Claim buff is the BANE of WvW

Claim buff:+400 stats + 25% movement speed (25% only active when no swift/superspeed)Presence of the keep:+400 stats

How much is 400/800 stats from claim buff?First one extra set of offensive runes2nd stats of extra set of defensive runesor800 stats = 3 ascended accessories (try playing without 2 ascended accessories if you think it doesn't matter)or200 power + 200 precision (6% damage + 9.5% crit chance) = 12.5% damage200 toughness + 200 vitality = 6-9% damage reduction + ~10% extra health pool

Was WvW balanced around this in design point of view?No. Claim buff didn't use to exist. Defenders have other advantages. Claim buff is also Passive bonus meaning you can't play to minimize advantages of it like other defender advantages.

How much difference does it make?Give any class in PvP 400 or 800 stats and everyone will be spamming it because its winrate will be twice as many as others.orCompare to 20% overall buff to anything in any other PvP game, its winrate would skyrocket.

What was WvW like before Claim buff?

• Guilds were fighting for objectives. If there was no fights they grouped up to assault enemy garrison (even GvG ones)
• Servers were doubleteaming the 3rd one on their map DAILY until both Hills/Bay were reset, sometimes defenders won despite being equally strong, sometimes they lost them despite being stronger.
• There were more commanders because attacking was more fun, and defending against roamers isn't
• New commanders were sprouting every week for epic home borderland/EB defenses

What positives removal/nerf of claim buff cause?

• More voice commanders and guilds open tagging
• Voice commanders more necessary for defending
• Sense of accomplishment when defending or attacking
• Scouts would be more important
• Equally strong guilds/blobs would fight one and another for keeps
• Scheduled raids wouldn't end in "Can't do anything"
• More activity on all maps (especially Home BL)
• Bad builds not being carried by it
• Less "T3 SM all day"
• Less stale "All borders and EB T3 for all sides"
• Just having a camp/tower nearby wouldn't make open field fight "unbalanced"
• Attacking wouldn't be labelled as "PPT" but rather as "Fighting"
• Small groups could do things without dying to random people
• Attacking on a map where enemy is active isn't trolling
• More activity home bl = More new commanders (because home bl is only place where they can get numbers)
• Longer group fights

Negatives

• Objectives would change owners more often :grey_question:
• Scouts and presieging would be more important :grey_question:
• People that only defend would have to run more optimal builds
• Weaker classes against groups won't be strong anywhere

Suggestions

• Removing claim buff completely would be the perfect solution for WvW point of view
• Nerfing claim buff would be more reasonable from design point of view because it is a guild upgrade after all. So lets say +40 each stat and +10% movement speed.
• Replace Presence of the keep with something that doesn't give active buffs and is comparable to Auto Turrets power level. Of course claim buff will still be way too strong for a balanced PvP gamemode but at least it doesn't ever become something that would deter all bored groups from attacking. For example supply generator or 30% stronger walls/gates. Also nerf claim buff to like +70 stat each because +100 is still too much.

EDIT: Added suggestion about replacing presence of the keep.

Territory buffs should be similar in power to superior bloodlust.

Where are we getting those numbers? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Presence_of_the_Keep

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

The above seems to be only for keeps while I guess if the keep also had https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Objective_Aura_VIII

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

You get the 200 to power, precision, toughness, and vitality? I don't think the movement speed and other stuff stacks, but I could be wrong. Meaning that only Keeps (does Stonemist count?) have the +200 not towers/camps. Even so I hate most of the guild claim upgrade stuff. Not enough cosmetics to sell on the gemstore.

D:

@"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:Where are we getting those numbers? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Presence_of_the_Keep

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

The above seems to be only for keeps while I guess if the keep also had https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Objective_Aura_VIII

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

You get the 200 to power, precision, toughness, and vitality? I don't think the movement speed and other stuff stacks, but I could be wrong. Meaning that only Keeps (does Stonemist count?) have the +200 not towers/camps. Even so I hate most of the guild claim upgrade stuff. Not enough cosmetics to sell on the gemstore.

D:

Well yeah, 400 stats + 25% movement speed is only 1 rune set (camps and towers). Movement speed doesn't apply when you have swiftness but still make a pretty big difference in a fight where boons are removed. I mean of course extra set of runes makes massive difference in roaming and defending, which is why lot of roamers transfer to servers that hold SM most of the time.

Keeps are 800 stats + 25% movement speed.

But as you see, my main focus wasn't on the movement speed but on the fact that Keeps are busted where you're essentially fighting against a group with 12+% more damage and 16+% more defences. Tower/Camp numbers aren't nice either. For example "best" camp defender will almost always beat "best" camp flipper making it harder for there to be any group/player to get sense of accomplishment of being better than others.

@Threather.9354 said:

@"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:Where are we getting those numbers?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Presence_of_the_Keep

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

The above seems to be only for keeps while I guess if the keep also had

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Objective_Aura_VIII

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

You get the 200 to power, precision, toughness, and vitality? I don't think the movement speed and other stuff stacks, but I could be wrong. Meaning that only Keeps (does Stonemist count?) have the +200 not towers/camps. Even so I hate most of the guild claim upgrade stuff. Not enough cosmetics to sell on the gemstore.

D:

And yet, keeps and towers flip frequently when there are populations to support.

It incentivized holding an objective.

Supposedly no one cares about score anymore, so why else would someone want to defend their structures?

@"Threather.9354" said:

What positives removal/nerf of claim buff cause?

• More voice commanders and guilds open tagging
• Voice commanders more necessary for defending
• Sense of accomplishment when defending or attacking
• Scouts would be more important
• Equally strong guilds/blobs would fight one and another for keeps
• Scheduled raids wouldn't end in "Can't do anything"
• More activity on all maps (especially Home BL)
• Bad builds not being carried by it
• Less "T3 SM all day"
• Less stale "All borders and EB T3 for all sides"
• Just having a camp/tower nearby wouldn't make open field fight "unbalanced"
• Attacking wouldn't be labelled as "PPT" but rather as "Fighting"
• Small groups could do things without dying to random people
• Attacking on a map where enemy is active isn't trolling
• More activity home bl = More new commanders (because home bl is only place where they can get numbers)
• Longer group fights

Pull every positive thing you could think of out of a hat? Not a single one of those things would happen because the buff was removed.

@Threather.9354 said:Pull every positive thing you could think of out of a hat? Not a single one of those things would happen because the buff was removed.

And additionally, the negatives don't hold water either:

Guilds were fighting for objectives. If there was no fights they grouped up to assault enemy garrison (even GvG ones)

Guilds still do, but usually only to draw out other players to fight

Servers were doubleteaming the 3rd one on their map DAILY until both Hills/Bay were reset, sometimes defenders won despite being equally strong, sometimes they lost them despite being stronger.

Still happens now, only the defenders rarely win because of siege and wall durability nerfs + warclaw means faster reinforcements. If anything the boon isn't ENOUGH to help defenders in this type of situation.

There were more commanders because attacking was more fun, and defending against roamers isn't

Commanders quit for various reasons, and I suspect the number who left because of the claim buff pales in comparison to those who just quit the game because ANET prioritized the Gem Store and PvE over WvW for...well, ever. Server lag, warclaw, no alliances...do you really think its the CLAIM BUFF that has chased away so many commanders?

Sorry, too many assumptions for this to be a cogent argument. Focus more on facts to build the case, because I do think this is a debate that is worthwhile.

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:Where are we getting those numbers?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Presence_of_the_Keep

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

The above seems to be only for keeps while I guess if the keep also had

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Objective_Aura_VIII

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

You get the 200 to power, precision, toughness, and vitality? I don't think the movement speed and other stuff stacks, but I could be wrong. Meaning that only Keeps (does Stonemist count?) have the +200 not towers/camps. Even so I hate most of the guild claim upgrade stuff. Not enough cosmetics to sell on the gemstore.

D:

Main thing is that, the game is supposed to be fun. Increase amount of attackers and the epicness of defending and there will be more active players around. Attackers are the proactive side, defenders just show up after attackers. If the game is more fun in general, defenders won't ever run out.

People often downtalk the bad feeling of losing a fight when attacking to overwhelming advantage in favor of one where you lose an objective. So they made defending super easy, which incentives people to not attack. And without attackers, there are no defenders.

@Threather.9354 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:Where are we getting those numbers?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Presence_of_the_Keep

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

The above seems to be only for keeps while I guess if the keep also had

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Objective_Aura_VIII

+5 Max Supply+10% WvW Experience+25% Movement Speed+100 Power+100 Precision+100 Toughness+100 Vitality+20% Magic Find

You get the 200 to power, precision, toughness, and vitality? I don't think the movement speed and other stuff stacks, but I could be wrong. Meaning that only Keeps (does Stonemist count?) have the +200 not towers/camps. Even so I hate most of the guild claim upgrade stuff. Not enough cosmetics to sell on the gemstore.

D:

And without defenders, it becomes a ktrain.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Threather.9354" said:Pull every positive thing you could think of out of a hat? Not a single one of those things would happen because the buff was removed.

Guilds were fighting for objectives. If there was no fights they grouped up to assault enemy garrison (even GvG ones)

Point was, they were fighting inside keeps and towers before, now all the defending side needs to do is not go outside and enjoy the farm of bored guilds disbanding when their options are either suiciding, GvGing or not raiding at all.

WvW is supposed to be epic fights for objectives, not epic fights OR objectives

Servers were doubleteaming the 3rd one on their map DAILY until both Hills/Bay were reset, sometimes defenders won despite being equally strong, sometimes they lost them despite being stronger.

Happens very rarely. Defenders win the fight always as long as they're on the map soon enough. Scouts and commanders should be necessary. Capping keeps because enemy happens to be busy on other side of map doesn't give you same thrills as killing them once and buying enough time for both keeps to flip. Yes I get it, lot of people are already used to "Snipe it" or "Rush it" meta for objectives but this isn't enjoyable way of attacking. Defeating enemies in the same go is the more enjoyable way

Defenders have tactics (EWP every 30 min, faster upgrade times and dragonbanners everywhere on map). Yes T3 keeps were rarity before HoT because upgrade times were like 5 times longer (no packed dollies, required more dollies) and so the walls were stronger. You can consider current T3 keep as strong as old T2 keep regarding gate/wall strength because upgrade times are similar.

There were more commanders because attacking was more fun, and defending against roamers isn't

Lot of the commanders are still around, and fewer are just not tagging up until something hits their BL and they can have easy farm.

Yes people quit because various reasons, and don't tag up for others. This is more of a reason why they're not tagging up rather than quitting the game. Then when there are less commanders, both enemy and ally, keeping them around, they have less fun, and then they disappear.

But yeah I am sure some of them quit because the T3 SM holds strong in both T1 and T2 everyday for same server (WSR, deso) making the most active map very very dull to play.

I do agree that there are other balance things like they could shift the balance by reducing claim buff and buffing AC damage, Increasing guild golem/shield gen supply cost and wall/gate HP a small amount making the defences active rather than passive.

@Threather.9354 said:

Main thing is that, the game is supposed to be fun. Increase amount of attackers and the epicness of defending and there will be more active players around. Attackers are the proactive side, defenders just show up after attackers. If the game is more fun in general, defenders won't ever run out.

People often downtalk the bad feeling of losing a fight when attacking to overwhelming advantage in favor of one where you lose an objective. So they made defending super easy, which incentives people to not attack. And without attackers, there are no defenders.

You keep assuming these are 1 v1 or 100 v 100 fights. They are not, they are 5 v 1 or 60 v 5 until and/if defenders arrive. You already have less people willing to defend now, I am not sure where you are playing that see warbands waiting in a structure to defend, outside of SMC. The more you weaken defenders the more you just end up with ktrains circling each other around a map. I run a havoc and these buffs don't make us pause at all. Until they show up with more than us or the zerg shows up, it's still a target unless we run out of supply. If it is a zerg issue, this sounds more like a commander issue concerned with not taking something and losing the zerg's moral. I think we will have to disagree, I see less havocs defending these days because there is little odds of holding off a larger force, it's just easier to attack them elsewhere than to try and hold or to strike their tails, which again does nothing since they will just rez them after the fight and keep going, you still lose the structure to numbers. And if you have defenders that die inside, they have to run back to regroup while the attackers can just press on after the fight as one mass.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

Main thing is that, the game is supposed to be fun. Increase amount of attackers and the epicness of defending and there will be more active players around. Attackers are the proactive side, defenders just show up after attackers. If the game is more fun in general, defenders won't ever run out.

People often downtalk the bad feeling of losing a fight when attacking to overwhelming advantage in favor of one where you lose an objective. So they made defending super easy, which incentives people to not attack. And without attackers, there are no defenders.

If you need 5 less attackers to penetrate objective, it would be more fair balance than what we currently have. Buffs don't obviously matter in 5v1 or 60v5 and are not representation of fun WvW. I am talking about how WvW used to be, and is still sometimes, where there were actually large groups defending and attacking willingly. Now large groups only snipe or rush objectives. Very few play this game just for fights and even fewer for just PPT, you're supposed to have big fights for objectives.

Garrison should be your last line of defence, like it used to be. Rest should be quite a lot easier to take than they currently are.

Yes more groups would be attacking, thus more objectives would be lost, but also more defending would be had and logging into WvW everyday would guarantee you action. Half the time these attacking groups would have to obviously defend against enemy servers attacking group. Main thing is that proactive gameplay (tagging up and hitting something enemy owns gives not only your server but also enemy server something to do) should be more enjoyable and the past balancechanges have pushed defending to be too easy.

Anyways please focus on the balance. 800 stats is too much. Think about it from PvP perspective.

And if you have defenders that die inside, they have to run back to regroup while the attackers can just press on after the fight as one mass.Hehe and if some of the attackers die, they're in even worse spot? Can't even ress in combat now.. At least defenders have the luxury of regrouping, they can choose to not do it.

There were several big buffs we used to have a long time ago, that got reworked/removed/replaced to what we have now. [Not all historical game design changes was documented properly, and newer players & devs may not be aware of them].

1. World WvW Rating bonuses, each world had bonuses to Magic Find, XP & Gathering (?) to all citizens based on how well the world was doing in a matchup. IIRC these would also provide those bonuses to PvE players, so everyone benefited from their server doing well in wvw. I think there was also attribute bonuses, but I forget the details.

2. We used to have lovely "Guard Stacks", those provided a significant boost to player attributes (as long as they had the required ranks in the mastery, was abit costly so newer players werent able to get these quickly).

(Historical) Applied Strength [Max +100 Power & Condition]Increases power and condition damage by 20; max stack of 5; lose stacks on death. Requires rank 5 in Guard Killer.

(Historical) Applied Fortitude [Max +250 Vitality]Gain 50 vitality per stack (max stack of 5; lose stacks on death). Requires rank 10 in Defense Against Guards.

So, before it was more about how many ranks you had and how good your world was doing in the matchup, but now the benefits are more easily attained by everyone on a team ("fairer" to newer players).

But, I dont believe nerfing claim buffs would do anything significant to change anything in wvw, but it would promote guilds to stop upgrading their guild halls and save lots of cash... that will then be used to inflate the game economy negatively. (Perhaps u are just being ironic about "more nerfs plz", i dunno :)

The only time I pay attention to claim buff is if it’s to be an outnumbered fight. As in: I have 5 they have 12. If they also have the buff I may back up. But 5 v 10 or less? The buff is easy to mitigate.

Agree, the claim buffs are hardly noticable in most cases.

For the sake of balance, why not remove stat bonuses and in exchange improve the rest? A more significant magic find and WvW experience bonus will not affect the outcome of the fight, but it may work as incentive for defending more often.

The removal would have no impact on supposedly positives...

These forums are terrible...

@"hugeboss.5432" said:There were several big buffs we used to have a long time ago, that got reworked/removed/replaced to what we have now. [Not all historical game design changes was documented properly, and newer players & devs may not be aware of them].

1. World WvW Rating bonuses, each world had bonuses to Magic Find, XP & Gathering (?) to all citizens based on how well the world was doing in a matchup. IIRC these would also provide those bonuses to PvE players, so everyone benefited from their server doing well in wvw. I think there was also attribute bonuses, but I forget the details.

2. We used to have lovely "Guard Stacks", those provided a significant boost to player attributes (as long as they had the required ranks in the mastery, was abit costly so newer players werent able to get these quickly).

(Historical) Applied Strength [Max +100 Power & Condition]Increases power and condition damage by 20; max stack of 5; lose stacks on death. Requires rank 5 in Guard Killer.

(Historical) Applied Fortitude [Max +250 Vitality]Gain 50 vitality per stack (max stack of 5; lose stacks on death). Requires rank 10 in Defense Against Guards.

So, before it was more about how many ranks you had and how good your world was doing in the matchup, but now the benefits are more easily attained by everyone on a team ("fairer" to newer players).

But, I dont believe nerfing claim buffs would do anything significant to change anything in wvw, but it would promote guilds to stop upgrading their guild halls and save lots of cash... that will then be used to inflate the game economy negatively. (Perhaps u are just being ironic about "more nerfs plz", i dunno :)

Guard stacks were attainable by both sides at the same time. It was different as you could play around it to some extent. Still was unfair to low ranks though. It benefitted attacker more though meaning removal of guard stacks and addition to claim buff were both nerfs to attacker stats. So my point stands, attacking is too hard right now.

And it wasn't as much stats, 100 + 100 condi damage power is not as much as 200 power + 200 precision regarding damage. 250 vitality isn't as much as 200 toughness and 200 vitality.

@hugeboss.5432 said:Agree, the claim buffs are hardly noticable in most cases.

Hardly noticeable because it is passive. If you look at your winrate between enemy camp and friendly camp against same enemy, you will see quite big differences. Same goes for bigger fights.

Just look at the amount of stats: If you add extra runes to your build as a skilled player, wouldn't you be busted? If a guild fights another equally strong guild that has extra set of runes, wouldn't they lose over 65% of time despite enemy having no visible advantages? And this is just regular claim buff (that extends to 90% of in the map), inside keeps it is twice as bad. You don't need to use brain now to defend things despite having so many more options than attackers, you can just brute force kill the enemy.

@"Skotlex.7580" said:For the sake of balance, why not remove stat bonuses and in exchange improve the rest? A more significant magic find and WvW experience bonus will not affect the outcome of the fight, but it may work as incentive for defending more often.

They could also:

• Buff wall/gate health a bit
• Increase AC damage a bit (the damage is quite low now)
• Increase supply cost of Guild golems/Shield Generators by like 20

Basically promoting active defences that your enemy can play around by taking their time rather than passive ones that will lead into miserable situation where you just get overwhelmed by stats that you can't play around in any other way than waiting for enemy to attack instead.

Defenders have plenty of other advantages, not sure why so many people are saying 400 or 800 stats is "not noticeable".

@Strider Pj.2193 said:The only time I pay attention to claim buff is if it’s to be an outnumbered fight. As in: I have 5 they have 12. If they also have the buff I may back up. But 5 v 10 or less? The buff is easy to mitigate.

Yes it is a passive buff that affects WvW in large scale. It makes defending too favourable in general. It isn't as rough on 5-10 player groups that focus on camps and towers, but makes keeps a terror. So they could either remove Presence of the keep (that is obviously much stronger than Auto turrets) or nerf claim buff in general. I am pretty sure even you wouldn't take a 5v5 fight these days near enemy keep which was possible in old days. This might even make you alter your walking routes and make you get less fights in general...

I am pretty sure having extra sets of runes are felt in stronger roaming scene and might have caused roaming dying a bit due to not being able to have powerranking between roamers. The great players usually hate losing, and overcoming extra 1 or 2 sets of runes against a measly decent player, might just lead them to dying too often in WvW against inferior players without even understanding what caused it.

@Threather.9354 said:

@"Skotlex.7580" said:For the sake of balance, why not remove stat bonuses and in exchange improve the rest? A more significant magic find and WvW experience bonus will not affect the outcome of the fight, but it may work as incentive for defending more often.

• Buff wall/gate health a bit
• Increase AC damage a bit (the damage is quite low now)
• Increase supply cost of Guild golems/Shield Generators by like 20

My assumption as a lot of defenders use siege and the buffs dont impact siege, thus there's no noticeable difference?

Yes, make it EVEN EASIER to cap things.My three responses are thus;"uh, no!""><"and, "WTF?!"

First they came for the arrow carts, but I wasn't an arrow cart so I did nothingThen they introduced shield generators, but I wasn't a shield generator so I did nothingThen they came for the Tier 2 and 3 walls, but I wasn't a Tier 2 or 3 wall so I did nothingThey they came for the claim buffs, but I wasn't a claim buff so I did nothingThen they came for me, —and there was no one left to speak for me.

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@"Skotlex.7580" said:For the sake of balance, why not remove stat bonuses and in exchange improve the rest? A more significant magic find and WvW experience bonus will not affect the outcome of the fight, but it may work as incentive for defending more often.

• Buff wall/gate health a bit
• Increase AC damage a bit (the damage is quite low now)
• Increase supply cost of Guild golems/Shield Generators by like 20

EU meta for defending is quite simple: Call help, cut backline, then just cloud enemy down with respawns/superior stats, no siege included. This is same on all strong KDR servers with quite a bit of transfers: WSR, Deso, Dzagonur. Players do more damage than ACs anyways (there is internal cooldown how often one can be hit by an AC), only thing with ACs is that it pulses a lot and removes Aegis.

You don't even need a commander to defend keeps/SM now...

Issue isn't the siege being killed by the defender siege either. You can easily play around defending siege with Ballistas, trebs, shield gens, etc. All attackers need is to have equal fighting ground so they don't have to just rush walls/gates down and get in the lord room, and can actually take their time clearing siege and having some fights.

@"Svarty.8019" said:Yes, make it EVEN EASIER to cap things.My three responses are thus;"uh, no!""><"and, "kitten?!"

First they came for the arrow carts, but I wasn't an arrow cart so I did nothingThen they introduced shield generators, but I wasn't a shield generator so I did nothingThen they came for the Tier 2 and 3 walls, but I wasn't a Tier 2 or 3 wall so I did nothingThey they came for the claim buffs, but I wasn't a claim buff so I did nothingThen they came for me, —and there was no one left to speak for me.

Buff the rest, remove/nerf claim buff.

Though they did buff upgrade times a lot (you can literally get T3 bay within an hour now when it took 6 hours minimum before), added tactics, added the fact that upgrades don't use supply. There have been plenty of buffs to defending, they just all happened at HoT launch. And attacking is still too unfun.

They just happened to nerf wrong things (AC damage, wall/gate HP) when claim buff was the biggest offender. Upgrade times, and packed/speedy dollies, are the 2nd biggest offender.

Regarding attacking, shield gens and guild golems are biggest offender which should have their supply cost increased by 20 or something. But this doesn't matter until attackers can actually fight back defenders a bit in their objectives. Also ACs should do more damage.

After all, fights are fun. There is no pleasure farming much worse players that lose a keep with 800 extra stats. Neither is there feeling of accomplishment when defending one when you have 800 extra stats. It is just too much. Ask any games PvP balancing dev or pro is 13% extra damage and 16% defences acceptable for one side and they'll say no.