Necromancer is due some major nerfs, the class been flying under the radar for more than 1 year - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Necromancer is due some major nerfs, the class been flying under the radar for more than 1 year

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  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I dare you to find a single nerf thread I did which wasn't about lowering the efficiency of some specs rather than destroy the class! I dare you to find a single nerf thread made by a honest necro player

    First, calling for nerf isn't asking for destroying a class, so I don't get why you "dare" me to search for one. Second, time is precious, I won't waste it on searching for threads that are created by players whom you can only guess the main professions they use or not.

    I consider the following professions, the the most honest and worth of praise: warriors , mesmers, eles , I seen top players like @Helseth.2619 , @Phantaram and multiclass users like @Boyce.4069 denouncing their own class when it was clearly broken and in needs of change....

    All professions have their share of whiners that aren't "honest", but it doesn't mean that some individual aren't. You're taking those 3 players in high esteem, fine, but that's up to you.

    The remaining communities in this game are far less honest and transparent, always ready to surf the periodical OP/Broken wave shamelessly but....out of of all of them the necro community is without doubt the most dishonest, always crying for buffs all year long...always complaining how weak their class is...even when we get periods with 6-8 necros per match in ranked and 30 necros out of 50 players in WvW.

    Let's put it bluntly, the necromancer community mainly try to move ANet's devs toward end game PvE buffs and if possible PvE buff that wouldn't impact PvP/WvW. On the opposite, ANet's devs every move promote the necromancer's efficiency in PvP/WvW leading to a very slow rise of the necromancer's state in PvE. The necromancer's community is just as irritated by what ANet's devs does to bring the necromancer in a good place in PvE than you are about seeing necromancers everywhere in your favored gamemodes.

    I find it amusing that some players would try and call me out as some kind of scammer......sorry I don't enjoy playing OP specs and I hate being at the mercy of OP ones, every time I made a nerf thread was for very good reasons, all about lowering the efficiency of same specs rather than removing them out of existence like you lot usually do.

    Personally, I just call you for what you do: complain that [profession] always ask for nerf while you are yourself constantly out for nerfs on other professions.

    The main point of the discussion remains the same : I never asked to remove professions from game, remove all their sources of dmg and sustain, I always consider : the amulet and traitline being used by a specific build , I don't cry about holo because I know they run with zerker amulet and their sustain/stab up is not as high as before, huge dmg is to be expected by people running with a zerk amulet, I still see holos dropping like a sack of potatoes in 1v1 ..all the while I am using a marauder ele.

    Nope, the main point of the discussion, if you were anwering me was that you're calling out "necromancers", in general, for asking constantly for nerfs while, in fact, asking for nerfs is the main source of inspiration of more than half of your 197 own threads.

    I can use a marauder ele against all classes, potentially lose and still don't feel the fight was unabalanced and unfair...I can take their initial burst and still see a chance to fight back ,on the other hand you go against a reaper and single ghastly claw eats 80-90% of your health followed by chill spam with unblockable marks then the perma quickness doesn't allow you to kite as all CC is near instant followed by spin to win

    It doesn't mean that the elementalist don't give you options outside of the way you're playing it to solve the issue. Which is probably what 95% of the players you're complaining about point out to you.

    On a marauder ele I can fight a thief and grenade holo at the same time...lose and still feel the fight was fair and can do better next time, it's not the same with necros. You have been living the dream for the last year feeling like a god due to all the dmg/sustain nerfs on other professions...it's time to bring necro down to earth..and trust me..those nerfs are coming

    No, like I said, the dream of the necromancer isn't to perform well in sPvP/WvW. In this 2 gamemodes the necromancer have always had the boon hater niche to make him ever relevant. ANet's devs won't remove this niche because they flooded all professions with way to many boons so you'll always have to face necromancers in those gamemodes that you favor. Which mean that you'll always have a reason to complain about them while you'll continue to see necromancer complaining that they are bottom of the barrel in optimized PvE end game and they want this situation to change.

    Let's be honest, I've said quite often that:

    • RO and Death perception both grant a broken OP amount of stat point and this need to change. The ferocity on both traits should have halved in the february patch.
    • The necromancer's shrd#1 attack is bloated with trait effects and this need to change.
    • Barrier need to be reworked, no longer being a stacking effect.
    • Scourge F2, F3 and F4 shouldn't proc manifest sand shroud. F5 shouldn't deal damage but support allies instead.
    • Lich form and every elite transformation skills need to be removed from the game and replaced by something healthier.
    • To fairly reduce the necromancer's sustain since the february patch, the LF pool to health pool rate should change from 67% to 44%.

    Those aren't popular opinions and as unpopular opinions they simply disapear into forgotten lands. You could have solved 99% of the issues of the necromancer in sPvP/WvW with those suggestions had they been implemented in the february patch. ANet's devs choose the other way around, following some high ranking players that does not play necromancer insight for the current almost balanced result that seem to bother you.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Let's be honest, I've said quite often that:

    • RO and Death perception both grant a broken OP amount of stat point and this need to change. The ferocity on both traits should have halved in the february patch.
    • The necromancer's shrd#1 attack is bloated with trait effects and this need to change.
    • Barrier need to be reworked, no longer being a stacking effect.
    • Scourge F2, F3 and F4 shouldn't proc manifest sand shroud. F5 shouldn't deal damage but support allies instead.
    • Lich form and every elite transformation skills need to be removed from the game and replaced by something healthier.
    • To fairly reduce the necromancer's sustain since the february patch, the LF pool to health pool rate should change from 67% to 44%.

    Those aren't popular opinions and as unpopular opinions they simply disapear into forgotten lands. You could have solved 99% of the issues of the necromancer in sPvP/WvW with those suggestions had they been implemented in the february patch. ANet's devs choose the other way around, following some high ranking players that does not play necromancer insight for the current almost balanced result that seem to bother you.

    Those are the changes which should have happened months ago....and everybody here knows it, including the devs!
    All my nerf threads are about irregularities, I complained about : Holosmith - Warrior -Condi Mirage - Boonbeast/Druid - D/D ele, Tempest - Necromancer; specifically they were....

    -Holo shockwave/pre-explosive line build with OP sustain/dmg ratio
    -"Might makes me right" sustain and Rampage

    • Infinite Horizon
    • Moa stance/Celestial Shadow and Ancient seeds
    • Fire line burning application- general sustain powercreep of Tempest
    • and a "long" list on necro

    Made also a thread about condi heralds and firebrands....always complained about stackable specs with no penalties, in the words used by the devs years ago : "when a team wins with multiple versions of the same class..then we have a problem"...their words not mine

    I don't come here on forum to "whine" every time I get killed by a random spec, got killed by every single class but you won't find a thread of me asking to nerf this or that other spec, all the specs I complained about got nerfed in the end.....how exactly am I the "whiny" kid here? If all my nerf threads were based on groundless accusations...those builds/skills would still be here....they don't seem so groundless to me won't you agree?

    About ele..me and many others didn't sign up to "play" as a healbot and it's about high time the devs and this community understand it

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Think you missed the important stuff... or are intentionally ignoring it.

    @Arheundel.6451

    "Necro ever increasing mobility"

    You mean like all the other professions who have access to mobility skills? And there are professions with way more on demand mobility. Speed rune? Everyone has access to it. And there is way more than enough movement impairing conditions in this game...

    You forget about all the other professions that have access to speed buffs? No, just an issue with Necro.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swiftness

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superspeed

    And do I really need to link every movement skill in the game across all professions?

    The issue was never about the mobility given to necro....it was always about the core design of the spec

    A slow moving juggernaut dealing massive dmg once he reaches enough life force....this is far from what we have today with added goodies necro received since HoT launch.....in an effort to increase its desirability in PvE....during the whole ordeal the devs forgot to consider that Human players haven't got the same HP bar of a mini boss

    Slow moving is a key part of the discussion here to justify the current levels of dmg

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Think you missed the important stuff... or are intentionally ignoring it.

    @Arheundel.6451

    "Necro ever increasing mobility"

    You mean like all the other professions who have access to mobility skills? And there are professions with way more on demand mobility. Speed rune? Everyone has access to it. And there is way more than enough movement impairing conditions in this game...

    You forget about all the other professions that have access to speed buffs? No, just an issue with Necro.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swiftness

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superspeed

    And do I really need to link every movement skill in the game across all professions?

    The issue was never about the mobility given to necro....it was always about the core design of the spec

    A slow moving juggernaut dealing massive dmg once he reaches enough life force....this is far from what we have today with added goodies necro received since HoT launch.....in an effort to increase its desirability in PvE....during the whole ordeal the devs forgot to consider that Human players haven't got the same HP bar of a mini boss

    Slow moving is a key part of the discussion here to justify the current levels of dmg

    That’s your first problem... Stop being hung up on PR and advertising words. We could do that all over the place if that were the case.

    Second...

    You: “The issue was never about the mobility”

    Also you: “Necro ever increasing mobility"

    You are avoiding answering that post of mine because I am right.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And if you want to get all technical... These statements came out first... Way before your “slow moving” thing you are hung up on...

    “Guild Wars 2 is an online role-playing game with fast-paced action combat”

    “Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat and choose from an arsenal of professions, weapons, and playstyles.”

    “We’re putting the fun back in fantasy combat—come join us on the battlefield!”

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020
  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Think you missed the important stuff... or are intentionally ignoring it.

    @Arheundel.6451

    "Necro ever increasing mobility"

    You mean like all the other professions who have access to mobility skills? And there are professions with way more on demand mobility. Speed rune? Everyone has access to it. And there is way more than enough movement impairing conditions in this game...

    You forget about all the other professions that have access to speed buffs? No, just an issue with Necro.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swiftness

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superspeed

    And do I really need to link every movement skill in the game across all professions?

    The issue was never about the mobility given to necro....it was always about the core design of the spec

    A slow moving juggernaut dealing massive dmg once he reaches enough life force....this is far from what we have today with added goodies necro received since HoT launch.....in an effort to increase its desirability in PvE....during the whole ordeal the devs forgot to consider that Human players haven't got the same HP bar of a mini boss

    Slow moving is a key part of the discussion here to justify the current levels of dmg

    That’s your first problem... Stop being hung up on PR and advertising words. We could do that all over the place if that were the case.

    Second...

    You: “The issue was never about the mobility”

    Also you: “Necro ever increasing mobility"

    You are avoiding answering that post of mine because I am right.

    Nothing more to say, the nerfs to necro will come without doubt....you will be proved wrong like the hundreds of players who thought their spec/class was balanced...like people in this thread they shouted "L2P" from the top of their lungs...and look where they're now....

    It's normal common sense....necro and rev escaped the nerf hammer in Feb ..that nerf hammer eventually will reach ...I don't know how people can think nothing will change from now.

    I have been called names, verbally abused in game by players who stalk me from the forum (these people tell me their forum name..like I keep a list of all people from a gaming forum...I genuinely couldn't care less of remembering anybody name here) but in the end, all the things I suggested should be nerfed...they do get nerfed because all you need is some common sense and some MMO knowledge to see how some things stand up like a sore thumb.

    The truth in the end is that only a couple of people have given arguably a reason why the necro traits I have listed in the OP exist....the rest was just typical emotionally charged angry ranting , nowhere in the OP I have suggested to gut necro sustain or dmg..still people act like I did...whatever

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

    You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

    You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

    Other professions don't have access to seemingly unavoidable and unblockable 1200 chill/fear lockdown combo, neither have access to traits like "reaper's onslaught" or a broken Elite with 6-7k dmg on auto-attacks.

    Chill/fear on skills that can be stacked on top of one another in the shortest amount of time....during that time I can dodge a grenade holo two times over and see a mesmer one shot burst from miles away...

    Necro right now is a combination of several buffs that have been piling up for years now....they kept buffing the class with little regards to what happened to PvP/WvW all in an effort to make necro apparently more interesting to play in PvE......right now necro is the 3rd most played class in the game after guardian and warrior and yet you try to tell me that necro is not deserving of nerfs....

    It's not hard to convince anybody , given the current situation

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    Strenghts and weaknesses define a class. A reaper with berserker amulet, reapers onslaught and speed runes is not a "slow moving, hard hitting juggernaut", it's a thief without stealth. Also reaper does not have a viable build that fits the original design, but most of its kit still reflects it. And it's weird, how it is a mix of slow, heavy hitting attacks and rapidfire multi-hit combos boosted by quickness. What the **** is reaper even supposed to be at the moment?

    The slow moving juggernaut theme was dropped in 2018 as a result of PoF mobility powercreep, because to maintain that theme, the spec (even the whole class as core traits would be problematic) would need a rework, which anet can not afford to do. Some people still did not get the message until today.

    Core necro is just flat out overtuned. Damage was nerfed, sustain wasn't,

    Just ignore the facts already posted in this thread:

    spectral armor nerfed
    spectral walk nerfed
    signets nerfed
    unholy martyr nerfed
    carrapace nerfed
    unholy sanctuary nerfed
    foot in the grave replaced with an inferior gm trait (loss of a stunbreak and a stability source, both has a huge impact for necro)

    Yeah absolutely no sustain nerfs.

    infact you can even heal in shroud(you werent able for the first 6 years of this game).... if you ever feel like roleplaying as a raidboss, core necro is the perfect choice.

    Great, you saw that meme video of a player sustaining a few noobs in wvw (incl. gear that is not available in pvp and an elite (snow leopard) that is not available in pvp). That guy could also have played ele, scrapper or bunkerbeast with the same outcome.

    Core necro is completely in line with other bunkers. It is number 1 in facetanking damage, but has also the lowest mobility and the lowest stability access. People seem to have more of a problem with a class that soaks up damage instead of a class that is unkillable because of a mix of evading, blocking, healing, denying critical hits and kiting.

    In general I would like to see the sustain of everything (not just necromancer) cut in half. There is not enough emphasis on avoiding damage in general, but necromancer in particular....

    This argument does not make sense. Why focussing on necro if several things are problematic? I don't see a concept of overal sustain reworks in this thread. I just see whining about a class with obvious counters to an extent that it is not viable in tournaments curently.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dare you to find a single nerf thread I did which wasn't about lowering the efficiency of some specs rather than destroy the class! I dare you to find a single nerf thread made by a honest necro player

    Hello, my name is Kuma, but some of you might know me as the "Stop nerfing things" guy. I spend most of my time on the forums defending other people's classes from biased or misinformed nerf threads.

    I've also fallen in love with Necro as a proffession and play I've been playing a ton of it in PvP. (Mainly Mender Heal scourge). My most recent necro-themed thead was pretty honest I'd say. Suggesting a bug fix for a skill that I vehemently hate, rather than calling for Anet to gut it.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117936/necro-staff-autos-miss-binding-roots#latest

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

    You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

    Other professions don't have access to seemingly unavoidable and unblockable 1200 chill/fear lockdown combo, neither have access to traits like "reaper's onslaught" or a broken Elite with 6-7k dmg on auto-attacks.

    Chill/fear on skills that can be stacked on top of one another in the shortest amount of time....during that time I can dodge a grenade holo two times over and see a mesmer one shot burst from miles away...

    Necro right now is a combination of several buffs that have been piling up for years now....they kept buffing the class with little regards to what happened to PvP/WvW all in an effort to make necro apparently more interesting to play in PvE......right now necro is the 3rd most played class in the game after guardian and warrior and yet you try to tell me that necro is not deserving of nerfs....

    It's not hard to convince anybody , given the current situation

    Play rate = / = Performance

    If we go by this graph alone then we can reasonably surmise that neither Holo nor Renegade are a threat in the meta right now. In fact, Rev should probably recieve some buffs because it is clearly underperforming by a wide margin in comparison to the top 3.

    If you want a more accurate (but not fool-proof) way of determining a class's performance, you'll want to look at Playrate vs winrate.

    Low play rate + high winrate = More data needed. Suggests the class is mostly played by people who main it. Fewer inexperienced players dragging down the winrate means that it will naturally trend higher

    Low play rate + low winrate = Suggests the class is underperforming. Not even its mains can make it work at a sufficient level to be considered viable. Alternatively, the meta for this class is underdeveloped.

    High play rate + low winrate = More data needed. Suggests the class is either balanced or underperforming. More people playing the class means more inexperienced players and "first timers" to drag down the winrate. Additional data may suggest that the class is still strong in spite of this

    High Play rate + high winrate = Suggests the class is overperforming. Even newer players to the class are seeing results. However, it may also be the case that the class only performs well at lower levels of play, where the majority of players reside. Even if it struggles at high level, this would not necessarily reflect in the win rate due to the comparatively low sample of high level players.

    Note: this should not be used to gauge class strength on its own. More data needed to make a more accurate assessment. PvP also has a naturally low sample size of players meaning that results can quickly become skewed in any direction.

    Gw2 efficiency does not distinguish between PvP and PvE players. I would not be surprised if classes like Engi are played more in PvP while classes like Mesmer are played less.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

    You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

    Other professions don't have access to seemingly unavoidable and unblockable 1200 chill/fear lockdown combo, neither have access to traits like "reaper's onslaught" or a broken Elite with 6-7k dmg on auto-attacks.

    Chill/fear on skills that can be stacked on top of one another in the shortest amount of time....during that time I can dodge a grenade holo two times over and see a mesmer one shot burst from miles away...

    Necro right now is a combination of several buffs that have been piling up for years now....they kept buffing the class with little regards to what happened to PvP/WvW all in an effort to make necro apparently more interesting to play in PvE......right now necro is the 3rd most played class in the game after guardian and warrior and yet you try to tell me that necro is not deserving of nerfs....

    It's not hard to convince anybody , given the current situation

    Play rate = / = Performance

    If we go by this graph alone then we can reasonably surmise that neither Holo nor Renegade are a threat in the meta right now. In fact, Rev should probably recieve some buffs because it is clearly underperforming by a wide margin in comparison to the top 3.

    If you want a more accurate (but not fool-proof) way of determining a class's performance, you'll want to look at Playrate vs winrate.

    Low play rate + high winrate = More data needed. Suggests the class is mostly played by people who main it. Fewer inexperienced players dragging down the winrate means that it will naturally trend higher

    Low play rate + low winrate = Suggests the class is underperforming. Not even its mains can make it work at a sufficient level to be considered viable. Alternatively, the meta for this class is underdeveloped.

    High play rate + low winrate = More data needed. Suggests the class is either balanced or underperforming. More people playing the class means more inexperienced players and "first timers" to drag down the winrate. Additional data may suggest that the class is still strong in spite of this

    High Play rate + high winrate = Suggests the class is overperforming. Even newer players to the class are seeing results. However, it may also be the case that the class only performs well at lower levels of play, where the majority of players reside. Even if it struggles at high level, this would not necessarily reflect in the win rate due to the comparatively low sample of high level players.

    Note: this should not be used to gauge class strength on its own. More data needed to make a more accurate assessment. PvP also has a naturally low sample size of players meaning that results can quickly become skewed in any direction.

    Gw2 efficiency does not distinguish between PvP and PvE players. I would not be surprised if classes like Engi are played more in PvP while classes like Mesmer are played less.

    to add to it, necro was the most played class when I was starting over a year ago, so if anything the pick-rate went down.
    as for renegade argument, rene is an expansion only class, so it makes sense that it has low pick-rate, if anything its weird that its not THE LEAST played class.
    easy classes like ranger/guard/necro will attract lots of players, also edgy/unique classes might attract lots of players too, like mesmer/thief does.

    this is very bad was of looking at whats "good"
    for example I dont pve often but I NEVER see thiefs in fractals/raids, het somehow they have over 10% playrate, and you see 2 in each pvp game.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    to add to it, necro was the most played class when I was starting over a year ago, so if anything the pick-rate went down.
    as for renegade argument, rene is an expansion only class, so it makes sense that it has low pick-rate, if anything its weird that its not THE LEAST played class.
    easy classes like ranger/guard/necro will attract lots of players, also edgy/unique classes might attract lots of players too, like mesmer/thief does.

    this is very bad was of looking at whats "good"
    for example I dont pve often but I NEVER see thiefs in fractals/raids, het somehow they have over 10% playrate, and you see 2 in each pvp game.

    That argumentation has no statistical basis. It is a result of your imagination how things might be.

    Why do most necros suck at the game, if the class is so easy? Seriously, once a full moon I run into a necro that is a threat. The rest fails at shroud timing, at using the clunky ports and leaps adequately and at general positioning.

    Is thief harder, because it can facetank less or is it easier, because it has a 1200 range port that is also a stunbreak, a block that is also a stunbreak, a stealth access that is also a stunbreak and an aoe blind or a smoke field that is also a projectile block?

    Btw.: the only overrepresented necro build in casual pve is minion master. And this the worst you can run in the competitive modes. And in general: why do we talk about pve here?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    to add to it, necro was the most played class when I was starting over a year ago, so if anything the pick-rate went down.
    as for renegade argument, rene is an expansion only class, so it makes sense that it has low pick-rate, if anything its weird that its not THE LEAST played class.
    easy classes like ranger/guard/necro will attract lots of players, also edgy/unique classes might attract lots of players too, like mesmer/thief does.

    this is very bad was of looking at whats "good"
    for example I dont pve often but I NEVER see thiefs in fractals/raids, het somehow they have over 10% playrate, and you see 2 in each pvp game.

    That argumentation has no statistical basis. It is a result of your imagination how things might be.

    Why do most necros suck at the game, if the class is so easy? Seriously, once a full moon I run into a necro that is a threat. The rest fails at shroud timing, at using the clunky ports and leaps adequately and at general positioning.

    Is thief harder, because it can facetank less or is it easier, because it has a 1200 range port that is also a stunbreak, a block that is also a stunbreak, a stealth access that is also a stunbreak and an aoe blind or a smoke field that is also a projectile block?

    Btw.: the only overrepresented necro build in casual pve is minion master. And this the worst you can run in the competitive modes. And in general: why do we talk about pve here?

    necros suck at the game because their class is easy, if you can do all content by facetanking then you dont learn to kite/dodge do you? and it applies to all game modes, in openworld they go minions and dont even use skills, in fractals you have reaper/scourge with ~40k hp and even in raids I see people making ~7 scourge groups, ignoring mechanics and just facetanking bosses.

    btw, its not imagination. its observation. I have played many games across many genres, and in MMO, people mostly take whats easy, be it paladin in nvo, hunter/paladin in wow, guard/necro here.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    Core necro is just flat out overtuned. Damage was nerfed, sustain wasn't,

    Just ignore the facts already posted in this thread:

    spectral armor nerfed
    spectral walk nerfed
    signets nerfed
    unholy martyr nerfed
    carrapace nerfed
    unholy sanctuary nerfed
    foot in the grave replaced with an inferior gm trait (loss of a stunbreak and a stability source, both has a huge impact for necro)

    Yeah absolutely no sustain nerfs.

    Damage was nerfed - we both know I meant the february patch. So what makes you think this list is what I'm talking about when I say sustain? What I'm talking about is the planned sustain nerfs that tone down healing and damage reduction radically across the board. Noone cares that Spectral Armor got a CD increase from 40 to 45 seconds.
    TECHNICALLY you're right though, necromancer sustain was tinkered with. Good job on noticing.

    infact you can even heal in shroud(you werent able for the first 6 years of this game).... if you ever feel like roleplaying as a raidboss, core necro is the perfect choice.

    Great, you saw that meme video of a player sustaining a few noobs in wvw (incl. gear that is not available in pvp and an elite (snow leopard) that is not available in pvp). That guy could also have played ele, scrapper or bunkerbeast with the same outcome.

    I form these opinions based on how the class feels after I played them. But I appreciate the suggestion that I'm dumb enough to be influenced by a meme video. Good faith discussions are indeed boring.

    Core necro is completely in line with other bunkers. It is number 1 in facetanking damage...

    What comes after the but will be irrelevant given how thats all you need to do in this current meta. Congrats on the contradiciton game speedrun.

    ...but has also the lowest mobility and the lowest stability access. People seem to have more of a problem with a class that soaks up damage instead of a class that is unkillable because of a mix of evading, blocking, healing, denying critical hits and kiting.

    Yes, why should a tryharding weaver or firebrand be as durable as a necro simply standing there?

    In general I would like to see the sustain of everything (not just necromancer) cut in half. There is not enough emphasis on avoiding damage in general, but necromancer in particular....

    This argument does not make sense. Why focussing on necro if several things are problematic?

    Nice meme! Why focus on part of the problem when there are other parts too? HeY lOoK oVeR tHErE!
    If posting about necromancers in a thread about necromancers makes no sense to you... I'm so sorry!

    I don't see a concept of overal sustain reworks in this thread.

    I just presented you one: Cut everything in half. Its unrefined, probably a terrible idea, but TECHNICALLY a concept of overall sustain rework.

    I just see whining about a class with obvious counters to an extent that it is not viable in tournaments curently.

    Oh I can do this one aswell!
    " I just see irrational simping about a class with obvious problems to an extend that it is hard to take it seriously."

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2020

    Anet is thinking of a sustain nerf? Why? Sustain has already been cut drastically across the board. Even the previous worst offenders like Water Weaver and Firebrand have been nerfed to the ground.

    What Anet needs to do first if damage is too low is reevaluate damage on CC, and determine which CC's should be allowed to deal damage again. A few that I believe shoudl deal damage include:

    Backbreaker
    Earthshaker
    Executioner's Scythe (Why does this still have the execute mechanic if it does 7 damage?)
    Drop the hammer
    Overcharged Shot (or remove the self knock back. It has enough tradeoffs)
    Prime Light Beam
    Rocket turret

    See where we stand after that in terms of damage vs sustain. Reevaluate from there.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2020

    Runes of Svanir should be nerfed. If you use them on your ele together with Signet of Water you become practically immune to chill!!! Who would have thought that such an OP counter to necro chill still exists!? Nerf ASAP!
    Edit: I forgot about Earthen Blessing! No need to take Signet. Just take that trait and you are 100% immune to chill!

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    i think reaper is fine as it is.. yes it has amazing damage.. but its a melee class cannon with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks ..
    its so easily to mute a reaper.. and im necro my self.. enough 1 tempest or 1 spell breaker and the reaper wont even cast a spell..
    it has minimal sustain .. honestly.. i did not i saw here focus 5 complain about 10k when you hit with 3 boons.. but havent seen anyone saying anything abiout over 20k crit from thief that just need to click 1 key for that.. or about shadow heart ..
    lich got its own drawbacks.. to a point where if its nerfed more reapers wont use it..
    slow AF . and last 5 seconds.. easy to target and cc . enough 1 tempest in party to cast reflect aura. and 10 seconds of lich form go to waste.. because if you fire 1 projectile you will kill your self.. or mesmer reflect . or scrapper to cast protection bubble. or renegade to cast healing..
    or just put dps pressure on him.. and he will be forced to go shroud to not die.. or hide in behind something or dance around its easy to miss attacks..
    however.. i will agree that its not cool that condi core necro use lich form and hit hard with it.. i accept reaper

    i think core necro is basically fine.. but lich form shouldnt hit so hard for a condi class.. maybe change the scaling on lich form.
    also when comes to core necro.. "fear" fear need to be nerfed heavily .. core necro can fear lock classes untill they die.. like 10 seconds of fear and their fear drain too much HP.. the fear definitely should be nerfed.. i also find them abit too tanky

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @noiwk.2760 said:
    i think reaper is fine as it is.. yes it has amazing damage.. but its a melee class cannon with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks ..
    its so easily to mute a reaper.. and im necro my self.. enough 1 tempest or 1 spell breaker and the reaper wont even cast a spell..
    it has minimal sustain .. honestly.. i did not i saw here focus 5 complain about 10k when you hit with 3 boons.. but havent seen anyone saying anything abiout over 20k crit from thief that just need to click 1 key for that.. or about shadow heart ..
    lich got its own drawbacks.. to a point where if its nerfed more reapers wont use it..
    slow AF . and last 5 seconds.. easy to target and cc . enough 1 tempest in party to cast reflect aura. and 10 seconds of lich form go to waste.. because if you fire 1 projectile you will kill your self.. or mesmer reflect . or scrapper to cast protection bubble. or renegade to cast healing..
    or just put dps pressure on him.. and he will be forced to go shroud to not die.. or hide in behind something or dance around its easy to miss attacks..
    however.. i will agree that its not cool that condi core necro use lich form and hit hard with it.. i accept reaper

    i think core necro is basically fine.. but lich form shouldnt hit so hard for a condi class.. maybe change the scaling on lich form.
    also when comes to core necro.. "fear" fear need to be nerfed heavily .. core necro can fear lock classes untill they die.. like 10 seconds of fear and their fear drain too much HP.. the fear definitely should be nerfed.. i also find them abit too tanky

    dude stop posting lol, reaper gets stability from
    1 reaper shroud
    or 2 lich if he runs it
    or 3 that aoe stun gives stab, so every reaper will have at least 2 ways of getting stab.
    and reaper usually run 3 stun removing tools so saying that they barely have any is laughable.

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:
    i think reaper is fine as it is.. yes it has amazing damage.. but its a melee class cannon with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks ..
    its so easily to mute a reaper.. and im necro my self.. enough 1 tempest or 1 spell breaker and the reaper wont even cast a spell..
    it has minimal sustain .. honestly.. i did not i saw here focus 5 complain about 10k when you hit with 3 boons.. but havent seen anyone saying anything abiout over 20k crit from thief that just need to click 1 key for that.. or about shadow heart ..
    lich got its own drawbacks.. to a point where if its nerfed more reapers wont use it..
    slow AF . and last 5 seconds.. easy to target and cc . enough 1 tempest in party to cast reflect aura. and 10 seconds of lich form go to waste.. because if you fire 1 projectile you will kill your self.. or mesmer reflect . or scrapper to cast protection bubble. or renegade to cast healing..
    or just put dps pressure on him.. and he will be forced to go shroud to not die.. or hide in behind something or dance around its easy to miss attacks..
    however.. i will agree that its not cool that condi core necro use lich form and hit hard with it.. i accept reaper

    i think core necro is basically fine.. but lich form shouldnt hit so hard for a condi class.. maybe change the scaling on lich form.
    also when comes to core necro.. "fear" fear need to be nerfed heavily .. core necro can fear lock classes untill they die.. like 10 seconds of fear and their fear drain too much HP.. the fear definitely should be nerfed.. i also find them abit too tanky

    dude stop posting lol, reaper gets stability from
    1 reaper shroud
    or 2 lich if he runs it
    or 3 that aoe stun gives stab, so every reaper will have at least 2 ways of getting stab.
    and reaper usually run 3 stun removing tools so saying that they barely have any is laughable.

    you stop posting . reaper get stability from shroud 3 yes.. but reaper need to build up life force before he can use shroud . and need decent amount of it to keep it and not to watch it instnatly cancel .
    2 and 3 are both elite skills therefor you cant take both together !
    lich is per interval and it will be removed easily..
    reapers have stun breaks that provide no stability or evade.. they are very easy to focus and cc lock thats a fact

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    If you are an ele player just stop while you are a head... ele has always been weak to necro and it likely always will be because chill counters your ability to rapidly attune. You can beat necros with ele but it wont be easy just like its not easy for necro to beat thieves just deal with it and learn to handle the counter match up better.

    ...That's rich coming from necros...truly rich...I remember few years back ....

    Does Diamond skin need a nerf ?
    You can be the best condi necro of the world and have not a single chance in a 1 v 1 against the worst ele of the world

    The jokes on you ive always been a power player even for core necro before reaper came out. While you can attempt to come at me with that diamond skin stuff there were ways around it like having more power and crit chance in your build and not fully investing in condi alone

    Practice what you preach is what necros should do, at the time you'd rather play the victim card instead than learn to handle the counter match up better

    We have been nerfed plenty alreayd if any thing the biggest advantage you got came with the feb patch with the removal of instant doom. Which was fair as it was a get out of jail free card even while stunned etc.
    But there have also been several life force generating reductions, the removal of certain amulets, and an increase on life force per second with core shroud.
    If you are still struggling at this point (not factoring in cheese lich for 10s every 3 minutes ) then its a you problem not the necro problem.

    I already said how i feel above and that some things do still need some changes but you skipped all that but if we are really going to balance things there are still many tools that ele needs nerfed as well i wont call them out but you should understand what i mean.

    So instead of telling me to practice what I preach how about you just generally practice.
    Just go out and fight necros im sure you can ask around for some players to help you get better at the match up.
    Truth is you have nothing to lose if necro nerfs do come you will be even better off at dealing with them. Stop praying to anet to nerf something into unplayability so you dont have a counter matchup every class is going to have a hard counter match up or two but that does not mean you cant win against them.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

    You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

    Other professions don't have access to seemingly unavoidable and unblockable 1200 chill/fear lockdown combo, neither have access to traits like "reaper's onslaught" or a broken Elite with 6-7k dmg on auto-attacks.

    Chill/fear on skills that can be stacked on top of one another in the shortest amount of time....during that time I can dodge a grenade holo two times over and see a mesmer one shot burst from miles away...

    Necro right now is a combination of several buffs that have been piling up for years now....they kept buffing the class with little regards to what happened to PvP/WvW all in an effort to make necro apparently more interesting to play in PvE......right now necro is the 3rd most played class in the game after guardian and warrior and yet you try to tell me that necro is not deserving of nerfs....

    It's not hard to convince anybody , given the current situation

    We all struggle with different things in-game. Better players are always around the corner. It's easy to make mistakes... I think you are just having issues against more experienced players.

    My suggestion is to get a friend who plays necro and practice.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Anet is thinking of a sustain nerf? Why? Sustain has already been cut drastically across the board. Even the previous worst offenders like Water Weaver and Firebrand have been nerfed to the ground.

    What Anet needs to do first if damage is too low is reevaluate damage on CC, and determine which CC's should be allowed to deal damage again. A few that I believe shoudl deal damage include:

    Backbreaker
    Earthshaker
    Executioner's Scythe (Why does this still have the execute mechanic if it does 7 damage?)
    Drop the hammer
    Overcharged Shot (or remove the self knock back. It has enough tradeoffs)
    Prime Light Beam
    Rocket turret

    See where we stand after that in terms of damage vs sustain. Reevaluate from there.

    You forgot about warriors headbutt! (extra damage if you remove stab from yourself)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @noiwk.2760 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:
    i think reaper is fine as it is.. yes it has amazing damage.. but its a melee class cannon with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks ..
    its so easily to mute a reaper.. and im necro my self.. enough 1 tempest or 1 spell breaker and the reaper wont even cast a spell..
    it has minimal sustain .. honestly.. i did not i saw here focus 5 complain about 10k when you hit with 3 boons.. but havent seen anyone saying anything abiout over 20k crit from thief that just need to click 1 key for that.. or about shadow heart ..
    lich got its own drawbacks.. to a point where if its nerfed more reapers wont use it..
    slow AF . and last 5 seconds.. easy to target and cc . enough 1 tempest in party to cast reflect aura. and 10 seconds of lich form go to waste.. because if you fire 1 projectile you will kill your self.. or mesmer reflect . or scrapper to cast protection bubble. or renegade to cast healing..
    or just put dps pressure on him.. and he will be forced to go shroud to not die.. or hide in behind something or dance around its easy to miss attacks..
    however.. i will agree that its not cool that condi core necro use lich form and hit hard with it.. i accept reaper

    i think core necro is basically fine.. but lich form shouldnt hit so hard for a condi class.. maybe change the scaling on lich form.
    also when comes to core necro.. "fear" fear need to be nerfed heavily .. core necro can fear lock classes untill they die.. like 10 seconds of fear and their fear drain too much HP.. the fear definitely should be nerfed.. i also find them abit too tanky

    dude stop posting lol, reaper gets stability from
    1 reaper shroud
    or 2 lich if he runs it
    or 3 that aoe stun gives stab, so every reaper will have at least 2 ways of getting stab.
    and reaper usually run 3 stun removing tools so saying that they barely have any is laughable.

    you stop posting . reaper get stability from shroud 3 yes.. but reaper need to build up life force before he can use shroud . and need decent amount of it to keep it and not to watch it instnatly cancel .
    2 and 3 are both elite skills therefor you cant take both together !
    lich is per interval and it will be removed easily..
    reapers have stun breaks that provide no stability or evade.. they are very easy to focus and cc lock thats a fact

    you said " with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks "
    I pointed out that you have 2 sources of stability and 3 stun breaks, you even agreed with me. you know who gets stunned while focused? kitten everyone in the game ( exept thief ) so its not reaper specific.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

    You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

    Other professions don't have access to seemingly unavoidable and unblockable 1200 chill/fear lockdown combo, neither have access to traits like "reaper's onslaught" or a broken Elite with 6-7k dmg on auto-attacks.

    Chill/fear on skills that can be stacked on top of one another in the shortest amount of time....during that time I can dodge a grenade holo two times over and see a mesmer one shot burst from miles away...

    Necro right now is a combination of several buffs that have been piling up for years now....they kept buffing the class with little regards to what happened to PvP/WvW all in an effort to make necro apparently more interesting to play in PvE......right now necro is the 3rd most played class in the game after guardian and warrior and yet you try to tell me that necro is not deserving of nerfs....

    It's not hard to convince anybody , given the current situation

    We all struggle with different things in-game. Better players are always around the corner. It's easy to make mistakes... I think you are just having issues against more experienced players.

    My suggestion is to get a friend who plays necro and practice.

    I can manage to recognize better players and I can discern a bad necro from a good one, while playing an ele against a good necro ...there is not even the resemblance of counterplay...very well, my hat to you and I'd be more than ready to concede if... the game would have not gone in a different direction.

    I have always suggested for Anet to balance the game around the top level of gameplay...rather than the lower levels but that always seems to be a case by case instance, professions like : elementalist, ranger, thief get alwayes nerfed at the first resemblance of whining ...regardless of where it comes from......a bronze tiered newb who started few months ago can start a nerf thread about any of those 3 professions and he is sure to grab the attention of the whole community : my question is why people are always ready to jump the guns when they get bested by players using any of those 3 professions?

    It seems to me that regardless of what you play on an ele, on a ranger or on a thief...you're always considered a noob using OP class if you win, mind you truly OP specs will always appear on every class so ofc from time to time but that doesn't mean that everything on those professions is easy to use and deserving nerfs at every turn when they manage to pass the mediocre presence bar.

    In this same thread you find necro players who complain about Lightning rod ele when that spec is anything but user friendly, you lack condi removal, sustain and can be easily shut down by any +1 if you screw up your positioning and don't manage "to abuse" your mobility with super speed, it seems to me those players lost to a better player using ele also.

    When FA ele was nerfed...wasn't that a L2P issue too for those whining about the build? On that build you'd get 2 shotted if you'd screw up your kiting...still the build got deleted from the game 'cause of some whining...and FA ele was a good way to deal with necros on ele....guess what necro did in this case?!....Yeah whine and whine..and whine

    So in the end yeah....I can recognize my L2P issue....when will others start do the same?
    For as long as Anet keeps nerfing professions based on "L2P" threads.....it 's fair for me to say that all professions should receive the same treatment, in the end when nerfs start raining for the most silly reasons, professions start to lose their identity and ability to deal with problems.

    When you start nerfing all sources of dmg on a class like ele for the most "L2P" reasons...it's inevitable that people will start complaining in return...just food for thought......if I'd still have FA ele...I would have very little reason to complain about necros

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:
    i think reaper is fine as it is.. yes it has amazing damage.. but its a melee class cannon with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks ..
    its so easily to mute a reaper.. and im necro my self.. enough 1 tempest or 1 spell breaker and the reaper wont even cast a spell..
    it has minimal sustain .. honestly.. i did not i saw here focus 5 complain about 10k when you hit with 3 boons.. but havent seen anyone saying anything abiout over 20k crit from thief that just need to click 1 key for that.. or about shadow heart ..
    lich got its own drawbacks.. to a point where if its nerfed more reapers wont use it..
    slow AF . and last 5 seconds.. easy to target and cc . enough 1 tempest in party to cast reflect aura. and 10 seconds of lich form go to waste.. because if you fire 1 projectile you will kill your self.. or mesmer reflect . or scrapper to cast protection bubble. or renegade to cast healing..
    or just put dps pressure on him.. and he will be forced to go shroud to not die.. or hide in behind something or dance around its easy to miss attacks..
    however.. i will agree that its not cool that condi core necro use lich form and hit hard with it.. i accept reaper

    i think core necro is basically fine.. but lich form shouldnt hit so hard for a condi class.. maybe change the scaling on lich form.
    also when comes to core necro.. "fear" fear need to be nerfed heavily .. core necro can fear lock classes untill they die.. like 10 seconds of fear and their fear drain too much HP.. the fear definitely should be nerfed.. i also find them abit too tanky

    dude stop posting lol, reaper gets stability from
    1 reaper shroud
    or 2 lich if he runs it
    or 3 that aoe stun gives stab, so every reaper will have at least 2 ways of getting stab.
    and reaper usually run 3 stun removing tools so saying that they barely have any is laughable.

    you stop posting . reaper get stability from shroud 3 yes.. but reaper need to build up life force before he can use shroud . and need decent amount of it to keep it and not to watch it instnatly cancel .
    2 and 3 are both elite skills therefor you cant take both together !
    lich is per interval and it will be removed easily..
    reapers have stun breaks that provide no stability or evade.. they are very easy to focus and cc lock thats a fact

    you said " with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks "
    I pointed out that you have 2 sources of stability and 3 stun breaks, you even agreed with me. you know who gets stunned while focused? kitten everyone in the game ( exept thief ) so its not reaper specific.

    herald got maybe less stability and stun break than reaper and yet its way harder to focus.. called mobility and evades.
    and agian.. 1 "source " of stability is elite with tons of CD . and second is in shroud for which you need to build alot of life force.. reaper is targeted for its damage and often you will have super hard time untill you even build some life force as reaper.. if someone want you dead you will die before you even get to use that shroud 3 !
    and if you will use lich form for stability then omg?
    stun breaks.. lets talk stun breaks.. spectral walk which got nerfed hard. spectral armor which also got nerfed hard high cd stun break spell breaker got tons of cc and as i said 1 spell breaker can lock down a reaper . your stun breaks as reaper are meh and pointless beause you still got no mobility so if you break out of stun when focused is jsut to get stunned right away again.. most classes will ahve blocks/evades/mobility to get away .. reaper DONT!
    so yes i expect repear to keep its damage becaue reaper comes with a drawback and this drawback is heavy.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I donno other than lich autos is reaper that OP? I mean a speed rune is the common on pow reap to be most effective no? Maybe a tiny shave to life force generation or whatever to shave its sustain a bit, and I mean a shave not make it garbage. Reaper imo has slightly too much sustain for it's burst out put but not by a crazy amount. Reaper with speed runes and smart use of its utility skills can be pretty tricky in pvp especially when using some utilities like wurm and spect armor preemptively.
    To me it seemed like for the few months I played post feb patch with the damage reduction the necro as a whole just had slightly to much sustain comparatively but maybe things have changed, haven't logged on over the last few months.
    Are they meta in pvp now?

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Are they meta in pvp now?

    Of course not. 9 out of 10 noobs learned how to avoid getting lich'd in the meantime.

    Speaking about the metabuild (the only viable reaper build!): unholy martyr saw a big pvp nerf and generates only a tiny 9% of life force. That trait hurts more often than it helps in team fights now. Marauder and paladin amulets were nerfed (vita is basically the class attribute for necro - there you have your life force reducution!). Spectral walk does a lot at once, but has a huge cooldown now. The cooldown increase of that skill was a nerf to condi cleanse, mobility and life force generation - all at once.

    Every time when a reaper deals more than 2k damage with a single hit, another class can do that too. What do you think what damage sword of justice, maul, backstab etc. deal to a target that eats 5+k lich autos? Hint: it's more than 10k damage!

    I hope lich finally sees a nerf to the auto, that people can look for another thing they can blame for whatever. Lich is overrated anyway and a wasted skill slot above a certain skill level. And a nerf to that one trick pony elite maybe brings us necros a useful rework of the skill.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    If you are an ele player just stop while you are a head... ele has always been weak to necro and it likely always will be because chill counters your ability to rapidly attune. You can beat necros with ele but it wont be easy just like its not easy for necro to beat thieves just deal with it and learn to handle the counter match up better.

    ...That's rich coming from necros...truly rich...I remember few years back ....

    Does Diamond skin need a nerf ?
    You can be the best condi necro of the world and have not a single chance in a 1 v 1 against the worst ele of the world

    The jokes on you ive always been a power player even for core necro before reaper came out. While you can attempt to come at me with that diamond skin stuff there were ways around it like having more power and crit chance in your build and not fully investing in condi alone

    Practice what you preach is what necros should do, at the time you'd rather play the victim card instead than learn to handle the counter match up better

    We have been nerfed plenty alreayd if any thing the biggest advantage you got came with the feb patch with the removal of instant doom. Which was fair as it was a get out of jail free card even while stunned etc.
    But there have also been several life force generating reductions, the removal of certain amulets, and an increase on life force per second with core shroud.
    If you are still struggling at this point (not factoring in cheese lich for 10s every 3 minutes ) then its a you problem not the necro problem.

    I already said how i feel above and that some things do still need some changes but you skipped all that but if we are really going to balance things there are still many tools that ele needs nerfed as well i wont call them out but you should understand what i mean.

    So instead of telling me to practice what I preach how about you just generally practice.
    Just go out and fight necros im sure you can ask around for some players to help you get better at the match up.
    Truth is you have nothing to lose if necro nerfs do come you will be even better off at dealing with them. Stop praying to anet to nerf something into unplayability so you dont have a counter matchup every class is going to have a hard counter match up or two but that does not mean you cant win against them.

    There is nothing on ele I can't overcome while playing 3 other different professions and if I had time I'd play the remaining 5 and deal with ele just as easily, there are no big hits "to avoid at all costs" on ele , the best an average player can hope to do is gear up with a healing amulet and bother you to death......unless ofc we start talking about Piano musicians who reached Master level and had the patience to deal with the all the kitten coming from the balance patches...I am not one of those and that's why I started multiclassing years ago.

    Unless we face some TOP 100 ele with thousand hours under his belt and some tournament play who can most likely outsmart you....not class overpowering , we're talking about a dozen or so players against the hundreds upon hundreds of "pvpers" who use a necro. Worth mentioning those same ele players are actually multiclass so they'd win regardless on other professions with far less effort

    Any ele build with the sole exception of some healbot build will be always far harder than anything a necro can use and with that said I rebuke this fact : no average necro should lose to an average ele; any necro player who fall in that category....is not a position to preach anybody about "GITGUD"

    To put in low terms : any player who can best a necro while using the current iteration of elementalist.......hes' a far better player than me and you combined....try to remember that next time you try to use "L2P" against me, current necro has got all the tools to shut down your average ele without breaking a sweat .....if you lose to average ele while using a necro class you're accustomed to.......you may want to spend less time try to preach others

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    If you are an ele player just stop while you are a head... ele has always been weak to necro and it likely always will be because chill counters your ability to rapidly attune. You can beat necros with ele but it wont be easy just like its not easy for necro to beat thieves just deal with it and learn to handle the counter match up better.

    ...That's rich coming from necros...truly rich...I remember few years back ....

    Does Diamond skin need a nerf ?
    You can be the best condi necro of the world and have not a single chance in a 1 v 1 against the worst ele of the world

    The jokes on you ive always been a power player even for core necro before reaper came out. While you can attempt to come at me with that diamond skin stuff there were ways around it like having more power and crit chance in your build and not fully investing in condi alone

    Practice what you preach is what necros should do, at the time you'd rather play the victim card instead than learn to handle the counter match up better

    We have been nerfed plenty alreayd if any thing the biggest advantage you got came with the feb patch with the removal of instant doom. Which was fair as it was a get out of jail free card even while stunned etc.
    But there have also been several life force generating reductions, the removal of certain amulets, and an increase on life force per second with core shroud.
    If you are still struggling at this point (not factoring in cheese lich for 10s every 3 minutes ) then its a you problem not the necro problem.

    I already said how i feel above and that some things do still need some changes but you skipped all that but if we are really going to balance things there are still many tools that ele needs nerfed as well i wont call them out but you should understand what i mean.

    So instead of telling me to practice what I preach how about you just generally practice.
    Just go out and fight necros im sure you can ask around for some players to help you get better at the match up.
    Truth is you have nothing to lose if necro nerfs do come you will be even better off at dealing with them. Stop praying to anet to nerf something into unplayability so you dont have a counter matchup every class is going to have a hard counter match up or two but that does not mean you cant win against them.

    There is nothing on ele I can't overcome while playing 3 other different professions and if I had time I'd play the remaining 5 and deal with ele just as easily, there are no big hits "to avoid at all costs" on ele , the best an average player can hope to do is gear up with a healing amulet and bother you to death......unless ofc we start talking about Piano musicians who reached Master level and had the patience to deal with the all the kitten coming from the balance patches...I am not one of those and that's why I started multiclassing years ago.

    Unless we face some TOP 100 ele with thousand hours under his belt and some tournament play who can most likely outsmart you....not class overpowering , we're talking about a dozen or so players against the hundreds upon hundreds of "pvpers" who use a necro. Worth mentioning those same ele players are actually multiclass so they'd win regardless on other professions with far less effort

    Any ele build with the sole exception of some healbot build will be always far harder than anything a necro can use and with that said I rebuke this fact : no average necro should lose to an average ele; any necro player who fall in that category....is not a position to preach anybody about "GITGUD"

    To put in low terms : any player who can best a necro while using the current iteration of elementalist.......hes' a far better player than me and you combined....try to remember that next time you try to use "L2P" against me, current necro has got all the tools to shut down your average ele without breaking a sweat .....if you lose to average ele while using a necro class you're accustomed to.......you may want to spend less time try to preach others

    and thats a good thing? you want bring necro down to tickling ele? lvl? is it a good thing that ele is played mostly as support now?
    and just saying a good weaver is sooooo hard to fight .. its so tanky and it can still damage. yes it wont 1 shot you but it wont let you do anything it will put constant pressure on you.. weaver is maybe easily countering reaper. if the weaver is decent ! you overate reaper .. condi core necro is the more annoying one because of the endless fear

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    If you are an ele player just stop while you are a head... ele has always been weak to necro and it likely always will be because chill counters your ability to rapidly attune. You can beat necros with ele but it wont be easy just like its not easy for necro to beat thieves just deal with it and learn to handle the counter match up better.

    ...That's rich coming from necros...truly rich...I remember few years back ....

    Does Diamond skin need a nerf ?
    You can be the best condi necro of the world and have not a single chance in a 1 v 1 against the worst ele of the world

    The jokes on you ive always been a power player even for core necro before reaper came out. While you can attempt to come at me with that diamond skin stuff there were ways around it like having more power and crit chance in your build and not fully investing in condi alone

    Practice what you preach is what necros should do, at the time you'd rather play the victim card instead than learn to handle the counter match up better

    We have been nerfed plenty alreayd if any thing the biggest advantage you got came with the feb patch with the removal of instant doom. Which was fair as it was a get out of jail free card even while stunned etc.
    But there have also been several life force generating reductions, the removal of certain amulets, and an increase on life force per second with core shroud.
    If you are still struggling at this point (not factoring in cheese lich for 10s every 3 minutes ) then its a you problem not the necro problem.

    I already said how i feel above and that some things do still need some changes but you skipped all that but if we are really going to balance things there are still many tools that ele needs nerfed as well i wont call them out but you should understand what i mean.

    So instead of telling me to practice what I preach how about you just generally practice.
    Just go out and fight necros im sure you can ask around for some players to help you get better at the match up.
    Truth is you have nothing to lose if necro nerfs do come you will be even better off at dealing with them. Stop praying to anet to nerf something into unplayability so you dont have a counter matchup every class is going to have a hard counter match up or two but that does not mean you cant win against them.

    There is nothing on ele I can't overcome while playing 3 other different professions and if I had time I'd play the remaining 5 and deal with ele just as easily, there are no big hits "to avoid at all costs" on ele , the best an average player can hope to do is gear up with a healing amulet and bother you to death......unless ofc we start talking about Piano musicians who reached Master level and had the patience to deal with the all the kitten coming from the balance patches...I am not one of those and that's why I started multiclassing years ago.

    False there are things you want to avoid on ele at all cost depending on the build they run
    FA ele is particularly deadly any time they land a cc on you
    CC / Lightning rod weaver is also rather dangerous and has many things you want to avoid being hit by
    Certain condi weaver setups also have things you want to avoid unless you like burning to death.

    If you think that ele has no big hits to worry about thats saying a lot about your knowledge of the game OR maybe as a multi classer thats how you feel because you have options on those other classes to just negate what they can do. But as someone who spends most of their time playing necro because its my fav class thematically there are a lot of things that i dont want to be hit with because i dont have hard defenses to negate them. Its either burn one of my two dodges to avoid it or soak the damage. Those are the only options i get. I dont get blocks, or extra evades, stealth or invulns. Conditioning (blind/weakness) is an option some times but not always.
    My perspective is clearly different from yours.

    Any ele build with the sole exception of some healbot build will be always far harder than anything a necro can use and with that said I rebuke this fact : no average necro should lose to an average ele; any necro player who fall in that category....is not a position to preach anybody about "GITGUD"

    I think thats debatable go take a none minion master scourge build into pvp and see how well that goes for you. (Thats a joke by the way)
    Do not assume that effort should determine heavily how something should be balanced. Do not also assume that players dont put in effort to get better with the classes they love to play even if the tools are basic and simple. Mastering those basic tools can take someone along way. Like i said you sound just really upset that you lost the matchup too many times and here we are.

    I really dont get you though... you really are here going in on necro which is i mean i guess ok but in reality if we really look at things right now necro is far closer to balanced than many other classes in the game currently.
    The best you can do is pick out a few niche skills or triats that need some tweaks or reworks but every class and elite spec in the game has this issue thought... So i gotta say i really dont get the point...

    To put in low terms : any player who can best a necro while using the current iteration of elementalist.......hes' a far better player than me and you combined....try to remember that next time you try to use "L2P" against me, current necro has got all the tools to shut down your average ele without breaking a sweat .....if you lose to average ele while using a necro class you're accustomed to.......you may want to spend less time try to preach others

    ^You added this at some point when originally started writing my post so i figured i would respond to it also^

    lol it sounds like you want these hands in game but ima let you go i dont have anymore brain power to waist on this nonsense.
    Its almost like you are trying to be superior/threatening through other players whom are not you and better skilled than you which is kind of mind blowing.
    Ive said what i had to say. Your options are deal with it or hope that anet agrees with you and gives you your wish list of nerfs to solve all your problems while ignoring other obvious broken things that probably should be handled first. Either way i dont really care ill be playing necro as my main regardless. ITs what i do through the good and or bad as far as im concerned been there done that.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    -snip-

    As I have stated before : if you lose to average ele while using a necro class you're accustomed to.......you may want to spend less time try to preach others , there is a very good reason why we don't see LR ele played at the any point of the game where and when it counts , the spec is 90% melee based and lacks decent condi removal for the positioning required hence massive outplay of the enemy becomes a necessity and here we see the huge disparity in skill requirements to play an ele compared to...a necro.

    The average necro should be able to lay down few chill/fear marks underneath (unblockable marks btw) and just wait for the ele to forces his way at melee range; between ghastly claws and that staff, the necro has got all the tools to play the long game while ele hasn't got that luxury. Now the ele will have to be 4-5x better in order to have a chance...all the while he runs the risk of being +1 from all directions and just when the class lacks the tools to run away efficiently at the highest levels

    There is no comparison between a necro and ele in terms of commitment required, the first will require almost no effort compared to the latter at all times.

    Either way, I posted already a graph showing the popularity of each profession atm and I am sure the devs have noticed the huge influx of necros lately, at the very least I hope my suggested changes will be introduced as soon as possible

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    -snip-

    As I have stated before : if you lose to average ele while using a necro class you're accustomed to.......you may want to spend less time try to preach others , there is a very good reason why we don't see LR ele played at the any point of the game where and when it counts , the spec is 90% melee based and lacks decent condi removal for the positioning required hence massive outplay of the enemy becomes a necessity and here we see the huge disparity in skill requirements to play an ele compared to...a necro.

    and i stated before stop trying to use other players as and excuse to sound like you are better than other people. If you are ok good great carry on.
    Just deal with the fact that your counter is necro and always has been probably always will be.
    Or if you really want to not have to deal with necros play holo or thief, or guardian, or renegade. You have plenty of options that actually perform well over necro. The idea of saying something should be nerfed because its harder to play is not valid. By that logic scourge would be stronger than what it is right now and you certainly would take issue with that so stop it.

    The average necro should be able to lay down few chill/fear marks underneath (unblockable marks btw) and just wait for the ele to forces his way at melee range; between ghastly claws and that staff, the necro has got all the tools to play the long game while ele hasn't got that luxury. Now the ele will have to be 4-5x better in order to have a chance...all the while he runs the risk of being +1 from all directions and just when the class lacks the tools to run away efficiently at the highest levels

    Unblockable marks means nothing to to the majority of classes and builds in the game only the most useful against warriors, guardians, and some times revs.
    Everything else really lacks effective blocks or blocks entirely for that reasoning to matter.
    Yes we have a good axe weapon but our melee weapons (outside of shroud) suck
    Dagger is pretty trash and GS is slow generally mad unreliable (outside of a few setups) since they (fixed) gs5.

    Eele has better options for cc, invunerablity, better mobility skills, vigor access, a wider boon pool, and evade, and much faster dps ramp speed options that necro does not get in any of its elite specs so you can shut that argument down here and now. If you dont think ele has the above things then you are doing it wrong sorry to tell you. End of story.

    There is no comparison between a necro and ele in terms of commitment required, the first will require almost no effort compared to the latter at all times.

    Necro = no effort to play offensively i agree , how ever defensively requires good positioning and knowlage of other classes options and dodge management as you only get 2 with no raw access to vigor or skill that evade on use. Stability is now also super limited making you extremly weak to cc.

    Ele = takes more effort to play offensively and less to play defensively as it has hard defenses and good access to things like vigor, extra evade skills, better movement skills, and depending on the elite superior access to stability when compared to necromancer.

    Either way, I posted already a graph showing the popularity of each profession atm and I am sure the devs have noticed the huge influx of necros lately, at the very least I hope my suggested changes will be introduced as soon as possible

    Graphs like that show popularity across all game modes not just in pvp that graph means nothing in this post. further more both percentiles between necro and ele are less than 1% making it even more irrelevant.

    We already covered all this and as i started nothing you have said is really warrant for nerfs.
    Good day

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    I strongly suggest you to actually play elementalist , because right now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing without a single "shred" of evidence......

    Ele = takes more effort to play offensively and less to play defensively as it has hard defenses and good access to things like vigor, extra evade skills, better movement skills, and depending on the elite superior access to stability when compared to necromancer

    Like.....where are these hard defenses?
    -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Obsidian_Flesh
    -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Shield
    -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Form

    Are these the "hard defenses" you referring to?...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tornado

    Is this your "superior Elite"?.....sad....a strawman argument

    Just deal with the fact that your counter is necro and always has been probably always will be

    I will remind you of this sentence every time you'll pop out on the forum asking for nerfs.......we should start from these fresh "nerf ranger" threads every necro likes to pop in, where is your....."deal with the fact that your counter is X" argument? What is it? Can't deal with the idea of a counter to necro?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I strongly suggest you to actually play elementalist , because right now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing without a single "shred" of evidence......

    ive played it (im not that good at it but ive played it) im sure if i put 5-6k hours into it like i did on necro i would be great at it too. But thematically its not as fun as i had hoped it would be. It gets boring for me very quickly.

    Ele = takes more effort to play offensively and less to play defensively as it has hard defenses and good access to things like vigor, extra evade skills, better movement skills, and depending on the elite superior access to stability when compared to necromancer

    Like.....where are these hard defenses?
    -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Obsidian_Flesh
    -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Shield
    -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Form

    Are these the "hard defenses" you referring to?...

    Yes those are examples of hard defenses they stop/block/avoid damage all together
    Blocking/avoiding damage is always better than soaking damage there is no argument you could make that will make this statement untrue.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tornado

    Is this your "superior Elite"?.....sad....a strawman argument

    Lol its must be pretty good if anet is still nerfing it just saying bro...

    Just deal with the fact that your counter is necro and always has been probably always will be

    I will remind you of this sentence every time you'll pop out on the forum asking for nerfs.......we should start from these fresh "nerf ranger" threads every necro likes to pop in, where is your....."deal with the fact that your counter is X" argument? What is it? Can't deal with the idea of a counter to necro?

    Necro has many counters and i accept it when i lose to them.
    Ele unfortunately is not one of them in most build situations.
    Necro is most easily countered by
    Thief
    Warrior
    And Rangers (usually with a longbow setup)

    Generally over time you learn to get better at dealing with them and it feels great when you beat them. Sometimes you get outplayed and sometimes you cant do a darn thing about it and you will just lose. Thief has one build in-particular right now thats not popular that kills me every single time. Necro does not have enough of an open window to be able to outplay it but this is also the case for most other professions and high skilled players (far above my level of skill) agree with that most professions cant do anything about that specific build which means it is warranted for a nerf if it ever becomes meta. THANKFULLY ITS NOT POPULAR YET.

    If you spent as much time practicing and experimenting against the common necro/reaper builds as you do arguing on here with me you would have found by now that some way of dealing with them i bet.

  • Tank nectomancer is the only profession I know that can solo bounty bosses in PoF and I got flamed by one today for underperforming with my thief, please nerf them to the ground so the bigheads who play necromancer will be put into their own place once again.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    Tank nectomancer is the only profession I know that can solo bounty bosses in PoF and I got flamed by one today for underperforming with my thief, please nerf them to the ground so the bigheads who play necromancer will be put into their own place once again.

    What the kitten does PVE matter in PVP how is that relevant I can Bear Bow bounties solo too, should we nerf bear pets in pvp, also of course you are gona get flamed for playing badly a thief, no one can cover for thief since no one comes close to its niche, by queueing with thief you are saying that you will be controlling the nodes. If you play badly thief, your team feels it fully, cause they are outnumbered constantly, and being outnumbered sucks. You picked your poison, deal with it.