many variations to work with, part of their map already done, and have already expressed interest in joining the five races even recently all the way back to beta?

Sure.

Yeah.

I totally buy that.

I'm not going to assume anything about what is harder or easier as work for Anet and frankly, whatever anyone wants to assume is irrelevant to the discussion in the first place. Again, you don't know what work is done or required and it's not relevant to the discussion. The justification for adding a new race is about the value it has to players and Anet. Even if 99% of the work is done ... the value of releasing content like a new race is STILL the thing that will need to be assessed in order for it to happen. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

1 hour ago, Faridah.8431 said:

I would remind you that at the time HoT launched, gliding was not available outside the HoT maps. I don't recall if that was similar with the PoF mounts at launch or not, but yeah obviously that stuff requires a lot of work which is why stuff like gliding didn't work everywhere at the time of expansion launch for HoT.

 

Anyway, I do agree that if adding a playable Tengu race was something they wanted to do, they could absolutely do it and build off some things like charr, but let's be real, they are not charr, so don't just paint all beastial races as the same. I know you don't care, but put your game design glasses on for a second and step into ANET's shoes and realize with a new race comes the need to make it fit into the narrative and roles created for the player character, and yes I'll keep hammering that point home.

I suppose I can use this argument to help further strengthen this, as it is clear now some people don't know what a mesh is. You know how Humans, Norns, and Sylvari all have very similar looking armor, and all of them have very similar looking animations? Ever wonder why? This is because those three races share the same mesh, Tengu and Charr also share the same mesh. Meaning, not only does most of the armor fit, but they can share many animations. There would likely be some flair differences here and there like all the other races. But anyways, thanks for helping me make this argument easier. Should I remind you that making all the new mount skins, many which are a full model change would take more effort?