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Should they add a DPS meter? - [Merged]

uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 29, 2020 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

I see a lot of threads about DPS meter, and some asking if it should be banned.
Just like people with balance, asking about it and asking about nerfs.

Nobody talks about buffs instead of nerfs, like BUFF Warrior
Nobody talks about ADDING instead of banning, like ADDING dps meter.

People using arcdps, the high end casual that is, the ones doing raids and a few of those doing fractals.
I'd compare it to Diablo2 maphack, pretty much everybody used it in Diablo2.
In GW2 everybody says Anet says nothing on DPS meter, just like Diablo2.

Why not just add it to the game. People going to find someway to look at DPS,
just add it to the game and have people get good.

One thing I hate about MMORPG, so much button smashing, have to smash like 20 buttons to do a rotation, I thought GW2 was suppose to be different.
Have to smash about 20 buttons just to do efficient dps. What happened to to 1-10 buttons?

Speaking of which,
new Expansion = usually means more buttons to smash.

Just add the DPS meter, make it easier to do efficient DPS, I didn't play GW2 to memorize long attack chains just to do raids and fractals.
Add DPS meter
Make it easier to do DPS

Make it more about (WHICH attack to do and when, not memorize a 20 button smash attack chain

<13456

Comments

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Speaking of which,
    new Expansion = usually means more buttons to smash.

    depends on the profession, but usually for GW2 specifically, no, because to put it simply, we don't get gear and level cap increases just new elite specialisations for an expansion. so we still get roughly the same amount of utilities and weapon skills (these are mostly static) for each profession even if they add new elite specs.

    a new e-spec usually introduces a new build but it usually doesn't make a profession's DPS rotation (for example) any more complex than it already is compared to it's current viable builds, and if it ever does so, not very significantly at that. a new elementalist elite spec for example will likely have a rotation on par with weaver and if it ever was harder to pull properly, it's not like it's three times longer than what we already have (it's a possibility but very/highly unlikely since we still have the same amount of skills and utilities and cooldowns come into play)

    at most we'd get new skills on the profession bar (F2~F5) granted by an elite spec -- but that only adds what? 4 buttons at most (and it's not for all professions, some still stay at F1 and F2 like thief, and for those with an F1 to F5 already would likely stay the same or may get less/get simplified)

  • it would have to be a thorough gauge that measures overall activity, and highlights other important actions like Reviving, healing, Defiance bar damage and specific mechanics based on the encounter

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    Look at this,
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/
    Opening, 26 buttons to smash...
    Did I mention that is an OPENING
    After the opening, 18 button loop you have to memorize.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/guardian/power/
    Another profession
    OPENING, 7 buttons to smash, ok this is manageable
    Now the loop 19 BUTTONS TO memorize and SMASH

    This is where the DPS meter comes into effect, how good are people at smashing 19 to 26 buttons.
    If you smashing very good, your dps will be good, if you can't memorize, lost track where you are in the loop etc. DPS is bad.

    Thats why I'm suggesting make the attack chain smaller, under 10.
    MEMORIZING a attack loop isn't skill.

    If you make attack chains smaller, everyone will be doing what they suppose to be doing, there wont be "this guy is doing 12k less than average, boot him"
    all because he sucks at MEMORIZING an attack loop.

    I say give us DPS meter, people going to use it anyways, people ALREADY use it, its helpful, its a benchmark.
    Make our attack chains smaller.

    Our attack chains werent this long when it was just core.
    Like I said new expansions usually brings more skills, and longer attack chains, this is a bad thing if you ask me.
    I'm all for new skills, but I don't want to memorize 15+ chain.

    I'd rather use skills based on the situation. a few SKILLS means a lot, not 15 attack chain if you want to maintain the 25K DPS.
    I'm not enjoying the game, its all about my DPS with these long attack chains we have to memorizing.
    I'd like to be enjoying the game and not worry about is this my 8th attack in the chain, can i do the full chain or must I improvise

    ..
    Also, if we going to keep going with this long attack chains, just give us macros. So people whining about someone not doing enough dps, they can just say "hey, use this macro, thats it, now you do 25k dps like your suppose to do, it will MEMORIZE the 19 button attack chain for you and do it"
    Attack chains are too long, thats why everyone isn't doing the damage they should be doing. Some people coming back, some people never look at attack chains, they just use the gear, etc.
    19 attack chain is pretty dang long, not their fault.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm confused, how is a DPS meter going to help with rotations?

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm confused, how is a DPS meter going to help with rotations?

    Lets people know whatever they currently doing is bad, and when someone tells them the correct rotation, they and the other people can see, that the DPS more efficient or worse.

    But thats not the problem, the attack rotation being too long is the REAL solution to this.
    Knowing people do bad or good dps doesn't solve anything.
    Close that wide dps gap is the solution and it starts with attack chains being too long.

    A DPS meter will help with making new builds too. Not everyone has to follow snowcrows or be a pro to go outside the meta/suggested build.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Like I said new expansions usually brings more skills, and longer attack chains, this is a bad thing if you ask me.
    I'm all for new skills, but I don't want to memorize 15+ chain.

    if you even read my post i'm saying, new expansions wont make any profession gain more skills than it already has. at most you'd get new profession-specials (F1~F5) but that's about it

    basically you still have 5 weapons skills (another 5 if your rotation has a weapon swap), and 4 utilities and 1 elite.

    if you're an elementalist or an engineer you'll probably have kits or elements to swap around but that's about it. -- elementalist probably wont get more than 4 elements so that's 4 times 5 weapon skills = 20 total weapon skills with which only 5 can be active at any given time: it's been like that for core - it's like that for tempest and it's the same for weaver (it'll be combo elements for weaver but still no more than 5 weapon skills to press at any given time).

    other professions don't have kits or elements to change their weapon skills so they rely on weapon swaps so max of 10 skills for them.

    all professions have a total of 4 utilities and 1 elite skill. you can't swap these in-combat so they remain static (in quantity) in a build's rotation


    we're not like FF14 or SWTOR where you need to have 2 to 3 hotbars active to fill with skills your rotation/build uses

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Like I said new expansions usually brings more skills, and longer attack chains, this is a bad thing if you ask me.
    I'm all for new skills, but I don't want to memorize 15+ chain.

    if you even read my post i'm saying, it wont make any profession gain more skills than it already has. at most you'd get new profession-specials (F1~F5) but that's about it

    basically you still have 5 weapons skills (another 5 if your rotation has a weapon swap), and 4 utilities and 1 elite.

    if you're an elementalist or an engineer you'll probably have kits or elements to swap around but that's about it. -- elementalist probably wont get more than 4 elements so that's 4 times 5 weapon skills = 20 weapon skills, it's been like that for core - it's like that for tempest and it's the same for weaver.

    other professions don't have kits or elements to change their weapon skills so they rely on weapon swaps so max of 10 skills for them.

    all professions have a total of 4 utilities and 1 elite skill. you can't swap these in-combat so they remain static (in quantity) in a build's rotation

    Isn't as simple as you make it.
    They starting to make it where you enter some state and all sudden your skills change.

    Back then, warrior, press 2 that's it besides every now and then use utility. As long as your pressing 2 your doing just as good of a job as everyone else.
    Now thats a little not much, I'd say the sweet spot is 4-8 button attack chains.
    19, 26 different buttons for an opening, etc. Thats too much.

    I wouldn't be surprised if next expansion had super saiyan mode, you have all your normal stuff, then you change state like I mentioned above. Now all sudden you have whole new set of skills.

    More buttons to smash.
    Even longer attack loop.

    Equals = this ele doing 12k dps, this other ele doing 38k.
    Dps meter I think is issue, get rid of it, yada yada.
    Nothing to do with DPS meter, its about this long attack chain.

    Yes, I think we should have a meter, so we can tell how efficient we are and helps with making builds other than meta/suggested,
    but if people want it gone just because they don't want people to know they bad,
    they going to be bad regardless,
    fix the long attack loops, make it shorter, should be 4-8 button loop. 26, 19+ is overkill.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/power/
    10 button opener
    25 button smashing loop

    seems like attack loop is 18 - 26 buttons to smash to complete a loop.
    average joes casuals going to remember 18-26 buttons? Ya I don't think so either.
    They could play the game for months and still struggle to remember 18-26 combo loops.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Isn't as simple as you make it.
    They starting to make it where you enter some state and all sudden your skills change.

    this mostly applies to elementalist and engineer like i said.

    revenant is something like this with legend swapping but you're only limited to 2 legends at any given time, so your utilities are still limited in number and remain the same as it was whether it's herald, renegade or core revenant.

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Back then, warrior, press 2 that's it besides every now and then use utility. As long as your pressing 2 your doing just as good of a job as everyone else.
    Now thats a little not much, I'd say the sweet spot is 4-8 button attack chains.
    19, 26 different buttons for an opening, etc. Thats too much.

    what i'm saying is those 19 or 26 buttons to press wont increase anymore than it already is (and if it ever does change, it wont be much, if your build uses 20 skill rotation and the new elite spec brings you a 25 skill rotation, it wont be much of a difference to you) --- because we have a limit of 5 weapon skills (and another 5 for weapon swap) 4 utilities and 1 elite skill at a given time.

    and besides most of those rotations like the one you linked: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/guardian/power/ involve repeating a skill once it comes off of cooldown it's not like you have 19 individual buttons to press and bind on your keyboard. that loop rotation only has 9 unique buttons to press (the 1-2-3 combo counts as 1 button, same for it's weapon swap at the end of the rotation) --- i don't see where the issue is... you just repeat based on priority

  • Looks like other than a ingame dps meter the op has problems in memorizing rotations to get good dps(no problem with that. Completely understandable) and still hasnt met power daredevil build... which can pull very decent dps... smash only 1 button as much as u can x)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm confused, how is a DPS meter going to help with rotations?

    Lets people know whatever they currently doing is bad, and when someone tells them the correct rotation, they and the other people can see, that the DPS more efficient or worse.

    Those that can use a DPS meter to better themselves can already use ArcDPS to do so. Those that don't like DPS meters, won't magically like an in-game/official meter and use it to get better at the game.

    But thats not the problem, the attack rotation being too long is the REAL solution to this.
    Knowing people do bad or good dps doesn't solve anything.
    Close that wide dps gap is the solution and it starts with attack chains being too long.

    You are right, for above average players rotations need to be streamlined. But, other than skill balancing to help reduce reliance on rotations, there a few ways to help with this problem. All ways that are widely used in other mmorpgs

    For example, they can allow players to watch cooldowns of skills not visible on the skillbar. In this game you don't only have to remember which skill to use from those you can see, but you must also remember the cooldowns of your weapon swap skills and all other transform skills, like Engineer kits and Elementalist conjures. Allowing players some interface ability to "slot" skills to have their cooldown always visible is a great way to help rotations. That way you have much less skills to worry about and remember at all times, as all of them are visible in front of you. In all mmorpgs out there (that I've played) you can always see ALL your cooldowns, Anet decided to hide them to streamline the UI, but over years this backfired

    Another way is to highlight skills that are about to do the maximum damage, for example just like there is a red marker on skills out of range, they can add a green marker for skills that will do the most damage (tooltip/single target damage). in other mmorpgs you can use addons that tell you which skill is the next best to use, so even players that don't like rotations or don't have muscle memory can play the game and stay "competitive"

  • Problem with you people is you always think negative.
    You assume
    "Those that don't like DPS meters, won't magically like an in-game/official meter and use it to get better at the game."
    " Based on past performance, the ANet meter would be decidedly inferior to Arc and would be heavily monetized"
    You think people incapable of bettering themselves
    You think anet would monetize it

    Whats wrong with you, always thinking negative.

    "because we have a limit of 5 weapon skills (and another 5 for weapon swap) 4 utilities and 1 elite skill at a given time."
    You thinking negative too bro
    Mesmer F1-F4 abilities
    Other classes have F abilities too
    some of them they change form and its even more

    Why you being so negative bro

    It's like yall come here just to think about nerfing, removing, and negative
    Just like my PvP thread, none of them ever heard about BUFF because they all thinking negative and nerfing to solve balance.

    DPS meter worse than arc dps, I don't think so, it will be more simpler, all you need is average, they already provide a combat tab.
    Ya'll should try being positive for a chance.
    idk where you got the idea they would monetize this, thats too much negative thinking.

    ...
    hmm, maybe a speedometer,
    "NO! they would monetize that!"
    smh

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Problem with you people is you always think negative.
    Whats wrong with you, always thinking negative.

    the problem is you're not reading and understanding well what we all say.

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    "because we have a limit of 5 weapon skills (and another 5 for weapon swap) 4 utilities and 1 elite skill at a given time."
    You thinking negative too bro
    Mesmer F1-F4 abilities
    Other classes have F abilities too
    some of them they change form and its even more

    and i did mention about F abilities too if you just read my posts. i mentioned they can change and that for some classes they can still remain the same (like how thief has always had just F1 and F2). but yeah you don't read.

    and for the record i wasnt even being negative and no one here talked about nerfing or removing. in fact i was being positive by saying: a new expansion would not make a profession any more complicated to play than it already is. -- i don't know how you've missed that all this time. lol

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Look at this,
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/
    Opening, 26 buttons to smash...
    Did I mention that is an OPENING
    After the opening, 18 button loop you have to memorize.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/guardian/power/
    Another profession
    OPENING, 7 buttons to smash, ok this is manageable
    Now the loop 19 BUTTONS TO memorize and SMASH

    This is where the DPS meter comes into effect, how good are people at smashing 19 to 26 buttons.
    If you smashing very good, your dps will be good, if you can't memorize, lost track where you are in the loop etc. DPS is bad.

    Thats why I'm suggesting make the attack chain smaller, under 10.
    MEMORIZING a attack loop isn't skill.

    If you make attack chains smaller, everyone will be doing what they suppose to be doing, there wont be "this guy is doing 12k less than average, boot him"
    all because he sucks at MEMORIZING an attack loop.

    I say give us DPS meter, people going to use it anyways, people ALREADY use it, its helpful, its a benchmark.
    Make our attack chains smaller.

    Our attack chains werent this long when it was just core.
    Like I said new expansions usually brings more skills, and longer attack chains, this is a bad thing if you ask me.
    I'm all for new skills, but I don't want to memorize 15+ chain.

    I'd rather use skills based on the situation. a few SKILLS means a lot, not 15 attack chain if you want to maintain the 25K DPS.
    I'm not enjoying the game, its all about my DPS with these long attack chains we have to memorizing.
    I'd like to be enjoying the game and not worry about is this my 8th attack in the chain, can i do the full chain or must I improvise

    ..
    Also, if we going to keep going with this long attack chains, just give us macros. So people whining about someone not doing enough dps, they can just say "hey, use this macro, thats it, now you do 25k dps like your suppose to do, it will MEMORIZE the 19 button attack chain for you and do it"
    Attack chains are too long, thats why everyone isn't doing the damage they should be doing. Some people coming back, some people never look at attack chains, they just use the gear, etc.
    19 attack chain is pretty dang long, not their fault.

    The other problem is ping. I have a friend in the USA who can do more damage than me because his much lower ping means he can get his full rotation in during the time requirement, whereas I can't. Theoretically, we both should be able to do it - it's just he's 200 ms quicker than mine so he should finish his rotation 200ms earlier all things being equal - but it doesn't seem to be working that way. This was after spending two hours with him doing rotations on the stationary practice golem. This was chronomancer practice using multiple skills inside continuum split. We were using the exact same builds - his gear was better than mine, but that doesn't affect skill timing.

    Now, bring movement into the equation, and it's horrible.

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    Ping?
    Well make an ingame DPS meter.
    Have a command that shares your DPS and its colored differently so people know you aint lying.
    Maybe some allow DPS share checkbox, let others know your DPS and people type the command themselves and sees other peoples DPS.

    Now people far away you know there DPS, it now checks other people data from their client so ping is no longer an issue.
    They already have a combat log, so I don't want to hear "it would be a lot of work".
    Arcdps person gets it up in no time. he has a real job too.
    GW2 devs, they work on this game, doing it is what they do, they have access to everything they need too.

    If arcdps guy can get it done on his offtime quickly, an Anet dev can even quicker get it done.

  • keenedge.9675keenedge.9675 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    ArenaNet should shut down the 3rd party meters and create their own as (a free) part of the game

    This would allow them to more firmly police the GW2.exe system environment with no exceptions. Naive players don't understand that the use of ARCDPS risks their account to the whims of the ARCDPS support group.

    ( I still think DPS meters let people more easily tune their macro playback. )

    Moral Statute Machine: John Spartan, you are fined five credits for repeated violations of the verbal morality statute.

  • A DPS meter isn't going to change "button mashing". It's going to teach you rotations, which is just "which order to mash the buttons".

  • Personal DPS meters are FUN! They allow you to see numbers and feel powerful. Depending on the gear and rotations you can be attempting and it may even feel like you are doing the same damage but there is a lot of difference, if you have a meter you can enjoy actually seeing your numbers and finding out how to improve. I find it a huge addition and very fun to try and improve ones own gameplay and experience. Thank goodness for the training golem in Aerodrome.

  • @robertthebard.8150 said:
    A DPS meter isn't going to change "button mashing". It's going to teach you rotations, which is just "which order to mash the buttons".

    Yep, it helps people get better at knowing what to press next.
    Button smashing is what is ruining the enjoyment of the game though, too much focus on rotation rather than looking up at the game and enjoying it.
    If you a a really good player yes its easy, someone who just came back and played for a few weeks, not so much.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Adding a personal DPS meter that only the player can see would be a good thing.

    Adding a public DPS meter so everyone could always see everyone, would be a toxic thing.

    Whats wrong with public DPS meter?
    People are helpful too you know, don't always have to look at it like "they will make fun of you"
    ...
    "they will help you get better" happens too.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Ping?
    Well make an ingame DPS meter.
    Have a command that shares your DPS and its colored differently so people know you aint lying.
    Maybe some allow DPS share checkbox, let others know your DPS and people type the command themselves and sees other peoples DPS.

    Now people far away you know there DPS, it now checks other people data from their client so ping is no longer an issue.
    They already have a combat log, so I don't want to hear "it would be a lot of work".
    Arcdps person gets it up in no time. he has a real job too.
    GW2 devs, they work on this game, doing it is what they do, they have access to everything they need too.

    If arcdps guy can get it done on his offtime quickly, an Anet dev can even quicker get it done.

    I'm not sure why you apparently directed this at me. I'm not sure why you think this is a solution to ping problems, for example in phases where a boss goes invuln, I get that information about 150ms after everyone else, and same when the boss comes off invuln.

    Add in boss dynamics where aoes, that are randomly placed, appear on the floor with a 500ms warning.

    This all affects the ability to get off rotations that require speed between skills. And the rotations are the reason for higher DPS.

    So coming back to your earlier point about making the rotations shorter, yes that should help those of us with higher ping to some degree. However, even with a shorter rotation, we still get some problems: skills flashing (ah, the joy of lag spikes), and the wonderful experience of getting a firebrand book to open, only for it to immediately close even though we only hit the function/clicked the button once.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Adding a personal DPS meter that only the player can see would be a good thing.

    Adding a public DPS meter so everyone could always see everyone, would be a toxic thing.

    Again the information is technically public and being broadcast to everyone all the time. If they added a DPS meter as a native part of the game it's naive to think it wouldn't be public since that's the current status quo.

    The data doesn't belong to you nor is it private.

    You currently can't opt out of sharing since it's how the game works.

    If they did go with this method of share/no share all the people who are getting kicked from groups due to their lower performance aren't suddenly going to start being allowed into groups...you think the group's they are getting kicked from now / most groups wouldn't run "DPS meter share on" style groups?

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Ping?
    Well make an ingame DPS meter.
    Have a command that shares your DPS and its colored differently so people know you aint lying.
    Maybe some allow DPS share checkbox, let others know your DPS and people type the command themselves and sees other peoples DPS.

    Now people far away you know there DPS, it now checks other people data from their client so ping is no longer an issue.
    They already have a combat log, so I don't want to hear "it would be a lot of work".
    Arcdps person gets it up in no time. he has a real job too.
    GW2 devs, they work on this game, doing it is what they do, they have access to everything they need too.

    If arcdps guy can get it done on his offtime quickly, an Anet dev can even quicker get it done.

    I'm not sure why you apparently directed this at me. I'm not sure why you think this is a solution to ping problems, for example in phases where a boss goes invuln, I get that information about 150ms after everyone else, and same when the boss comes off invuln.

    Add in boss dynamics where aoes, that are randomly placed, appear on the floor with a 500ms warning.

    This all affects the ability to get off rotations that require speed between skills. And the rotations are the reason for higher DPS.

    So coming back to your earlier point about making the rotations shorter, yes that should help those of us with higher ping to some degree. However, even with a shorter rotation, we still get some problems: skills flashing (ah, the joy of lag spikes), and the wonderful experience of getting a firebrand book to open, only for it to immediately close even though we only hit the function/clicked the button once.

    Your getting someone else's data from someone else.
    Everyone has DPS meter,
    everyone turned it on in the group.
    It's syncing up

    No more, you track someone else on your client.
    Everyone tracks themselves, and its sent to the shared dps meter field.
    If player x tracking his own dps and it says 23k
    You get see 23k.
    No more, your client lagged out, player x has 16k dps, but its really 23k

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Adding a personal DPS meter that only the player can see would be a good thing.

    Adding a public DPS meter so everyone could always see everyone, would be a toxic thing.

    Again the information is technically public and being broadcast to everyone all the time. If they added a DPS meter as a native part of the game it's naive to think it wouldn't be public since that's the current status quo.

    The data doesn't belong to you nor is it private.

    You currently can't opt out of sharing since it's how the game works.

    If they did go with this method of share/no share all the people who are getting kicked from groups due to their lower performance aren't suddenly going to start being allowed into groups...you think the group's they are getting kicked from now / most groups wouldn't run "DPS meter share on" style groups?

    Yes it should be shared, nothing toxic about it.
    You do bad, someone will give you tips and you become a better player.
    You don't listen and still bad dps, not there fault you getting kicked. You don't listen, this is tough content, you need to get certain dps so everyone can succeed.

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Obfuscate.6430 said:
    When the game was being launched the selling point was "play how you want". Do you know why Guild Wars 2 has a soft trinity rather than a hard one? It was by design, so that no one would ever have to wait for a certain class, for a specific party composition. Inevitably, content was introduced which made liars of the developers.
    Do you know what is not fun? Having to play a class, a play style and a build I hate because that is what people currently want in their party - and I am not even talking about Raids. I am talking about the single boss strikes.
    Introducing yet another way to shove players in to a tiny box of "play how I want and need you to play" is not going to make better players and will likely further wittle down any build or play style diversity between patch days.

    Do you know what would improve the game? Including tutorials that give a real understanding of simple game mechanics like dodging and CC, skill synergy, and build synergy. Guild Wars 1 Fractions had this. Create better players by empowering them , not by threatening them with party kicks because they don't want to play with the precision you expect.

    Strikes, Raids, Fractals
    This is end game content.
    Some of them are nothing but a DPS check. (Subject 7 much?)

    If you don't meet the DPS check you don't move on.
    You play as you want, and its bad DPS, the other 4 people who are playing to move on, you are hindering their progress.
    They should see in DPS meter, rather than a couple of wipes and figuring out who it is, and boot the person "play as they want"

    Now, with smaller rotations, it makes "Play as you want easier"
    But since some fights, you gotta follow a strict rotation, usually 19 - 26 button long rotation, if you don't do you get the DPS the game is expecting of you.

    Play as you want in PvE, nobody cares about your DPS.
    But in fractals, raids, strikes, this is serious content.
    There are DPS checks. If they have a DPS check, they (the developers) obviously don't expect "Play as you want"

  • I am all pro DPS meter! I'm always curious how I perform compared to the other DPS classes and I'm always willing to improve and learn.

    If your job is to DPS then I don't see why you shouldn't get measured by your DPS?
    In the end that lack of skill / knowledge or dedication could be the reason why other players waste a lot of time trying some more challenging stuff.

    Varg Blutaar

  • @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Obfuscate.6430 said:
    When the game was being launched the selling point was "play how you want". Do you know why Guild Wars 2 has a soft trinity rather than a hard one? It was by design, so that no one would ever have to wait for a certain class, for a specific party composition. Inevitably, content was introduced which made liars of the developers.
    Do you know what is not fun? Having to play a class, a play style and a build I hate because that is what people currently want in their party - and I am not even talking about Raids. I am talking about the single boss strikes.
    Introducing yet another way to shove players in to a tiny box of "play how I want and need you to play" is not going to make better players and will likely further wittle down any build or play style diversity between patch days.

    Do you know what would improve the game? Including tutorials that give a real understanding of simple game mechanics like dodging and CC, skill synergy, and build synergy. Guild Wars 1 Fractions had this. Create better players by empowering them , not by threatening them with party kicks because they don't want to play with the precision you expect.

    Strikes, Raids, Fractals
    This is end game content.
    Some of them are nothing but a DPS check.

    If you don't meet the DPS check you don't move on.
    You play as you want, and its bad DPS, the other 4 people who are playing to move on, you are hindering their progress.
    They should see in DPS meter, rather than a couple of wipes and figuring out who it is, and boot the person "play as they want"

    Now, with smaller rotations, it makes "Play as you want easier"
    But since some fights, you gotta follow a strict rotation, usually 19 - 26 button long rotation, if you don't do you get the DPS the game is expecting of you.

    Play as you want in PvE, nobody cares about your DPS.
    But in fractals, raids, strikes, this is serious content.
    There are DPS checks. If they have a DPS check, they (the developers) obviously don't expect "Play as you want"

    There will always be a 'best way', a ''faster way'- but it throws away party/build diversity.
    A DPS meter only creates further division where there doesn't need to be any.

  • @Obfuscate.6430 said:
    There will always be a 'best way', a ''faster way'- but it throws away party/build diversity.
    A DPS meter only creates further division where there doesn't need to be any.

    GW1 had build diversity but GW2? I haven't seen anyone using a hammer in years - that should tell you enough.
    If you wanna play ineffective, fun builds (which is understandable), you shouldn't do that when people rely on your performance. Most classes have 3-4 "effective" builds and that's it - those are also the builds you're supposed to use for endgame stuff. For everything else it doesn't matter and no one will care about DPS.

    Varg Blutaar

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    no they also need to ban any 3party dps meter, any content in the game can be finished and completed without these rotations, people forcing them should be banned too for being toxic to others.

    the game is not a dps check
    people forcing dps check on pugs should be banned.
    if you want dps and speed run you can make your static party.

    this game turned into a madhouse with these dps meters and kp things, they aren't even logic, this is getting out of control, at least anet is doing something and changed KP things, next step will be banning dps meters

  • choon.6308choon.6308 Member ✭✭✭

    Nah, if they add a DPS meter it will expose millions of players having less than garbage dps all around. Right now, most of them are content doing 2k dps at lvl 80 group content and think they are doing ok

  • @choon.6308 said:
    Nah, if they add a DPS meter it will expose millions of players having less than garbage dps all around. Right now, most of them are content doing 2k dps at lvl 80 group content and think they are doing ok

    ...but that's exactly the problem?!
    How could they know that they underperform when there's nothing and no one that tells them they underperform?

    For a long time I thought I'm doing great dps-wise but boiii did I feel embarassed when I finally geared up, skilled properly and got my rotations. I didn't know this was even possible, how could I know when all I see is my own DPS and the enemies HP bar going down simultaneously?

    Varg Blutaar

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obfuscate.6430 said:
    When the game was being launched the selling point was "play how you want". Do you know why Guild Wars 2 has a soft trinity rather than a hard one? It was by design, so that no one would ever have to wait for a certain class, for a specific party composition. Inevitably, content was introduced which made liars of the developers.
    Do you know what is not fun? Having to play a class, a play style and a build I hate because that is what people currently want in their party - and I am not even talking about Raids. I am talking about the single boss strikes.
    Introducing yet another way to shove players in to a tiny box of "play how I want and need you to play" is not going to make better players and will likely further wittle down any build or play style diversity between patch days.

    Do you know what would improve the game? Including tutorials that give a real understanding of simple game mechanics like dodging and CC, skill synergy, and build synergy. Guild Wars 1 Fractions had this. Create better players by empowering them , not by threatening them with party kicks because they don't want to play with the precision you expect.

    Despite the misconstrued understanding of "play how you want" it doesn't mean play with who you want.

    Those other players are playing how they want. Why is that a problem? Or is this another "play how you want as long as it's my way and I am included". If we have 4 people who are like minded and 1 who isn't...then the one get kicked since they didn't fit the group or didn't align with how the group wanted to play..you know their own way..how are the 4 the problem? Just as you say they shouldn't have a right to pigeon hole you and tell you how to play you have the exact same zero right to do that to them and say they shouldn't play their way.

    "But you don't need too to complete the content". Completely irrelevant. If they want to play a certain way, again, who are you to tell them otherwise.

    " But I can't get a party and they are keeping me from the content " . Not at all start your own party or join parties that share you mind instead of demonising and chastising those that don't fit how you think they should be playing. The exact issue you're accusing them of doing to you.

    It's also incredibly heavy handed to call the devs liars because some content requires organisation. Hard content where you needed to be better organised was always a design of the game. Dungeons, their original vision of this, just didn't actually hit where they wanted it to.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They could just add a DPS meter which is viewable only by the player.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    if you can't kill without him that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

    So if a person can't carry is the same as another one afking. Being incompetent is the same as "not carrying". The wonderful things you read on video game forums.

    more amazing is saying that someone with bad dps is afk.
    or dying for being bad and trying to search for an excuse

    Your exact words:

    if you can't kill without him that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

    That includes being afk doesn't it?
    And besides a player that does let's say 1k-2k damage is the same as being afk, as in not making any difference to the fight. Wasn't that your point anyway, talking about "carrying"? That some players aren't contributing anything to the team, being leeches, and you put them in the same position as players actively playing and trying their best, but maybe their best still isn't enough to beat the boss with a 1-man handicap.

    without him i mean he is dead, now if he is not dead and he is doing low damage, but you still can't kill you are bad as him because you would not need him if you could carry like you guys keep saying.

    now if everyone died and he is still alive, he is more skilled and better than everyone on the party, deal with that.

    So if I can't carry someone who is contributing nothing then I am as bad as them because if I was good then I could cover the contribution? What kind of terrible logic is that...

    Same with if I build completely selfishly, contribute nothing but work on my own personal survival, which could coincidentally be the reason we fail, then I am better than everyone...

    Terrible , terrible logic. Both scenarios you've posted just completely forgo almost all of the point of working as a team.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    if you can't kill without him that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

    So if a person can't carry is the same as another one afking. Being incompetent is the same as "not carrying". The wonderful things you read on video game forums.

    more amazing is saying that someone with bad dps is afk.
    or dying for being bad and trying to search for an excuse

    Your exact words:

    if you can't kill without him that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

    That includes being afk doesn't it?
    And besides a player that does let's say 1k-2k damage is the same as being afk, as in not making any difference to the fight. Wasn't that your point anyway, talking about "carrying"? That some players aren't contributing anything to the team, being leeches, and you put them in the same position as players actively playing and trying their best, but maybe their best still isn't enough to beat the boss with a 1-man handicap.

    without him i mean he is dead, now if he is not dead and he is doing low damage, but you still can't kill you are bad as him because you would not need him if you could carry like you guys keep saying.

    Interesting. So let me get this straight, if I put my full nomad gear on my Guardian, get an "unkillable" build, go into a Fractal and hide in a corner from the boss, if the other 4 players fail to kill the boss they are as much to blame as me. Congratulations I guess, villainizing the victims. And even if a team can carry (because many teams CAN carry), does that make it an OK behavior for a player to exploit the rest of the team like that? When is the time and effort of a player going to be respected?

    now if everyone died and he is still alive, he is more skilled and better than everyone on the party, deal with that.

    If everyone dies in team content except for one player, that doesn't make that player better. Check my example above on why being alive while others in your group are dead doesn't really mean anything. Also the rest of the players might've simply died because they were one player sort, the longer a boss survives, the more mechanics you have to deal with after all.

    you keep implying the player is afk, low damage is being is not afk.
    yep if go unkillable build and still be alive you are doing great ;), if your party died it's their fault, you can still kill it, just going to take time

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    if you can't kill without him that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

    So if a person can't carry is the same as another one afking. Being incompetent is the same as "not carrying". The wonderful things you read on video game forums.

    more amazing is saying that someone with bad dps is afk.
    or dying for being bad and trying to search for an excuse

    Your exact words:

    if you can't kill without him that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

    That includes being afk doesn't it?
    And besides a player that does let's say 1k-2k damage is the same as being afk, as in not making any difference to the fight. Wasn't that your point anyway, talking about "carrying"? That some players aren't contributing anything to the team, being leeches, and you put them in the same position as players actively playing and trying their best, but maybe their best still isn't enough to beat the boss with a 1-man handicap.

    without him i mean he is dead, now if he is not dead and he is doing low damage, but you still can't kill you are bad as him because you would not need him if you could carry like you guys keep saying.

    Interesting. So let me get this straight, if I put my full nomad gear on my Guardian, get an "unkillable" build, go into a Fractal and hide in a corner from the boss, if the other 4 players fail to kill the boss they are as much to blame as me. Congratulations I guess, villainizing the victims. And even if a team can carry (because many teams CAN carry), does that make it an OK behavior for a player to exploit the rest of the team like that? When is the time and effort of a player going to be respected?

    now if everyone died and he is still alive, he is more skilled and better than everyone on the party, deal with that.

    If everyone dies in team content except for one player, that doesn't make that player better. Check my example above on why being alive while others in your group are dead doesn't really mean anything. Also the rest of the players might've simply died because they were one player sort, the longer a boss survives, the more mechanics you have to deal with after all.

    you keep implying the player is afk, low damage is being is not afk.
    yep if go unkillable build and still be alive you are doing great ;), if your party died it's their fault

    I'm not implying anything, you said above that the "low dps" is as if it's "without him", having very low dps and being afk are the exact same thing.
    You are just villainizing the victims and it doesn't really help your argument. In fact it makes it pathetic.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They could just add a DPS meter which is viewable only by the player.

    That would be nice. However, I can see that others would start demanding screenshots of the meter. :(

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2020

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They could just add a DPS meter which is viewable only by the player.

    That would be nice. However, I can see that others would start demanding screenshots of the meter. :(

    If they care what someone else’s DPS is then they can continue to use arcdps.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2020

    i'm ok as long thay not gona ban old one
    Same hps metter culd be rly nice

  • @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm confused, how is a DPS meter going to help with rotations?

    Lets people know whatever they currently doing is bad, and when someone tells them the correct rotation, they and the other people can see, that the DPS more efficient or worse.

    But thats not the problem, the attack rotation being too long is the REAL solution to this.
    Knowing people do bad or good dps doesn't solve anything.
    Close that wide dps gap is the solution and it starts with attack chains being too long.

    A DPS meter will help with making new builds too. Not everyone has to follow snowcrows or be a pro to go outside the meta/suggested build.

    If your dps goes down, it's it's not that the player is bad all the time. Sometimes some adds spawned and messed up your rotation. Or the boss randomly decides to stun you.

    I think adding a built in dps meter is a bad idea because it will bring toxicity. "Oh we all failed on the last boss? Better kick the person with the least dps."

  • I think there might be a compromise that might work.

    Consider an in-house DPS meter for guilds , which would allow guild members to see each other's information.
    This helps in two ways: It can allow training guilds to directly work with members who need help the most as OP felt it might.
    It will allow people to play with who they want and how they want to the standards they expect.

    Another possibility is to expand this idea with Guild Alliances, a feature they might introduce with the newest expansion since guild alliances were such a major part of the Factions campaign.

    I think there is a misconception that you need to have peak performance to clear content. That is the message the DPS meter sends and it is the wrong one.
    While I don't want to /gg for half an hour until I rage quit, I also don't want to be forced in to a play style that isn't mine just to gain access to stories, and skins.
    What OP and many others overlook is that you can still play well and still clear content , even if it's a little slower than ideal.

    You do not have to play with people who want to play that way and vice versa. That's just the bottom line.

  • @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    if you can't kill without him that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

    So if a person can't carry is the same as another one afking. Being incompetent is the same as "not carrying". The wonderful things you read on video game forums.

    more amazing is saying that someone with bad dps is afk.
    or dying for being bad and trying to search for an excuse

    Your exact words:

    if you can't kill without him that means you can't carry and it's bad as him.

    That includes being afk doesn't it?
    And besides a player that does let's say 1k-2k damage is the same as being afk, as in not making any difference to the fight. Wasn't that your point anyway, talking about "carrying"? That some players aren't contributing anything to the team, being leeches, and you put them in the same position as players actively playing and trying their best, but maybe their best still isn't enough to beat the boss with a 1-man handicap.

    without him i mean he is dead, now if he is not dead and he is doing low damage, but you still can't kill you are bad as him because you would not need him if you could carry like you guys keep saying.

    now if everyone died and he is still alive, he is more skilled and better than everyone on the party, deal with that.

    Surviving =/= skill

    common saying in mmo's better to die with your team than to survive without them. all dps makes things quicker and skips mechanics this has been in gw2 since the start. ive used arcdps and played high end pve for a while now and ive very rarely met anyone complaining about someone not have the top benchmark dps, people just want to know if a player on soulbeast (highest burst in game) is doing more damage than their banner warrior. if not then why should they get to leech a free reward for others hard work.

    thats it, its rude to leech dont do it. everyone needs to participate.

    Always be rootin, always be tootin, and by golly always be shootin.

  • Can we have an inspect feature as well

  • @GAB.9340 said:
    Can we have an inspect feature as well

    Inspect feature is completely unnecessary. You might have a vested interest in knowing whether your teammates do their job well. It's not your business however how they're doing that, as long as they do okay.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.