Make reaper's shroud optional for more build variaty!

I love necro and I've been playing him for a while, but I have to say that reaper's shroud is so uniinteresting and boring to use. I really like core necro shroud, cause it makes you feel like a powerful mage, but I also love greatsword on necro. It would be really cool if I could use greatsword as a melee option and use core necro shroud as a range option. It would open up new builds and it would make necro players feel more like a necro.

Please just play another spec or even class then and leave us players that like the intended and well crafted reaper design alone.

Btw.: most players think core shroud is trash and needs a rework - and this means every single aspect: its design, its mechanic and its impact in fights.

Besides that: optional shrouds have been discussed already and these would cause balancing issues and eliminate intended tradeoffs.

Losing access to core shroud is one of the intended trade offs for reaper, they won't (and shouldn't) make it optional.

Then just stay core necro. I personally enjoy Reaper's Shroud a lot and truth be told, the reaper specialization was what made me so eager for HoT.

@RandoMarekCZ.5091 said:I love necro and I've been playing him for a while, but I have to say that reaper's shroud is so uniinteresting and boring to use. I really like core necro shroud, cause it makes you feel like a powerful mage, but I also love greatsword on necro. It would be really cool if I could use greatsword as a melee option and use core necro shroud as a range option. It would open up new builds and it would make necro players feel more like a necro.

Fun fact.. you actually can BUT! there is a big sacrifice to do it.

1. Make a Necro and unlock the Reaper spec
2. ONLY!! unlock the first Minor Proficiency trait Greatsword Proficiency!, leave all other Reaper traits locked.
3. Equip almost completely locked Reaper traitline on your necromancer.
4. Boom, you have a Necromancer with core Death shroud and a Greatsword.

This works with Scourge too, Shroud+Torch :) and other Elite Specs as well.But you have to sacrifice a whole traitline to do it so it's at best a gimmick build, however it could throw some people off in WvW or something if you come at them as a Greatsword wielding Reaper but then WTH!! Core Shroud! Wut!!!

When I did this with Scourge I found it quite amusing when I poped shroud in combat and some guy was like Wut!! a Scourge with shroud how?It's fun but giving up a whole traitline to use it really isn't worth it.

Both shroud work fine.

The problem is quickness, its a 50% modifier.

It makes reaper burst only, while core shroud cant make a competitive ranged power build, without making reapers explode.

Core shroud simply needs to be less clunky,the instant fear gone but long duration kept is the biggest fail ive seen since 2012.Cz aside the quickness trait, there is nothing worth taking beside the changed shroud, and its good that Anet is balancing around tradeoffs.

Core shroud is pretty bad though.

No life force gain on skill 1, jank mobility skill, Life Transfer is easily interrupted and really weak and Tainted Shackles is a rando Condi skill while the rest of core shroud's damage is power based (While if you wanted core shroud because of that condi skill for a Condi Reaper build, you wouldn't be running GS and so could justify going Condi Core anyway...)

At best you could try and get carried by Reaper's Onslaught. Only it wouldn't be as effective given that core shroud's auto attack is worse than Reaper. Even then, your gameplay wouldn't be great and would in fact be worse than Reaper (Since Reaper at least uses Soul Spiral for DPS which gets CDR from using auto attack chains, while core shroud would get max DPS by ignoring literally every skill and just spamming auto attack).

A better solution to the issue of "Boring shroud" gameplay would be looking for enhancements to Shroud interactivity (For both Core and Reaper), such as utility skills, better distribution of damage skills (I.e. Executioner's Scythe not sucking) and reduced number of ridiculous buffs while being in Shroud to facilitate more shifting in and out of shroud and less "Enter shroud, hit things for ~10 seconds, leave shroud, get max LF as fast as possible, repeat" (Or worse, with Perma-Shroud Reaper where you just sit in Shroud using auto attacks forever)

@Taril.8619 said:Core shroud is pretty bad though.

No life force gain on skill 1, jank mobility skill, Life Transfer is easily interrupted and really weak and Tainted Shackles is a rando Condi skill while the rest of core shroud's damage is power based (While if you wanted core shroud because of that condi skill for a Condi Reaper build, you wouldn't be running GS and so could justify going Condi Core anyway...)

I disagree. Core should isn't that bad and isn't far off from being real decent.You don't really need LF gain on the auto, it's has pretty decent range, just needs to cast a little faster.Mobility is janky but that's mostly a necro problem. Besides the #2 skill is far more than mobility. Just needs a faster cast and travel time.Life transfer isn't that weak. If we're talking PvP it has the same coeff as soul spiral , it's just needs to cast faster.Trained shackles is also pretty strong and the core shrouds kit can be specified to be either type of damage based on how the skills work.

Tl;Dr some small reductions in cast time would make core should feel better than it does but it's far from bad.

If you could reliably gain quickness on core shroud or if it had access to reapers onslaught it would be pretty insane.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:You don't really need LF gain on the auto, it's has pretty decent range, just needs to cast a little faster.

No LF gain on the auto, when Reaper has a lot of focus on getting really strong by being in Shroud making you want to be in Shroud for as long as possible is a significant downside.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Mobility is janky but that's mostly a necro problem. Besides the #2 skill is far more than mobility. Just needs a faster cast and travel time.

Oh yes, far more. It's also 2 stacks of bleed and a 3s chill. That's tons more relevant things than mobility! /s

It's really just the mobility and the Chill that the skill provides, with mobility being the biggest factor because it's the thing that Necro really needs in PvP (Meanwhile in PvE, the skill is pretty useless)

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Life transfer isn't that weak. If we're talking PvP it has the same coeff as soul spiral , it's just needs to cast faster.

Same power coefficient, but doesn't have the poison stacks on it, isn't a Whirl finisher and has a 50% longer cast time and can't be covered by Stab offered by Infusing Terror.

While in PvE, it has a lower power coefficient than Soul Spiral in addition to the above mentioned things.

Ergo, weak.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Trained shackles is also pretty strong and the core shrouds kit can be specified to be either type of damage based on how the skills work.

It's strong if enemies can't move away from you to break the tethers and stop the damage. Which, given Necro's low mobility and Core Shrouds janky mobility skill, isn't that difficult.

In PvE it's weak unless you're Condi. Its usable due to only requiring a 0.25s cast but it's not amazing (Especially given it doesn't scale with Quickness as a result) if you're a power build, which you generally will be if running Reaper.

Core shroud's kit can't really be specified to either type, especially not when running Reaper since Reaper inherently has bad Condi support. Maybe if Dhuumfire didn't have a CD then it plus Core Shroud 1 would be useful for applying Condi's (Otherwise you're looking at literally just Tainted Shackles as your only Condi source unless you count a laughable 2 stacks of an 8s Bleed from skill 2 every 6-8 seconds as worthwhile Condi damage which means your Shroud is only good once per 25-30s in a Condi build)

Though, if Dhuumfire didn't have a CD, then Reaper Shroud would still be better as it attacks every 0.5s baseline rather than 1s baseline like with Core Shroud (Also, those autos also reduce the CD of Soul Spiral allowing you to stack that Poison too and/or get Whirl Finisher procs in Poison/Fire fields)

TL;DRCore Shroud sucks compared to Reaper Shroud.

@Taril.8619 said:TL;DRCore Shroud sucks compared to Reaper Shroud.You're fine to have your opinion, mine differs.

@Kodama.6453 said:Losing access to core shroud is one of the intended trade offs for reaper, they won't (and shouldn't) make it optional.

I don't understand why people say this, I've heard it said for other professions as well. especs are a mechanic change not a trade off, unless core is better for some reason (cough cough mes cough).

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:Losing access to core shroud is one of the intended trade offs for reaper, they won't (and shouldn't) make it optional.

Losing part of or all of the previous mechanic / functionality to gain some new mechanic / functionality is the definition of a trade of. Lose one thing, gain another. Its why they had to go back and add more since a lot of especs were just mechanic creep.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Losing part of or all of the previous mechanic / functionality to gain some new mechanic / functionality is the definition of a trade of. Lose one thing, gain another. Its why they had to go back and add more since a lot of especs were just mechanic creep.

ok, but when you lose 10% and gain 90% how can that realistically be considered a trade off? is it just me and am I missing something here?

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Losing part of or all of the previous mechanic / functionality to gain some new mechanic / functionality is the definition of a trade of. Lose one thing, gain another. Its why they had to go back and add more since a lot of especs were just mechanic creep.

They aren't mutually exclusive. Something can be balanced and not have a trade off; something can have a trade off and not be balanced.

Anet are also very clear in what they mean by a trade off. People keep trying to put some other meaning to it though.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:Losing access to core shroud is one of the intended trade offs for reaper, they won't (and shouldn't) make it optional.

Well reaper shroud is a mechanic change, they replace the mid range death shroud by the close range reaper shroud.

The reason mechanic change doesn't mean a total replacement of the profession mechanism in player's mind is because ANet devs found themself in front of extremly rigid core mechanisms for some professions and simply let themself take on the easy path of "powercreep" by adding mechanics on top of the core mechanic for a few e-spec. They now try poorly to fix that (by integrating some added F5 into the core mechanic for example. chrono/soulbeast)

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:Losing access to core shroud is one of the intended trade offs for reaper, they won't (and shouldn't) make it optional.

Trade-offs aren't necessarily imbalanced though.

For example, imagine you have a $1 bill. Then you trade with someone for 4 quarters.

The trade off in this example is you no longer have a $1 bill, but now you have 4 quarters instead. The monetary value is the same at $1, but the usage of each type of currency is different (With 4 quarters you can provide exact change more easily. Meanwhile certain vending machines only accept bills)

In regards to E-Specs, the "Trade off" becoming a negative value occurs because in some cases the E-Spec's didn't really change a mechanic at all, they just added something on top of it and thus to try and limit how much power creep the E-Spec was ANet have tried to slap in some negative aspects to balance things out.

I.e. Druid simply gets the Celestial Avatar mechanic ontop of base Ranger pets. So they get -20% pet stats to try and put them more in line. Soulbeast simply got the Merge mechanic added on top of base Ranger pets. So they added in the inability to swap pets in combat to try and put them more in line.

In some cases, though, E-Spec mechanics are still just flat out better than Core. Such as is the case of Reaper, Mirage, both Guardian E-Specs, both Engie E-Specs, both Elementalist E-Specs and both Thief E-Specs...

Due to either accessing most, if not all, of the core class mechanic or having one that is a direct upgrade. (Mirage has Core Mesmer shatters, Engie still gets their F1-F4 skills untouched and the F5 skills they get replaced by the E-Spec unique skill are garbage anyway, Elementalists still get all of their Attunements, Thieves get improved Steal skills, Guardians get improved Virtues, Reaper gets better Shroud)

Arenanet did buff core shroud last year but it remains a hot mess.

My opinion on why there is no choice of shrouds when selecting the Reaper specialization is balance. Arenanet can easily adjust Reaper sustain by messing with Reaper Shroud skills. If Death Shroud were allowed as a choice for Reaper builds, then that would double the balance headaches for Reaper and affect core Necro balance, too. Same logic for Scourge.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:They aren't mutually exclusive. Something can be balanced and not have a trade off; something can have a trade off and not be balanced.

Anet are also very clear in what they mean by a trade off. People keep trying to put some other meaning to it though.

yeah I guess. not sure why I thought it meant something different for video games.

@Methuselah.4376 said:Then just stay core necro. I personally enjoy Reaper's Shroud a lot and truth be told, the reaper specialization was what made me so eager for HoT.

RShroud is the only truly amazing and interesting gameplay aspect/set of mechanics for the entirety of necromancer as a whole imho. It's also pretty much the only reason I bought HoT. Its release has been the single best content add-on of everything from the expansions.

If ANet had a good track record for gameplay balance I'd love to see elite specs decoupled from their weapons, but... there's no way they'd succeed with this and keep Reaper or GS intact.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Taril.8619 said:TL;DRCore Shroud sucks compared to Reaper Shroud.You're fine to have your opinion, mine differs.

When it comes to sheer damage output and utility, it's not opinion, it's objective fact. You're free to like core shroud better than Reaper Shroud of course, but that doesn't mean it's suddenly better than Reaper's Shroud when it comes to damage output. I like core shroud; it's tanky and can keep you alive in pvp through quite a lot but that's where it's advantage over Reaper's Shroud ends. Case in point: while running Reaper, your strongest attacks are in shroud, while running core, your strongest attacks (with the POSSIBLE exception of Shroud 1 on power builds) are out of shroud. That's not because your weapons/utilities suddenly become weaker or stronger based on the spec you take (granted GS is necro's best power weapon), but because Reaper's Shroud's damage is that much higher. Try it on the golem: as a Reaper your dps drops when leaving shroud while your (meager) dps rises when you leave core shroud.

@Methuselah.4376 said:When it comes to sheer damage output and utility, it's not opinion, it's objective fact. You're free to like core shroud better than Reaper Shroud of course, but that doesn't mean it's suddenly better than Reaper's Shroud when it comes to damage output. I like core shroud; it's tanky and can keep you alive in pvp through quite a lot but that's where it's advantage over Reaper's Shroud ends. Case in point: while running Reaper, your strongest attacks are in shroud, while running core, your strongest attacks (with the POSSIBLE exception of Shroud 1 on power builds) are out of shroud. That's not because your weapons/utilities suddenly become weaker or stronger based on the spec you take (granted GS is necro's best power weapon), but because Reaper's Shroud's damage is that much higher. Try it on the golem: as a Reaper your dps drops when leaving shroud while your (meager) dps rises when you leave core shroud.

Obviously but this is really besides the conversation or point I was trying to make

@RandoMarekCZ.5091 said:I love necro and I've been playing him for a while, but I have to say that reaper's shroud is so uniinteresting and boring to use. I really like core necro shroud, cause it makes you feel like a powerful mage, but I also love greatsword on necro. It would be really cool if I could use greatsword as a melee option and use core necro shroud as a range option. It would open up new builds and it would make necro players feel more like a necro.

Speak for yourself. Reaper is the only reason I think about coming back to play necro.

@"Methuselah.4376" said:Then just stay core necro. I personally enjoy Reaper's Shroud a lot and truth be told, the reaper specialization was what made me so eager for HoT.

^This.That What I do, like OP I like the "mage style" from the core shroud.But I like the fancy aoe we get with reaper shroud, so I just play time to time core or reaper and I'm fine.Core have less burst, but the sustain dmg and safety from the ranged 1 is very enjoyable sometime.Core is also better to farm in open, ranged who 2 shoot most mob are pretty convenient.

But, tbh, I still hope for a 3rd spe where we get back a ranged shroud option (plz no bow)

I don't get it ... it's already 'optional' ... just don't use it.