Necromancer Fractal/Raid Balance?

Doubt anyone relevant at Anet will read this, but are there any plans to balance Necromancers in Fractals and Raids so that we can at least compete with other dps options? It's pretty sad and it has been that way for quite some time now. I mean, our benchmarks are anywhere from 8k to 10k dps behind other classes. It's not like we're bringing amazing utility either. Even our support option is sub par due and only taken to try and carry pugs. It's just really annoying to see classes like Guardian that get to be god mode in every single game mode while Necromancers are getting the shaft here.

I still play Necromancer as much as I can, I make it into raids and what not still if I organize them myself, but holy crap I am tired of always being asked if I can switch classes to something else that would benefit the group better, or being asked to swap to dps because a better healer just joined the group. Enough is enough, throw us a bone here.

The problem with benchmarks is people always see the highest and compare to it. It's true that Necro's dps has always fallen behind, especially with Scourge, and it took years for Reaper to finally breach that 30k threshold. However, in a typical raid, 15-20k damage per dps is more than good enough to end the fight in a respectable time. I've been raiding on my Reaper since it hit that 30k threshold and never had any problems. I did go for power sword Weaver for a while, and am learning power Chrono as well, but I find that it is easier to maintain solid dps on my Reaper. Obviously that's because I am so used to Reaper. My point is this: YES it's very discouraging that necro is always at the bottom of the raid benchmark, and yes it is discouraging that there's a 10k difference between the highest dps and Reaper, however anything past 30k is good for raids. Not for ultra fast speed clearing, but for regular raids it's more than adequate.

Now for T4s....I dunno man, I find Reaper super good for it; good bursts, CC as a natural part of the rotation (and I use the raid burst build), enemy grouping as a natural part of the rotation, amazing cleave, naturally tanky and self reliant. Yes ok a good DH will obviously outdps you but that doesn't mean by proxy that your Reaper is useless. If anything Reapers are quite common in T4s, and good ones too. Heck even scourge still sees some use in T4s.

As for support; I find that with heal scourge I no longer use shades thanks to the recent nerfs to shade placement. It is much easier to just stick to the group and blast your barriers. Obviously this comes with the caveat that I'm missing out on shade traits like Blood as Sand (I use Harbinger Shroud so I don't miss out on any barriers from shade placement) so to each their own. I loved heal scourge and especially love it in wing 2. For fracs I have gravitated towards healbrand as support because obviously its brings far more to an experienced group. Heal scourge shines as an off healer and has hard group carrying potential, especially for exploring new content. The trick, I find, with heal scourge is to not think of it as a healing spec, but as a damage mitigation spec so that the healer and group as a whole will have a much easier time.

TL;DR: Necro is cursed to be at the bottom dps because of it's natural hardiness which actually counts for a lot in PvE, even end game content. However, it still does well enough to complete all end game content so people who enjoy playing necro can keep doing so. Heal scourge does super well as an off healer and helps with exploring new content (raids, T4s). In ANY game you're going to find elitist s c u m who will say "ERMEGAD YU DUNT DEELZ 40K DAYMAYG! YU SUK! GIT GUD! CHOOZ PROFEZON I LIK! KEK!!!"

It's relatively fine in fractals due to trash mobs fueling life force and in fractals with enemies pumping out boons it is more than decent. In most strikes and raids it's not so great due to life force and the low boons on enemies, it could use additional life force sources.As I posted in the other thread about classes doing 40K DPS on a stationary golem with minimal armor rating, unless your comp is perfect and people manage condi sword weaver / power chrono (which requires clones to be alive) rotations realistically you should use the 15K autoattack baseline.Reaper shroud = 25K just autoattacking (~15-16K on Greatsword) , which matches Holo Photon Forge and exceeds staff daredevil ~22K / power herald ~18K keeping in mind unlike the other classes in a real scenario the reaper shroud has higher quickness uptime in 5 man content

If you're not going for speedclear records then it's alright.

For strike missions such as boneskinner I have found full scourges with epidemic in trailblazers to be more or less foolproof, otherwise you have to get people to actually stack well or do torches. The new Forging Steel instance is also relatively decent for reapers.

Whenever I PUG, it's far more annoying to see a ranger on longbow at max range with no frost spirit or a Greatsword auto-ing mesmer at max range that doesn't even put out boons. I personally have never kicked anyone for being a necro and I think if you ask others it's most likely the same.

@Shaogin.2679 said:It's just really annoying to see classes like Guardian that get to be god mode in every single game mode while Necromancers are getting the shaft here.[snipe]if I can switch classes to something else that would benefit the group better, or being asked to swap to dps because a better healer just joined the group. Enough is enough, throw us a bone here.

Obviously I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but in non-CMs or Strikes (including Boneskinner) I've seen zero pushback against Power Repear, and Heal Scourge is often requested especially for Whisper and Bone Strike Missions.

To your comment about 'group benefit', I'll just use my morning T4 run as an example.

I joined a group with 2 Firebrands (1 was HB), 1 Daredevil, and 1 Holosmith. No Renegade, but whatever.

Thaumanova - the HB tried to solo the reactor room, but only made it about 75% of the way before dying over 2 attempts. I grabbed a core and jumped over. I activated the first core bubble, summoned Flesh Wurm - ported - went to shroud until that was depleted, then used Lich Form to carry me to the control room. I know that many professions and builds can solo the room (including Guardian), so it's not great feat - but I was still able to do it. Would the Thief or Engy have been able to? Didn't need to find out.

Aquatic Ruins - had the NPNG instability, and without a Renegade or Warrior in the party, I was the only source for boon strip/corrupt. If I had a condi DPS set I would have swapped to Scourge, but I instead went in with Nothing Can Save You (traited with Augury for lower cooldowns) and Well of Corruption (and wishing I could use Greatsword under water lol). Being able to strip Protection off the boss every time it came up was huge in preventing this fractal from taking much longer to complete. Neither of the Guardians were able to do anything about this instability, nor do I think either the Holo or Daredevil have anything they could do to strip boons (correct me if I'm wrong).

Maybe they out DPS'd me (I haven't gotten around to updating Arc yet), maybe they didn't. But if I wasn't there on my Necro, they would have had to repeat the Reactor room a 3rd time (maybe more) and the Jellyfish boss in Aquatic would have sucked hard. Sure sure, a Rev with Mallyx or a Spellbreaker could have done the same thing, but this party had neither, and while boon strip isn't a key part of what Reaper does, it remains part of the toolkit.

I started playing Reaper in fractals exclusively around January, as I'd gotten bored of playing Guardian all the time (ironic I guess), and it took me a while to learn about, and how to use the various tools in our kit. I think Guardian is like a swiss-army knife - seems they have a response to just about anything...but not everything as it turns out.

Reaper will fall behind on golems, sure, but most players in T4 LFGs don't hit the benchmarks for their classes anyways, so unless you're working towards CMs or Raids (no experience there), Reaper does fine. At the end of the day, the boss has to die - it doesn't matter if you're top of Arc or the bottom, you get the same loot. And I will take someone who plays a Reaper who is bottom on the benchmarks, but who knows the fights, uses CC and changes their utilities to suit the fight/instability, over a Sword Weaver who is constantly out of position, goes into downed state repeatedly, and falls well short of the DPS benchmark they are capable of hitting.

TLDR: Reaper is fine. If you enjoy it, play it, there is little reason for anyone to exclude it from most PvE content. Again, can't comment on raiding.

@ Turkeyspit, daredevil + holosmith both have boon rips but they aren't part of the typical build.Holosmith can slot mine kit which removes one boon via the toolbelt skill and one boon from utility slot. Most people don't run tools in PVE so they don't trait gadgeteer, so consider it baseline 1 boon removed. I usually just drop grenades for mine kit if the party has no boon rip and there's protection.

Daredevil running Trickery has Bountiful Theft which rips 3 boons using Steal. However in PVE it's typically Critical Strikes & Deadly Arts. There's a far larger change to a typical daredevil PvE build in that respect , but most PvP/WvW daredevils run trickery.

Rangers, guards (DHs / FBs), eles don't have boon rip.

That's why mesmer (boon rip on sword autoattacks , greatsword berserkers, arcane thievery, null field, on CC trait Vicious Expression, on shatter with Shattered Concentration, etc) , renegade (3 boon rip on mallyx's Banish Enchantment), and necromancer (well of corruption = 6, scepter 3 feast of corruption for condi scourge, Corrupt Boon, Nothing Can Save You =2 ,etc)/spellbreaker (boon rip on CC) are usually run.

A while ago I posted a thread that PvE enemies ought to have more boons to add legitimacy to scourge and even in 2020 it's still a legitimate suggestion.

@Infusion.7149 said:@ Turkeyspit, daredevil + holosmith both have boon rips but they aren't part of the typical build.Holosmith can slot mine kit which removes one boon via the toolbelt skill and one boon from utility slot. Most people don't run tools in PVE so they don't trait gadgeteer, so consider it baseline 1 boon removed. I usually just drop grenades for mine kit if the party has no boon rip and there's protection.

Daredevil running Trickery has Bountiful Theft which rips 3 boons using Steal. However in PVE it's typically Critical Strikes & Deadly Arts. There's a far larger change to a typical daredevil PvE build in that respect , but most PvP/WvW daredevils run trickery.

Rangers, guards (DHs / FBs), eles don't have boon rip.

That's why mesmer (boon rip on sword autoattacks , greatsword berserkers, arcane thievery, null field, on CC trait Vicious Expression, on shatter with Shattered Concentration, etc) , renegade (3 boon rip on mallyx's Banish Enchantment), and necromancer (well of corruption = 6, scepter 3 feast of corruption for condi scourge, Corrupt Boon, Nothing Can Save You =2 ,etc)/spellbreaker (boon rip on CC) are usually run.

A while ago I posted a thread that PvE enemies ought to have more boons to add legitimacy to scourge and even in 2020 it's still a legitimate suggestion.

Ah cool, thanks for the info. My playtime on DD and Engy respectively is pretty one-dimensional.

I switched to Mesmer for raids. I am sorry but Mesmser and Gaurdian DPS is just to great. Their sustain is also better in a raid environment. Shroud becomes problematic for healing as it is. I can easily do 5K more DPS on Guradian/Mesmer without having mastered the classes. It is that bad. After a week, I'm averaging about 6K more on my Memser in raid fights. I was also pushing the limits of Reaper as it was.

I still play Necro for Strike missions. They are much more forgiving, and the DPS doesn't matter as much. A decent Reaper will be fine.If you play your class well, you should be fine for T4. Just be prepared to get some flack for it. Some people will even compliment you when you do well because a lot of Necro's are not good at managing there lifeforce and properly timing there abilities.

Raids are where I draw the line.

Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

@"Shaogin.2679" said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

We have people justifying things being OP and do not believe in standardized benchmarks. Things continually get worse. The spread keeps growing every patch with Necro on bottom in standardized benchmarks.

@"Shaogin.2679" said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

The game isn't designed to need any class to compete' in PVE to begin with ... so there isn't anything to fix.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Shaogin.2679" said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

What a ridiculous statement. lmao

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Shaogin.2679" said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

That is normal, because Necro has too much sustainability to be made into a top tier DPS class.There's simply too little risk factors comparing to other classes when going into full DPS builds.

Let's rewind the clock back to the time before PoF, Power and and Conditon Reapers were basically spamming in every Fractal and raid, with automatic condition transfer and health regeneration, combined with high damage, turning every single game into brainless spam. It basically destroy sPvE to an extent (not that I didn't enjoy it).

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

What's ridiculous about it? Anyone can play whatever they want and be successful in this game, so what is being fixed if Anet changes DPS on Necro?

It's good to see you 'lmao' ... you're going to need a real good sense of humor if you think this is going to change after 8 years of being like this.

Hi everyone,

In the main professions thread, there is a post about the 9K-10K difference between classes based on raid encounter benchmarks. Guardian is usually on the top (or near) and Necro is usually at the bottom. I recommend keeping that post going. Talk about your concerns and how a balanced game would be better for everyone. The guy above me likes Necromancers being low, you can read all about it in that thread.

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Shaogin.2679" said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

In my experience this is not true. Guardian has much more sustain (both living and damage) for good players. You can block when needed. healers can always heal you and react. You shroud can not be used to absorb damage, because that just lowers your already non competitive damage even further. Using shroud with a sliver of live, just means most mediocre players will just die when it ends. H

Necro is a liability that does not buff others with sub part performance. Not buffing others with equal damage is still a short coming.

If you really care about balance, participate in the thread with 5.9K views. That will get more attention then a bunch of smaller threads.

@"Josiah.2967" said:If you really care about balance, participate in the thread with 5.9K views. That will get more attention then a bunch of smaller threads.

Objectively, it won't. Along the year there have been longer threads stating that the necromancer have subpar dps and it didn't do any good. Every single argument have been discussed over and over to the point that there is nothing new to say.

The necromancer's main defense mechanism (if not his only defense mechanism) is it's special mechanism which inherently prevent him from having a "pure" glass build and thus justify lower dps than "pure" glass build of other professions whose main defensive mechanisms are spread over optionnal weapons and utilities. Fact is that the necromancer cannot trad this inherent defense for offense, in fact the offensive build benefit from this defense that providentially shelter them while they dish out their A game.

The thing is that the necromancer's special mechanism make him a natural "tank", yet he doesn't have the tool to assume this role nor does he possess the extra support that would make him appaeling in this role.

The last point is that end game PvE mechanisms tend to nullify the necromancer's strengths. Boon corruption being mostly useless in an encounter where 10 players are bashing a single boss that seldom produce boons. "Soft" conditions effects being reduced to an abysmal level due to defiance. The poor balance of PvE condition output making it difficult to have a suitable environment for condition manipulation... etc.

There is a lot going on against the necromancer when it come to PvE. 80% of the root cause is a due to an inadapted design, the last 20% being from players just deadset on keeping this inadapted design yet crying over the fact that the dps potential isn't up to par with other profession's potential dps.

@Shaogin.2679 said:any plans to balance Necromancers in Fractals and Raids so that we can at least compete with other dps options?you can take 4 scourges and 1 support, and close cms+t4. This is still possible.

It's pretty sad and it has been that way for quite some time now. I mean, our benchmarks are anywhere from 8k to 10k dps behind other classes.it only virtual benchmarks in ideal world on golem.

I still play Necromancer as much as I can, I make it into raids and what not still if I organize them myself, but holy kitten I am tired of always being asked if I can switch classes to something else that would benefit the group better, or being asked to swap to dps because a better healer just joined the group. Enough is enough, throw us a bone here.Ofc you should and you must switch. I have class for wvw, class for spvp, class for fractals, class for dungeons, class for strikes .. This is great.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

People being happy to play their favourite class in raids with actual good people without feeling like you are dragging your friends down and getting higher killtimes?

It's good to see you 'lmao' ... you're going to need a real good sense of humor if you think this is going to change after 8 years of being like this.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

Hey, if you impose subjective conditions on the system that throws out all the available choices, that's simply a "you" problem. That combination of factors has too much subjectivity for Anet to ensure that can be fulfilled for every player ... instead they have done the more practical approach because this game isn't about placating EACH player ... a wide range of choice that covers as best as possible any players conditions.

If your subjective and numerous requirements to be happy playing the game can't be satisfied ... that's not something Anet can fix. The game wasn't designed to need higher kill times because of the low threshold for success in endgame, so of course DPS differences between classes doesn't manifest itself as a problem.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

Ok. I'll stop discussing with a stubborn whiteknight.

Do you even play the class and know how many flaws it has?Or do you even main any class to the extend, that makes you almost hate playing another class?

Why do you keep ignoring all those people asking for improvements.You kinda do the same thing btw. Adding subjective requirements, or at least guessing that thats, what anet does, by saying they only balance based on theme (which they obviously don't, if you look at other classes).

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

Good ... that just tells me you need more time to think about the fact that the game design doesn't need control individual class DPS because of players wanting faster kill times.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

Nope. It just says that I don't want to discuss with someone that never ever accepts other people's opinions.That's just a timewaste. And I got better things to do than that.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Wow, all these comments make it worse. Basically everyone is like, "Meh, it sucks and is bottom tier but it can still be played so whatever." Everyone just sounds so defeated, like they gave up caring about the game long ago.

Oh, I accept your opinion ... I just see that your opinion isn't based on how Anet intends the game to work. Again ... when was the last time you asked yourself why things work this way? You don't, because you the answer is one you don't want to accept.

Systems team balances on class flavor instead of actual trying to balance classes. That being said, reaper has alot of solo potential. It gives self might vul quickness and skill cd reduction. The problem is that it does not scale well in a group. That makes them good for break off roles, like q1 lamp.Scourge give epi who clears adds quickly and safely at range, and give alot of passive sustain to a group with its dps rotation. Blood scourge is broken with its carry potential. Five man rezes every 20 secs can allow groups to clear that otherwise shouldn't. I have pugged enough bonedaddy runs to observe that.Does necro need work, of course, i would love reaper to have traits that allow it to scale better in groups. Desicate defenses needs a buff to give more damage than souleater without the self heal. Onslaught should get the impossible odds treatment. A condi build with less group sustain and more damage would be nice.Unfortunately this forum is a bad place to put this feedback because people who do not raid will come in and hijacks these threads. I know who they are, so just ignore those trolls.

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Systems team balances on class flavor instead of actual trying to balance classes. That being said, reaper has alot of solo potential. It gives self might vul quickness and skill cd reduction. The problem is that it does not scale well in a group. That makes them good for break off roles, like q1 lamp.Scourge give epi who clears adds quickly and safely at range, and give alot of passive sustain to a group with its dps rotation. Blood scourge is broken with its carry potential. Five man rezes every 20 secs can allow groups to clear that otherwise shouldn't. I have pugged enough bonedaddy runs to observe that.Does necro need work, of course, i would love reaper to have traits that allow it to scale better in groups. Desicate defenses needs a buff to give more damage than souleater without the self heal. Onslaught should get the impossible odds treatment. A condi build with less group sustain and more damage would be nice.Unfortunately this forum is a bad place to put this feedback because people who do not raid will come in and hijacks these threads. I know who they are, so just ignore those trolls.

The 'people' that you claim hijack these raids do more than their share of raids playing how they want, EVEN with Necros, validating Anet's implementation of the game all the time. Choosing to ignore the reality of the game is not going to make your case for change.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Systems team balances on class flavor instead of actual trying to balance classes. That being said, reaper has alot of solo potential. It gives self might vul quickness and skill cd reduction. The problem is that it does not scale well in a group. That makes them good for break off roles, like q1 lamp.Scourge give epi who clears adds quickly and safely at range, and give alot of passive sustain to a group with its dps rotation. Blood scourge is broken with its carry potential. Five man rezes every 20 secs can allow groups to clear that otherwise shouldn't. I have pugged enough bonedaddy runs to observe that.Does necro need work, of course, i would love reaper to have traits that allow it to scale better in groups. Desicate defenses needs a buff to give more damage than souleater without the self heal. Onslaught should get the impossible odds treatment. A condi build with less group sustain and more damage would be nice.Unfortunately this forum is a bad place to put this feedback because people who do not raid will come in and hijacks these threads. I know who they are, so just ignore those trolls.

I see you all the time stalking the Necromancer forums. Every time I log on and see someone making cogent and valid arguments to give Necro a viable, decent group PvE build you swoop in and hijack the conversation while never once giving your opinion or ideas! The only time you said anything that was not argumentative was when you said the developers should move away from the shroud in order to be able to balance the Necro and give it more damage.

Please stop talking about what Anet wants, unless you are an Anet team member I don’t think you can speak for them, they have never once told us what exactly their plans for the Necro are. They keep talking about class flavour but fail to deliver on actual mechanics, the Reaper is supposed to feel like a slow but inevitable harbinger of death- that means slow but extremely damaging attacks with an emphasis on Chill. What we got was a slow, that’s it! The Reaper is slow but not dangerous, it does barely 30k in damage while many classes with a host of evades in their kit do so much more while providing useful utility.

If this game only had open world no one here will have a problem with Necro, because everything goes in the open world. It seems like Anet constantly tries to design classes around the open world and thus they run into problems with group content. GW2 is an MMO, group content is very important as it provides the important Multiplayer part.People simply want to feel like they are actually contributing to the team when they play their beloved Necro, since they don’t provide much group utility the only way to contribute is through DPS, if that is low we feel carried and those final rewards don’t feel earned.

Tell me this, an MMO has players create a persistent character and provides persistent rewards, this means that players are invested in their character. If the developer continues to shaft a class and is almost bent on pushing it into the ground, I don’t think those people will stick around.There is only so much I can do to convince myself that my Mirage is good enough as a main and invest my time and money in it when I see my Necro every time I log in, waiting to be played. I left the game for 2 years because of how difficult it was to use the Necro in group content, always looked at as a liability. I come back and things haven’t changed. Why do classes like the elementalist get to be top DPS and viable in all game modes at all times? Guardian?Anet should be grateful that all the Necro mains have been sticking around for as long as they have, still spending on the Gem store and harbouring hope that they will finally allow us to be useful in the game. I have never seen any other game where the developers are outright unwilling to give the players a decent spec to play their class, its time they realise they actually need players and that they did not make the game for themselves to play Mayor in their own Sim City.