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Stats & Gear are the biggest issues for WvW

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  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I do 14k death's justice in WvW without even using food or potions and have 17.6k HP. In SPvP I do 9k. and have 16.6k HP using the same "gear", marauders in every slot and marauders amulet in SPvP. If I went pure zerker glass, I'm sure I could do enough damage to ONE SHOT my marauder build. The Damage: HP ratio of "balanced" builds is out of whack in WvW, turning it into 1 shots or invincible tanks. This creates an unhealthy game.

    Go roam in WvW and tell me what builds you often see, I guarantee it's mostly people playing pure glass 1 shotting or trailblazer bunkers.

    And I'm sure ANET hasn't abandoned their goal of toning down damage via nerfing coefficients et al, they are just not moving as quickly as we hoped they would when they announced their intentions early 2020 in tackling outliers. None of that has to do with gear.

    More to the point, WvW cannot be balanced..ever. No really, it just cannot be done, and I'll explain why.

    In Conquest mode you have two teams, 5 players vs 5 players. You never have 6 players vs 5 players, and 7 players vs 5 players is just right out. Both teams are full at the start of the map, and nobody else can join in the match already in progress. The maps are small, and the goal of the mode is to accumulate points during a match that has a beginning and essentially an end, and that is done most efficiently via node control.

    Now lets look at WvW, and we'll use EBG map.

    How many teams? 3
    How many players vs players? You don't know
    When will either side gain or lose players? You don't know
    What is the goal of the map? You don't know

    You are talking about a game mode that has a continuous match for 7 days, 24 hours a day, involving 3 different servers across 4 different maps, where the only population control is the MAX amount of players per server allowed on a map 5x larger than sPvP maps, and where there isn't a singular objective or method of 'winning'!

    And you think the major contributor to the disparity in balance between PvP and WvW is gear?

    Should ANET work to reduce/remove outliers? Abilities that over and under perform? Absolutely? But balance? Impossible.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    No amulet system for WvW. That's for PvP, WvW is endgame and that is building sets that work towards your defined role, playstyle, fightsize and I would daresay connection. If anything we could use some more stat combos. And no I don't think they should be balancing around zerker as the core set either.

    No one said anything about an amulet system...just re-examining player power in WvW.

    Sorry there were a number of amulet threads coming up and I mixed this one as one of those.

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Go roam in WvW and tell me what builds you often see, I guarantee it's mostly people playing pure glass 1 shotting or trailblazer bunkers.

    I roam and havoc mostly. That said as a roamer I wasn't getting one-shot before the balance patch which is why I am typically concerned that we are balancing to the zerk mindset. I try and balance defense and offense, and while doing that, I was not getting one-shot as a roamer facing other roamers even before the balance nerf patch. Now before balance patch had about 23 toons that I could choose to run with in WvW. After the patch, all but 2-3 need some rework yet. Granted I also run tankier because my weekends mean I am playing on a paper clip connection so have to plan on a slow internet connection, but not so tanky that I don't kill peeps and don't hesitate to roam. Playing also in sPvP I feel that the removal of more defensive amulets was less about balance and more it didn't promote faster combat while they were trying to promote esports and in that they limited more builds and further dumbed down the game. Wouldn't want the same fate in WvW.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    Quickness Vault 10k - > vault 10k from stealth 1-2s death.

    10k malicious backstab from stealth + 5k shadowshot + 7k heartseker from stealth, nearly instant death(~3 seconds).

    This kind of damage doesn't exist in SPvP without the person being a free kill.

    The issue is, you're a free kill in WvW unless you have 25k+ hp and 3k+ toughness so people are either 11k hp glass cannons or trailblazer/minstrel tanks.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Quickness Vault 10k - > vault 10k from stealth 1-2s death.

    10k malicious backstab from stealth + 5k shadowshot + 7k heartseker from stealth, nearly instant death(~3 seconds).

    This kind of damage doesn't exist in SPvP without the person being a free kill.

    So, what you’re saying is that we need to nerf thief?

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Quickness Vault 10k - > vault 10k from stealth 1-2s death.

    10k malicious backstab from stealth + 5k shadowshot + 7k heartseker from stealth, nearly instant death(~3 seconds).

    This kind of damage doesn't exist in SPvP without the person being a free kill.

    So, what you’re saying is that we need to nerf thief?

    Not really, mesmer and soulbeast can do this type of damage too.

    However, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin's_Signet should 100% be nerfed to the ground in WvW/PvP. 540 power is absurd.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Quickness Vault 10k - > vault 10k from stealth 1-2s death.

    10k malicious backstab from stealth + 5k shadowshot + 7k heartseker from stealth, nearly instant death(~3 seconds).

    This kind of damage doesn't exist in SPvP without the person being a free kill.

    So, what you’re saying is that we need to nerf thief?

    Not really, mesmer and soulbeast can do this type of damage too.

    However, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin's_Signet should 100% be nerfed to the ground in WvW/PvP. 540 power is absurd.

    I will not disagree there lol. Apparently CmC said in a stream that Warrior is "close to the ideal power level" which if true then things like Assassin's Signet are due for even larger nerfs than what we saw happen in Feb.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Quickness Vault 10k - > vault 10k from stealth 1-2s death.

    10k malicious backstab from stealth + 5k shadowshot + 7k heartseker from stealth, nearly instant death(~3 seconds).

    This kind of damage doesn't exist in SPvP without the person being a free kill.

    The issue is, you're a free kill in WvW unless you have 25k+ hp and 3k+ toughness so people are either 11k hp glass cannons or trailblazer/minstrel tanks.

    Vault hits you for 10k with 2700 armor and permaprot?

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    More to the point, WvW cannot be balanced..ever. No really, it just cannot be done, and I'll explain why.

    That really depends on how you define "balance" though. In this element it is often defined as "tolerable differences". With that in mind, WvW has been balanced many times. It has also been imbalanced many times.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Quickness Vault 10k - > vault 10k from stealth 1-2s death.

    10k malicious backstab from stealth + 5k shadowshot + 7k heartseker from stealth, nearly instant death(~3 seconds).

    This kind of damage doesn't exist in SPvP without the person being a free kill.

    The issue is, you're a free kill in WvW unless you have 25k+ hp and 3k+ toughness so people are either 11k hp glass cannons or trailblazer/minstrel tanks.

    Vault hits you for 10k with 2700 armor and permaprot?

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/737797542967902288/738149232589930496/unknown.png
    Yes.

  • jpsssss.7530jpsssss.7530 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    At it's core, WvW PvP is massively imbalanced due to gear stats. This is the very first and most important aspect of any PvP game mode, and I feel WvW fails at it and needs to re-examine gear stats. Without the core, the rest of the game mode falls apart entirely.

    There's a lot worse things than stats. As it is the "balance team" is grossly incompetent and shows blatant favoritism towards certain classes, and spite towards others... The numbers are so high because there are 80 possible enemies on a given map compared to 5 in PvP or trash mobs. On top of that, PvP stats are free. It costs 100+ gold to convert a set of armor to minstrel's. Not make a whole new set. Just to convert. Stats should be more impactful if you spend 100+ gold on them.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Quickness Vault 10k - > vault 10k from stealth 1-2s death.

    10k malicious backstab from stealth + 5k shadowshot + 7k heartseker from stealth, nearly instant death(~3 seconds).

    This kind of damage doesn't exist in SPvP without the person being a free kill.

    The issue is, you're a free kill in WvW unless you have 25k+ hp and 3k+ toughness so people are either 11k hp glass cannons or trailblazer/minstrel tanks.

    Vault hits you for 10k with 2700 armor and permaprot?

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/737797542967902288/738149232589930496/unknown.png
    Yes.

    How much Vulnerability did you soak up trying to face tank those other players?

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    At it's core, WvW PvP is massively imbalanced due to gear stats. This is the very first and most important aspect of any PvP game mode, and I feel WvW fails at it and needs to re-examine gear stats. Without the core, the rest of the game mode falls apart entirely.

    There's a lot worse things than stats. As it is the "balance team" is grossly incompetent and shows blatant favoritism towards certain classes, and spite towards others... The numbers are so high because there are 80 possible enemies on a given map compared to 5 in PvP or trash mobs. On top of that, PvP stats are free. It costs 100+ gold to convert a set of armor to minstrel's. Not make a whole new set. Just to convert. Stats should be more impactful if you spend 100+ gold on them.

    Are you implying minstrels dont dominate the WvW meta?

    Also can you please make legendary armor proportionally better considering the cost. I should be more impactful when going 1vs50 and win the fight because in combination with the weapon I'm wearing like 5000+ gold worth of bling. I deserve to win.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Quickness Vault 10k - > vault 10k from stealth 1-2s death.

    10k malicious backstab from stealth + 5k shadowshot + 7k heartseker from stealth, nearly instant death(~3 seconds).

    This kind of damage doesn't exist in SPvP without the person being a free kill.

    The issue is, you're a free kill in WvW unless you have 25k+ hp and 3k+ toughness so people are either 11k hp glass cannons or trailblazer/minstrel tanks.

    Vault hits you for 10k with 2700 armor and permaprot?

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/737797542967902288/738149232589930496/unknown.png
    Yes.

    How much Vulnerability did you soak up trying to face tank those other players?

    Sometimes you're out of dodges, cc breaks, blocks, invuls or CCed and insta die from stealth.

  • jpsssss.7530jpsssss.7530 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    Are you implying minstrels dont dominate the WvW meta?

    Also can you please make legendary armor proportionally better considering the cost. I should be more impactful when going 1vs50 and win the fight because in combination with the weapon I'm wearing like 5000+ gold worth of bling. I deserve to win.

    First off yes there's a heavy minstrels presence due to how impactful heal/boon bots are and how necessary they are and that they need to stay alive. Even then staying alive in 25v25 fights can be a tall order.

    Second, buffing legendary armor to be better than ascended violates one of GW2's founding principles: Insane mindless grinding = bad. Part of the draw to this game is that the grind to get the best gear isn't that bad. The other part is that as it is if legendary gear was numerically better, I'm sure this game would die due to the insane amount of grinding that needs to be done to get it.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    Too much cleave, too much aoe, too much boon sharing, aoe cap. Gear/stats are probably one of smallest problem.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I will not disagree there lol. Apparently CmC said in a stream that Warrior is "close to the ideal power level" which if true then things like Assassin's Signet are due for even larger nerfs than what we saw happen in Feb.

    Well, that just confirms the theory in the Mesmer forums that CmC mains warrior and got bad touched too kitten often for his taste in WvW/PvP.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I will not disagree there lol. Apparently CmC said in a stream that Warrior is "close to the ideal power level" which if true then things like Assassin's Signet are due for even larger nerfs than what we saw happen in Feb.

    Well, that just confirms the theory in the Mesmer forums that CmC mains warrior and got bad touched too kitten often for his taste in WvW/PvP.

    Well TBH I disagree with him Re warrior, but seeing the mesmer balances you may not be wrong.