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Stop. Nerfing. Core Engi

Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

Holosmith is and has always been the problem. Core Engi is the worst core spec in the game next to core Ele, and it's due to the fact that it gets repeatedly nerfed to tone down it's overloaded Elite spec. I quit this spec months ago for this very reason.

Fix the root of the problem and stop nerfing a dead class.

Comments

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah it always was Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit.

    Let it give 5 might for 5 secs on a 5 sec interval instead when above the threshold to make stacking easier but not free.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    Flashbang was a terribly designed trait and ripe for abuse. Until it rightfully gets reworked I'm all for nerfs to it. Though, in all fairness, this wasn't even really a nerf because whoever decided this was the most prudent way to go must have never seen how fast-paced sPVP is. The duration would need to drop to like 0.5s for it to even count as a nerf.

  • santenal.1054santenal.1054 Member ✭✭✭

    Explosive Entrance and Flashbang are fairly new traits (25-2-2020) and were not the way to buff core engineer in a respectable manner.
    Such traits will only lead to them being nerfed again and little to no progress to the benefit of core engineer will have been made.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    @santenal.1054 said:
    Explosive Entrance and Flashbang are fairly new traits (25-2-2020) and were not the way to buff core engineer in a respectable manner.
    Such traits will only lead to them being nerfed again and little to no progress to the benefit of core engineer will have been made.

    I disagree. Flashbang fits well onto Core Engi's kit.

    Core Engi lacks defensive utilities by default. It needs to shore up that weakness using it's utility slots. Dedicating one slot to a dps kit like nades is a significant trade-off on it's own. In order to make the trade-off worth while, what it gains needs to be significant enough. In the case of nades, you could argue that the trade-off was not necessarily worth it.

    Enter flashbang, a grandmaster which allows core engi to apply a daze or blind on dodge. It helps mitigate the weakness of running a dps kit somewhat and gives core engi a way to defend itself. Even with such a powerful effect, it manages not to be oppressive because said weaknesses still exist. It's still vulnerable to pressure. Flashbang merely gives core engi a way to defend itself by blinding it's would-be attackers.

    Holo breaks these traits. It has plenty of defense baked into the traitline, a kit with several high damaging skills and its own might generation. When you factor all of that in, the utility from flashbang and the damage from explosive entrance and grenades becomes overkill.

    It's well designed for core, but terribly designed for holo.

    If it's not explosive it's elixirs. If it's not elixirs it's inventions, if it's not inventions it's rifle. Core engi continues to have it's tools gutted to tone down Holo when Anet needs to just nerf Holo so that it's not well beyond the power of engi's core traitlines.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @santenal.1054 said:
    Explosive Entrance and Flashbang are fairly new traits (25-2-2020) and were not the way to buff core engineer in a respectable manner.
    Such traits will only lead to them being nerfed again and little to no progress to the benefit of core engineer will have been made.

    I disagree. Flashbang fits well onto Core Engi's kit.

    Core Engi lacks defensive utilities by default. It needs to shore up that weakness using it's utility slots. Dedicating one slot to a dps kit like nades is a significant trade-off on it's own. In order to make the trade-off worth while, what it gains needs to be significant enough. In the case of nades, you could argue that the trade-off was not necessarily worth it.

    Enter flashbang, a grandmaster which allows core engi to apply a daze or blind on dodge. It helps mitigate the weakness of running a dps kit somewhat and gives core engi a way to defend itself. Even with such a powerful effect, it manages not to be oppressive because said weaknesses still exist. It's still vulnerable to pressure. Flashbang merely gives core engi a way to defend itself by blinding it's would-be attackers.

    Holo breaks these traits. It has plenty of defense baked into the traitline, a kit with several high damaging skills and its own might generation. When you factor all of that in, the utility from flashbang and the damage from explosive entrance and grenades becomes overkill.

    It's well designed for core, but terribly designed for holo.

    If it's not explosive it's elixirs. If it's not elixirs it's inventions, if it's not inventions it's rifle. Core engi continues to have it's tools gutted to tone down Holo when Anet needs to just nerf Holo so that it's not well beyond the power of engi's core traitlines.

    I have to disagree pretty hard, especially with the current version of EE and traits we have now. Blinds are WAY too readily accessible and every dodge guaranteeing a blinded attack isn't something any class should have, and that's not even considered that every attack after dodging could potentially daze of an opponent is at high health.

    The only way this EE could be remotely justified as a core tool, completely separate from anything Holo provides, is if it at least lost its charge on a missed attack. Shiro now loses charges of Enchanted Daggers on missed or blocked attacks and that's his heal skill, something crucial to his core kit seperate from any traits. There's no reason EE shouldn't function the same and lose its charge if the next attack after dodging misses. You get another after every dodge with no ICD and no risk of missing, so guaranteed damage and blinds like this is too strong and something needs to go.

  • dronte.3416dronte.3416 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Holosmith is and has always been the problem. Core Engi is the worst core spec in the game next to core Ele, and it's due to the fact that it gets repeatedly nerfed to tone down it's overloaded Elite spec. I quit this spec months ago for this very reason.

    Fix the root of the problem and stop nerfing a dead class.

    Welcome to the club of basically every other class (mesmer, war, ele etc.)

    It will always be happening. Anet does not care about core spec-s to be usable.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yet people are still here vouching for Core Engie's death, unbelievable. We are sacrificing whole classes and mechanics for ONE singular trait. The logic is impeccable.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    "DON'T HURT MY NICHE NON META BUILD JUST BECAUSE THE META BUILD WAS SUPER GOOD RUNNING ONE OF THE SAME COMPONENTS" is something we've heard since this game first launched. It happens. It happens to EVERYONE and EVERY class. Get over it.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    "DON'T HURT MY NICHE NON META BUILD JUST BECAUSE THE META BUILD WAS SUPER GOOD RUNNING ONE OF THE SAME COMPONENTS" is something we've heard since this game first launched. It happens. It happens to EVERYONE and EVERY class. Get over it.

    "I had to suffer so everyone else should suffer too" is quite possibly the most selfish attitude you could have.

  • wasss.1208wasss.1208 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    "DON'T HURT MY NICHE NON META BUILD JUST BECAUSE THE META BUILD WAS SUPER GOOD RUNNING ONE OF THE SAME COMPONENTS" is something we've heard since this game first launched. It happens. It happens to EVERYONE and EVERY class. Get over it.

    The goal would be to give every spec a viable build. With the latest set of nerfs, they hurt the only build on core engi I found somewhat viable, and trust me, I tried a lot of builds, and I'm going to keep on trying out things...

    As for the complain from the core engi community, the main fustration probably comes from the fact that holo could be nerfed, and can still be nerfed, without touching core. The latest set of nerfs literally hurt core more, as the build I use spends ~80% of the time in grenade kit, as it doesn't have an another reliable way to apply pressure. Holo on the other hand only uses it when they need ranged pressure, or they want to burst by throwing everything out. Then they get into melee, swap to sword or forge, and deal much more damage than any glass core build could do, while having better sustain, thanks to several traits, and skills.

    All of these were called out by the engineer community. As for why they are untouched, I have no idea. One has to be really stubborn to think they know better than a bunch of players, who mostly play this profession.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    "DON'T HURT MY NICHE NON META BUILD JUST BECAUSE THE META BUILD WAS SUPER GOOD RUNNING ONE OF THE SAME COMPONENTS" is something we've heard since this game first launched. It happens. It happens to EVERYONE and EVERY class. Get over it.

    "I had to suffer so everyone else should suffer too" is quite possibly the most selfish attitude you could have.

    That's what balance is always going to end up doing in a game as complicated as this. Even if we don't touch Explosives at all and only nerf Holosmith The Right Way™ you'll still be hitting tons of other nonmeta holosmiths. There's going to be some poor chap in gold running something like a bad condi holo build that's going to be upset by whatever you might prescribe. That's just what balance looks like in a game this complicated. There's also no guarantee that even if you exclusively hit holo, core engineer free from holo as such a clear meta spec won't become good as the balance shifts around it or receives further reworks and then hey Explosive Entrance and Flashbang become problems again.

    And even without talking about Holosmith Explosive Entrance and Flashbang are uniquely toxic. For starters the thing is a minor trait that I've seen crit for 3k+. That's better than all of the mirage ambush attacks unless you're taking Infinite Horizon. Second, unlike other similar skills there's no avoiding it and flashbang. Unlike a thief venom it doesn't go away if they whiff attacks. Even if you avoid their next attack, it's always waiting there to proc on literally whatever skill they throw next. The only way to avoid it is to literally 100-0 the engineer in such a way they literally do not land a single attack. No chip damage. No autos.

    And as much as everyone hates Mirage's ambush mechanic, at least there's an attack that you can avoid and it's gone when you do. Comparing a similar trait, Riddle of Sand (First ambush applies 2 stacks of confusion for 2 seconds, 353 damage on on skill use with Sinister Amulet refreshes on shatter) even ignoring the damage discrepancy between the two traits Riddle of Sand only proc's off specific attacks and can be consistently avoided. Explosive Entrance is inevitable and will hit you for serious damage, blind you, and maybe daze you for good measure off whatever they happen to tag you with whether it's a 1200 range Net Shot or a 10k Grenade Barrage or just getting clipped by one random grenade.

    Flashbang and Explosive Entrance are effectively guaranteed and inevitable serious damage and blind on dodge that's tucked on to any attack with zero restrictions. It's absolutely noxious regardless of whether core engie is currently meta right here right now.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Bingus.4236Bingus.4236 Member ✭✭

    Would it be outrageous to suggest that when you have an elite spec line active that that core traits that interact badly are different? For example explosive entrance would be different depending on whether holosmith was selected or not.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @wasss.1208 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    "DON'T HURT MY NICHE NON META BUILD JUST BECAUSE THE META BUILD WAS SUPER GOOD RUNNING ONE OF THE SAME COMPONENTS" is something we've heard since this game first launched. It happens. It happens to EVERYONE and EVERY class. Get over it.

    The goal would be to give every spec a viable build. With the latest set of nerfs, they hurt the only build on core engi I found somewhat viable, and trust me, I tried a lot of builds, and I'm going to keep on trying out things...

    As for the complain from the core engi community, the main fustration probably comes from the fact that holo could be nerfed, and can still be nerfed, without touching core. The latest set of nerfs literally hurt core more, as the build I use spends ~80% of the time in grenade kit, as it doesn't have an another reliable way to apply pressure. Holo on the other hand only uses it when they need ranged pressure, or they want to burst by throwing everything out. Then they get into melee, swap to sword or forge, and deal much more damage than any glass core build could do, while having better sustain, thanks to several traits, and skills.

    All of these were called out by the engineer community. As for why they are untouched, I have no idea. One has to be really stubborn to think they know better than a bunch of players, who mostly play this profession.

    Look at ele nerfs. They always gut things when it has a support spec that are barely related to the support spec and instead harm ALL build diversity from the class. Ele is the single most pathetic overnerfed class in the game with so few VIABLE builds it's silly.

    Base engineer is half the problem, but it's explosive entrance NOT grenades which they didn't touch because it's a new revamped trait line they just revamped and is off limits from balance adjustments.

  • @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    The only way this EE could be remotely justified as a core tool, completely separate from anything Holo provides, is if it at least lost its charge on a missed attack. Shiro now loses charges of Enchanted Daggers on missed or blocked attacks and that's his heal skill, something crucial to his core kit seperate from any traits. There's no reason EE shouldn't function the same and lose its charge if the next attack after dodging misses. You get another after every dodge with no ICD and no risk of missing, so guaranteed damage and blinds like this is too strong and something needs to go.

    Pretty sure it does.
    Although in saying that from the original 2v2 season when Flashbang was introduced.
    Additionally core engi kinda needs the damage from EE. Flashbang is strong but I'd argue core engi doesn't have a way to abuse it really, where its exceptionally exploitable by holo.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    I have to disagree pretty hard, especially with the current version of EE and traits we have now. Blinds are WAY too readily accessible and every dodge guaranteeing a blinded attack isn't something any class should have, and that's not even considered that every attack after dodging could potentially daze of an opponent is at high health.

    The only way this EE could be remotely justified as a core tool, completely separate from anything Holo provides, is if it at least lost its charge on a missed attack. Shiro now loses charges of Enchanted Daggers on missed or blocked attacks and that's his heal skill, something crucial to his core kit seperate from any traits. There's no reason EE shouldn't function the same and lose its charge if the next attack after dodging misses. You get another after every dodge with no ICD and no risk of missing, so guaranteed damage and blinds like this is too strong and something needs to go.

    Again, disagree. Blinds are a defensive tool just like any other. Currently, Ventari can apply blinds far more frequently than flashbang by simply moving the tablet around. No one complains about it because, much like core Engi, running Ventari makes the rev vulnerable to pressure. A few blinds are not going to change that.

    Engi gets very little for free. If it wants cleanse it has to dedicate a slot for it. If it wants blocks, it's forced to run pistol (arguably one of the worst weapons in the game) as its only mainhand option along with shield. Alternatively it can run tool-kit, but then it has to give up that slot for stunbreaks and cleanses. Want moblility comparable to other classes? You'll need to sacrifice a slot for rocket boots, and possibly a traitline for gadgets. This is why a tool as powerful as EE and Flashband aren't broken on core engi. Other classes have tools that are far more oppressive.

    Holo gets far too much for free. Without investing into any other traitlines or weapons, you have:

    Mobility, Might Generation, Sustain, CC, Burst Damage, Slight ranged pressure, Cleansing, Superspeed,

    If you give a Elite spec that can already do it all any tool that can remotely be thought of as "strong" it's going to quickly fall into the realm of oppressiveness.

    That's why I advocate to nerf Holo before nerfing core. It's far more problematic.

  • wasss.1208wasss.1208 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    Look at ele nerfs. They always gut things when it has a support spec that are barely related to the support spec and instead harm ALL build diversity from the class. Ele is the single most pathetic overnerfed class in the game with so few VIABLE builds it's silly.

    Yeah, core ele is an another one that is left in the dust because of its elit specs. It is kind of sad that the two core spec are commonly known as the worst specs in the game. Sadly I don't know that spec enough to propose changes that would help it, but I'm pretty sure someone already did that in the Elementalist subforum. Devs should be pointed into that direction. Or a PvP based rework/balance/tweak discussion could be started here about that matter, since it is confirmed that CMC reads this part of the forum.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:
    Yet people are still here vouching for Core Engie's death, unbelievable. We are sacrificing whole classes and mechanics for ONE singular trait. The logic is impeccable.

    Stop with this nonsense about core stuff vs elite. Explosive Entrance is ridiculous and needs to be toned down, just because it's not something exclusive to Holo doesn't mean it's not bad for the game. Core Revenant was able to stack resistance without the use of any elite specs, its viability is irrelevant, some things are baked into the core class that are a problem and Explosive Entrance is one of them.

    It's not nonsense when it directly hits the viability of the class in more ways than YOU can even see. Are we really going to play stupid and not even see the fact this forums probably has killed far more builds AND classes than it was even worth mentioning?

    Don't worry sweeties, you'll get your wish soon enough and matchmaking will be a graveyard. There's already enough people on here admitting they don't even play the game anymore, so all your complaints will fall on deaf ears.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    "DON'T HURT MY NICHE NON META BUILD JUST BECAUSE THE META BUILD WAS SUPER GOOD RUNNING ONE OF THE SAME COMPONENTS" is something we've heard since this game first launched. It happens. It happens to EVERYONE and EVERY class. Get over it.

    "I had to suffer so everyone else should suffer too" is quite possibly the most selfish attitude you could have.

    That's what balance is always going to end up doing in a game as complicated as this. Even if we don't touch Explosives at all and only nerf Holosmith The Right Way™ you'll still be hitting tons of other nonmeta holosmiths. There's going to be some poor chap in gold running something like a bad condi holo build that's going to be upset by whatever you might prescribe. That's just what balance looks like in a game this complicated. There's also no guarantee that even if you exclusively hit holo, core engineer free from holo as such a clear meta spec won't become good as the balance shifts around it or receives further reworks and then hey Explosive Entrance and Flashbang become problems again.

    So, because you cant have literally 0 collateral (which Im already gonna go ahead and call kitten on, since you in fact can hit what distinguishes them, or better yet, increase damage across the board so that what Holosmiths weakness is supposed to be can actually be a weakness again), you decided "lets not care about collateral at all"? Thhats just stupid.

    And even without talking about Holosmith Explosive Entrance and Flashbang are uniquely toxic. For starters the thing is a minor trait that I've seen crit for 3k+. That's better than all of the mirage ambush attacks unless you're taking Infinite Horizon. Second, unlike other similar skills there's no avoiding it and flashbang. Unlike a thief venom it doesn't go away if they whiff attacks. Even if you avoid their next attack, it's always waiting there to proc on literally whatever skill they throw next. The only way to avoid it is to literally 100-0 the engineer in such a way they literally do not land a single attack. No chip damage. No autos.

    Uh, it definitely gets consumed by blocks. You can see here that he hits the guardian with it up, the attack gets blocked, and EE is removed. And while I couldnt conclusively find anything for misses or dodges, based on 1:40 and 1:58 it does look as though evades and blinds do in fact consume it as well. Actually, I looked a bit further, and here you can see that the enemy evades his hit, and EE is again removed. So Im afraid that that is an urban myth. I dont know how, or why it was started, but its just not true. It works like thieves venoms.

    Flashbang and Explosive Entrance are effectively guaranteed and inevitable serious damage and blind on dodge that's tucked on to any attack with zero restrictions. It's absolutely noxious regardless of whether core engie is currently meta right here right now.

    See above.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    "DON'T HURT MY NICHE NON META BUILD JUST BECAUSE THE META BUILD WAS SUPER GOOD RUNNING ONE OF THE SAME COMPONENTS" is something we've heard since this game first launched. It happens. It happens to EVERYONE and EVERY class. Get over it.

    "I had to suffer so everyone else should suffer too" is quite possibly the most selfish attitude you could have.

    That's what balance is always going to end up doing in a game as complicated as this. Even if we don't touch Explosives at all and only nerf Holosmith The Right Way™ you'll still be hitting tons of other nonmeta holosmiths. There's going to be some poor chap in gold running something like a bad condi holo build that's going to be upset by whatever you might prescribe. That's just what balance looks like in a game this complicated. There's also no guarantee that even if you exclusively hit holo, core engineer free from holo as such a clear meta spec won't become good as the balance shifts around it or receives further reworks and then hey Explosive Entrance and Flashbang become problems again.

    And even without talking about Holosmith Explosive Entrance and Flashbang are uniquely toxic. For starters the thing is a minor trait that I've seen crit for 3k+. That's better than all of the mirage ambush attacks unless you're taking Infinite Horizon. Second, unlike other similar skills there's no avoiding it and flashbang. Unlike a thief venom it doesn't go away if they whiff attacks. Even if you avoid their next attack, it's always waiting there to proc on literally whatever skill they throw next. The only way to avoid it is to literally 100-0 the engineer in such a way they literally do not land a single attack. No chip damage. No autos.

    And as much as everyone hates Mirage's ambush mechanic, at least there's an attack that you can avoid and it's gone when you do. Comparing a similar trait, Riddle of Sand (First ambush applies 2 stacks of confusion for 2 seconds, 353 damage on on skill use with Sinister Amulet refreshes on shatter) even ignoring the damage discrepancy between the two traits Riddle of Sand only proc's off specific attacks and can be consistently avoided. Explosive Entrance is inevitable and will hit you for serious damage, blind you, and maybe daze you for good measure off whatever they happen to tag you with whether it's a 1200 range Net Shot or a 10k Grenade Barrage or just getting clipped by one random grenade.

    Flashbang and Explosive Entrance are effectively guaranteed and inevitable serious damage and blind on dodge that's tucked on to any attack with zero restrictions. It's absolutely noxious regardless of whether core engie is currently meta right here right now.

    unosomething is right, as far as I know blocking and invulnerability consumes EE.
    its safe to assume that dodging and possibly blinding works too

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bingus.4236 said:
    Would it be outrageous to suggest that when you have an elite spec line active that that core traits that interact badly are different? For example explosive entrance would be different depending on whether holosmith was selected or not.

    Yes. New players are having trouble adjusting to all the PvP splits already. Temper with traits aswell and you scare most of them off for good.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    Community and Anet in a nutshell:
    -Anet: "Core is fine"
    -Community: "Yeah but core + elite is broken"
    -Anet: "Let's nerf core"
    -Community: "Exacte... wait what ?!?"