Grenade Barrage

[displayname.8315]

6 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

It's so fast and there is so much visual noise in the scene, there is no way anyone would see them in the actual encounter.  They appear and detonate within exactly 6 frames, or 0.2 seconds.  Unfortunately I do not have god-level reaction time and ping.

There wasn't that much noise, you had what looks like 2 thieves, a scourge and a DH.

 

The other thief landed right beside you and appears to have dodged, probably just muscle memory, and he went on fighting. You got a steal, a backstab and pressed 1 it was probably time for a dodge that's a lot of casting time for your build.

 

The scourge should have probably stayed up top for a couple seconds and drop cleansing barrier shades all over you since you did the pushing and not the Dragonhunter as he should have.  Then the scourge should be pressing the f3 aoe barrier on his shades.  Then maybe charge in as he's casting his heal skill for another big aoe barrier. 

 

If you guys are a comp group you have too much glass melee and no support from the scourge or DH.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

32 minutes ago, displayname.8315 said:

There wasn't that much noise.

 

I know it can be worse, but are you really saying this isn't a "light show"?  How many overlapping AOEs are in this frame alone?

 

https://imgur.com/a/IVMyqyD

 

Quote

The other thief landed right beside you and appears to have dodged, probably just muscle memory, and he went on fighting.

 

Looks like an Engi to me.  He dodged after the nade burst so it was a wasted reactive dodge.

 

Quote

You got a steal, a backstab and pressed 1 it was probably time for a dodge that's a lot of casting time for your build.

 

The scourge should have probably stayed up top for a couple seconds and drop cleansing barrier shades all over you since you did the pushing and not the Dragonhunter as he should have.  Then the scourge should be pressing the f3 aoe barrier on his shades.  Then maybe charge in as he's casting his heal skill for another big aoe barrier. 

 

If you guys are a comp group you have too much glass melee and no support from the scourge or DH.

 

Not a comp group at all.  Pretty sure all friendlies were random solo players like me just trying to take a camp.  So no group coordination/support to really expect here.

 

EDIT: In fact, I'd be willing to bet most of them were casuals just doing their camp daily.  We were already fighting the NPCs for a bit when the enemies showed up.  The first scrapper, the one I focused, is also part of a tryhard/gank guild I believe.  What happened here is a random group of casuals (my team) were in the middle of taking a camp for the daily and got jumped by gankers/tryhards "defending" their camp, but really just doing what they do and farming cheap kills.  The end.

 

I know it's easy and fun to "Monday morning quarterback" this, but none of it changes the utter brokenness of the AOE nade burst.. from stealth.. on preoccupied targets.. while having plenty of survivability.  Let's not lose sight of that.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Twilight Tempest.7584

[displayname.8315]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

part of a tryhard/gank guild ... jumped by gankers/tryhards "defending" their camp

LOL for sure.  Very funny and accurate description.

 

2 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

I know it's easy and fun to "Monday morning quarterback" this, but none of it changes the utter brokenness of the AOE nade burst..from stealth..

Could pretty much tell they were random pugs or someones bots.. the engi on your side was real tho he was playing and can take a single stealth burst without dying.. what could be considered the bare minimum requirement for WvW.

 

I've messed with 0 toughness builds, put on all the vitality you want your still gunna get deleted, but you may have pulled off some sweet gameplay if you had started chaining some dodges and strikes together, instead of the camera pan and pressing 1. 

 

If you didn't know you can do your camera panning while dodging and if you keep it where you want it you will move in that way if pressing W or S manually.  Unless your doing that EU camera flip keybind stuff.. EWW

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

What happened here is a random group of casuals (my team) were in the middle of taking a camp for the daily and got jumped by gankers/tryhards "defending" their camp, but really just doing what they do and farming cheap kills.  The end.

Yes I also end up in this situation all the time. Here I am sieging enemy T3 garri with a small group of casuals just looking for fun and the enemy have the audacity to come. With more people than us! kittening kitten gankers trying to "defend".

Edited September 4, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[apharma.3741]

On 8/18/2021 at 3:56 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

It was specifically fixed for PvP a while ago, so survey generally says "No." 

 

It's the same old ANet balance antics and inconsistency where something overtly busted in WvW is left around for long periods of time for unknown reasons after being formally targeted as a relative-strength problem in sPvP. 

This is why I would much rather ANet bring PvP balance to WvW almost entirely. I know it will cause problems but it will also solve a lot of these issues while keeping competitive balance unified for player experience.

 

The only reason I say almost entriely is stability would need to be maintained in certain amounts for WvW that may be higher than PvP.

[Strider Pj.2193]

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

This is why I would much rather ANet bring PvP balance to WvW almost entirely. I know it will cause problems but it will also solve a lot of these issues while keeping competitive balance unified for player experience.

 

The only reason I say almost entriely is stability would need to be maintained in certain amounts for WvW that may be higher than PvP.

Then refund the cost of my legendary armor and take it back.  Otherwise I have no use for it.

[apharma.3741]

7 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Then refund the cost of my legendary armor and take it back.  Otherwise I have no use for it.

Ah yes, because you can only use legendary armour in WvW.

 

Stats are half the problem, the other half is the skills, keeping skill balance the same between modes is what I'm talking about which is the context of the discussion.

[displayname.8315]

2 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Ah yes, because you can only use legendary armour in WvW.

 

Stats are half the problem, the other half is the skills, keeping skill balance the same between modes is what I'm talking about which is the context of the discussion.

Stats are only a problem because they take effort.  Or maybe too much effort anyways.

 

WvW has its own skill balancing now separate from PvE and PvP and for good reason.  Maybe not often enough for some but very playable.. with effort.

[Strider Pj.2193]

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Ah yes, because you can only use legendary armour in WvW.

 

Stats are half the problem, the other half is the skills, keeping skill balance the same between modes is what I'm talking about which is the context of the discussion.

I have no other use for it.  
 

It was made specifically for WvW IN WvW.  So, yeah.  They want to do this, I should get a refund.  Of course they can take it back as it would no longer have a use for me.

 

And quite frankly, other than Raids, Legendary armor really doesn’t have a use.  
 

Fractals?  Heh, no.  

open world PvE?  Cmon now..

 

They take out WvW armor That was earned in WvW..  I am not sure there could me more of a proverbial slap in the face from the game.  
 

And don’t say skins..  lol.

[HARDOFREADING.7298]

 Pretty clear at this point they are either unwilling or unable to balance the mess (imo) that is the current wvw meta. Just another example of (again imo) the total destruction of thieves as a viable class except for very situational occasions.

 I think the most disturbing thing to me was just how thoroughly Malice was gutted after being marketed to customers as one thing and ultimately nerfed to smithereens while other classes have had virtually no adjustments in the name of "balance".

  Unfortunately we have people with 8 thousand posts that have opinions about everything and do a fine job of jamming the forum with half truths, downright false information, and skewed viewpoints but rather than risk the barrage of clown (imo) seltzer fire that will surely follow if I point out obvious serious balance concerns I will limit it to just this one for now based upon a post I saw the other day.

  The aforementioned post referenced Scorpion Wire and another "Pull" specifically but Ill focus on SW for this post. Scorpion Wire is joke level bad. Virtually no one uses it and the reason why is that it's as likely to pull the target to you as it is to do nothing or more comically yet, pull you to the target. Additionally, Scorpion Wire requires an extremely valuable, at this point, Utility Slot in order to be equipped.  Now compare that to Spear of Justices sequence finisher Hunter's Verdict. Hunter's Verdict is a skill from the attack bar and requires no wasted utility slot to equip. Hunter's verdict will trigger whether or not the previous 4 attacks land, it can pierce and pull multiple people from distances well past its stated range.  It reveals for 6 seconds, applies multiple stacks of burning, and can be further traited to add a number of other conditions or boons.  On top of all that...Hunter's Virtue is unblockable and unevadable. I've been pulled thru small hills with no line of sight, thru gates and entrances, and last but not least out of water on to land.

  I met a new player in WvW the other day trying to play Dead Eye and he was continually getting instantly killed by a ranger and a Guardian and I tried to help him but after the 4th time he simply stated "They're just too strong. This is too demoralizing." And then he left.

 I've said it before and I'll say it again "Fundamental Game Design 101" People that do nothing but die in a game DO NOT PLAY THAT GAME LONG.

   This is so comically unbalanced that it defies description. 

       Commence Seltzer Fire

[Xenesis.6389]

59 minutes ago, HARDOFREADING.7298 said:

 Pretty clear at this point they are either unwilling or unable to balance the mess (imo) that is the current wvw meta. Just another example of (again imo) the total destruction of thieves as a viable class except for very situational occasions.

 I think the most disturbing thing to me was just how thoroughly Malice was gutted after being marketed to customers as one thing and ultimately nerfed to smithereens while other classes have had virtually no adjustments in the name of "balance".

  Unfortunately we have people with 8 thousand posts that have opinions about everything and do a fine job of jamming the forum with half truths, downright false information, and skewed viewpoints but rather than risk the barrage of clown (imo) seltzer fire that will surely follow if I point out obvious serious balance concerns I will limit it to just this one for now based upon a post I saw the other day.

  The aforementioned post referenced Scorpion Wire and another "Pull" specifically but Ill focus on SW for this post. Scorpion Wire is joke level bad. Virtually no one uses it and the reason why is that it's as likely to pull the target to you as it is to do nothing or more comically yet, pull you to the target. Additionally, Scorpion Wire requires an extremely valuable, at this point, Utility Slot in order to be equipped.  Now compare that to Spear of Justices sequence finisher Hunter's Verdict. Hunter's Verdict is a skill from the attack bar and requires no wasted utility slot to equip. Hunter's verdict will trigger whether or not the previous 4 attacks land, it can pierce and pull multiple people from distances well past its stated range.  It reveals for 6 seconds, applies multiple stacks of burning, and can be further traited to add a number of other conditions or boons.  On top of all that...Hunter's Virtue is unblockable and unevadable. I've been pulled thru small hills with no line of sight, thru gates and entrances, and last but not least out of water on to land.

  I met a new player in WvW the other day trying to play Dead Eye and he was continually getting instantly killed by a ranger and a Guardian and I tried to help him but after the 4th time he simply stated "They're just too strong. This is too demoralizing." And then he left.

 I've said it before and I'll say it again "Fundamental Game Design 101" People that do nothing but die in a game DO NOT PLAY THAT GAME LONG.

   This is so comically unbalanced that it defies description. 

       Commence Seltzer Fire

 

/firsttimememe

Former Mirage just shrugs.

[apharma.3741]

12 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

Stats are only a problem because they take effort.  Or maybe too much effort anyways.

 

WvW has its own skill balancing now separate from PvE and PvP and for good reason.  Maybe not often enough for some but very playable.. with effort.

And there is the problem, it's been demonstrated over 2-3 years that ANet simply cannot devote the resources to maintaining 3 different balance states while also changing them enough on a frequent enough basis to keep players engaged.

 

So you either keep doing a a job that is unsatisfactory to many people in many ways while also having massive differences in classes power because of this or you can unify competitive balance (as in skills and traits) between at least 2 modes. Most of the time if something is busted in PvP it's either busted in WvW or changing it will have very little real world impact for most players and the same works the other way.

 

There are some small parts where a difference might need to be maintained, the obvious example is stability with duration and stacks being a little higher in WvW but by and large skill/trait changes can be the same.

 

11 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

I have no other use for it.  
 

It was made specifically for WvW IN WvW.  So, yeah.  They want to do this, I should get a refund.  Of course they can take it back as it would no longer have a use for me.

 

And quite frankly, other than Raids, Legendary armor really doesn’t have a use.  
 

Fractals?  Heh, no.  

open world PvE?  Cmon now..

 

They take out WvW armor That was earned in WvW..  I am not sure there could me more of a proverbial slap in the face from the game.  
 

And don’t say skins..  lol.

I was talking about skills and traits but yeah keep on with this please, just because you choose to only play one mode doesn't detract that legendary armour is usable and useful outside of that game mode. Example: PvP legendary armour serves 0 purpose in PvP. Thanks for playing.

 

Oh and FYI to yourself and others, everything in game is subject to change and that doesn't mean you get a refund unless it is literally deleted out of the game entirely like PvP runes that had to be unlocked in PvP with gold and only applied to PvP.

Edited September 6, 2021 by apharma.3741

[zinkz.7045]

16 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Stats are half the problem, the other half is the skills, keeping skill balance the same between modes is what I'm talking about which is the context of the discussion.

 

It makes zero sense to have the same skill balance between sPvP and WvW they are very different game modes, with very different balance requirements.

 

To take an example of the differing balance requirements, let's take engy as that is the subject of this thread and go back to vanilla when skill balance was the same between game modes. For a good chunk of that Engy was getting nerfed every balance patch, because in sPvP it was a very strong sidenoder (the Teldo build for example). So those nerfs were applying to anyone who played engy in WvW. For which engy was considered one of the two most useless classes for zergs or guilds (large scale) and was middle-of-the-road as a roamer, so basically it was a lot weaker in WvW than in PvP, yet getting nerfs, whilst far stronger classes in WvW got buffs and/or less nerfs.

 

Which shouldn't be a surprise, because 5v5 capture point, on small maps, with lots of LOS, with an actual functioning game mode has very different balance requirements from 60 vs 60 open field blobs, roaming about an open field map solo, etc, in a game mode where your actions are largely irrelevant to the end result to the point no one sane really cares.

Edited September 6, 2021 by zinkz.7045

[Strider Pj.2193]

24 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I was talking about skills and traits but yeah keep on with this please, just because you choose to only play one mode doesn't detract that legendary armour is usable and useful outside of that game mode. Example: PvP legendary armour serves 0 purpose in PvP. Thanks for playing.

 

Oh and FYI to yourself and others, everything in game is subject to change and that doesn't mean you get a refund unless it is literally deleted out of the game entirely like PvP runes that had to be unlocked in PvP with gold and only applied to PvP.

Skills and traits are balanced in each mode because of the level of base stats.
 

 Those entering PvP knew their legendary armor wouldn't benefit them in their mode when crafting it.  By far not the same issue.

 

And of course everything is subject to change.  Just ask the Apple users.

 

But taking Legendary armor out of WvW would be a significant slap in the face.  

[apharma.3741]

6 hours ago, zinkz.7045 said:

 

It makes zero sense to have the same skill balance between sPvP and WvW they are very different game modes, with very different balance requirements.

 

To take an example of the differing balance requirements, let's take engy as that is the subject of this thread and go back to vanilla when skill balance was the same between game modes. For a good chunk of that Engy was getting nerfed every balance patch, because in sPvP it was a very strong sidenoder (the Teldo build for example). So those nerfs were applying to anyone who played engy in WvW. For which engy was considered one of the two most useless classes for zergs or guilds (large scale) and was middle-of-the-road as a roamer, so basically it was a lot weaker in WvW than in PvP, yet getting nerfs, whilst far stronger classes in WvW got buffs and/or less nerfs.

 

Which shouldn't be a surprise, because 5v5 capture point, on small maps, with lots of LOS, with an actual functioning game mode has very different balance requirements from 60 vs 60 open field blobs, roaming about an open field map solo, etc, in a game mode where your actions are largely irrelevant to the end result to the point no one sane really cares.

As I say it's not without problems so let's not do what I suggest then. We keep balance separate between all game modes but we now also keep the snails pace of drip fed balance tweaks. We don't see a significant change till EoD which will nuke WvW in different ways, we will be optomistic and say another HoT doesn't happen and we also don't end up with an utterly unfun almost unplayable mess.

 

It could take 2 years before we see any significant change to whatever the meta ends up being, how long did we have the current meta? The biggest switch ups were to WoD and purity of purpose/antitoxin runes, the vast majority of stuff was subtle changes but arguably didn't shake up what classes were best for zergs or roles. This is without touching the decayed rotting corpse of roaming.

 

That is of course without pointing at guardian and necro, these 2 classes should have been nuked from orbit years ago if we wanted to keep the game somewhat interesting but we still have it, 9 years (?) after launch they're the backbone of WvW and nothing, absolutely nothing competes or has ever competed against them in their roles. I know someone else is chomping at the bit for AoE damage, yeah necro isn't just about the damage.

 

How do I know this? Look at ANet's history, this company has demonstrated repeatedly that it cannot push out frequent balance patches and thinks of WvW as an after thought at best. I am under no illusions that there will be times when a class gets shafted (I do play mesmer after all) in most modes but man is WvW utterly boring when it's the same for months to years.

 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Well this is still happening, and it's degenerate as ever.

When is being able to nuke players with the press of a button, with zero setup, with zero tell, from 10 seconds of stealth healthy?

And INB4 "that build is burst or die," notice it has plenty of steam left to duel and beat the Mirage.

If that's not enough, this player later thwarted two attempts at taking a tower in small group skirmishes of about 3v4 by simply spamming grenades from stealth on slightly injured players engaged in fights.

Grenade Scrapper/Holo with Explosive Entrance is just stupidly effective for the braindead level of effort.  Add stomp gyros to the mix and the build practically plays itself.

Seriously, this is the epitome of busted and it's long overdue for the nerf bat.  The damage level is an outlier within the meta.  It was already nerfed in PvP, and should be in WvW as well.

Link to my clip from August at the top of this thread: 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

This gets to my main problem with the Feb2020 balance patch and lack of follow up...

Some skills got utterly gutted, and some got forgotten. Keep in mind that this skill in particular has been gutted in PvP because it's unnerfed damage was getting abused there, but CMC didn' think to also include the changes in the WvW balance.

For reference:

Grenade Barrage is 0.5 scaling per grenade for 6 grenades for a total scaling of 3.0
This is enough to instagib almost everything that isn't full Minstrel. Also keep in mind that those damage packets are all at once, from range, and can be prebuffed up to 25 might, with quickness, with superspeed swiftness and stability fueling damage modifiers all covered by a long duration stealth.

Rapid Fire is 2.75 scaling and is spread out over a channel, is ranged, and can come from stealth and can be pumped by large modifiers

Volley is 2.5 scaling, is spread out over a channel, and you will always see it coming, it can be pumped by traitline modifiers, but not easily.

True Shot is a 1.95 scaling, is ranged, is a single attack, and also can be prebuffed with might and fired out of stealth with large modifiers to back it up.

Really, in WvW Grenade Barrage should have the PvP scaling as well given how much it can be prebuffed and pushed by damage modifiers. The issue isn't even that a scapper is doing it, the skill is still inflated DPS wise for the current balance.
 

[Infusion.7149]

You could have just wrote "use PVP scaling in WVW". That would mean it has 0.3 coefficient per grenade x6 = 1.8 total coefficient.

No need for a wall of text or video , since nobody uses grenades in large scale WVW due to its projectile nature and inability to track moving or superspeed targets.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Skada.1362]

14 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Well this is still happening, and it's degenerate as ever.

When is being able to nuke players with the press of a button, with zero setup, with zero tell, from 10 seconds of stealth healthy?

And INB4 "that build is burst or die," notice it has plenty of steam left to duel and beat the Mirage.

If that's not enough, this player later thwarted two attempts at taking a tower in small group skirmishes of about 3v4 by simply spamming grenades from stealth on slightly injured players engaged in fights.

Grenade Scrapper/Holo with Explosive Entrance is just stupidly effective for the braindead level of effort.  Add stomp gyros to the mix and the build practically plays itself.

Seriously, this is the epitome of busted and it's long overdue for the nerf bat.  The damage level is an outlier within the meta.  It was already nerfed in PvP, and should be in WvW as well.

Link to my clip from August at the top of this thread: 

Omegalol.. 0 setup he says.. just shows how he does not understand whats happening. There is plenty of setup to do that type of damage. You need to pop all of your elixirs, stealth gyro, run up close to target and land the nades, its like 5 cooldowns gone. Not that much different to power shatter mesmers.

Edit: funny how he uses words as degenerate, busted and braindead.. all while playing shadow arts d/p daredevil OMEGALOL!

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Skada.1362

[Xenesis.6389]

9 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

CMC didn' think to also include the changes in the WvW balance.

 

Give the man a break, he's busy hydrating and thinking up more mesmer nerfs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

Give the man a break, he's busy hydrating and thinking up more mesmer nerfs.

😄 True, though I think he was thinking more about how to keep Bladesworn from ever functioning in WvW/PvP.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

34 minutes ago, Skada.1362 said:

Omegalol.. 0 setup he says.. just shows how he does not understand whats happening. There is plenty of setup to do that type of damage. You need to pop all of your elixirs, stealth gyro, run up close to target and land the nades, its like 5 cooldowns gone. Not that much different to power shatter mesmers.

Edit: funny how he uses words as degenerate, busted and braindead.. all while playing shadow arts d/p daredevil OMEGALOL!

"Whataboutism" never won any argument, and in this case, it isn't even particularly on point.  DP DrD may be basic, but it's not easy to play effectively--definitely not as easy as "stealth, push 3 buttons, creep up (go ahead, you have 10 seconds, so take your sweet time), and hit the nuke button"--which is an AOE so can actually nuke multiple targets.  Not to mention all of that is done while in stealth, so the only tell is being nuked from thin air.

So if you want to call pressing 4 buttons or so within the comfort of 10 seconds stealth that is 100% guaranteed to instagib most targets, "skill", then you're not going to find much agreement from me, or anyone serious for that matter.

Newsflash: DrD hasn't been able to reliably instagib anything forever now, and if it does, it certainly isn't going to hang around and duel a second player down.  Mesmer burst also has more tell before the bomb drops.  Stop trying to defend the indefensible.  You lose all credit.

[Shroud.2307]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

"Whataboutism" never won any argument, and in this case, it isn't even particularly on point.  DP DrD may be basic, but it's not easy to play effectively--definitely not as easy as "stealth, push 3 buttons, creep up (go ahead, you have 10 seconds, so take your sweet time), and hit the nuke button"--which is an AOE so can actually nuke multiple targets.  Not to mention all of that is done while in stealth, so the only tell is being nuked from thin air.

So if you want to call pressing 4 buttons or so within the comfort of 10 seconds stealth that is 100% guaranteed to instagib most targets, "skill", then you're not going to find much agreement from me, or anyone serious for that matter.

Newsflash: DrD hasn't been able to reliably instagib anything forever now, and if it does, it certainly isn't going to hang around and duel a second player down.  Mesmer burst also has more tell before the bomb drops.  Stop trying to defend the indefensible.  You lose all credit.

I'm sorry but yes, you can still spike very hard with Daredevil. I see people say this so often and yet every time I play Thief I'm hitting 10 - 15k nearly every fight. Mind you that's also because I don't use Shadow Arts or full Marauder but instead use a mix of Berserker and Valkyrie, and with Deadly Arts + Trickery or Crit Strikes + Trickery. And if using core, the damage is consistently higher but of course I lose some survivability.

I won't get in to a discussion about the difficulty of playing Thief, I've stated my thoughts on the matter many times, so if you're interested you can see a recent comment about it here. tldr; I agree that

Quote

DP DrD may be basic, but it's not easy to play effectively

but Thief is still capable of huge spikes.

Because this seems to be something that's really getting on your nerves, I just want to suggest that you acknowledge this issue is not about the skill (Grenade Barrage) but rather a combination of things that exacerbate its potential. 
Again going back to what I'd said earlier in this thread, it's like Soulbeast with Rapid Fire, "Sic 'Em!" and OWP. Rapid Fire itself is a strong skill, but not problematic. It's only when it's paired with a number of other things that it becomes a busted.

While I understand that you probably don't want to write a novel explaining everything that contributes to making Grenade Barrage busted, I just wanted to point out that it isn't fair to request nerfs to something without understanding the whole picture.
Eg. It is possible to spike up to 20k Backstabs - "nerf Backstab!" But the problem isn't the skill, it's everything that contributes to it. 

EDIT:
As someone with experience, I would say the best way to nerf it would be to halve the Barrier gain from all Grenade sources, reduce the coefficient of Explosive Entrance, and add a visual effect that will appear regardless of Stealth (meaning even if you cast it from Stealth, an effect will still be visible to others immediately as it is cast).
This would significantly reduce Scrapper sustain with Grenade Kit, weakens an unnecessarily strong passive (Explosive Entrance), and adds more time for counterplay when it's used from Stealth.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

I respect and appreciate your thoughts as a veteran, and I know you've acknowledged the issue in this thread.  What I didn't want to happen, and what the person I responded to did, is derail this into a discussion about Thief.  It really doesn't matter what profession I was on in this clip.  I didn't get to do anything.  Would what happened have been any more or less degenerate if I was on whatever profession the community thinks is the most respectable and wholesome?  This is actually classic victim-blaming.  ("You play D/P SA Daredevil so you have no right to complain!"  Or to take another extreme, "Your skirt was too short so you deserved it!")

Responding to some of what you said:

28 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I'm sorry but yes, you can still spike very hard with Daredevil. I see people say this so often and yet every time I play Thief I'm hitting 10 - 15k nearly every fight. Mind you that's also because I don't use Shadow Arts or full Marauder but instead use a mix of Berserker and Valkyrie, and with Deadly Arts + Trickery or Crit Strikes + Trickery. And if using core, the damage is consistently higher but of course I lose some survivability.

10-15K still isn't going to 100-0 most people who aren't full glass or under-geared (though I'm open to being shown otherwise).  You might be able to meme around on the non-SA builds you mention, but it's totally burst or bust.  A lot has to go right (see the long list of counter play to backstabs) and if you blow it, you have to bail.  Not so with the Scrapper build in my clip.  I cannot speak to the skill of the Mirage he managed to beat, but good luck pulling that on any "one-shot" capable thief build after bursting.

In short, any thief build that can pull 10-15K isn't actually a viable thief build.  Sure, it can probably gank the odd AFK or beginner, but if anything sneezes on you, good luck.  And don't even think about mixing it up with condi builds.

28 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I won't get in to a discussion about the difficulty of playing Thief, I've stated my thoughts on the matter many times, so if you're interested you can see a recent comment about it here. tldr; I agree that

but Thief is still capable of huge spikes.

I saw that post and gave it the like. 🙂

28 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Because this seems to be something that's really getting on your nerves, I just want to suggest that you acknowledge this issue is not about the skill (Grenade Barrage) but rather a combination of things that exacerbate its potential. 
Again going back to what I'd said earlier in this thread, it's like Soulbeast with Rapid Fire, "Sic 'Em!" and OWP. Rapid Fire itself is a strong skill, but not problematic. It's only when it's paired with a number of other things that it becomes a busted.

It doesn't bother me as much as it might sound.  Mostly because it's still pretty rare.  The last time was in my August 29th post, and I have been putting in the hours essentially daily.  But when it does happen, it's a reminder of the completely nonsensical balancing approach.  Namely the fact this issue has been addressed in PvP, but for some bizarre reason, not in WvW, where it is arguably prone to even more abuse.

28 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

While I understand that you probably don't want to write a novel explaining everything that contributes to making Grenade Barrage busted, I just wanted to point out that it isn't fair to request nerfs to something without understanding the whole picture.
Eg. It is possible to spike up to 20k Backstabs - "nerf Backstab!" But the problem isn't the skill, it's everything that contributes to it. 

EDIT:
As someone with experience, I would say the best way to nerf it would be to halve the Barrier gain from all Grenade sources, reduce the coefficient of Explosive Entrance, and add a visual effect that will appear regardless of Stealth (meaning even if you cast it from Stealth, an effect will still be visible to others immediately as it is cast).
This would significantly reduce Scrapper sustain with Grenade Kit, weakens an unnecessarily strong passive (Explosive Entrance), and adds more time for counterplay when it's used from Stealth.

I haven't proposed how to nerf it, other than to suggest a nerf is needed.  The PvP nerf would seem a good starting point.  Like you and others have suggested, I do think the coefficients on Grenades and/or EE need to be reduced.  Even if nothing is done about the lack of telegraph from stealth, and the sustain that lets the build continue the fight after opening, at least reducing the spike would give a chance to react.  As has been said in this thread, Anet was supposedly trying to balance away from this sort of thing.

[displayname.8315]

Still on that 17k hp 0 toughness build.  Complaining about being killed too quickly.  You are both trying your hardest to reduce fights down to a single hit.  Either play a WvW build or really how can you complain about that.