Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ?

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  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    We had a lot of Norn in Bjora and we'll see more Icebrood in the following episodes, what more do you want ?

    Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Good thing that's here in GW2 so that the story makes sense.

    This isn't an argument. by this logic the second Lord of the Rings movie should also include everything from the first one so people can just start at the second one and not be confused. Same with the second movie needing to also include everything from the first and second movies. That isn't how narratives work.

    It would be logical, if everyone in the second Lord of the Rings movie was utterly astounded about things that happened in the first one.

    Such is the case here, where every single NPC is shocked to learn that Glint had offspring. Including the exalted in Tarir.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    Again, this is speculation. Just because they've shown no desire, doesn't mean they haven't or can't.

    No one said they can't.

    You did. That was your entire argument literally 2 posts ago.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    Nothing about actually having children was made out to be the super unique Glint only thing.

    No one said it was.

    You did. Literally in your previous post.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    Except it was. Glint didn't forsee Zhaitan's death. Nor Mordremoth's death.

    Glint's whole plan was to kill all the Elder Dragons and replace them. So yes, she did foresee it, it was part of her plan. Hell, Aurene was meant to be taken to Tarir because she was meant to replace Mordremoth in the cycle.

    She didn't forsee it. She knew that they needed to die to be replaced, but she didn't see when they would die.

    Ergo, Vlast talking about Morty dying too soon.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    prematurely

    the egg didn't hatch prematurely.

    Oh, so it's even more conveniently timed hatching.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    So you're saying that the inquest was only necessary by way of needing to exist as targets to be awakened?

    Nope, wrong again. The Inquest was needed to have the technical knowledge to start the cycle in the first place. They didn't need to be awakened.

    The technical knowledge? Meaning, they could have been awakened and thus still retain their technical knowledge. Which is how Joko uses them. He doesn't have a bunch of living Inquest serving him. He has awakened inquest serving him.

    It's also what he alluded to when he captured Taimi and needed to get through the locked door and says that she can die and help him and the order doesn't matter, because awakened beings retain their knowledge.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.

    1. Braham
    2. Jhavi
    3. Weibe
    4. Freanir of Jormag
    5. Olar

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Everything there has to do with the origins of the sylvari, which was one of the primary focuses of HoT alongside Glint's Legacy and Mordremoth's invasion (or at least, was prompted to be and was instead made a footnote for some events). And they were all either cut content, teased content that was never addressed, or were pivotal questions about the sylvari's backstory and their relation to Mordremoth.

    And those questions are things asked by players for a long time, and some were even prompted by HoT, but at what point after HoT is it relevant for the game's narrative to return to those topics, like the origins of the Dream and why Mordremoth can access it but yet it tries to kill him by giving the PC a Wyld Hunt of that very goal?

    I can't really buy this argument. Fandoms tend to ask questions that are totally pointless all the time. The Star Trek fandom has a large group of people who are absolutely obsessed with trying to determine things like "how big is the ship" despite the fact there is no canonal information on the size of pretty much any ship or station in Star Trek, and even the makers of the shows themselves have admitted ship's scale changes based on how they want the scene to feel. Not to mention that the size of the ship is never really an issue in the shows themselves, making knowing how large they really are even more pointless.

    Things like the cave Ronan found the seed in are, 100%, absolutely, irrelevant to the Sylvari's origins, or any story involving them. No effort was made to ever make the cave seem seem to be anything but a cave. The only things that were ever emphasized were the strange seed, and the planet monsters guarding it, both of which got answers in HoT. Ronan could have found the seed in the middle of a steam somewhere deep in the Maguuma and nothing would change about the story because where he found it doesn't, and never, mattered. Any issue of finding it would result in a POI, and maybe a short quip from Sylvari characters about somehow feeling this is the place the seed was found.

    As for the Dream, Anet could literally shove revelations about the Dream at ANY point in the story, since the Dream is so much of a nonentity in the canon, insofar as hard information on what it is, that they could connect it to anything and have it make sense. Hell, they could tie it into some sort of primal force of the planet that is also revealed to have spawned the Spirits of the Wild and it would make sense because the Dream is THAT much of a not-thing in the story.

    Most probably though, we know that the Dragons have a hive mind like connection to all their minions, that allows them to know anything their minions know, and send out at least general knowledge on what the Dragon's will is. We also know that powerful champions of the dragons can use this hive-mind to give orders to lesser minions, and that, even after the dragon's death, even weak minion can still take advantage of this link to control very small groups of the most lesser of minions.

    With the Pale Tree/Sylvari's mental connection to Mordremoth being non-existent from the get go, the intrinsic hive mind within dragon minions(Sylvari) would have very done what the Borg in Star Trek do when disconnected from the main hive mind, aka create their own, with the Pale Tree as the hub. This hive mind being separate from Mordremoth's, but ultimately based on the hive mind his minions use, and the Sylvari's personalities being influenced by Ronan and Ventari, would have been what allowed Mordremoth to enter it(its based on his mental network after all), but would also serve to why it attacked Mordremoth, like an immune system, it detected a foreign entity within it, and fought back.

    The Pale Tree not having the same sort of direct power like Dragon Champions do would also explain why the Sylvari essentially get a random shotgun blast of information from it, instead of a flow of information controllable by the Pale Tree.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    1. I would not consider the White Mantle a "flimsy excuse to introduce Lazarus" in the first place. The White Mantle were their own 5-release long storyline (the three Forsaken Thicket releases + Episodes 1 and 4) that was foreshadowed throughout Season 2 (particularly in episodes 1 and 4 when we first entered Dry Top and The Silverwastes). Rather, I would say "Lazarus was a flimsy excuse to introduce Balthazar". And no, I would disagree with that being a plot device, because it doesn't exist solely to progress the plot forward - rather, it is the plot itself. The device that drives the plot forward would be, at best, the note on Caudecus's desk. Though I would consider such an argument rather flimsy, because there was already suspicion that Lazarus was a fake or otherwise lying in the first place due to the change in personality from history. It wasn't even really used as the be all excuse for antagonizing Lazarus in Taimi's Pet Project, so it was ultimately an irrelevant addition that merely altered the course of dialogue, rather than the course of events.

    Given that the story relevance was "Oh look, Lazarus our lord and saviour is back" before immediately being dumped and relegated to a filler episode involving Caudecus.

    I'd consider that a plot device. As it advanced the plot by giving a reason for "Lazarus" to enter the stage.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    2. Technically, the plot device there is the Eye of Janthir, as it is what drives the plot forward from "where's Balthazar" to "I found Balthazar" - the entire episode is basically a filler built around this plot device, which is mursaat related more than human related.

    The Shining Blade was a plot device to get us to the Eye of Janthir. It drove the plot from "Where's Balthazar" to the object that let us find Balthazar.

    It also happened to contain a lot of filler.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    4. Nope, confronting Balthazar is not a plot device, but the plot climax. A climax does not drive the plot forward, but usually serves as the conclusion before the epilogue.

    Balthazar as a whole has been a plot device on many occasions.

    Initially, it's when he was posing as Lazarus and then being all shifty right before stealing Omadd's Machine, this could be considered in of itself the plot, but up until this point the plot had been "We gon smash the dragons" and this served to stall that plot by putting us on a track of filler (Which later caused Taimi to be another plot device in finding out about the consequences of killing the dragons and thus change the plot from "We gon smash the dragons" to "We gon save the dragons")

    Then there was the first confrontation in PoF, where all he did was beat us up and kill Vlast just to get us to go to Glints Lair.

    Then there was the second confrontation where he killed us. Serving to just advance the plot via letting us talk to Joko and thus get us onto gaining the awakened army.

    Finally there's his entire existence in the story at all. Which only serves as a means to get Kralkatorrik to reawaken and get us back to the original plot before this interlude with Balthazar, which is dealing with the dragons.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    In the future, please learn what literary terms mean, and don't use "plot device" as a catch-all term for any technique in literary writing. In your post, you have confused exposition, buildup, narrative, filler, and and climax with "plot device". A plot device is a character or object within a story who's sole purpose is to drive the plot forward after reaching a hit of stagnation in the narrative.

    A plot device is anything that causes advancement of the plot.

    This is irregardless of if the narrative has hit stagnation or not, or even if said device is integral to the entire story. For example, the One Ring in Lord of the Rings is a plot device, even though literally the entirety of the saga is about the journey to destroy it.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And, as mentioned by Sajuuk, Aurene is not "a random egg". Replay Season 2 and Heart of Throns, and it is firmly established to be the last of Glint's eggs - Glint, who was a scion and champion of Kralkatorrik that was purified by the Forgotten (per Arah dungeon and Edge of Destiny novel, also re-established in Season 2, Heart of Thorns, Season 3, and Path of Fire). The only other egg of Glint's that survived long enough to hatch was Vlast's, hence why Balthazar goes after Vlast first.

    It is "a random egg"

    Since its entire foundation was "Apparently there's still an egg left" leading into "Oh look, here's the egg"

    It's one thing for Caithe to have a Wyld Hunt to protect the egg and get it to Tarir, but that entire exposition was done AFTER we'd already stumbled upon it.

    Before that, was it common knowledge that Glint had an egg remaining? No.
    Was anyone actively looking for the egg? No.
    Was anyone aware of the eggs existence? Ogden, though he wasn't making any perceptible attempts to do anything about it.

    It was just an "Oh, by the way, an egg exists. Probably key to the survival of the planet. Have fun now!" and then getting the egg (Well, with some filler involving Caithe's backstory in between)

    Cat: Meow.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Before that, was it common knowledge that Glint had an egg remaining? No.
    Was anyone actively looking for the egg? No.
    Was anyone aware of the eggs existence? Ogden, though he wasn't making any perceptible attempts to do anything about it.

    Define "common" knowledge. Ogden, the Zypherites, and the Exalted, all knew of Glint's Egg, and had a plan to bring it to Tarir. Thats a fair number of people. Vlast knew also.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.

    1. Braham
    2. Jhavi
    3. Weibe
    4. Freanir of Jormag
    5. Olar

    What is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.

    1. Braham
    2. Jhavi
    3. Weibe
    4. Freanir of Jormag
    5. Olar

    What is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

    Define "relevant" then, otherwise any non-generic Norn is relevant.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.

    1. Braham
    2. Jhavi
    3. Weibe
    4. Freanir of Jormag
    5. Olar

    What is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

    Define "relevant" then, otherwise any non-generic Norn is relevant.

    Character that exist as part of the world, with its own goals, ideas and personality that the reader or the player in this case, would care to remember since they add to the story and can't be replaced with any other random blank character.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.

    1. Braham
    2. Jhavi
    3. Weibe
    4. Freanir of Jormag
    5. Olar

    What is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

    Define "relevant" then, otherwise any non-generic Norn is relevant.

    Character that exist as part of the world, with its own goals, ideas and personality that the reader or the player in this case, would care to remember since they add to the story and can't be replaced with any other random blank character.

    What the player care to remember is up to each player, so it's one of the most unreliable criteria. I don't care about humans in RPG and would be unable to cite more than an handful of humans from GW2.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    I've generally liked the Norn representation in Icebrood Saga thus far. We have already

    • Gotten more background on Braham's failed attempt to kill Jormag, and what happened to the group he went with.
    • Killed the Fraenir, the highest ranking of the Svanir.
    • Had Jhavi lead a large attack on Drakkar, and defeat the beast in combat, earning her and her family some measure of revenge for what the creature did to them.
    • Learned what happened to the lost Spirits of the Wild, who stayed behind to keep Jormag at bay, and have, at least temporarily, freed them from Jormag's influence.
    • Interacted with both Raven and Wolf.
    • Gotten some more Asgeir lore, and even gotten a look at some echo of him via the Raven lens.

    Just need some Bear and Snow Leopard time, maybe some "shocking" reveal behind what the Spirits of the Wild actually are, and to defeat Jormag and thus break the Icebrood and Svanir's backbone.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I can't really buy this argument.

    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I do agree that fandoms tend to ask questions that are ultimately not necessary or even pointless, but those, imo, are neither. Sure, you can have a plot without (as we have seen), but I would argue that answering those questions in the relevant plots would have served to enhance the plot - answering them now would feel tacted on and done for patching holes and/or fanservice of sorts, but if it was done during HoT, it would have served as potentially fun revelations.

    One thing I think is the main difference between your and my opinion is that you're taking the topics at a bare-bones face value, and not seeing the potential behind the exploration of those topics. You had the same kind of viewpoint with plots and theories like Renegades being financed by Bangar (which even got confirmed and, despite being a footnote, expanded the initial distrust of Bangar and more firmly established Bangar's mentality and viewpoint - the same thing with making Ajax to be his son, ultimately not needed for the plot, but it adds so much to the characters involved and events around them), Drakkar being Jormag's scion and a pivotal role in Icebrood Saga, and other similar past discussions between us.

    Kept at the bare bones face value, you're completely correct - adding a simple cave of seeds adds nothing. But that very cave of seeds could have been used to explore some more history of the previous dragonrise and the actions of, say, the Forgotten, exploring lore that otherwise wouldn't have been added, confirming how the Pale Tree got purified, and even expand the Pale Tree (and the other seeds) into potential roles of Glint's Legacy (which would make perfect sense - the Pale Tree knew to get the egg to Tarir, and showed us this; but how did she know? it remains unanswered, just like Ogden's comment of "There are those who have taken interest. I had some warning that you might be calling." in Hidden Arcana, which may or may not relate to Glint's Legacy).

    They could have used one lore question that's been nagging players since 2007, and used it to expand the worldbuilding tenfold. Without even adding much - all it needed, as a singular event, or a PoI with some interactive objects.

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Given that the story relevance was "Oh look, Lazarus our lord and saviour is back" before immediately being dumped and relegated to a filler episode involving Caudecus.

    I'd consider that a plot device. As it advanced the plot by giving a reason for "Lazarus" to enter the stage.

    Caudecus wasn't really a filler episode. He had been one of the main sub-plots for quite some time, unlike Lazarus. The White Mantle schism, the Krytan civil war - these were the main plot.

    Season 3 was running three plots concurrently - Jormag+Primordus rising, the Krytan civil war, and Balthazar's return. Episode 6 was the only filler episode.

    The Shining Blade was a plot device to get us to the Eye of Janthir. It drove the plot from "Where's Balthazar" to the object that let us find Balthazar.

    It also happened to contain a lot of filler.

    The Shining Blade was a filler plot that was furthered by the Eye of Janthir. They wouldn't have gotten involved without the Eye of Janthir and our involvement with them was pushed forward by the Eye of Janthir.

    Balthazar as a whole has been a plot device on many occasions.
    -snip rest-

    I don't think plot device means what you think it means.

    (P.S., Kralkatorrik didn't "reawaken" - he was always awake and active)

    -snip rest for length-
    It's one thing for Caithe to have a Wyld Hunt to protect the egg and get it to Tarir, but that entire exposition was done AFTER we'd already stumbled upon it.
    -snip rest for length-

    I wasn't talking about Caithe's supposed Wyld Hunt by Mordremoth. I was talking about the vision given to us by the Pale Tree at the end of The World Summit, before we found the egg - before that moment, all we knew was "the Master of Peace is traveling alone for some important reason". We had hints of the egg at that point, but it was the Pale Tree's vision which revealed that crystal orb.

    I think you need to replay Season 2, because it's pretty clear you're misremembering the order of events.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.

    1. Braham
    2. Jhavi
    3. Weibe
    4. Freanir of Jormag
    5. Olar

    What is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

    Techncially, you said "any relevancy" and they all have some relevancy to the plot:

    Weibe is present to maintain Jora's Keep from further Svanir attacks after the keep was wiped out by Olar's betrayal. He is constantly counteracting the Fraenir of Jormag's blizzards and abuse of Raven's magic, so that the Vigil (and by extention, the Commander and co) can establsih a foothold in the area.

    The Freanir of Jormag, besides being revealed as the one who prevented us from going after Bangar at the end of Bound by Blood, is the one who orchestrated the slaughter of Jora's Keep, the kidnapping of Jhavi and Almorra, and ultimately indirectly caused the death of Almorra (yes, it was later revealed to be Bangar and Ryland, but that couldn't have happened without the Fraenir directing the Sons of Svanir in Bjora Marches).

    Olar, a former member of Braham's Destiny's Edge, betrayed the others and worked with the Sons of Svanir to slaughter Jora's Keep. He was the one who captured Jhavi and Almorra, leading to the Commander being lured into the region by Jormag after Almorra's death. Without Olar, the entire plot of Episode 1 couldn't have happened, since he was the reason Jora's Keep could be wiped out through the Freanir's planning.

    I'd say they were all very important to the plot of episode 1, even if they had a lack of screen time. Without their presence and roles, the reasoning for events occurring would all have to be changed.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.

    1. Braham
    2. Jhavi
    3. Weibe
    4. Freanir of Jormag
    5. Olar

    What is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

    Techncially, you said "any relevancy" and they all have some relevancy to the plot:

    Weibe is present to maintain Jora's Keep from further Svanir attacks after the keep was wiped out by Olar's betrayal. He is constantly counteracting the Fraenir of Jormag's blizzards and abuse of Raven's magic, so that the Vigil (and by extention, the Commander and co) can establsih a foothold in the area.

    The Freanir of Jormag, besides being revealed as the one who prevented us from going after Bangar at the end of Bound by Blood, is the one who orchestrated the slaughter of Jora's Keep, the kidnapping of Jhavi and Almorra, and ultimately indirectly caused the death of Almorra (yes, it was later revealed to be Bangar and Ryland, but that couldn't have happened without the Fraenir directing the Sons of Svanir in Bjora Marches).

    Olar, a former member of Braham's Destiny's Edge, betrayed the others and worked with the Sons of Svanir to slaughter Jora's Keep. He was the one who captured Jhavi and Almorra, leading to the Commander being lured into the region by Jormag after Almorra's death. Without Olar, the entire plot of Episode 1 couldn't have happened, since he was the reason Jora's Keep could be wiped out through the Freanir's planning.

    I'd say they were all very important to the plot of episode 1, even if they had a lack of screen time. Without their presence and roles, the reasoning for events occurring would all have to be changed.

    That is basically grasping at straws, and that is my point, they are not relevant as a whole to game world. Norn are irrelevant for the most part of the game, even though their whole shtick is making their glorious legend, one would think there should be more reacquiring Norn characters throughout the story but eh. The Icebrood Saga is supposedly the big culmination of the Norn main story, where the spotlight is on them, but all they get is Braham and Jhavi(as exposition npc), a norn shaman that exist as another exposition tool and number of henchmen, which we are told that are scary after the fact.
    Most of the Bjora story feels like the core story line, where characters exist for a story mission or 2 and then are discarded, and i thought the story has moved on from that.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    That is basically grasping at straws, and that is my point, they are not relevant as a whole to game world.

    Neither is Malice, Efram, or even Smodur. Or 99% of the charr characters in any of the episodes. I mean, by your skewed definition of relevant ("the player in this case, would care to remember since they add to the story") then there are only two relevant charr in the entire game: Rytlock and Rox. And they'd only be relevant because they have been part of the plot for so long that players can't not remember them.

    But Malice, Efram, Smodur, the Steel warband, the Cache champions from the PS - they're all "not relevant as a whole to game world" and in the case of the latter two, "generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play" - at least in the same level of scope as Weibe, the Freanir, and Olar. I would disagree that those three "stopped existing as soon as they were put in play" because, like Joko, they left lasting impacts that continued after death in the narrative.

    But the thing is, Weibe, Fraenir, and Olar are all "character that exist as part of the world, with its own goals, ideas and personality" and "can't be replaced with any other random blank character."

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    One thing I think is the main difference between your and my opinion is that you're taking the topics at a bare-bones face value, and not seeing the potential behind the exploration of those topics.

    This is exactly the reason why I take them the way that I do. Most "potential" lore exploration people think of the same exact same kind of unrealistic stuff people made up about Lazarus and Joko.

    Your comment about the seed cave is exactly what I am referring to. Ronan made no mention of anything being in the cave beside the seed and the plant monsters. Why would there be ANYTHING related to the Forgotten there at all? Same thing about the previous dragon rise. Its a cave, with some seeds, and some Modrem in it, and again, Ronan made no mention of there being anything in the cave besides the seeds and the plant monsters. Why would anything from the past dragon rise have survived there at all besides the creatures themselves? If they want to explore something like the last dragon rise they should do so in a manner that doesn't conflict with Ronan's stated experiences. The cave is not the place to do it, and trying to shove the cave into it just raises more questions then it answers due to its not matching up with what we have already been told about the cave.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    the Pale Tree knew to get the egg to Tarir, and showed us this; but how did she know? it remains unanswered,

    She knew the egg needed to be taken to a Golden Place she saw in a vision that she gave you also.
    -How did she get the vision? Same way she gets all the others, the Dream.
    -What is the Dream? The Sylvari's dragon minion ESP network that has been detached from the Dragon it originally stemmed from.
    -Why would it have knowledge of that? Same way it does anything else, the Dragons are intrinsically tied to the Mists(as Aurene mentions when we are at the EoTN) The Dream touches the Mists which touch everything.
    -How did the Pale Tree get purified? Same way Mawdrey did. In fact, I am almost certain the whole point of the Mawdrey collection was to tell us how the Pale Tree was purified, without having to beat us over the head with a verbal explanation. We took a Mordrem seed, and grew it ourselves, and it results in a plant lifeform that isn't hostile or connected to Mord's influence. Ronan and Ventari did the same thing to the Pale Tree, boom. Explanation.

    And i've been advocating turning the Pale Tree into a ED replacement for awhile now. We just need Taimi to whip up some sort of giant Dragon energy conductors and jam it into her roots, and start filtering the magic in till she gets the hang of it.

    edit
    I also just though of something else. The Pale Tree's story mirrors that of Aurene's immensely. Someone took something directly spawned from an Elder Dragon's "line" so to speak, they formed a connection with it by planting/hatching it and raising it, and both entities turned out "purified" as a result. We know that being severed from an Elder Dragon's mental connection isn't enough on its own, as Glint didn't turn good until she was not only freed from it, but until she read the minds of mortals, and grew to sympathize with their cause. And the bond between mortal and "Dragon" being what allows Aurene to resist temptation/corruption has been a major plot point thus far, likely explaining the Pale Tree/Sylvari's ability to resist as well. This would also be further supported by the Maydrey collection.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    This is exactly the reason why I take them the way that I do. Most "potential" lore exploration people think of the same exact same kind of unrealistic stuff people made up about Lazarus and Joko.

    Except those villains were underplayed - and to argue otherwise is really silly, especially in Lazarus' case, who was literally filler.

    Your comment about the seed cave is exactly what I am referring to. Ronan made no mention of anything being in the cave beside the seed and the plant monsters. Why would there be ANYTHING related to the Forgotten there at all?

    Because it is only the Forgotten who knew how to purify dragon minions, and what little we know of Ronan's account (all third hand btw) also states that he rushed out of there with the seed - he didn't explore.

    Same thing about the previous dragon rise. Its a cave, with some seeds, and some Modrem in it, and again, Ronan made no mention of there being anything in the cave besides the seeds and the plant monsters.

    The fact it has what you speculate is mordrem is rather proof that it would have something to show. Why would there be mordrem guarding a cave of purified seeds?

    If they want to explore something like the last dragon rise they should do so in a manner that doesn't conflict with Ronan's stated experiences.

    What stated experiences? There's practically nothing beyond "Ronan stumbled upon a cave that had giant seeds and "terrible plant creatures". It does not establish that was all there was in the cave. It does not establish those plant creatures were mordrem. It does not establish that those plant creatures couldn't communicate or were hostile.

    You're now making a lot of assumptions on the cave that we simply do not have the evidence to support.

    She knew the egg needed to be taken to a Golden Place she saw in a vision that she gave you also.

    And in no way is this ever stated. We do not know the limitations of the Pale Tree's knowledge of Tarir, nor do we know that it was a vision she had. She gave us a vision, but that doesn't mean that she had the vision.

    -What is the Dream? The Sylvari's dragon minion ESP network that has been detached from the Dragon it originally stemmed from.

    This is actually highly suggested to be incorrect. Even Mordremoth was only abusing the Dream - it did not originate from him.

    -How did the Pale Tree get purified? Same way Mawdrey did. In fact, I am almost certain the whole point of the Mawdrey collection was to tell us how the Pale Tree was purified, without having to beat us over the head with a verbal explanation. We took a Mordrem seed, and grew it ourselves, and it results in a plant lifeform that isn't hostile or connected to Mord's influence. Ronan and Ventari did the same thing to the Pale Tree, boom. Explanation.

    Mawdrey was "purified" by multiple generations being exposed to a variety of exotic magic that has known anti-dragon minion qualities, such as Foefire magic. Honestly, Mawdrey is a huge kitten contradiction in of itself (not uncommon for sylvari lore tbh), but it is firmly established that Ventari and Ronan had no exotic magic or purification rituals and it is firmly established that Malyck's tree is also purified (one seed being purified outside of the cave? reasonable; two seeds? too large of a coincidence), and it is firmly established multiple times even that dragon minions cannot be purified by simply educating and growing a dragon minion.

    That's simply not how it works.

    If it was, then there was no need for Grymm Svaard to kill his brother who instantly turned on his friends and family the moment he became a dragon minion; if that was the cave, then Sierran's and Trahearne's incident with the risen gorilla wouldn't have happened; if that was the case, then Jora speaking to Svanir would have brought him back to the light; if that was the case then dozens of events and story instances taking place in Orr would be explicitly contradicted.

    Dragon corruption is not the Dark Side of the Force. You cannot redeem dragon minions like you can redeem Sith; no amount of Lukes would turn a Mordrem or Branded or whatever Darth Vader to the Light Side.

    Besides, "convincing them to turn sides" is not what purifying means in this context. Purifying is the active act of removing the enslavement of their individual will so that people can then convince dragon minions to be jolly good fellows again.

    I also just though of something else. The Pale Tree's story mirrors that of Aurene's immensely.

    It doesn't mirror Aurene's story at all. It's completely different.

    Aurene was never corrupted, for starters - nor was Vlast. And this seems to be something you ignored from my previous post.

    If the Pale Tree's story mirrors any other story, it is Glint's. But fun fact: Glint was purified by a powerful and extensive ritual, not through the power of love and friendship BS you're convinced it of.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Your comment about the seed cave is exactly what I am referring to. Ronan made no mention of anything being in the cave beside the seed and the plant monsters. Why would there be ANYTHING related to the Forgotten there at all? Same thing about the previous dragon rise. Its a cave, with some seeds, and some Modrem in it, and again, Ronan made no mention of there being anything in the cave besides the seeds and the plant monsters. Why would anything from the past dragon rise have survived there at all besides the creatures themselves? If they want to explore something like the last dragon rise they should do so in a manner that doesn't conflict with Ronan's stated experiences. The cave is not the place to do it, and trying to shove the cave into it just raises more questions then it answers due to its not matching up with what we have already been told about the cave.

    The whole premise of the Arah explorable paths is finding artifacts and records from the previous dragonrise, in a location where an Elder Dragon and its minions have been actively seeking to destroy them, either for strategic reasons or just for food - and that's without considering the possibility that the seeds were placed there after Mordremoth went to sleep. And as Konig said, with Ronan having been chased out, he probably didn't have the opportunity to leisurely explore the place for clues.

    There's no reason, apart from development time and resources, that ArenaNet couldn't have included the cave, and an event or two investigating it, in order to shed more light on sylvari origins in the expansion that was all about sylvari origins. If the seed was purified by the Forgotten, then we know the Forgotten aren't afraid to leave long-lasting records or other signs of their passing behind: there could have been a plaque that explains what they did, a miniature Altar of Glaust, or a few other artifacts left behind. Perhaps the cave could have been reclaimed by Mordrem by the time we get to it, and the other seeds grown into Blighting Trees, but there would have been storytelling potential there.

    Or if it wasn't the Forgotten that did it, there could have been signs of whoever did in there. Maybe the plant guardians were Oakhearts set there by the druids.

    Alternatively, if the scenario was one where any changes to the Pale Tree happened somehow after being removed from the cave, that could also have been shown. We could have an event chain where the cave is a nursery for Blighting Tree seeds and seedlings until a suitable permanent planting location is found for them, and sometime during the event chain, a sylvari has the shocking realisation that this is the cave.

    Instead, the Pale Tree having been purified is (apparently, I haven't got my copy yet) mentioned casually in the art book. Given ArenaNet's preference for the game to be the primary source, this probably means that they're just not planning to go back. Personally, I have a suspicion that it might have been the golden cave at the end of Season 2 (with Ronan having entered via a different route than the door, back during a time when the region was still the Silverwood), but we didn't get the opportunity to explore that in detail either.

    And this is just one example. ArenaNet themselves have acknowledged that there was a lot that had to be left on the cutting room floor simply because they ran out of time. And it shows. The Heart of Thorns story pretty much has the beats that have to be there for the story to make sense or to set up the plot moving forward and... not much else.

    Of course, to bring this back to the topic, this does not mean that just because there were a lot of missed opportunities with the sylvari, that the norn should also be neglected in the context of a storyline focused around Jormag and the northern Shiverpeaks. Two wrongs don't make a right, after all, and ArenaNet has hopefully learned some lessons since then.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    If the Pale Tree's story mirrors any other story, it is Glint's. But fun fact: Glint was purified by a powerful and extensive ritual, not through the power of love and friendship BS you're convinced it of.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    There's no reason, apart from development time and resources, that ArenaNet couldn't have included the cave, and an event or two investigating it, in order to shed more light on sylvari origins in the expansion that was all about sylvari origins. If the seed was purified by the Forgotten, then we know the Forgotten aren't afraid to leave long-lasting records or other signs of their passing behind: there could have been a plaque that explains what they did, a miniature Altar of Glaust, or a few other artifacts left behind. Perhaps the cave could have been reclaimed by Mordrem by the time we get to it, and the other seeds grown into Blighting Trees, but there would have been storytelling potential there.

    I think both of you have gotten so hung up on the ritual that you have missed the point of it.

    As mentioned in "Hidden Arcana" and later expanded upon in "Crystalline Memories", all the ritual did was allow Glint to think for herself. She didn't turn good because of it. In fact, she stayed loyal to Kralk for some time after. It was only after using her mind reading powers to hear the thoughts of the other races that she switched sides. The point of the ritual is to free an enslaved minion's mind so it has the CHANCE to turn good. Actually being good is based on sympathy.

    Here's the thing though... the Pale Tree was a seed, seeds don't have minds to be enthralled, they are just seeds. The seeds could have turned into a Blighting Tree, had Mordremoth been awake to direct it so, but he wasn't. The Pale Tree wouldn't need the Forgotten's Ritual because it never had a mind to be enthralled, much less a mind needing to be un-enthralled. And its also explicitly stated that the Grove is far enough away from Mordremoth that its voice barely makes it out that far, which is why the Sylvari there didn't turn when Mordremoth awakened. So it never had a risk of being corrupted like Svanir was despite Jormag being asleep. All the Pale Tree would need is to develop the same sympathy Glint and Aurene needed to, which Ronan and Ventari provided.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    This is actually highly suggested to be incorrect. Even Mordremoth was only abusing the Dream - it did not originate from him.

    That is literally what I just said Konig.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Of course, to bring this back to the topic, this does not mean that just because there were a lot of missed opportunities with the sylvari, that the norn should also be neglected in the context of a storyline focused around Jormag and the northern Shiverpeaks. Two wrongs don't make a right, after all, and ArenaNet has hopefully learned some lessons since then.

    There's really not much left needed to be expanded upon. As I listed out earlier, by this point in the IBS we have already

    • Gotten episodes around Wolf and Raven, and learned our "lessons" from them.
    • Learned what happened to the Lost Spirits of the Wild, and, at least temporarily, freed them from Jormag's influence
    • Learned more about Asgier's battle with Jormag, and the "shocking" truth behind it, and the Norn's movement south
    • Had Javi lead an attack on Drakkar, and beat the beast in combat, earning her family its much needed revenge
    • Killed the Fraenir, the highest of the Svanir
    • Learned about Braham's failed attempt to kill Jormag, and the group he went with.

    At this point we just need Bear and Snow Leopard based episodes(and maybe something with Owl somehow), and for Braham to fulfill his role as Asgeir 2.0, which Anet is heavily setting him up to be, and then Anet will have fulliled the needed Norn lore. Which, given how many episodes we have left for IBS(not a lot), they could do that, and finish up the charr civil war plot, just in time for the final battle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    Your analysis of the ritual is correct - it allows the cleansed creature to make their own choices, rather than being forced to be loyal to the dragon.

    However, there is no evidence to your assumption that dragon minions that only become aware when both their master and all champions of their master are fully asleep lack this forced loyalty. Every instance of a dragon minion that existed while the dragon was asleep - Drakkar, the Great Destroyer, minions created or converted by either - has been loyal to the dragon that created them. Except for Glint, who explicitly went through a ritual to grant her free will, and the Pale Tree, where the cause of her independence was left unspecified... until, apparently, recently.

    If the art book specifies that the Pale Tree was cleansed in the past, then that answers it. Every independent dragon minion that we know of would then have been either cleansed, or the result of the dragon outright dying rather than simply going to sleep (and the latter seems rare enough - we had the giant grub in Siren's Landing, but all the other "Unchained" still seem to be pretty much universally hostile).

    But here's the point that you seem to be missing: If ArenaNet had taken the opportunity to let us explore the cave sometime during, just before, or just after Heart of Thorns, they could have answered these questions with regards to the Pale Tree and her origins back then, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. As is, I'm pretty sure that ArenaNet has moved on to other parts of the story and I don't think there's much prospect of going back to the jungle any time in the next few years if at all - the closest we're likely to get is the southern Verdant Brink region. Casually dropping it into the art book seems to be an implicit admission that they knew it was something that people wanted to know that they might never actually get around to putting in the game directly - because the best time to have done so has passed.

    With respect to the context in which this discussion started, it doesn't really matter which side is right. The point is that it's still a point of contention years after the sylvari-themed storyline was done and dusted.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    I do hope we'll see more recurring norn characters besides Braham and Jhavi in the saga as the story progresses. While we've had some intriguing one-offs like Olar, Torrin and the Fraenir in the story (and Weibe in open world meta; I'd love to see the other havrouns as well as Bear's new havroun in the saga too), I'm missing the involvement of our norn friends from the three orders as well as the Whitebear family who now have an even bigger stake than before once/if they learn about the troubling revelations found in the journal of Knut's grandfather Asgeir.

    At least on the charr side Smodur, Malice and Efram are receiving more development for the time being although I wouldn't mind seeing more charr characters making appearances such as the Blood Legion Tribune Fierhan Sparwind (I assume he rebelled with Crecia against Bangar, or would he have sided with his Imperator's Dominion because of his views on Blood Legion's purpose?) and the so far unseen but seemingly popular Iron Legion Tribune Fume Brighteye who was said to be opposed to the Ebonhawke Treaty due to a tragic backstory involving her sire. It would be fun to see Fume try to steal the Claw of the Khan-Ur from the Black Citadel and either deliver it to Bangar to further his ambition of becoming Khan-Ur, or her trying to seize the artifact for herself in a bid to replace Smodur as the new Iron Imperator given what we learn about Fume's ambitions in NPC dialogue.

    I'd also love to see more development on Bangar's sleeper agents/moles within the three orders and if the Priory agents may attempt to steal the Sanguinary Blade, forged from Jormag's frozen blood which may end up being effective against Jormag, from the Priory's vaults so Bangar (or whoever becomes Jormag's ultimate champion) can wield that rimeblade against Rytlock's fiery Sohothin in a clash of Flame and Frost.

    I'd be sad if the charr sleeper agent existence would be brushed over as quickly as the human White Mantle spies in the three orders were during Season 3; there's lots of cool plots of intrigue to be had if we don't know which of our charr allies from the orders is revealed as a Bangar loyalist. Likewise, I'd love to see some interaction between Malice and Evon Gnashblade given Evon's past missions as an Ash Legion agent and his original reason for starting a business at Lion's Arch; would Evon be happy about aiding his Imperator, or will he try to distance himself from his Ash Legion agent days?

    As for more notable norn involvement, I've written at length about how the "Whitebear Saga" might turn out regarding the foreshadowed prophecy about Knut Whitebear's death (or Jormag at least tempting his bloodline as the wording of the prophecy is intriguingly vague when it mentions "...and the muttering voices will call for his blood."), the destiny of Knut's sons Skarti and the increasingly disillusioned and reckless Sigfast (whose anger, doubt and feelings of self-worth could lead to him becoming a mighty fine pawn for Jormag who would no doubt want to taint Asgeir's bloodline should the shocking truth about Asgeir's deal reach Sigfast's ears and shatter his view about his family's legend), and Knut's so far unseen legendary wife Gaerta Whitebear, the Bane of Lies who is currently adventuring in the north while building her legend. I hope we at least explore the family somewhat by the time we tackle with the masteries of Bear if not before.

    I wouldn't be opposed seeing more recurring norn than just the Whitebears make an appearance if the pacing of the story allows for it, however. There are lots of friendly norn faces from past storylines that the writers could use, or they could create brand new ones (beyond the potential in-game appearance of Gaerta herself in the flesh) to add more worldbuilding for the norn as a whole. :)

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    If the art book specifies that the Pale Tree was cleansed in the past, then that answers it. Every independent dragon minion that we know of would then have been either cleansed, or the result of the dragon outright dying rather than simply going to sleep (and the latter seems rare enough - we had the giant grub in Siren's Landing, but all the other "Unchained" still seem to be pretty much universally hostile).

    Here's the relevant quote from page 158:

    Before Mordremoth's onslaught, the world didn't know that the Pale Tree was once a sapling of the Elder Dragon. She was purified, somehow, and is remarkably benevolent. She sought to protect her young from the grasp of her maker, and so she kept the sylvari ignorant of their origin.

    The wording ''sapling of the Elder Dragon" here almost seems to imply, to me, that the Pale Tree (and thus Malyck's Tree and possibly the Tower of Nightmares if it did turn out to have also originated from the same batch of seeds) may be considered a scion of Mordremoth in a way. It would be interesting to find out if this is the case as that would make Pale Tree and Malyck's Tree candicacy as Mordremoth's dual replacements even more potent in case the connection between them and the Elder Dragon goes deeper than just being minion factories.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    But here's the point that you seem to be missing: If ArenaNet had taken the opportunity to let us explore the cave sometime during, just before, or just after Heart of Thorns, they could have answered these questions with regards to the Pale Tree and her origins back then, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. As is, I'm pretty sure that ArenaNet has moved on to other parts of the story and I don't think there's much prospect of going back to the jungle any time in the next few years if at all - the closest we're likely to get is the southern Verdant Brink region. Casually dropping it into the art book seems to be an implicit admission that they knew it was something that people wanted to know that they might never actually get around to putting in the game directly - because the best time to have done so has passed.

    What's interesting to me about the art book quote is that it doesn't specify how the Pale Tree was purified. The devs could've easily just flat out stated that she was purified by the Forgotten (or some other source) but they chose to leave the idea a mystery for now. Given how Matthew Medina is back at the studio and had a sizable (and well-received) pitch for continuing Malyck's story, maybe the writers could use that story thread to answer some of the unresolved questions from HoT and Season 2, especially if the Trees end up being scions of Mordremoth and thus even greater candidates as replacements (so Pale Tree could take over Mordremoth's Mind domain while Malyck's Tree could take over the Plant domain).

    This story could not only explore the origins of Dream and Nightmare by tying it to how Malyck's Tree may have a different Dream given Malyck's lack of our Dream, and whether Malyck's people were shielded from Mordremoth during HoT or not. We don't know why Malyck's people appear humanoid; given the implications of Pale Tree choosing a human shape for Grove sylvari, it suggests that Malyck's Tree must've either seen humans passing by or was planted on another human grave site to use these concepts as templates for her sylvari.

    Given how both Trees were apparently purified while the Pale Tree had Ventari's Tablet and other positive memories to guide her development towards goodness, it should be interesting to find out if Malyck's Tree likewise had some positive influence (based on how Malyck was still being relatively noble even if a bit more bloodthirsty than the average Dreamer) or if the Tree would've become a morally neutral entity as opposed to the good Pale Tree (and the evilly raised Tower of Nightmares if its ties to the Blighting Tree family are ever confirmed beyond hints). We might even learn where Scarlet acquired the Tower of Nightmares seed from as its existence was heavily tied to Mordremoth's influence via music and visuals.

    Depending on if Malyck's Tree is located in that unexplored patch of land east of Tangled Depths or somewhere else (given the odd way the river led Malyck's pod to Brisban Wildlands), the devs could even tie his absence from HoT to the SCAR meta from Tangled Depths. During that meta we stopped the Mordrem march east to invade Central Tyria, but we nevertheless saw hundreds of Mordrem escaping us unscathed. And yet these Mordrem never appeared in Metrica Province or Rata Sum en masse, so something or someone must've stopped their advance while we lorewise spent over a month fighting Mordremoth and his minions in the jungle. It would be easy enough to explain that these Mordrem entered the territory of Malyck's Tree and fought a fierce battle against Malyck's people, and thus Malyck never returned with an army to aid us while ironically ensuring that his people's actions did in fact save the asura from a massive Mordrem invasion. Besides, I'd just want that ugly gap in the world map between Metrica and TD to be filled by a zone one day. Perhaps this location could be close to the cave Ronan found the seeds in as nice lore fanservice. ;)

    The story could also explore the fates of the two missing Firstborn whose appearances were teased during the Blighted Pale Tree battle in "Hearts and Minds". During that battle we saw Blighted versions of our known Firstborn as well as one unknown female Firstborn Sniper and two unknown male Firstborn Tormentors. Given how post-torture Malomedies doesn't appear in the instance, it's reasonable to assume that one of those male unknown Firstborn (likely the more scholarly-looking one) portrays what Malomedies looked like before he was tortured by the asura. As we haven't seen the missing male and female Firstborn in the Grove (nor are their names ever revealed to us), it's likely that they're on an adventure out there. We could easily see at least one of them appear in the Malyck storyline, perhaps having discovered Malyck's Grove and learning from him about his adventures with Caithe, Trahearne and the Valiant. I wouldn't be opposed if we saw the other unknown Firstborn appear in the Icebrood Saga as who knows what adventures one of these Firstborn might be having in the frozen north although at times point a new sylvari hero appearing in the saga seems highly unlikely.

    This plot could explore the fate of the Unchained Mordrem and the rest of the Mordrem Guard since Mordremoth's demise and if some Unchained Mordrem champions have risen to lead these unhinged remnants. So far we've only met the one Solitary Sylvari in Labyrinthe Cliffs who claims he still feels Mordremoth in his head while he's trying to atone, and the teases that one, but the fate of the Mordrem Guard as a whole is unknown. Did any of them choose to embrace Mordremoth even after the dragon's demise? Did most of them return to Central Tyria to seek forgiveness from the rest of the sylvari and other races? Perhaps these Mordrem could still be threatening Malyck's Tree, thus explaining what kinds of enemies we'd face in the new zone.

    We could likewise learn more about the Nightmare Court splinter groups (Duchess Chrysanthea's faction and otherwise) that formed since Faolain's demise, and we might finally learn why the Nightmare Court were in the Heart of Maguuma to begin with during HoT and what Faolain had been doing in the years between Twilight Arbor ending and HoT. We could have some juicy and flirty dialogue with Chrysanthea while learning about the more "honorable" courtiers who might uphold the late Gavin's ideals while we'd also battle more bloodthirsty courtiers. It could be an uneasy alliance as we'd be unsure if it's wise to install a new and seemingly more benevolent Grand Duchess (Chrysanthea) to sway the court as a whole or if we're being played in a complex game of intrigue as Chrysanthea manipulates us by appearing as kind. It would likewise be fascinating to find out how these court factions reacted to the existence of Malyck's Tree now that we live in the post-Mordremoth-reveal world where the court has to come to terms with their original destiny as intended dragon minions. Could Malyck and Chrysanthea ever learn to set aside their differences and learn to coexist despite the court's troubled history with the Nightmare Harbinger Malyck?

    Finally, the biggest reason for us to explore the Malyck's Tree storyline would be the potential tie-in to the narrative's golden path which is about dealing with the Elder Dragon threat and fulfilling Glint's Legacy to balance the All. We know that Glint and the Forgotten intended to replace the Elder Dragons with six benevolent entities, but we never learned about any other replacements beyond Vlast, Aurene and likely Glint herself. So if everything had gone according to plan, who did Glint intend the three other balancers to be? The saltsprays Albax, Kuunavang, Shiny, or someone else (this could also be a tie-in to Canthan expansion as the Zephyrites were implied to have visited Cantha during the time they fetched the egg that contained Aurene from someone, likely Vlast...Ogden really needs to tell us the identity of the being that spoke with the Master of Peace back then)?

    Assuming that we can't just ring up the ghosts of Glint and Vlast to become ED replacements (or could their ghosts actually fulfill the purpose?), Aurene can't handle all the six dragons' twelve domains by herself. We also can't kill any more EDs without destroying Tyria, so Jormag has an advantage over us in the conflict. We thus need replacements for Zhaitan and Mordremoth ASAP. Depending on if the Pale Tree is still too weak to take on all of Mordy's magic, perhaps she could share it with Malyck's Tree, thus the Trees taking one domain each to lessen the burden of magic on themselves. This would then necessitate revisiting Malyck's story to find out if his Tree is a viable candidate for the Legacy project or if the Tree is too bloodthirsty or unpredictable (depending on if she's a neutral entity) to become a replacement. If the story went in this direction, it would also open up juicy lore opportunities to explore how the other races reacted to the idea of the Pale Tree gaining Mordy's power, especially as there are still people out there who view the sylvari with suspicion as revealed in Jora's Keep ambient dialogue.

    All in all, the story practically writes itself from here with lots of fun exploration of sylvari topics and the greater narrative thread itself while also tying up some loose threads from sylvari personal story and HoT. :)

  • keenedge.9675keenedge.9675 Member ✭✭✭

    IMO, this story is mostly about the subtle influence of Jormag influencing the Charr like it did the Norn many years ago. The Charr are now in a mega cat-fight, this civil war caused by Jormag's manipulations. Every seen a real cat-fight? It's only Party A and Party B. The Norn at this point seem to be a wiser race since they've lived with the influence of Jormag, so they tend to be in a STRONG support role.

    Moral Statute Machine: John Spartan, you are fined five credits for repeated violations of the verbal morality statute.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    However, there is no evidence to your assumption that dragon minions that only become aware when both their master and all champions of their master are fully asleep lack this forced loyalty. Every instance of a dragon minion that existed while the dragon was asleep - Drakkar, the Great Destroyer, minions created or converted by either - has been loyal to the dragon that created them. Except for Glint, who explicitly went through a ritual to grant her free will, and the Pale Tree, where the cause of her independence was left unspecified... until, apparently, recently.

    Beings like Drakkar, and the Great Destroyer, were already entities that existed before the dragons went to sleep, and were already corrupted before that time. And the destroyers themselves are just magical constructs, and not sentient entities corrupted by dragon influence. The seeds were neither corrupted one way or another, nor were they sentient entities to be corrupted. Its a different situation in its entirety.

    But here's the point that you seem to be missing: If ArenaNet had taken the opportunity to let us explore the cave sometime during, just before, or just after Heart of Thorns, they could have answered these questions with regards to the Pale Tree and her origins back then, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

    This is competently untrue and you know it. If anything, had they gone into it, we would have had another situation like Lazarus and Joko, entries that were taken care of within a reasonable manner in respect to their overall importance, that the "fandom" constantly complains about because it didn't meet their overblown and unrealistic expectation of how it should be. Any reveal about the Pale tree's "purification" would have been mundane, because that is what it should be.

    As is, I'm pretty sure that ArenaNet has moved on to other parts of the story and I don't think there's much prospect of going back to the jungle any time in the next few years if at all

    You really don't need to go to the jungle at all to deal with a Pale Tree origin story. It could be revealed as anything from something the Pale Tree saw in a vision, to something Aurene figures out due to being an Elder Dragon. Or an Anet dev could just point to Mawdrey and be like "dats it guyz"

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    I'd also love to see more development on Bangar's sleeper agents/moles within the three orders and if the Priory agents may attempt to steal the Sanguinary Blade, forged from Jormag's frozen blood which may end up being effective against Jormag, from the Priory's vaults so Bangar (or whoever becomes Jormag's ultimate champion) can wield that rimeblade against Rytlock's fiery Sohothin in a clash of Flame and Frost.

    I would be rather surprised if the Sanguinary Blade comes up at all. Unlike the Dragonsblood spear, which was made specifically to kill Kralk because Kralk's weakness was his own power, Jormag has no stated weakness to himself(in fact, his stated weakness is Primordus's power),nor was the blade made for such a purpose in the first place.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think we'll be concluding the Charr bit pretty soon. Perhaps even during the release of the second half of Drizzlewood next episode. We may still have a few pieces here and there resolving the leadership after that, but I think we'll be concluding Bangar and Ryland's involvement pretty soon.

    I had really hoped going into this season that we would have a lot more lore development on certain things. Hoped to see a bunch of Jotun/Norn/Spirit lore exploring new areas with a few unexpected things in between. I.e. The mysterious rune area that we had in GW1 related to the facets and such.

    I'm still hoping for that as we move into areas in the North we haven't been before.

    I like Charr but I'd be far more interested in learning about their origin story and the resolution of the Foefire than be involved in their militant-focused politics. It's just not overly interesting to me and doesn't feel like something anyone other than a Charr should be involved with. I'm sure the same could be said about some of the human-centric political plots we've had in the past, or the forced joining of The Shining Blade.

    The plot so far has felt like a really drab mixture of House of Cards and Game of Thrones, with emphasis on politics. I guess I'd just rather learn about the origin of the Spirits and ancient magics or the interworkings of The All and the mists.

    Perhaps it's yet again an issue of the delivery method of the episodes. Even "closer" together it's hard for me personally to get excited about a bunch of episodes that feel like they aren't as impactful without being played back to back within the same time frame. With them being released every few months it just feels like I've been constantly waiting for something to happen, and we're just now getting the reveal of the "Frost Legion" that we were already expecting anyway?

    On top of that the plot is extremely focused and short to begin with. Last season we had the introduction of the Olmakhan and where are they now during all of this Charr mess? Where is Rox?

    Where is 90% of our guild? It's just Rhytlock, Crecia, Bangar, and Ryland. I imagine Jora will show up next episode, and potentially Braham, but Majory and Kas, Canach, Taimi, everyone seems to have just been ghosted from the plot. I don't know if this is because of the lay offs last year and certain people not being there anymore or if they're just really wanting a more focused plot.

    I was also hoping the Visions of the Past would be an exciting opportunity similar to fractals to get completely different viewpoints and historical perspective. I.e. We play as Aesgir and live his interaction with Jormag firsthand. We play as a Kodan far back in history or some Norn during their exodus. We play as a Jotun during the height of their civilization, or learn more about the scroll that Braham used on Eir's bow and how it got where it did.

    But it seems like it's just going to be as focused as the rest of the story and only exist to move the plot forward or introduce something for the next episode.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    As mentioned in "Hidden Arcana" and later expanded upon in "Crystalline Memories", all the ritual did was allow Glint to think for herself. She didn't turn good because of it. In fact, she stayed loyal to Kralk for some time after. It was only after using her mind reading powers to hear the thoughts of the other races that she switched sides. The point of the ritual is to free an enslaved minion's mind so it has the CHANCE to turn good. Actually being good is based on sympathy.

    Here's the thing though... the Pale Tree was a seed, seeds don't have minds to be enthralled, they are just seeds.

    Trees also don't have minds to be enthralled, yet here we are. The seed becomes the tree, as in being the same entity - little different than a caterpillar becoming a butterfly - it isn't a shell or cocoon or, for a more mordrem analogy, a pod; and even if it was, the would-be tree inside would have a mind, just like the unhatched Aurene did, and mordrem/sylvari inside pods do. So your analogy there is off.

    And yes, I'm aware that the ritual only gave Glint free will - as I said in my previous post, that's what purifying is. Similar happens to the Unchained in Siren's Landing, as we can see with the Gargantuan Grub. So, to clarify my previous statements, yes, Ronan and Ventari's actions did indeed influence the Pale Tree - there is no denying this. But seed or not, the Pale Tree was still a dragon minion, and that means it would be enthralled to Mordremoth's will, even if it was a seed. The Complete Art of Guild Wars book confirms that the Pale Tree was "purified, somehow, and is remarkably benevolent" (page 158). If it was just a matter of nurture, don't you think that such would have been stated instead of confirming a purification and keeping the how a mystery?

    By claiming that it would have become a Blighting Tree otherwise, is nothing short of your speculation that you're trying to pass as a fact. A piece of speculation which simply is unprovable and even supported to be false. It also just doesn't make sense even without support against it, because of what I first stated.

    It "never had a risk of being corrupted" because it already was corrupted. If it wasn't corrupted, then it would have become a Stonewood tree instead (assuming the implications from S2 and HoT are correct about what Blighting Trees were pre-corruption).

    This is actually highly suggested to be incorrect. Even Mordremoth was only abusing the Dream - it did not originate from him.

    That is literally what I just said Konig.

    No, you said that the Dream is a piece of Mordremoth's hive mind that broke off while he slept. This argument means that the Dream originates from Mordremoth.

    But by all evidence, it does not. And neither does the Nightmare.

    There's really not much left needed to be expanded upon. As I listed out earlier, by this point in the IBS we have already

    If we kept to a bare bones plot (this refers to both the main story and open world, mind you), then you'd be correct; however, you'll find that most people disagree with you. You're in the superminority when it comes to preferring bare bone plots.

    We've learned plenty, but there's several times more to learn.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    No-one knew of a remaining egg until it was convenient for the plot for there to be one.

    Except anyone who played GW1 and saw Glint's eggs.

    Also, "No other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them" that's a lot of speculation.

    Nothing about that is speculation. None of the Elder Dragons we have encountered, which is all of them except Bubbles at this point, have made any sort of verbal or physical desire to have children. And the uniqueness of Glint, and her children, has been a major plot point throughout the game thus far.

    Good thing we did too, given that she hatched not long after! Wow, what a coincidence!

    Nothing about what you described was coincidental. Glint's whole master plan was to use herself and her children to replace the Elder Dragons. Her children would, you know, have to be hatched to do so. They constantly hammer in that Glint planned most of this out ages ago. If its part of a plan, it isn't coincidental.

    What's the source for them having recreated it and that being the reason for its existence?

    Literally all of episode two of LWS4, and part of episode 3 as well. Gorrik even going after how they found ancient samples(aka dead scarabs) and have been trying to recreate it. Its even a big deal in Long Live the Lich where Gorrik mentions that the scarabs Joko used to attack Amnoon where not the full scarab plague, but only 2nd generation scarabs, and he would need the third generation ones to actually do so. And he only got that at the end of Long Live the Lich because he first used the Inquest to make the first generation scarabs, and then used awakened Inquest to make the 2nd and 3rd generation ones

    I don't really agree with the Children bit. As the Elder Dragon plot has progressed we've been seeing more and more personality from the elder dragons and learning more about their motives and thoughts. When we were dealing with Zhaitan we just thought he was an evil baddy. When we learned about Mordremoth we got hints from him about the impact of us challenging him, i.e. the imbalance during the Dragon Stand meta fight. After we killed him we learned about their connection to Tyria and their purpose. Then Kralk comes, we fight him, and we learn about the torment that drove him to behave the way he did. We learn he has a family and care for said family.

    Until we found out the importance of keeping Kralk alive the plot with the elder dragons didn't need to be any more complicated than simply killing them. Know we know their importance, and thanks to Kralk and Aurene that they're more than just forces of nature and actually sentient methodical creatures.

    We don't even know WHY Jormag wants to connect with Aurene. For all we know it could be for procreation purposes as Jormag is non-binary and again, we don't know how they reproduce.

    Sure, it could be because it was Kralk, Aurene, and Glint, but we could just as easily learn something from Jormag about children/family/scions and even more on the origin of the elder dragons in general. We don't even know how the Elder Dragons reproduce.

    I just think at this point in Guild Wars 2, assuming ANYTHING solid about Elder Dragons is kind of a fool's errand. The writers can change direction at anytime and given previous Guild Chats it seems that they don't even entirely have their own direction for them mapped out. They might have some vague overarching plot outline, but it seems like the vast majority of the details are made up as meshed together however they see fit.

    We haven't really had any need to learn about more Scions because we've already had Aurene. Now that she's ascended and more connected she might lead us to more.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    If the art book specifies that the Pale Tree was cleansed in the past, then that answers it. Every independent dragon minion that we know of would then have been either cleansed, or the result of the dragon outright dying rather than simply going to sleep (and the latter seems rare enough - we had the giant grub in Siren's Landing, but all the other "Unchained" still seem to be pretty much universally hostile).

    To quote the entire passage on page 158:
    "Before Mordremoth's onslaught, the world didn't know that the Pale Tree was once a sapling of the Elder Dragon. She was purified, somehow, and is remarkably benevolent. She sought to protect her young from the grasp of her maker, and so she kept the sylvari ignorant of their origin."

    It not only confirms she was purified - though lacks on what did it - thus indicating that she was indeed enthralled to his will at some point, but it also hints that the Pale Tree and other seeds in the cave (maybe all Blighting Trees) may be Mordremoth's scion in the same way Glint is Kralkatorrik's scion.

    [EDIT: I see Kossage explained pretty much the same stuff.]

    With respect to the context in which this discussion started, it doesn't really matter which side is right. The point is that it's still a point of contention years after the sylvari-themed storyline was done and dusted.

    Pretty much this, and on all of the loose plot threads that Sajuuk has a big habit of saying "it's not important" for the plots we tend to get.

    I mean, take a look at the Renegade-Bangar connection created, both at the end of Bound by Blood and with Ajax. Without the former, then we would have continued asking that question of where the Renegades were getting their funding, and if they were still an issue despite ANet confirming they were in that one weapon collection they added (side note: interesting that they confirm Separatists are still an issue in Bound by Blood, despite losing their funding from Caudecus and the White Mantle). But since ANet added in that simple handful of lines, we're not asking what the situation is anymore - we know the situation; the Renegades formed the original brunt of Bangar's army to take on Jormag. They are all but gone or part of the Dominion now.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    This is competently untrue and you know it. If anything, had they gone into it, we would have had another situation like Lazarus and Joko, entries that were taken care of within a reasonable manner in respect to their overall importance, that the "fandom" constantly complains about because it didn't meet their overblown and unrealistic expectation of how it should be. Any reveal about the Pale tree's "purification" would have been mundane, because that is what it should be.

    I disagree about the comparison to Lazarus and Joko. In this case, we're getting some lore on the Pale Tree, who has had her fair share of screen time. There wouldn't be an issue about the depth of going into this topic, because the sheer revelation would be sufficient (as you suggest); the attention a specific piece of backstory gets is entirely different from the screentime a major lore figure gets.

    Take, for example, the Halloween collection on Joko's past. The only issue anyone has about it, is that it doesn't explain how Joko became a lich. There's nothing about lacking any expectation - because expectations are tied to what gets revealed and how much screentime characters get, and now how much screentime a revelation has.

    In fact, when revelations get drawn out for a lengthy period of time, fans tend to react negatively - the opposite of what you proclaim.

    You really don't need to go to the jungle at all to deal with a Pale Tree origin story. It could be revealed as anything from something the Pale Tree saw in a vision, to something Aurene figures out due to being an Elder Dragon. Or an Anet dev could just point to Mawdrey and be like "dats it guyz"

    You do realize that ANet pointing to Mawdrey as an excuse for how the Pale Tree got purified is basically them saying "the Pale Tree is the third generation of mordrem that got fed an abhorrent amount of exotic magic from across central Tyria" which, btw, we know didn't happen unless it happened in the previous dragonrise.

    I would be rather surprised if the Sanguinary Blade comes up at all. Unlike the Dragonsblood spear, which was made specifically to kill Kralk because Kralk's weakness was his own power, Jormag has no stated weakness to himself(in fact, his stated weakness is Primordus's power),nor was the blade made for such a purpose in the first place.

    I actually agree here, rather, I'd expect the Sanguinary Blade to turn up - at least in mention - during a plot fighting against Primordus instead.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I actually agree here, rather, I'd expect the Sanguinary Blade to turn up - at least in mention - during a plot fighting against Primordus instead.

    I would be surprised if it was mentioned there either. Its such a non-starter of a solution due to its corruption of its wielder(which was the whole point of its narrative in the first place) that I would be amazed if anyone even considered using it.

    I mean, take a look at the Renegade-Bangar connection created, both at the end of Bound by Blood and with Ajax. Without the former, then we would have continued asking that question of where the Renegades were getting their funding,

    Why did ANYONE ever have a question about how the Renegades were getting funded? Who would have guessed that a large group of Charr could pull money together? Its like saying they needed Caudecus to explain how the Separatists got their funding.... no they didn't. It makes sense there are going to be people, on all levels, who oppose the treaty, and thus would be funding these groups. We don't need a litany of names to understand that. That's as much of common sense as people using the toilet.

    If anything, the Bangar/Renegade connection just creates some pretty big plot holes. Now we are led to believe that literally no one, not even Creica or the Ash Legion, somehow found ANY evidence of Bangar supplying the Renegades for years, despite the fact that he was not only the one most opposed to the treaty, but ALSO the father of the guy leading the whole group. At least in the case of Caudecus he was constantly being busted for being involved, but managed to get out of it by being JUST slippery enough they couldn't pin anything on him directly. Now they have made Bangar into some giant Mary Sue, and everyone else into stumbling idiots. Its such a forced connection.

    (side note: interesting that they confirm Separatists are still an issue in Bound by Blood, despite losing their funding from Caudecus and the White Mantle). But since ANet added in that simple handful of lines, we're not asking what the situation is anymore - we know the situation; the Renegades formed the original brunt of Bangar's army to take on Jormag. They are all but gone or part of the Dominion now.

    Why would anyone need to ask about the situation in the first place? We all know that cutting off the funding/killing leaders doesn't cause everyone who followed them to instantly drop dead, and that people will continue causes for years after. We don't need constant updates with people telling us not all the Risen, Mordrem, or Branded are dead post dragon defeat either.

    In fact, when revelations get drawn out for a lengthy period of time, fans tend to react negatively - the opposite of what you proclaim.

    Except the most constantly complained about things, HoT, Joko, and Lazarus, were all complained about because of how short they were developed.

  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    We had a lot of Norn in Bjora and we'll see more Icebrood in the following episodes, what more do you want ?

    Not to mention we have only met, of the big 4 spirits, Raven and Wolf. I suspect we will get some Bear and Snow Leopard story stuff at some point. Maybe even something Owl related.

    I'm vying for Wurm.

    Renegade Rework - A fan-made project including artwork and Wiki

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72196/become-renegade-the-greatsword-wielding-revenant#latest <<<----

    Awesome thread, made by DonArkanio.6419 , a revenant rework.

    Make sure to compliment him for all his hard work!!!

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    However, there is no evidence to your assumption that dragon minions that only become aware when both their master and all champions of their master are fully asleep lack this forced loyalty. Every instance of a dragon minion that existed while the dragon was asleep - Drakkar, the Great Destroyer, minions created or converted by either - has been loyal to the dragon that created them. Except for Glint, who explicitly went through a ritual to grant her free will, and the Pale Tree, where the cause of her independence was left unspecified... until, apparently, recently.

    Beings like Drakkar, and the Great Destroyer, were already entities that existed before the dragons went to sleep, and were already corrupted before that time. And the destroyers themselves are just magical constructs, and not sentient entities corrupted by dragon influence. The seeds were neither corrupted one way or another, nor were they sentient entities to be corrupted. Its a different situation in its entirety.

    And that's kinda the point. We have no evidence or precedence to your argument, since the Pale Tree is the only example we have of a dragon minion who became sentient at a time when neither the Elder Dragon nor a champion of the Elder Dragon was aware enough to take control.

    However, if your only example is the very case that's under discussion, and there's an alternate explanation which does have a clear precedent (Glint)... yeah, there's nothing to support your claim. And now we have it being spelled out - the Pale Tree was purified at some point. There's the answer, in black and white. The Pale Tree was purified, and that's why she had the capacity to become benevolent. There's... not really much point in discussing it further. At this point, you're arguing against something we have now been explicitly told.

    But if they'd done it ingame, we'd have had it years ago and in a more satisfying manner than a caption in an art book.

    But here's the point that you seem to be missing: If ArenaNet had taken the opportunity to let us explore the cave sometime during, just before, or just after Heart of Thorns, they could have answered these questions with regards to the Pale Tree and her origins back then, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

    This is competently untrue and you know it. If anything, had they gone into it, we would have had another situation like Lazarus and Joko, entries that were taken care of within a reasonable manner in respect to their overall importance, that the "fandom" constantly complains about because it didn't meet their overblown and unrealistic expectation of how it should be. Any reveal about the Pale tree's "purification" would have been mundane, because that is what it should be.

    First, there's a bit of circular reasoning in your argument there. We're saying that ArenaNet could spend a bit more time on fleshing stuff out, and you're saying that they won't because they haven't.

    Second, it wouldn't need to be more than an event or two and some interactable items with some text. It's not like we're talking about an epic six-chapter arc here.

    Third, ArenaNet themselves have acknowledged that they regret how much some of the stuff you mention was rushed, and that they'd like to do things better in the future.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Third, ArenaNet themselves have acknowledged that they regret how much some of the stuff you mention was rushed, and that they'd like to do things better in the future.

    The only thing I recall them ever saying this on was HoT. When it came to Joko, explicitly remember them saying they maybe could have extended his story into the first part of chapter 4, but that would have been about it.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Third, ArenaNet themselves have acknowledged that they regret how much some of the stuff you mention was rushed, and that they'd like to do things better in the future.

    The only thing I recall them ever saying this on was HoT. When it came to Joko, explicitly remember them saying they maybe could have extended his story into the first part of chapter 4, but that would have been about it.

    I distinctly remember them saying that they'd initially only planned out for three chapters, and it wasn't until they'd already committed that they realised they could have taken it much further. At that point, though, they were already, well, committed, so in practice they couldn't extend it much. That's probably where the bit you remember came from - as much as they might have wanted in hindsight to spend more time on him, the realities of their development cycle meant that it was impractical to attempt.

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    I do hope we'll see more recurring norn characters besides Braham and Jhavi in the saga as the story progresses. While we've had some intriguing one-offs like Olar, Torrin and the Fraenir in the story (and Weibe in open world meta; I'd love to see the other havrouns as well as Bear's new havroun in the saga too), I'm missing the involvement of our norn friends from the three orders as well as the Whitebear family who now have an even bigger stake than before once/if they learn about the troubling revelations found in the journal of Knut's grandfather Asgeir.

    Which is a very valid point. While Konig's right in that there are more important characters in Bjora than some people are claiming, it's nevertheless true that there's a good chance that Jhavi and Braham are the only ones that will be recurring characters.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Which is a very valid point. While Konig's right in that there are more important characters in Bjora than some people are claiming, it's nevertheless true that there's a good chance that Jhavi and Braham are the only ones that will be recurring characters.

    Braham and Jhavi are the ones seen in the trailer with Rytlock about to face off with Jormag, so probably.

    So far we have gotten the Charr, Norn, and Kodan stuff we saw in the trailer. That just leaves the centaur appearance, and then the final battle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I actually agree here, rather, I'd expect the Sanguinary Blade to turn up - at least in mention - during a plot fighting against Primordus instead.

    I would be surprised if it was mentioned there either. Its such a non-starter of a solution due to its corruption of its wielder(which was the whole point of its narrative in the first place) that I would be amazed if anyone even considered using it.

    The whole point of its narrative was the Sons of Svanir using it to lead an assault on Lion's Arch and spread Jormag's corruption. The corruption of its wielder when not protected was just a small filler for that small arc to give us a meaningless choice in the middle. Besides, there had to be a reason for the Sanguinary Blade to have been crafted by the dwarves in the first place, and it is well known the dwarves fought with destroyers often.

    Why did ANYONE ever have a question about how the Renegades were getting funded? Who would have guessed that a large group of Charr could pull money together? Its like saying they needed Caudecus to explain how the Separatists got their funding.... no they didn't. It makes sense there are going to be people, on all levels, who oppose the treaty, and thus would be funding these groups. We don't need a litany of names to understand that. That's as much of common sense as people using the toilet.

    If anything, the Bangar/Renegade connection just creates some pretty big plot holes. Now we are led to believe that literally no one, not even Creica or the Ash Legion, somehow found ANY evidence of Bangar supplying the Renegades for years, despite the fact that he was not only the one most opposed to the treaty, but ALSO the father of the guy leading the whole group. At least in the case of Caudecus he was constantly being busted for being involved, but managed to get out of it by being JUST slippery enough they couldn't pin anything on him directly. Now they have made Bangar into some giant Mary Sue, and everyone else into stumbling idiots. Its such a forced connection.

    Why did anyone have a question of who was funding the Renegades? Because you cannot wage wars without funds, that's kind of a known fact. And knowing a person in power with money is a rather important detail to any threat.

    And I would greatly disagree with Bangar being "some giant Mary Sue" - he is very clearly displayed, well before that revelation, that he is a subtle and cunning manipulator that works through intermediaries. Plus the prologue does establish that Malice had implication of Bangar's involvement with Renegades, and it would make sense Crecia - who's faith in Bangar was so kitten high - wouldn't bother to look into someone she didn't suspect of wrongdoing, or that Smodur, who doesn't care for subterfuge, wouldn't look into it either.

    Why would anyone need to ask about the situation in the first place? We all know that cutting off the funding/killing leaders doesn't cause everyone who followed them to instantly drop dead, and that people will continue causes for years after. We don't need constant updates with people telling us not all the Risen, Mordrem, or Branded are dead post dragon defeat either.

    You misinterpreted the point of my comment. It isn't about "anyone needing to ask" or about "constant updates", but rather knowing what the aftermath is. When a short statement on the aftermath is established, it ties up a loose plot thread.

    For example, without Siren's Landing, or similar commentary to the same effect, we would never know that the risen would have regained free will after Zhaitan's death. This changes a lot about what we knew of dragon minions - that the enslavement to a will ends with the death of the master, even though the minions remain. This result means that there could be more cases like Glint among the risen, if steps are taken properly.

    Or how Bound by Blood establishes that Aurene has been hunting down the branded and killing them; this answers a question many people had for when she became an Elder Dragon: would she be able to simply control all branded now that she took her grandfather's power, or would she need to re-brand them, and could she? The answer is: she couldn't take control, and either didn't want to or cannot re-brand them without killing them.

    Meanwhile, we have never gotten an answer for what happened to the Margonites of Nightfall, or the Forged of PoF. Does it matter? Ultimately, no. But not answering that with a simple statement leads to open doors and questions all the same.

    I think you're so focused on the concept of "do we even need to know" that you're overlooking "what knowing would change".

    In fact, when revelations get drawn out for a lengthy period of time, fans tend to react negatively - the opposite of what you proclaim.

    Except the most constantly complained about things, HoT, Joko, and Lazarus, were all complained about because of how short they were developed.

    Cherrypicking your responses and ignoring other parts of the post, ironic coming from you. Let me quote the full statement for you, since that perfectly responds to your comment:

    "I disagree about the comparison to Lazarus and Joko. In this case, we're getting some lore on the Pale Tree, who has had her fair share of screen time. There wouldn't be an issue about the depth of going into this topic, because the sheer revelation would be sufficient (as you suggest); the attention a specific piece of backstory gets is entirely different from the screentime a major lore figure gets."

    "Take, for example, the Halloween collection on Joko's past. The only issue anyone has about it, is that it doesn't explain how Joko became a lich. There's nothing about lacking any expectation - because expectations are tied to what gets revealed and how much screentime characters get, and now how much screentime a revelation has."

    "In fact, when revelations get drawn out for a lengthy period of time, fans tend to react negatively - the opposite of what you proclaim."

    Comparing a revelation about a character with a lot of screen time is very different from the screentime or importance of a character. Since the former is merely a small piece of the latter. The two simply aren't directly comparable.

    In fact, most revelations are short and to the point, very few being dragged out. The only revelations that were really dragged out was the revelation of Mordremoth/sylvari origins, and Glint's legacy.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    So far we have gotten the Charr, Norn, and Kodan stuff we saw in the trailer. That just leaves the centaur appearance, and then the final battle.

    And, supposedly, krait. There is that one shipwreck scene were people insist they see krait among the debris. Though we are yet to see any show of shipwreck and water that the scene implies.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I would be rather surprised if the Sanguinary Blade comes up at all. Unlike the Dragonsblood spear, which was made specifically to kill Kralk because Kralk's weakness was his own power, Jormag has no stated weakness to himself(in fact, his stated weakness is Primordus's power),nor was the blade made for such a purpose in the first place.

    I wouldn't necessarily write off a potential connection just yet. Looking back at how three Elder Dragons were defeated, we find something curious:

    1) Zhaitan was defeated in part by using its own Death magic against it during the final battle (see e.g. the cannons and the MEGA-LIT that used Gorr's vacuumagic polarizer tech).

    2) Mordremoth was defeated with a combination of Mind magic and Plant magic. The former via entering the Dream to battle Mordy's mind and turning the mind's evil manifestations of our friends into our allies to deprive the avatar of their protective power. The latter via plunging Caladbolg (a thorn of the Pale Tree who has deep ties to Mordy and thus access to some purified form of Plant magic as seen via the Artesian Waters in the Zhaitan campaign) into Mordy's last physical host to finish the last seed of the Jungle Dragon's mind off for good.

    3) Kralkatorrik was defeated with Crystal magic due to the resonance of the Branded, Aurene, and the Dragonsblood Spears.

    I could write off the deaths of two dragons via their greatest strength as a mere happy coincidence, but three deaths involving such seems to suggest a pattern. If we follow this line of reasoning, Jormag's great Ice magic could thus be potentially used against it as well.

    Presently the story has revealed multiple weaknesses for dragons:

    1) Turning the dragons' own magic spectrum aka their greatest strength against them (see the examples with the three dragons above).

    2) Their opposite dragon's magic in the All (Primordus vs. Jormag confirmed, Zhaitan vs. Mordremoth heavily implied via the way we damaged the Unstable Abomination by exposing it to Death and Plant magic during S3Ep3, and thus Kralkatorrik/Aurene should theoretically be the direct opponent of the deep sea dragon if this pattern holds).

    3) "Poisoning" magic and force-feeding a weakened dragon with it as seen with the battle against Zhaitan and how Gorr's experiments on Risen worked. Granted, this could simply be a part of example 1 given how we used Death magic there.

    4) Divine magic (aka magic foreign to Tyria) as seen with the Divine Fire scaring off Mordrem and finishing off the Shadow of the Dragon in Season 2, or how djinn gained immunity to Branding via using Abaddon's remnant magic in the sands (until Kralk consumed Balthazar and managed to circumvent this protection) and how Kormir's fire protected Sun's Refuge from Branded until they figured out a loophole via Mist rifts.

    5) Native Tyrian (spirit?) magic. See e.g. the three Lost Spirits using their power to help Braham defeat Drakkar for good, or how the kodan use the Spirit of Fire's remnant power in Koda's Flame to ward off Icebrood and protect themselves from the blizzard in Bitterfrost Frontier. This could potentially be classified under the "divine" magic listed in Example 4 (as devs have referred to the Spirits as norn "deities" in a very general sense a couple of times) except this magic is native to Tyria rather than originating from elsewhere in the Mists. It's unknown if the Blue and Golden Orbs (presently warding Fort Trinity and the Pyrite Peninsula, respectively) are related to this kind of magic or something else entirely, but they do oppose dragon corruption to some degree as well.

    As such, I'd argue that the Rata Novans' research, while impressive, was left incomplete due to the sudden chak invasion, so they only figured out that each dragon had seemingly one distinctive weakness when we see from the above examples that several general weaknesses do in fact exist and are shared by at least some of the dragons in the All. While there's no definite proof that all dragons share all of the above weaknesses (even less so now that there's a chance that all the remaining dragons may have gained some of Balthazar's magic and can thus circumvent the protection of divine magic), it's certainly a possibility given the aforementioned evidence.

    And thus the Sanguinary Blade could in fact tie into the story somehow if Jormag finds a way to destroy any weapon(s) enchanted by jotun scrolls and if it finds a way to counter Koda's Flame (should that S3 story ever be referenced in the saga) and we need to start figuring out alternative ways to face Jormag. Given how three dragons have already fallen to their greatest strength, perhaps Jormag will follow this pattern in some way too. I'd prefer the blade ending in the hands of one of Jormag's champions (perhaps the charr champion shown in the announcement trailer) for a symbolic clash between Flame (Sohothin, representing the divine fire of a god) and Frost (Sanguinary Blade, representing the icy power of an Elder Dragon) should Rytlock have to face this champion in battle.

    However, given how Iron Tribune Fume Brighteye has yet to make an in-game appearance despite being set up as wanting to become Smodur's potential successor (while potentially being a Renegade sympathizer as she's opposed to the Ebonhawke Treaty) while the Dominion plot is now chugging on with many defections from the legions, the developers will have to pick and choose which of the seeded plot threads from vanilla game they want to expand on and address given the tight budget per episode.

    It could very well be that we'll never see further development for the Sanguinary Blade or Mattul Krigheset's proposed idea of using the Fang of the Serpent as a ballista projectile against Jormag, but it would be cool if those ideas were explored more rather than being one-offs:

    Mattul Krigheset: One night, I was lying on my furs, trying to sleep, and it struck me. How are we going to battle a creature as vast and powerful as Jormag? We haven't even broken his tooth yet!
    Player: And?
    Mattul Krigheset: And so, what if we made a weapon out of the tooth? A giant ballista with the tooth as it's projectile! What do you think?
    Player: How?
    Mattul Krigheset: By lashing it to a caber, like a giant dart. With the right amount of force, it would pierce the dragon's hide and bore straight into its black heart!
    Player: Devious and inventive! Good luck with it.

    If one of Jormag's weaknesses was in fact its own icy power as suggested above, then using the fang as such a weapon against the Ice Dragon would be a lovely, devious move: turning Jormag's token of manipulating Asgeir and the norn into an actual weapon against the dragon in an ironic twist that would fit the epic narratives in Norse sagas! :)

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    So far we have gotten the Charr, Norn, and Kodan stuff we saw in the trailer. That just leaves the centaur appearance, and then the final battle.

    While I understand the trailer depicts general concepts, I would've loved to see an actual kodan burial at sea in some form unless the devs are saving that for later. It certainly made for a beautiful if somber visual in the trailer.

    Interestingly the announcement trailer does also depict what seems to be an aftermath of a naval battle somewhere (maybe the so far unseen Sea of Desperation if that turns out to be the sea Jormag created that now connects to the shoreline of Woodland Cascades?). What's even more interesting is that at 1:06 in the trailer we see what appears to be a krait (to the "southeast" of the foreground norn) sinking into the depths, so this may suggest some krait involvement in a future episode.

    It will be interesting to find out what roles centaurs and potentially krait play in the saga. I'd love to see us meeting some friendly centaur rebels from the Centaur Alliance and help them dethrone the Modniir High Command (or a new War King if such has risen since Ulgoth's demise) so the Harathi and Tamini can no longer have to fear reprisals from the more dominating Modniir. Maybe we could even use good charr and sylvari as ambassadors to try to broker an armistice between humans and centaurs (as centaurs respect sylvari as nature spirits, and charr have experience detailing the benefits of a treaty with their former human enemies) while Jennah could provide evidence from Caudecus's seized letters in Season 3 to prove that Caudecus was the driving force behind the war on the humans' side while Jennah always preferred a more diplomatic solution to end hostilities without demeaning centaurs or taking over all their lands.

    Meanwhile Jormag's whispers (which already seem to be influencing some people in Drizzlewood Coast based on ambient dialogue at e.g. Fort Defiance) could become appealing to the ousted warmongerers among centaurs who'd turn to Jormag in their desperation to retake what they lost just like some centaurs consumed Bloodstone dust as a last resort to take on Divinity's Reach with the White Mantle's help back in Season 3.

    Fural Rageseeker: We sent out some agents to keep an eye on the centaurs to the west. There are reports that centaurs have been seen meeting with the Flame Legion. If that's true, it's quite concerning.

    Interestingly there were also suggestions of a Centaur Alliance and Flame Legion collaboration back in vanilla game dialogue for Fural Rageseeker as seen above although so far nothing has (seemingly) come of it. I'd love to see the more evil Flame Legion splinter groups appear in the saga to oppose Efram's ambitions to become Flame Imperator, and how one of these splinter groups could be led by Crecia's high-ranking shaman sire to make the conflict even more personal for some of our heroes.

    Just like I'd love to see some jotun and possibly grawl and quaggan involvement in the saga too so they can take their revenge on the Ice Dragon, given how much Bergris, Gara, Baroosh and Shashoo suffered due to Jormag's icebrood back in the personal story. We could even learn more about jotun discoveries and inventions from the previous dragonrise, perhaps figuring out more about their findings on the relationships between Elder Dragons and stars, or how they originally came up with the fire magic of the jotun scrolls that are so effective against Jormag and its minions. :)

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    I wouldn't necessarily write off a potential connection just yet. Looking back at how three Elder Dragons were defeated, we find something curious:

    I honestly suspect that the power needed to defeat Jormag is going to come from the Spirits of the Wild, and the Jotun magic infused bow. So far, Anet has set Braham on the same path that Asgeir was set on, and both have already done several of the same things. Unlike Asgeir however, who had all of his companions die, which left him alone to be manipulated by Jormag, we and Braham obviously wont die(or at least stay dead), and thus, wont be manipulated to give up, showing that Asgier's wondering in his journal if he could have beaten Jormag, and the Dragon just tricked him, are right.

    What's even more interesting is that at 1:06 in the trailer we see what appears to be a krait (to the "southeast" of the foreground norn) sinking into the depths, so this may suggest some krait involvement in a future episode.

    I can see why people think it looks like a Krait, but I'm not so sure.

    It will be interesting to find out what roles centaurs and potentially krait play in the saga.

    So far, the Icebrood Saga has largely been the "Far North" expansion. Covering the Charr Homelands, Far Shiverpeaks, and, now, the Woodland Cascades. Given that I haven't seen Anet mention any sort of map expansion northward for IBS, that doesn't leave a lot of room for new areas.

    • Episode 4 will obviously be the northern half of Dirzzlewood, and us trying, and failing, to stop Bangar from waking Jormag, as well as the end of the Charr civil war as a large civil war. I doubt Bangar is going to get more defectors now that the secrets out that he turning everyone on his side into Icebrood.
    • Episodes 5 and 6 will likely be a split map situation with Bjora and Drizzlewood are. Most likely this map will be in the main part of the Woodland Cascades, the middle of Centaur lands. Narratively I would expect this to be the Tangled Depths/Thunderhead Peaks section of the story, where we find some sort of mcguffin needed to beat Jormag. Much like how Tangled Depths gave us Rata Novus during the Mordremoth plot, which alerted us to the fact the dragons have weaknesses, and how Thunderhead Peaks gave us the Dragonsblood weapon forge to mass produce said weapons against Kralk.What this Mcguffin is I am not 100% sure. Given the fact that the Spirits channeling their powers through Asgeir, and now Braham, is a plot point, maybe we need some Centaur mysticism to help us get that power, or more of it, or to help Braham do it better. Maybe something happens to the bow at the end of episode 4(which is when I suspect we will get it back) and we need the centaurs help to fix it along with the above. I suspect that at least some of the centaurs will have reconsidered the whole war with humanity thing, its been like 8 years since they lost.
    • Then we will have the big Jormag fight in episode 7. Probably in the giant ice lake in the middle of the Far Shiverpeaks that every map so far has been circling around.

    Somewhere in all that we will have visits by Bear and Snow Leopard spirits where they will teach us some sort of lesson like Raven and Wolf did. Anet has also commented that, after episode 4, they plan to do something like the player engaging Season 1 content, except, this time it will stick around. Given the current plot, there may be some sort of Khan-Ur election thing held. And we are probably going to get another "Visions of the Past" update as well. their whole wording around the first one, and the subtitled nature of the first one, implies more.

    So that I what I guess the Centaurs will do, nature magic stuff to help us fight Jormag/commune with the Spirits.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    Somewhere in all that we will have visits by Bear and Snow Leopard spirits where they will teach us some sort of lesson like Raven and Wolf did. Anet has also commented that, after episode 4, they plan to do something like the player engaging Season 1 content, except, this time it will stick around. Given the current plot, there may be some sort of Khan-Ur election thing held. And we are probably going to get another "Visions of the Past" update as well. their whole wording around the first one, and the subtitled nature of the first one, implies more.

    If there is such a vote, I hope they don't link unrelated things together. The general majority view at the time was that Kiel was the preferred candidate for the Council, but Abaddon was the preferred fractal, and the first consideration won out. By the end of Season 1, Gnashblade was practically a Captain himself as well, so the only thing that's really mattered is that ArenaNet has stuck their heels in about not doing the Abaddon fractal.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The general majority view at the time was that Kiel was the preferred candidate for the Council, but Abaddon was the preferred fractal, and the first consideration won out.

    I recall seeing numerous people pleading, BEGGING, for anything BUT more human god related stuff during the election. I remember seeing a lot more support for the reactor fractal then the Abbadon one.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    Those people were silly.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The general majority view at the time was that Kiel was the preferred candidate for the Council, but Abaddon was the preferred fractal, and the first consideration won out.

    I recall seeing numerous people pleading, BEGGING, for anything BUT more human god related stuff during the election. I remember seeing a lot more support for the reactor fractal then the Abbadon one.

    I recall the opposite. It was rare for me to see someone who supported Thaumanova fractal over Abaddon's fall fractal, and those that did were almost always initially believing that "Abaddon's fall fractal" meant a revamp/port-to-GW2 of the final mission of Nightfall and wanted Thaumanova because they "didn't want repeating content of what's still there", and would change opinions when informed that it meant the war of the gods in 1 BE.

    Granted at the time, the limitation of my interaction with the community out of game was to the official forums' general, living world, and lore sections.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The general majority view at the time was that Kiel was the preferred candidate for the Council, but Abaddon was the preferred fractal, and the first consideration won out.

    I recall seeing numerous people pleading, BEGGING, for anything BUT more human god related stuff during the election. I remember seeing a lot more support for the reactor fractal then the Abbadon one.

    There's a reason why I said 'majority view' and not 'consensus'. There were people on both sides, but the majority seemed to want the Abaddon fractal.

    The point is, though, that in retrospect it feels like a bait-and-switch. At the time, it felt like the choice of Captain's Council seat would be the thing that would matter more. It turned out that that particular choice hasn't had much effect on the story at all (ArenaNet pretty much said that the main effect would have been that LA's defences would have been a bit better with Gnashblade due to him investing some of his personal wealth into them, but not enough to make a real difference), while it's the fractal choice that stuck with us.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    Forgive me if you can OP, but I read your post as though it were written in alternating upper and lower case letters. We are not even half way through this season and the Charr civil war is clearly wrapping up. You are making up the requirement that a story about two races must represent each equally at any given time.

    I think Jormag will die but the way they die may surprise us. The way Elder dragons have been portrayed has changed significantly and Jormag's death could be an important pivot if we are transitioning into a more nuanced story where partnering with Elder dragons or forcing one to surrender is possible. I could see us convincing Jormag that, with their help, we could end the Elder dragon cycle. Bangar goes crazy at the thought of the Commander with two Elder dragons, feels betrayed by Jormag, and kills Jormag.

    Braham's bow and other possibly potent anti-dragon weapons are a problem. After the Commander's experience with the Dragonsblood Spear, the bow and similar weapons would have been closely guarded. I am expecting the writers to continue the eroding of the importance of the bow that they started in the first Vision's of the Past. If they want to portray the Commander and their allies as rational, they must. If they want to portray themselves as doing more than recycling the same ideas, they must. However, I fear them going overboard. Perhaps the bow only works for Braham and they take his arm. That would be something that causes me to close this book with a kitten you to the author.

    I think the player influenced content with be smaller than some people are expecting. It may include big decisions like next Khan-Ur, but will mostly be small decisions that could be applied to every zone.

    weathering's everything

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, the Saga isnt over yet. There is still space for the norn

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The point is, though, that in retrospect it feels like a bait-and-switch. At the time, it felt like the choice of Captain's Council seat would be the thing that would matter more. It turned out that that particular choice hasn't had much effect on the story at all (ArenaNet pretty much said that the main effect would have been that LA's defences would have been a bit better with Gnashblade due to him investing some of his personal wealth into them, but not enough to make a real difference), while it's the fractal choice that stuck with us.

    Its an MMO, no choice you make matters. Just like any choice on who becomes Khan-Ur will be 100% irrelevant to how the rest of the game turns out, and they will just make up a different excuse to why X Khan-Ur does the same thing had we chosen someone else to be Khan-Ur.

    That being said, I never had a hat in the Captain's race. Not only did I hate everything about LWS1 that I had stopped playing before that point, but I don't play fractals, so it never mattered to me which one we got.

  • Bealis.6023Bealis.6023 Member ✭✭

    @blackheartgary.8605 said:
    and finally... The commander. In the recent Years, the Commander has seen things and has begun to slightly, increasingly, unravel. Cursing, shouting at Dragon's Watch members, and making decisions that have ultimately led to the death of several prominent members of Tyria. Let's Not forget this for a moment... and consider the fact that Palawa Joko's claims were entirely 100% true about the commander. Everyone shrugged this off EXCEPT the commander. "whispers in the dark" revealed that to us. The commander has faced obstacle after obstacle without break, without letup... and the time it has taken for them to absorb everything that has happened since zhaitan has has not completely sunk in. and that will happen soon.

    Hey, I know this is an older thread, but this made me chuckle a bit. You know that ironicaly both Joko and Jormag are master manipulators, and you would specifically take them for a word :) If you remember at Bjora, almost everyone wanted to "rest" at that point, so commander wasnt alone at that. Narrative seemed to indicate that Jormag later focused on the commander since he/she had seen a connection of the commander to Aurene.
    On the commanders "unraveling", I actually havent noticed anything specific in that regard. Quite interestingly, the commander seemed more cold and callous thorough the HoT storyline, how he/she talked to the soldiers or Caithe, since the whole situation was super grim. But soon enough commander managed to defeat Mordremoth in one part of overcoming the sad memories of his/her deceased master. Mordry would kill the commander if it wasnt the case, since it was a mind game. In the end you actually become a bit more relaxed when Aurene is around. So thats my take;) Either way you may have some different source or ideas outside the game :)

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bealis.6023 said:

    On the commanders "unraveling", I actually havent noticed anything specific in that regard. Quite interestingly, the commander seemed more cold and callous thorough the HoT storyline, how he/she talked to the soldiers or Caithe, since the whole situation was super grim. But soon enough commander managed to defeat Mordremoth in one part of overcoming the sad memories of his/her deceased master. Mordry would kill the commander if it wasnt the case, since it was a mind game. In the end you actually become a bit more relaxed when Aurene is around. So thats my take;) Either way you may have some different source or ideas outside the game :)

    I'm with you on this one. I'm sure a lot of it is due to writing constraints, as this isn't a single-player rpg that can make more interesting player-character choices, but the Commander feels pretty undaunted to me. I think the low point was what happened with Aurene in Thunderhead Peaks, but aside from/after that it's been the same old dust-yourself-off, power-of-friendship type message. Another low-ish point was a refusal to resume a leadership role in the Pact, but that wasn't even really a low point. The Commander seemed sincere about continuing the fight outside the confines of the Pact, and has backed that up with many living seasonss (and an expansion's) worth of pretty confident activity. Not really feeling any sort of significant unraveling.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    People asked for charr so that's what we get. Even tho it's not even good lol

  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭
    edited June 26, 2020

    @Kossage.9072 said:

    It will be interesting to find out what roles centaurs and potentially krait play in the saga. I'd love to see us meeting some friendly centaur rebels from the Centaur Alliance and help them dethrone the Modniir High Command (or a new War King if such has risen since Ulgoth's demise) so the Harathi and Tamini can no longer have to fear reprisals from the more dominating Modniir. Maybe we could even use good charr and sylvari as ambassadors to try to broker an armistice between humans and centaurs (as centaurs respect sylvari as nature spirits, and charr have experience detailing the benefits of a treaty with their former human enemies) while Jennah could provide evidence from Caudecus's seized letters in Season 3 to prove that Caudecus was the driving force behind the war on the humans' side while Jennah always preferred a more diplomatic solution to end hostilities without demeaning centaurs or taking over all their lands.

    >

    Only a few centaurs revere the sylvari as nature spirits.

    Noctis the Facemauler: Plant spirits! By the living soul of the earth, I did not think it to be true.
    Cai: Spirits of the land, that's us. We are angry at the humans of Ascalon Settlement. We've used our magic to chase the humans away.
    Cai: See for yourselves! The gates are open and the streets are empty. Go there, centaur, and claim your prize.
    Centaur: Noctis! The humans are fleeing into the hills. The spirit tells truth! The village is undefended!
    Noctis the Facemauler: Gallop to the human settlement immediately. Bless you, spirits! The Harathi will long remember your deeds!

    It see It seems that only Noctis believes that they are plant spirits though he may have lost that idea afterwards.

    Cai: Perfect. The centaur defense crumbles...just as the Seraph swoop back in to retake the town.
    Noctis the Facemauler: The Seraph are coming! Curse those trickster spirits! Retreat, and fight another day!

    The centaurs have heard rumours of the emergence of the sylvari, but do not yet know what to make of them. Some, at least, believe the sylvari to be spirits of the land.

    Renegade Rework - A fan-made project including artwork and Wiki

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    Awesome thread, made by DonArkanio.6419 , a revenant rework.

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  • DKRathalos.9625DKRathalos.9625 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes sure Charr got some civil war going on because of Bangar's action but I feel like the closer we get to jormag, Norn part will take a bigger role here, we just have to wait.
    Like the other people already said we are not even half done, there is plenty more.