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Something that was forgotten

Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 24, 2020 in PVP

Cba to look when they started to make conditions "less bursty" and do their damage over time rather than burst, especially burns.
Guardian's torch 4 flip skill
3 stacks of burn for 3s to do full damage. When others became 1 stack for longer duration like scourge torch,mesmer torch, ranger etc.
Just an example what happened to harrowing wave

December 12, 2017
Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 3 seconds to 1 stack for 8 seconds.
Torment has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 3 seconds to 2 stacks for 6 seconds.

Someone forgot this thing exists, especially when you get it for free from the trait.

DH's Hunter's Determination -
Drop a trap on being CC'd but also this trait has another functionality , which guardian alrdy have a trait for (60s cd, lol), each time they are being CC'ed, they gain aegis, no CD.
So, this never allows to land a big hit after CC'ing them, ever.
To contrarily what they said "we want to reduce passive auto-procs defenses", nice :)

October 26, 2015
Fixed an issue that caused this trait to apply aegis without respecting its cooldown.

So, I guess its a bug...again... ?

<1

Comments

  • Kondor.2904Kondor.2904 Member ✭✭✭

    But guard has only OnE DamAgInG cOnditIon, just cleanse.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Guardian has been mostly meta in all 3 gamemodes, At this point it really needs some very hefty nerfs.

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    You can't use base instant cast virtues in DH and FB. Hopefully this doesn't count as a "tradeoff" in Anet's eyes, because if it does, it's RIP.

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    Something obscured by divine magic

    [HCM] 4 life!

  • PLS.4095PLS.4095 Member ✭✭✭

    Nerf necro is the mistake.
    Actually need zero skill to tank 2V1, passive gameplay, low skill required , high reward as side noder.

    Priority number one to nerf.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @PLS.4095 said:
    Nerf necro is the mistake.
    Actually need zero skill to tank 2V1, passive gameplay, low skill required , high reward as side noder.

    Priority number one to nerf.

    My thread is basically shows a skill that was left out from the global treatment and a bugged trait that's gives an advantage. Basically a few fixes, not a nerf.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Guardian has been mostly meta in all 3 gamemodes, At this point it really needs some very hefty nerfs.

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    You can't use base instant cast virtues in DH and FB. Hopefully this doesn't count as a "tradeoff" in Anet's eyes, because if it does, it's RIP.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1163261#Comment_1163261

    If i got their trade off agenda right (what is an inconsistent mess anyway, no matter how you look at it), than that is indeed the trade off from Guard specs (losing core Virtues). Just like losing the normal dodge for MC is the Mirage trade off. While the one dodge change is just a PvP/ WvW orientated nerf to MC, they did because of bronze propaganda forum complains. Means an unnecessary and at the wrong places nerf to Condimirage from clueless Devs with no class knowledge and no class understanding based on complains from ppl with the same lack in understanding and knowledge for certain but not a trade off.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    That would be irrelevant to the topic I’m responding to.

    [HCM] 4 life!

  • AsiraasiB.7165AsiraasiB.7165 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    They upped dd dodge cost

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Guardian has been mostly meta in all 3 gamemodes, At this point it really needs some very hefty nerfs.

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    You can't use base instant cast virtues in DH and FB. Hopefully this doesn't count as a "tradeoff" in Anet's eyes, because if it does, it's RIP.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1163261#Comment_1163261

    If i got their trade off agenda right (what is an inconsistent mess anyway, no matter how you look at it), than that is indeed the trade off from Guard specs (losing core Virtues). Just like losing the normal dodge for MC is the Mirage trade off. While the one dodge change is just a PvP/ WvW orientated nerf to MC, they did because of bronze propaganda forum complains. Means an unnecessary and at the wrong places nerf to Condimirage from clueless Devs with no class knowledge and no class understanding based on complains from ppl with the same lack in understanding and knowledge for certain but not a trade off.

    According to the reasoning made in the post linked, the problem should not be the tradeoff but the skill pack he has obtained which is too strong, so the tomes should be nerfed, correct me if I'm wrong.

  • @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Sylanna.1947 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

    Swipe was made UNBLOCKABLE, which is a trade off. What he gave up for +1 evade AND 3 better evades on his choice??????????
    FB "trade off" that he lost normal virtues and gained tomes - doesnt mean trade off didnt happen in anet logic, tomes are basically +15 skills but who cares.
    Renegade still has no trade off too :)
    Also this thread isnt about "trade offs", feel free to make another one

    The ability to attack during the evade.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Guardian has been mostly meta in all 3 gamemodes, At this point it really needs some very hefty nerfs.

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    You can't use base instant cast virtues in DH and FB. Hopefully this doesn't count as a "tradeoff" in Anet's eyes, because if it does, it's RIP.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1163261#Comment_1163261

    If i got their trade off agenda right (what is an inconsistent mess anyway, no matter how you look at it), than that is indeed the trade off from Guard specs (losing core Virtues). Just like losing the normal dodge for MC is the Mirage trade off. While the one dodge change is just a PvP/ WvW orientated nerf to MC, they did because of bronze propaganda forum complains. Means an unnecessary and at the wrong places nerf to Condimirage from clueless Devs with no class knowledge and no class understanding based on complains from ppl with the same lack in understanding and knowledge for certain but not a trade off.

    According to the reasoning made in the post linked, the problem should not be the tradeoff but the skill pack he has obtained which is too strong, so the tomes should be nerfed, correct me if I'm wrong.

    Yes, at least that is my opinion. The skill kit all together on Fb is too strong. It doesn't need another mechanical trade off will lead to clunkyness, will delete active gameplay options (for example make Fb only have 1 tome, how horrible that would be!) and will delete skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from Fb (if you look at mechanics only and not how strong each skill is, than you have to agree that a Fb has a higher mechanical skill ceiling than core Guard or DH, just that the skill kit is overall too strong and that deletes a good part of the mechanical skill ceiling by making it rewarding even when just braindead spammed. So the lower skill ceiling comes from the too strong kit, means the bad balancing in terms of skill power and not from a missing trade off, not from the fact that Fb has more f-skills available). When you give a spec more skills, then each single skill needs to be weaker by itself, so that a skill ensemble with more skills available is not remarkable stronger than a spec/ class with less skills available. It can be a bit stronger when the skill ceiling to use the more skills effective is higher. Because skill requirement is a general trade off in balancing matters (ofc everything in moderation and within the equilibrium margin. In extremum we have different rules).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    speaking of torch, what the kitten is this
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Radiant_Fire
    jesus christ I used to play Paladin in nvo, why in the kitten did I made a mesmer.
    Should have stayed with the guard lol

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Odik.4587 said:
    Cba to look when they started to make conditions "less bursty" and do their damage over time rather than burst, especially burns.
    Guardian's torch 4 flip skill
    3 stacks of burn for 3s to do full damage. When others became 1 stack for longer duration like scourge torch,mesmer torch, ranger etc.
    Just an example what happened to harrowing wave

    December 12, 2017
    Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 3 seconds to 1 stack for 8 seconds.
    Torment has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 3 seconds to 2 stacks for 6 seconds.

    Someone forgot this thing exists, especially when you get it for free from the trait.

    DH's Hunter's Determination -
    Drop a trap on being CC'd but also this trait has another functionality , which guardian alrdy have a trait for (60s cd, lol), each time they are being CC'ed, they gain aegis, no CD.
    So, this never allows to land a big hit after CC'ing them, ever.
    To contrarily what they said "we want to reduce passive auto-procs defenses", nice :)

    October 26, 2015
    Fixed an issue that caused this trait to apply aegis without respecting its cooldown.

    So, I guess its a bug...again... ?

    Ya, Guardian torch is meta and every guardian runs torch. Wait.. no one does. I wounder why. Lets compare it to mesmer and necro who drop 3-4 other condis types, even though guardian has no cover condis. And FB does not run torch at all, since you cannot fit in radiance line and the cover condis from mantra of truth are reduced to one sec (basically non-existent). Not to mention how glitchy this weapon is. So.. ya.. If there is any viability to core condi guardian by playing burst one condi, which is not competitive (and never was since HoT release), QUICK KILL IT. Mind you, torch 4 duration was nerfed from 3 secs to 2 secs in PvP.

    I would not care if they remove the virtues trait aegis on CC. It is not as effective as you advertise. And you only run it cuz the alternatives major adept traits suck.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    If you are unable to read OP, why should I bother explaining something to you?
    But ok, if skill with 1.75 coefficient and 3 burn stacks 3s is WEAK, can other similar skills to be WEAKENED to its level and give a trait that activate it for free, thanks.And gib me defensive autoprocs w/o cooldowns too, its weak anyway. 😂
    As for your false claims to be longest CD -> Any other defensive auto-proc have 300s cd (like warrior 2 defense traits, thief auto-evade and whatelse is there), guardian HD trait can be reduced to 240, just so you know.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Btw, Torch 4 on Guardian is unblockable and unevadable, just like it's trait that's every 10 seconds. Doing the math since the skill is effective for 3 seconds, that's just every 7 seconds.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Btw, Torch 4 on Guardian is unblockable and unevadable, just like it's trait that's every 10 seconds. Doing the math since the skill is effective for 3 seconds, that's just every 7 seconds.

    Torch 4 has 2 skills - 1 is set you aflame and cause AOE burn which quickly burst you through blocks and while its active it flips to the second - throwing the flame that has 1.75 power coefficient + 3 burn stacks for 3 seconds. In the radiance traitline there is a trait that auto-procs it on crit every 10s, lol.
    They wont change the first part of the skill but the second definitely should be adjusted.

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Odik.4587 said:

    If you are unable to read OP, why should I bother explaining something to you?
    But ok, if skill with 1.75 coefficient and 3 burn stacks 3s is WEAK, can other similar skills to be WEAKENED to its level and give a trait that activate it for free, thanks.And gib me defensive autoprocs w/o cooldowns too, its weak anyway. 😂
    As for your false claims to be longest CD -> Any other defensive auto-proc have 300s cd (like warrior 2 defense traits, thief auto-evade and whatelse is there), guardian HD trait can be reduced to 240, just so you know.

    Again, still not powerful enough to be meta. If anything, its what makes core burn guard remotely viable. Look at the entire core guard skillset and trait set. Almost nothing PRODUCES any significant burning stacks except F1, traited sword of justice, and zealots fire. There are almost as many traits enhancing burning as there are ways to apply it. And thats the ONLY damage condi guard can produce. Complaining about the only trait that keeps core burn guard fringe viable is laughable. Why not just go play it and see why its not very popular.

    lol... 'your false claim'. By your own admission, 300s is the longest in the game, but there are more than one. So ok, TIED for the longest cd. That it can be traited to be less doesn't really matter. Taking 2 traits to make your 5 min conditional trait 'only' 4 mins isn't viable in any world. Stacking a conditional passive that grants the worst boon in the game on a non-viable trait actually seems like a positive thing.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    complaining about guard torch... I've seen everything.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Sylanna.1947 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

    Swipe was made UNBLOCKABLE, which is a trade off. What he gave up for +1 evade AND 3 better evades on his choice??????????
    FB "trade off" that he lost normal virtues and gained tomes - doesnt mean trade off didnt happen in anet logic, tomes are basically +15 skills but who cares.
    Renegade still has no trade off too :)
    Also this thread isnt about "trade offs", feel free to make another one

    The unblockable is a token gesture, it actually is completely irrelevant (well, maybe not anymore. Now that Bountiful Theft only rips 2 boons, sometimes it will fail to rip Aegis, unless they changed the boonrip priority as well. Actually, they probably did.). Sides, the "3 better evades of his choice" are the Grandmaster trait. By that logic you could ask "what did Spellbreaker give up for Magebane Tether?". The only actual mechanic Daredevil gives is the third dodge. Mind you, its not actually as good as it sounds. Its basically one extra dodge per fight. Not every X seconds, not in certain scenarios, one per fight. Hell, its worse than that, because in order for Daredevil to get that, they had to remove the same trait from Acrobatics first, except the Acrobatics one was better.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Sylanna.1947 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

    Swipe was made UNBLOCKABLE, which is a trade off. What he gave up for +1 evade AND 3 better evades on his choice??????????
    FB "trade off" that he lost normal virtues and gained tomes - doesnt mean trade off didnt happen in anet logic, tomes are basically +15 skills but who cares.
    Renegade still has no trade off too :)
    Also this thread isnt about "trade offs", feel free to make another one

    The unblockable is a token gesture, it actually is completely irrelevant (well, maybe not anymore. Now that Bountiful Theft only rips 2 boons, sometimes it will fail to rip Aegis, unless they changed the boonrip priority as well. Actually, they probably did.). Sides, the "3 better evades of his choice" are the Grandmaster trait. By that logic you could ask "what did Spellbreaker give up for Magebane Tether?". The only actual mechanic Daredevil gives is the third dodge. Mind you, its not actually as good as it sounds. Its basically one extra dodge per fight. Not every X seconds, not in certain scenarios, one per fight. Hell, its worse than that, because in order for Daredevil to get that, they had to remove the same trait from Acrobatics first, except the Acrobatics one was better.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft
    as far as I remember, about 1 year BT always stripped stab and aegis first.
    From DD you get 1 extra dodge in a fight every time you fully reset stamina. that includes stealth, disengage or simply not being forced to dodge.

  • aelska.4609aelska.4609 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    Just one word:
    "Miss".
    Even if this skill could one shot on hit, it wouldn't be used :p

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Sylanna.1947 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

    Swipe was made UNBLOCKABLE, which is a trade off. What he gave up for +1 evade AND 3 better evades on his choice??????????
    FB "trade off" that he lost normal virtues and gained tomes - doesnt mean trade off didnt happen in anet logic, tomes are basically +15 skills but who cares.
    Renegade still has no trade off too :)
    Also this thread isnt about "trade offs", feel free to make another one

    The unblockable is a token gesture, it actually is completely irrelevant (well, maybe not anymore. Now that Bountiful Theft only rips 2 boons, sometimes it will fail to rip Aegis, unless they changed the boonrip priority as well. Actually, they probably did.). Sides, the "3 better evades of his choice" are the Grandmaster trait. By that logic you could ask "what did Spellbreaker give up for Magebane Tether?". The only actual mechanic Daredevil gives is the third dodge. Mind you, its not actually as good as it sounds. Its basically one extra dodge per fight. Not every X seconds, not in certain scenarios, one per fight. Hell, its worse than that, because in order for Daredevil to get that, they had to remove the same trait from Acrobatics first, except the Acrobatics one was better.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft
    as far as I remember, about 1 year BT always stripped stab and aegis first.
    From DD you get 1 extra dodge in a fight every time you fully reset stamina. that includes stealth, disengage or simply not being forced to dodge.

    Actually it has 3 boons it rips at equal priority. Stab and Aegis are 2 of them, but it also has Protection at max priority. Now that it only rips 2, its possible that it might rip stab and prot but leave Aegis on it. Or they changed it to only rip Stab and Aegis at max priority. I dont actually know, I havent really tested it.

    In theory, yes. In praxis however, that doesnt happen, as Daredevil doesnt want to ever be at max dodges. Either the build is running Havoc Mastery, in which case it wants to be at about 1 dodge-roll open to maximise damage without completely giving up their defense. Or its running Staff, in which case it wants to maximise Bound uptime, which also leaves it at less than 3 dodges at all times. Hell, ironically the Daredevils using Dash usually dont even start the fight with 3 dodges. And as for stealth or disengage, that means theyre running away and wont reengage for a bit. At that point the next fight is just that, a new fight.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Sylanna.1947 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

    Swipe was made UNBLOCKABLE, which is a trade off. What he gave up for +1 evade AND 3 better evades on his choice??????????
    FB "trade off" that he lost normal virtues and gained tomes - doesnt mean trade off didnt happen in anet logic, tomes are basically +15 skills but who cares.
    Renegade still has no trade off too :)
    Also this thread isnt about "trade offs", feel free to make another one

    The unblockable is a token gesture, it actually is completely irrelevant (well, maybe not anymore. Now that Bountiful Theft only rips 2 boons, sometimes it will fail to rip Aegis, unless they changed the boonrip priority as well. Actually, they probably did.). Sides, the "3 better evades of his choice" are the Grandmaster trait. By that logic you could ask "what did Spellbreaker give up for Magebane Tether?". The only actual mechanic Daredevil gives is the third dodge. Mind you, its not actually as good as it sounds. Its basically one extra dodge per fight. Not every X seconds, not in certain scenarios, one per fight. Hell, its worse than that, because in order for Daredevil to get that, they had to remove the same trait from Acrobatics first, except the Acrobatics one was better.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft
    as far as I remember, about 1 year BT always stripped stab and aegis first.
    From DD you get 1 extra dodge in a fight every time you fully reset stamina. that includes stealth, disengage or simply not being forced to dodge.

    Actually it has 3 boons it rips at equal priority. Stab and Aegis are 2 of them, but it also has Protection at max priority. Now that it only rips 2, its possible that it might rip stab and prot but leave Aegis on it. Or they changed it to only rip Stab and Aegis at max priority. I dont actually know, I havent really tested it.

    In theory, yes. In praxis however, that doesnt happen, as Daredevil doesnt want to ever be at max dodges. Either the build is running Havoc Mastery, in which case it wants to be at about 1 dodge-roll open to maximise damage without completely giving up their defense. Or its running Staff, in which case it wants to maximise Bound uptime, which also leaves it at less than 3 dodges at all times. Hell, ironically the Daredevils using Dash usually dont even start the fight with 3 dodges. And as for stealth or disengage, that means theyre running away and wont reengage for a bit. At that point the next fight is just that, a new fight.

    yes that, or maybe you stealth and get a dodge for it or maybe you are ignored in teamfight and get a dodge out of it, or maybe your enemy used rampage so you disengage for 10s or maybe it turned out into 2v1 and you have to leave and wait for your enemy to leave or maybe this or maybe that.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Sylanna.1947 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

    Swipe was made UNBLOCKABLE, which is a trade off. What he gave up for +1 evade AND 3 better evades on his choice??????????
    FB "trade off" that he lost normal virtues and gained tomes - doesnt mean trade off didnt happen in anet logic, tomes are basically +15 skills but who cares.
    Renegade still has no trade off too :)
    Also this thread isnt about "trade offs", feel free to make another one

    The unblockable is a token gesture, it actually is completely irrelevant (well, maybe not anymore. Now that Bountiful Theft only rips 2 boons, sometimes it will fail to rip Aegis, unless they changed the boonrip priority as well. Actually, they probably did.). Sides, the "3 better evades of his choice" are the Grandmaster trait. By that logic you could ask "what did Spellbreaker give up for Magebane Tether?". The only actual mechanic Daredevil gives is the third dodge. Mind you, its not actually as good as it sounds. Its basically one extra dodge per fight. Not every X seconds, not in certain scenarios, one per fight. Hell, its worse than that, because in order for Daredevil to get that, they had to remove the same trait from Acrobatics first, except the Acrobatics one was better.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft
    as far as I remember, about 1 year BT always stripped stab and aegis first.
    From DD you get 1 extra dodge in a fight every time you fully reset stamina. that includes stealth, disengage or simply not being forced to dodge.

    Actually it has 3 boons it rips at equal priority. Stab and Aegis are 2 of them, but it also has Protection at max priority. Now that it only rips 2, its possible that it might rip stab and prot but leave Aegis on it. Or they changed it to only rip Stab and Aegis at max priority. I dont actually know, I havent really tested it.

    In theory, yes. In praxis however, that doesnt happen, as Daredevil doesnt want to ever be at max dodges. Either the build is running Havoc Mastery, in which case it wants to be at about 1 dodge-roll open to maximise damage without completely giving up their defense. Or its running Staff, in which case it wants to maximise Bound uptime, which also leaves it at less than 3 dodges at all times. Hell, ironically the Daredevils using Dash usually dont even start the fight with 3 dodges. And as for stealth or disengage, that means theyre running away and wont reengage for a bit. At that point the next fight is just that, a new fight.

    yes that, or maybe you stealth and get a dodge for it or maybe you are ignored in teamfight and get a dodge out of it, or maybe your enemy used rampage so you disengage for 10s or maybe it turned out into 2v1 and you have to leave and wait for your enemy to leave or maybe this or maybe that.

    If you stealth, you have already disengaged, and the next time you fight, it will be, well, a new fight. Daredevil shouldnt even be within a teamfight, and if they are, theyre not getting ignored. Disengaging means a new fight, same as before. And of course its going to be a 2v1. You dont enter a fight as a thief unless your side outnumbers. You're not supposed to fight even fights, you lose them.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Sylanna.1947 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

    Swipe was made UNBLOCKABLE, which is a trade off. What he gave up for +1 evade AND 3 better evades on his choice??????????
    FB "trade off" that he lost normal virtues and gained tomes - doesnt mean trade off didnt happen in anet logic, tomes are basically +15 skills but who cares.
    Renegade still has no trade off too :)
    Also this thread isnt about "trade offs", feel free to make another one

    The unblockable is a token gesture, it actually is completely irrelevant (well, maybe not anymore. Now that Bountiful Theft only rips 2 boons, sometimes it will fail to rip Aegis, unless they changed the boonrip priority as well. Actually, they probably did.). Sides, the "3 better evades of his choice" are the Grandmaster trait. By that logic you could ask "what did Spellbreaker give up for Magebane Tether?". The only actual mechanic Daredevil gives is the third dodge. Mind you, its not actually as good as it sounds. Its basically one extra dodge per fight. Not every X seconds, not in certain scenarios, one per fight. Hell, its worse than that, because in order for Daredevil to get that, they had to remove the same trait from Acrobatics first, except the Acrobatics one was better.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft
    as far as I remember, about 1 year BT always stripped stab and aegis first.
    From DD you get 1 extra dodge in a fight every time you fully reset stamina. that includes stealth, disengage or simply not being forced to dodge.

    Actually it has 3 boons it rips at equal priority. Stab and Aegis are 2 of them, but it also has Protection at max priority. Now that it only rips 2, its possible that it might rip stab and prot but leave Aegis on it. Or they changed it to only rip Stab and Aegis at max priority. I dont actually know, I havent really tested it.

    In theory, yes. In praxis however, that doesnt happen, as Daredevil doesnt want to ever be at max dodges. Either the build is running Havoc Mastery, in which case it wants to be at about 1 dodge-roll open to maximise damage without completely giving up their defense. Or its running Staff, in which case it wants to maximise Bound uptime, which also leaves it at less than 3 dodges at all times. Hell, ironically the Daredevils using Dash usually dont even start the fight with 3 dodges. And as for stealth or disengage, that means theyre running away and wont reengage for a bit. At that point the next fight is just that, a new fight.

    yes that, or maybe you stealth and get a dodge for it or maybe you are ignored in teamfight and get a dodge out of it, or maybe your enemy used rampage so you disengage for 10s or maybe it turned out into 2v1 and you have to leave and wait for your enemy to leave or maybe this or maybe that.

    If you stealth, you have already disengaged, and the next time you fight, it will be, well, a new fight. Daredevil shouldnt even be within a teamfight, and if they are, theyre not getting ignored. Disengaging means a new fight, same as before. And of course its going to be a 2v1. You dont enter a fight as a thief unless your side outnumbers. You're not supposed to fight even fights, you lose them.

    are you trolling?
    you can disengage and rejoin the fight 3-5s later. sheesh

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think all the people calling for necro nerfs would be defending their class if it was in necro current state lol. Nexeos probobly have ptsd from the past where they'd get hard focused and due to low mobility end up just eating it and dying, except for that while where scourge was overperforming which then got over nerfed. Anet doesn't instil much conference when it comes to shave downs so u gotta understand why anyone and everyone defends their spec.
    I've seen some necro players admitting shroud gain was a bit much and could use a shave to shave down their sustain. If seen a few other ideas posted as well that weren't out right gutting, unfortunately that's not the norm when it comes to nerf suggestions lol

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Sylanna.1947 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

    Swipe was made UNBLOCKABLE, which is a trade off. What he gave up for +1 evade AND 3 better evades on his choice??????????
    FB "trade off" that he lost normal virtues and gained tomes - doesnt mean trade off didnt happen in anet logic, tomes are basically +15 skills but who cares.
    Renegade still has no trade off too :)
    Also this thread isnt about "trade offs", feel free to make another one

    The unblockable is a token gesture, it actually is completely irrelevant (well, maybe not anymore. Now that Bountiful Theft only rips 2 boons, sometimes it will fail to rip Aegis, unless they changed the boonrip priority as well. Actually, they probably did.). Sides, the "3 better evades of his choice" are the Grandmaster trait. By that logic you could ask "what did Spellbreaker give up for Magebane Tether?". The only actual mechanic Daredevil gives is the third dodge. Mind you, its not actually as good as it sounds. Its basically one extra dodge per fight. Not every X seconds, not in certain scenarios, one per fight. Hell, its worse than that, because in order for Daredevil to get that, they had to remove the same trait from Acrobatics first, except the Acrobatics one was better.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft
    as far as I remember, about 1 year BT always stripped stab and aegis first.
    From DD you get 1 extra dodge in a fight every time you fully reset stamina. that includes stealth, disengage or simply not being forced to dodge.

    Actually it has 3 boons it rips at equal priority. Stab and Aegis are 2 of them, but it also has Protection at max priority. Now that it only rips 2, its possible that it might rip stab and prot but leave Aegis on it. Or they changed it to only rip Stab and Aegis at max priority. I dont actually know, I havent really tested it.

    In theory, yes. In praxis however, that doesnt happen, as Daredevil doesnt want to ever be at max dodges. Either the build is running Havoc Mastery, in which case it wants to be at about 1 dodge-roll open to maximise damage without completely giving up their defense. Or its running Staff, in which case it wants to maximise Bound uptime, which also leaves it at less than 3 dodges at all times. Hell, ironically the Daredevils using Dash usually dont even start the fight with 3 dodges. And as for stealth or disengage, that means theyre running away and wont reengage for a bit. At that point the next fight is just that, a new fight.

    yes that, or maybe you stealth and get a dodge for it or maybe you are ignored in teamfight and get a dodge out of it, or maybe your enemy used rampage so you disengage for 10s or maybe it turned out into 2v1 and you have to leave and wait for your enemy to leave or maybe this or maybe that.

    If you stealth, you have already disengaged, and the next time you fight, it will be, well, a new fight. Daredevil shouldnt even be within a teamfight, and if they are, theyre not getting ignored. Disengaging means a new fight, same as before. And of course its going to be a 2v1. You dont enter a fight as a thief unless your side outnumbers. You're not supposed to fight even fights, you lose them.

    are you trolling?
    you can disengage and rejoin the fight 3-5s later. sheesh

    To actually disengage, you need to swap to shortbow and port out. Minimum cooldown is 9 seconds from the weaponswap. More if you wanna get back full initiative. Mind you, even if that wasnt the case, in 3-5 seconds you wouldnt even get back your third dodge, so that point would be moot.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Nexeos probobly have ptsd from the past

    Past is irrelevant from a balance perspective

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Nexeos probobly have ptsd from the past

    Past is irrelevant from a balance perspective

    Was explaining a possible explanation for their behavior in defending necro current state but ok.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132
    yes, SB is the only way thief can disengage. definitely

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    yes, SB is the only way thief can disengage. definitely

    Unless their enemy is willing to let them leave, or they burn Shadowstep (which is far too valuable to be burned for disengaging), it kinda is. I mean what else are you gonna do, try to move away with swiftness? Heartseeker? Even my Engineer will catch up to you in no time, and Engineer is not exactly a mobile class.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    yes, SB is the only way thief can disengage. definitely

    Unless their enemy is willing to let them leave, or they burn Shadowstep (which is far too valuable to be burned for disengaging), it kinda is. I mean what else are you gonna do, try to move away with swiftness? Heartseeker? Even my Engineer will catch up to you in no time, and Engineer is not exactly a mobile class.

    1 Daggerstorm
    2 Sword 2
    3 Sword 5
    4 Shadowstep
    5 Steal into other preoc enemy
    6 F2 if you steak from thief
    7 hearthseeker in smoke field
    those are just of the top of my head. in theory you could chase down after thief uses some of them but you would use more utility to chase then they use to escape, and after using 1 of thse they can follow up with another if need be.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    yes, SB is the only way thief can disengage. definitely

    Unless their enemy is willing to let them leave, or they burn Shadowstep (which is far too valuable to be burned for disengaging), it kinda is. I mean what else are you gonna do, try to move away with swiftness? Heartseeker? Even my Engineer will catch up to you in no time, and Engineer is not exactly a mobile class.

    1 Daggerstorm
    2 Sword 2
    3 Sword 5
    4 Shadowstep
    5 Steal into other preoc enemy
    6 F2 if you steak from thief
    7 hearthseeker in smoke field
    those are just of the top of my head. in theory you could chase down after thief uses some of them but you would use more utility to chase then they use to escape, and after using 1 of thse they can follow up with another if need be.

    Lets go over them. "Daggerstorm". Its even more of a valuable cooldown than Shadowstep is, and it only does so much. Itll cover about, hm, 520 distance over 2.75 seconds? Again, I could catch up to that as an Engineer using just Jump Shot. Sword 2, only works if your enemy doesnt push you towards your sword 2 location. Which a good one will. Sword 5. Thief doesnt have offhand sword. If you mean Dagger 5, that one is slow, telegraphed and doesnt even help you that much because youre in prime cleave range. Shadowstep, yeah, but too valuable. Stealign to another enemy doesnt help you disengage. It just switches who you need to disengage from.

    F2 when stealing from thief works, but youre not gonna be disengaging from a thief. Also, if done in melee range, still prime cleave range. "Heartseeker in a smoke field" way too slow. If you need to disengage, you need to do so right now, not go through 1.25 seconds of animation that your opponent can freely hit you during, and with the opponent being able to just go towards where youre heartseeking to cleave you down. Id also say too initiative intensive to usually be an option, but that is secondary.

    Actually, you can chase the thief down after all but 4 and 2 if you didnt push them down. And you would need to use almost nothing. Jump Shot suffices. Nevermind Rush, Whirlwind attack, Swoop, Intervention, Frigid Blitz, or any other dash or shadowstep that almost all classes have on their weaponsets.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    yes, SB is the only way thief can disengage. definitely

    Unless their enemy is willing to let them leave, or they burn Shadowstep (which is far too valuable to be burned for disengaging), it kinda is. I mean what else are you gonna do, try to move away with swiftness? Heartseeker? Even my Engineer will catch up to you in no time, and Engineer is not exactly a mobile class.

    1 Daggerstorm
    2 Sword 2
    3 Sword 5
    4 Shadowstep
    5 Steal into other preoc enemy
    6 F2 if you steak from thief
    7 hearthseeker in smoke field
    those are just of the top of my head. in theory you could chase down after thief uses some of them but you would use more utility to chase then they use to escape, and after using 1 of thse they can follow up with another if need be.

    Lets go over them. "Daggerstorm". Its even more of a valuable cooldown than Shadowstep is, and it only does so much. Itll cover about, hm, 520 distance over 2.75 seconds? Again, I could catch up to that as an Engineer using just Jump Shot. Sword 2, only works if your enemy doesnt push you towards your sword 2 location. Which a good one will. Sword 5. Thief doesnt have offhand sword. If you mean Dagger 5, that one is slow, telegraphed and doesnt even help you that much because youre in prime cleave range. Shadowstep, yeah, but too valuable. Stealign to another enemy doesnt help you disengage. It just switches who you need to disengage from.

    F2 when stealing from thief works, but youre not gonna be disengaging from a thief. Also, if done in melee range, still prime cleave range. "Heartseeker in a smoke field" way too slow. If you need to disengage, you need to do so right now, not go through 1.25 seconds of animation that your opponent can freely hit you during, and with the opponent being able to just go towards where youre heartseeking to cleave you down. Id also say too initiative intensive to usually be an option, but that is secondary.

    Actually, you can chase the thief down after all but 4 and 2 if you didnt push them down. And you would need to use almost nothing. Jump Shot suffices. Nevermind Rush, Whirlwind attack, Swoop, Intervention, Frigid Blitz, or any other dash or shadowstep that almost all classes have on their weaponsets.

    I must be playing against some God thiefs all the time then.
    5Head thief masterminds everywhere.
    you dont push thief into his sword 2 retreat, thief decides where he kites away, it is a node game. if enemy decides to push towards your port spot you decap, show them middle finger and leave them etc etc.
    Steal can be used to pets/clones/gates/beast or just enemies that cant pressure you, its a good option.
    Yes dagger 5, and you can cast it behind you and turn around to trick it or combine it with steal or hit clone/pet whatever.
    Hearthseeker + smoke fiedl, expecially p5 is super safe, p5 applies blind so you are safe, and after first jump you create both distance and stealth. oponent has to guess if he should cleave smoke filed when thief is not even inside, or just take a guess with tp/leaps and cleave air.
    And F2 bundle works, I have midnight signet that works exactly the same, and I dont have problems using it to disengage, it even lasts 2s instead of 3.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 and @UNOwen.7132

    Let's just wait for mAT, and see how good thieves play against good players. Currently, neither of you can prove anything (unless with several videos on different cases).

    There are times when someone can just "about face and hold w" to disengage, and sometimes you can't disengage even with shortbow 5. There are also cases a guardian can disengage from a power herald or from a thief. GW2 is all about cooldowns.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    yes, SB is the only way thief can disengage. definitely

    Unless their enemy is willing to let them leave, or they burn Shadowstep (which is far too valuable to be burned for disengaging), it kinda is. I mean what else are you gonna do, try to move away with swiftness? Heartseeker? Even my Engineer will catch up to you in no time, and Engineer is not exactly a mobile class.

    1 Daggerstorm
    2 Sword 2
    3 Sword 5
    4 Shadowstep
    5 Steal into other preoc enemy
    6 F2 if you steak from thief
    7 hearthseeker in smoke field
    those are just of the top of my head. in theory you could chase down after thief uses some of them but you would use more utility to chase then they use to escape, and after using 1 of thse they can follow up with another if need be.

    Lets go over them. "Daggerstorm". Its even more of a valuable cooldown than Shadowstep is, and it only does so much. Itll cover about, hm, 520 distance over 2.75 seconds? Again, I could catch up to that as an Engineer using just Jump Shot. Sword 2, only works if your enemy doesnt push you towards your sword 2 location. Which a good one will. Sword 5. Thief doesnt have offhand sword. If you mean Dagger 5, that one is slow, telegraphed and doesnt even help you that much because youre in prime cleave range. Shadowstep, yeah, but too valuable. Stealign to another enemy doesnt help you disengage. It just switches who you need to disengage from.

    F2 when stealing from thief works, but youre not gonna be disengaging from a thief. Also, if done in melee range, still prime cleave range. "Heartseeker in a smoke field" way too slow. If you need to disengage, you need to do so right now, not go through 1.25 seconds of animation that your opponent can freely hit you during, and with the opponent being able to just go towards where youre heartseeking to cleave you down. Id also say too initiative intensive to usually be an option, but that is secondary.

    Actually, you can chase the thief down after all but 4 and 2 if you didnt push them down. And you would need to use almost nothing. Jump Shot suffices. Nevermind Rush, Whirlwind attack, Swoop, Intervention, Frigid Blitz, or any other dash or shadowstep that almost all classes have on their weaponsets.

    I must be playing against some God thiefs all the time then.
    5Head thief masterminds everywhere.
    you dont push thief into his sword 2 retreat, thief decides where he kites away, it is a node game. if enemy decides to push towards your port spot you decap, show them middle finger and leave them etc etc.

    Not really. There are 2 scenarios. Either you started on the node, or the thief did. Realistically, the latter is more likely, as thief is the decap class. Obviously in the latter, pushing into the sword 2 spot is trivial, because its on the node where you want to be anyway. In the former, it would be trickier, except if you see a thief barreling at you, you simply walk back further into the Node. If he wants to port on you, he then does so from a spot thats pretty close to the node. Walk forward to it, and youre still safe on the node. The thief really doesnt have enough agency to create port spots wherever he wants, not if he wants to get close enough to fight and not just be shot at from afar, at any rate.

    Steal can be used to pets/clones/gates/beast or just enemies that cant pressure you, its a good option.

    Gates and beasts work, but that is incredibly narrow. Pets and clones are usually too close to the person youre trying to disengage from to actually be disengaging from them. Maybe not clones, they ^do like to move erratically.

    Yes dagger 5, and you can cast it behind you and turn around to trick it or combine it with steal or hit clone/pet whatever.

    Cast it ... behind you? The animation is clearly visible from any angle, and its still not fast. Casting it behind you and turning around doesnt really help you. Combining it with steal just means youre in cleave range and the opponent will have little trouble tracking you. Clones and Pets do work, but even then youre usually too close.

    Hearthseeker + smoke fiedl, expecially p5 is super safe, p5 applies blind so you are safe, and after first jump you create both distance and stealth. oponent has to guess if he should cleave smoke filed when thief is not even inside, or just take a guess with tp/leaps and cleave air.

    Its not safe. At all. Its actually hilariously unsafe. Sure, you get one (!!!!) blind, but its still 1.25 seconds of animations during which the enemy gets free reign hitting you, and its not like they cant just move towards where you heartseekered. But yeah, I have seen a lot of thieves do it mid-combat, thinking it was safe. Only to eat a Grenade Barrage and get downed immediately. Poor guys, but they knew what they were getting into when they brought thief into 2v2.

    And F2 bundle works, I have midnight signet that works exactly the same, and I dont have problems using it to disengage, it even lasts 2s instead of 3.

    It works depending on class. If they have no/limited cleave and no/limited AoE, yeah it does. Not a lot of builds like that though.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649 and @UNOwen.7132

    Let's just wait for mAT, and see how good thieves play against good players. Currently, neither of you can prove anything (unless with several videos on different cases).

    There are times when someone can just "about face and hold w" to disengage, and sometimes you can't disengage even with shortbow 5. There are also cases a guardian can disengage from a power herald or from a thief. GW2 is all about cooldowns.

    Oh Im not saying thief isnt good. As long as shortbow 5 exists, and as long as Conquest is the main gamemode, I cant even imagine a meta where thief isnt good. Im not even saying theyre not good at disengaging because again, shortbow 5 (honestly we should just call the class Shortbow 5 at this point). Im saying that Daredevils third dodge, as far as "upgrades" the class get, is really minor. I mean thats kinda my main gripe with Daredevil, it doesnt feel like an elite spec. It just felt like slightly altered Acrobatics. Its the same issue I have with scrapper, except at least Scrapper got the Function Gyro (before that got blasted apart).

  • Captain Kuro.8937Captain Kuro.8937 Member ✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Its not safe. At all. Its actually hilariously unsafe. Sure, you get one (!!!!) blind, but its still 1.25 seconds of animations during which the enemy gets free reign hitting you, and its not like they cant just move towards where you heartseekered. But yeah, I have seen a lot of thieves do it mid-combat, thinking it was safe. Only to eat a Grenade Barrage and get downed immediately. Poor guys, but they knew what they were getting into when they brought thief into 2v2.

    I think its 2 blinds
    The one the moment you cast it , and another after 1 sec .
    Also Heartseeker has a leep , that allow you to travel some distance and avoid the meele player

    Dont Over Extent - Desolation

    BrB

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Captain Kuro.8937 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Its not safe. At all. Its actually hilariously unsafe. Sure, you get one (!!!!) blind, but its still 1.25 seconds of animations during which the enemy gets free reign hitting you, and its not like they cant just move towards where you heartseekered. But yeah, I have seen a lot of thieves do it mid-combat, thinking it was safe. Only to eat a Grenade Barrage and get downed immediately. Poor guys, but they knew what they were getting into when they brought thief into 2v2.

    I think its 2 blinds
    The one the moment you cast it , and another after 1 sec .
    Also Heartseeker has a leep , that allow you to travel some distance and avoid the meele player

    The enemy has to walk into the field for the second blind. Or stay in it, I suppose. Its not that big though, so you can just walk out. And yeah, Heartseekr has a leap, but it takes quite some time to even get to that part, and even then they can just follow you with their own dash, like Rush.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Captain Kuro.8937 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Its not safe. At all. Its actually hilariously unsafe. Sure, you get one (!!!!) blind, but its still 1.25 seconds of animations during which the enemy gets free reign hitting you, and its not like they cant just move towards where you heartseekered. But yeah, I have seen a lot of thieves do it mid-combat, thinking it was safe. Only to eat a Grenade Barrage and get downed immediately. Poor guys, but they knew what they were getting into when they brought thief into 2v2.

    I think its 2 blinds
    The one the moment you cast it , and another after 1 sec .
    Also Heartseeker has a leep , that allow you to travel some distance and avoid the meele player

    The enemy has to walk into the field for the second blind. Or stay in it, I suppose. Its not that big though, so you can just walk out. And yeah, Heartseekr has a leap, but it takes quite some time to even get to that part, and even then they can just follow you with their own dash, like Rush.

    If heartseeker + Powder have a 1,25 sec cast time , wouldn't the enemy stay inside the blind field for the second blind too ?

    None can escape the Rush.Its the company favorite child .
    But wouldnt be better the spamm the heartseeker for its leap mechanic , rather than using Infiltrator's Arrow ? By doing Heartseeker , it gives you more time to restore Iniviative , while covering the same distance ?

    Dont Over Extent - Desolation

    BrB

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Captain Kuro.8937 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Captain Kuro.8937 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Its not safe. At all. Its actually hilariously unsafe. Sure, you get one (!!!!) blind, but its still 1.25 seconds of animations during which the enemy gets free reign hitting you, and its not like they cant just move towards where you heartseekered. But yeah, I have seen a lot of thieves do it mid-combat, thinking it was safe. Only to eat a Grenade Barrage and get downed immediately. Poor guys, but they knew what they were getting into when they brought thief into 2v2.

    I think its 2 blinds
    The one the moment you cast it , and another after 1 sec .
    Also Heartseeker has a leep , that allow you to travel some distance and avoid the meele player

    The enemy has to walk into the field for the second blind. Or stay in it, I suppose. Its not that big though, so you can just walk out. And yeah, Heartseekr has a leap, but it takes quite some time to even get to that part, and even then they can just follow you with their own dash, like Rush.

    If heartseeker + Powder have a 1,25 sec cast time , wouldn't the enemy stay inside the blind field for the second blind too ?

    None can escape the Rush.Its the company favorite child .
    But wouldnt be better the spamm the heartseeker for its leap mechanic , rather than using Infiltrator's Arrow ? By doing Heartseeker , it gives you more time to restore Iniviative , while covering the same distance ?

    Its a matter of speed. Heartseeker covers the same distance, but does so very slowly. Infiltrators Arrow on the other hand, being a shadowstep with a fast projectile speed is quite fast. Also, slopes. Heartseeker struggles with them, SB 5 lets you just teleport up inclines.

  • Moradorin.6217Moradorin.6217 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @God.2708 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Sylanna.1947 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    They also forgot the Tradeoff to add to FB, but these are insignificant details.

    It kinda has one. The virtues work differently between all three. It's just that they're way better for the elite specs.

    Now compare that to 1 endurance bar, tell me how they compare.

    Why dont you question why daredevil has better evades but also gain additional evae ... when other class have better evade but -1, instead of +1 ;)

    umm.. but DD has a tradeoff in swipe instead of steal. So yes, there's a tradeoff. FB has none.

    Swipe was made UNBLOCKABLE, which is a trade off. What he gave up for +1 evade AND 3 better evades on his choice??????????
    FB "trade off" that he lost normal virtues and gained tomes - doesnt mean trade off didnt happen in anet logic, tomes are basically +15 skills but who cares.
    Renegade still has no trade off too :)
    Also this thread isnt about "trade offs", feel free to make another one

    The ability to attack during the evade.

    This is SO MISSUNDERSTOOD. I forgive your ignorance because it a common miss conception. However, just to clarify AGAIN about Mirages ability to "Attack during evade and how its allegedly only Mirage"

    The fact is that Thief, Ranger, and most if not all other classes can also attack during an evade. evades are attached to many skills in the game for other classes. Thief I think has the most by far. For sure FAR more than Mesmer in any form.

    Also Mirages ability to attack during evade is the ambush attack. It IS the dodge. The ambush damage doesn't do kitten for damage without clones and also needs IH traited. With EM traited your clones WONT ambush and WONT do jack during dodge! WITH IH traited they will ambush (cause of the GM trait NOT Mirage cloak alone). Mirage cloak allows mesmer to move during evade SO DOES Normal Dodge. Anyone can use instant cast skills during any other action NOT only mirage or mesmer.

    The Trade off for Mirage Cloak is how the dodge behaves. Normal dodge you roll and move out of danger, however, with Mirage you dont dodge roll u gain Mirage cloak which gives the same 3/4 sec evade window but also allows you to move. That said, if you move backwards you are slow as kitten (unlike normal dodge) Mirage can easily get stuck in danger due to the different mechanic of the dodge. THAT IS THE TRADE OFF. YOU STAY IN AOE rings IN MELE RANGE.

    Basically, what I am saying is the real trade off for Mirage cloak is you gain not rolling when you dodge so you can still attack, however, you then find you have a harder time getting out of danger because you dont move out of the way of anything with Mirage cloak. The only way you move out of danger is to choose a direction and walk/run or use up a stun break (blink) or your elite (jaunt) unless you bring specific utility skills or specific weapon skills.

    The Trade off for Ambush damage on mirage is you lose the ability to bring a 3rd core traitline that would often add more to the build and give more advantage other than the fact that base weapons have been so badly nerfed that core damage in general is HORRIBLE. That said, the fact remains that choosing Mirage over other traits has its own trade off in the form of losing better trait lines. Its the only gain from Mirage is "Mirage Cloak." ITS the ONLY gain from choosing the traitline and espec. That's IT!