How is this class bad? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How is this class bad?

So this class didnt exist when i quit so giving it a shot after returning. I know leveling doesnt really count but Im having lots of fun. Also when I switch to my Guardian to do WvW theres always quite a few Revs running around. Yet when I see the first page of this forum its all doom and gloom and this is the worst class in the history of MMOs. Can someone please tell me when I will stop having fun and start being the red-headed step child of the gaming world so I can prepare myself?

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Comments

  • Flauvious.6195Flauvious.6195 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean you won't notice what weapons, skills or classes are good or bad during the leveling process or world explorations, all of that stuff is easy enough to blow through with basically anything. Only in end game stuff like raids and t4 fractals, or in pvp. Rev has one real build that is meta in raids, other builds simply have way inferior damage or support. Most classes have a lot more viable builds and can fill a few different roles. Rev is bad in pvp because it's very boon reliant and has no condi cleanse, and in a world of scourges corrupting boons and mirages insta bursting you with conditions, you can see why it struggles.

    Herald does a lot better in wvw than it does in pvp just because of the way fights work and the fact that its weapon skills don't have the same pvp specific nerfs they have in structured pvp.

  • Vasdamas Anklast.1607Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2018

    Because on WvW it is not as gutted as it is in SPvP but so are the other classes (9k shadowshots for example kek), you should try SPvP to see it. Good offense is all that makes revenant win the fights. I have no issues slaughtering 80% of WvW population I encounter in even fights myself whatsoever. The rest 20% however may be troubling most of the time because it's either scourges/mirages or other roamers who have at least minor concept of "counterplay" in their heads. And trust me, revenants are so easily outplayed.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can someone please tell me when I will stop having fun and start being the red-headed step child of the gaming world so I can prepare myself?

    Go PvP or WvW roaming and try to duel some Mirage. Then go PvE raids and try to be accepted in pug raids with any build outside condi viper Renegade.

    Probably you will find holes in the class way before, like when using Unrelenting Assault the game randomly freezes you inside the wireframe of the landscape, the fact that you can only have 15 underwater skills across 2 legends and a single weapon or the knowledge that Revenant is excluded from some mechanics on the game as alacrity because the way in which energy works. Also, the lack of build variety in the class is astonishing.

  • Klowdy.3126Klowdy.3126 Member ✭✭✭

    Fun doesn't mean a lot. In WoW, enhancement shaman is, imo, the most fun class to play, yet it is largely ignored for most high end content. My suggestion, level up your rev, and play it when you dont feel like being competitive (dungeons, OW/LW, fractals up to T3, WvW, maybe even unranked PvP). The class is fun, and there is always the chance revs could get lucky with the balance dart boards (from a previous post of mine lol).

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It has significant issues:

    1. Lack of diversity in builds and weapons. It also has the least amount of skills of any class.
    2. In end game PvE has only one viable build, condi renegade, that has long ramp-up and is nothing more than a copy past of previous iteration pre PoF with a larger damage multiplier.
    3. In sPvP, its design of energy and switching utilities is severely limiting. It has very limited tools to fight conditions, which plague sPvP.
    4. sPvP again, it only has one usable build (power herald). Everything else is trash. Even that build is weak.
    5. It has the most bugs of any class, and probably the most number of unused skills.

    I find the most major issue of the class is the legend swap system. It gives the illusion that you have many skills, but many of them are not usable in the game mode you are playing, with no option but to have them. Add that much of the time you switch the legend for energy purposes, you end up stuck with the tools that legend offers, even though they might be not functional at all for the situation you are in. Compare that with any other class, where everything is available all the time, and you are not locked by a stupid energy system. Once Rev over tuning era was over, it fell off a cliff to near obsolescence hampered by byzantine class mechanics.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, it is the forums, so a lot of "doom and gloom" is just QQ from confused bads who don't really get their class or who refuse to adapt their builds/playstyles with the ever changing meta. That said, I mean, Rev does have some weaknesses, but most of what you see on the forums is from people who like revenant for the lore, but want to play it like it's just a warrior with more flavor and not the way it's like, designed. I'm not sure what your end-game aspirations are for the game, but here's an objective breakdown of what you have in store for you playing Revenant:

    PvE: Has one of the top dps Raid Specs, but it has a pretty significant ramp up time to get going (as it's condition based damage). This ramp up time leaves it unoptimal for a couple of the raid encounters (KC, Sloth, River of Souls) and especially suffers in Fractals. And although group composition doesn't really matter in Fractals, this is where Renegade will get the most hate from elitists since everything dies/phases too quick for your dps to get going, and even if they don't die that fast (or have a lot of invulnerability phases), a lot of the bosses generally have a lot of movement, which either takes them out of your fire fields/citadel bombardments or causes you to delay casting them--plus, there's a lot of adds which absorb your group's Razorclaw empowered strikes. I full clear raid in a PUG setting every week and when I dps, I use Renegade on 11/17 encounters. (Support Renegade is also a viable build these days, but you still mostly see double druid in the PUG scene since it's covers your group incase one of the druids is bad/not full harriers).

    PvP: Rev will get most of its QQ here as it was designed to have condition damage as it's weakness, and since then, anet has pushed condi bursts/specs/damage to insane new levels. Most forum negativity in this area comes from people trying to 1v1 Mirages (which every class can't really 1v1--but especially Revs) and people who stand on point trying to brawler it up in team fights against scourges and eat all their condis/corrupts. While rev's close to the bottom tier in sPvP, a good rev player will still do fine... But objectively, there's a lot stronger class choices. Luckily, level and gear doesn't matter in sPvP, so you shouldn't let that deter you from your rev... If you don't want to tough it out in the uphill battle of spvp rev, you can always just make a Level 1 Scourge/Firebrand/Mirage/Spellbreaker and get your PvP kicks on whatever class is the OP one of the season.

    WvW: I don't WvW that much outside of the occasional roam for my dailies/boredom... But I think Rev's still desirable in WvW team skirmishes for it's resistance spam. (Although not as much as it used to be since the dawn of scourge/breakers.)

  • Klowdy.3126Klowdy.3126 Member ✭✭✭

    @narcx.3570 said:
    Well, it is the forums, so a lot of "doom and gloom" is just QQ from confused bads who don't really get their class or who refuse to adapt their builds/playstyles with the ever changing meta. That said, I mean, Rev does have some weaknesses, but most of what you see on the forums is from people who like revenant for the lore, but want to play it like it's just a warrior with more flavor and not the way it's like, designed. I'm not sure what your end-game aspirations are for the game, but here's an objective breakdown of what you have in store for you playing Revenant:

    PvE: Has one of the top dps Raid Specs, but it has a pretty significant ramp up time to get going (as it's condition based damage). This ramp up time leaves it unoptimal for a couple of the raid encounters (KC, Sloth, River of Souls) and especially suffers in Fractals. And although group composition doesn't really matter in Fractals, this is where Renegade will get the most hate from elitists since everything dies/phases too quick for your dps to get going, and even if they don't die that fast (or have a lot of invulnerability phases), a lot of the bosses generally have a lot of movement, which either takes them out of your fire fields/citadel bombardments or causes you to delay casting them--plus, there's a lot of adds which absorb your group's Razorclaw empowered strikes. I full clear raid in a PUG setting every week and when I dps, I use Renegade on 11/17 encounters. (Support Renegade is also a viable build these days, but you still mostly see double druid in the PUG scene since it's covers your group incase one of the druids is bad/not full harriers).

    PvP: Rev will get most of its QQ here as it was designed to have condition damage as it's weakness, and since then, anet has pushed condi bursts/specs/damage to insane new levels. Most forum negativity in this area comes from people trying to 1v1 Mirages (which every class can't really 1v1--but especially Revs) and people who stand on point trying to brawler it up in team fights against scourges and eat all their condis/corrupts. While rev's close to the bottom tier in sPvP, a good rev player will still do fine... But objectively, there's a lot stronger class choices. Luckily, level and gear doesn't matter in sPvP, so you shouldn't let that deter you from your rev... If you don't want to tough it out in the uphill battle of spvp rev, you can always just make a Level 1 Scourge/Firebrand/Mirage/Spellbreaker and get your PvP kicks on whatever class is the OP one of the season.

    WvW: I don't WvW that much outside of the occasional roam for my dailies/boredom... But I think Rev's still desirable in WvW team skirmishes for it's resistance spam. (Although not as much as it used to be since the dawn of scourge/breakers.)

    No, just about everything said by others is correct. There is no build diversity, there are too many unused skills, energy cost with a CD is clunky, legends are clunky. Just because you refuse to see the problems, doesn't mean they aren't there. No other class has to adapt to the problems rev has. How are you supposed to adapt clunkiness, or a lack of options in utilities. You can't set up abilities like you want to, as with every other class, you are stuck with two sets that, combined, cover half of what you need.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Biff.5312 said:
    The people who post on the forums are mostly concerned with pvp or raiding - aspects of the game I don't even participate in. What I've found is that for the most part their concerns are irrelevant to me.

    Ya, but I can mash any build on any class with any gear and I will be fine in open world PvE. Trying to use open world PvE as a measure for class performance is pretty silly.

    And to be honest, the only reliable rev open world PvE build is power herald. The condi build ramp-up now is bordering on idiotic, pushing them way out of any viability but fighting champions. Compare that with guardian, I can come with at least a dozen of fairly strong open world PvE builds with various weapons. Diversity here is a killer.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2018

    @Klowdy.3126 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:
    Well, it is the forums, so a lot of "doom and gloom" is just QQ from confused bads who don't really get their class or who refuse to adapt their builds/playstyles with the ever changing meta. That said, I mean, Rev does have some weaknesses, but most of what you see on the forums is from people who like revenant for the lore, but want to play it like it's just a warrior with more flavor and not the way it's like, designed. I'm not sure what your end-game aspirations are for the game, but here's an objective breakdown of what you have in store for you playing Revenant:

    PvE: Has one of the top dps Raid Specs, but it has a pretty significant ramp up time to get going (as it's condition based damage). This ramp up time leaves it unoptimal for a couple of the raid encounters (KC, Sloth, River of Souls) and especially suffers in Fractals. And although group composition doesn't really matter in Fractals, this is where Renegade will get the most hate from elitists since everything dies/phases too quick for your dps to get going, and even if they don't die that fast (or have a lot of invulnerability phases), a lot of the bosses generally have a lot of movement, which either takes them out of your fire fields/citadel bombardments or causes you to delay casting them--plus, there's a lot of adds which absorb your group's Razorclaw empowered strikes. I full clear raid in a PUG setting every week and when I dps, I use Renegade on 11/17 encounters. (Support Renegade is also a viable build these days, but you still mostly see double druid in the PUG scene since it's covers your group incase one of the druids is bad/not full harriers).

    PvP: Rev will get most of its QQ here as it was designed to have condition damage as it's weakness, and since then, anet has pushed condi bursts/specs/damage to insane new levels. Most forum negativity in this area comes from people trying to 1v1 Mirages (which every class can't really 1v1--but especially Revs) and people who stand on point trying to brawler it up in team fights against scourges and eat all their condis/corrupts. While rev's close to the bottom tier in sPvP, a good rev player will still do fine... But objectively, there's a lot stronger class choices. Luckily, level and gear doesn't matter in sPvP, so you shouldn't let that deter you from your rev... If you don't want to tough it out in the uphill battle of spvp rev, you can always just make a Level 1 Scourge/Firebrand/Mirage/Spellbreaker and get your PvP kicks on whatever class is the OP one of the season.

    WvW: I don't WvW that much outside of the occasional roam for my dailies/boredom... But I think Rev's still desirable in WvW team skirmishes for it's resistance spam. (Although not as much as it used to be since the dawn of scourge/breakers.)

    No, just about everything said by others is correct. There is no build diversity, there are too many unused skills, energy cost with a CD is clunky, legends are clunky. Just because you refuse to see the problems, doesn't mean they aren't there. No other class has to adapt to the problems rev has. How are you supposed to adapt clunkiness, or a lack of options in utilities. You can't set up abilities like you want to, as with every other class, you are stuck with two sets that, combined, cover half of what you need.

    Anyone who complains about energy cost restrictions is exactly who I'm talking about in the first paragraph when I say they want a face roll, spam all their skills off cd, play style similar to that of some of the other classes... You can embrace the energy system and practice smart resource management and skill priority, even using it to your advantage to make up dps that you missed out on doing mechanics, or you can blow all your energy on something stupid and then complain that other classes don't have such restrictions. Playing Rev and complaining about energy management is like playing Weaver and complaining that you have to change attunements so much... It's literally the core dynamic of the class.

    As for a lack of build diversity, Revenant has one meta dps spec and one meta support spec--the same as Rangers, Mesmer's, and Elementalists.... Warriors and Necros have one spec... Thiefs, Guardians, and Engineers have two viable specs, but they are both for dps roles and they are not both usually viable for every encounter--one vastly out performs the other from fight to fight. And if you mean simply that you can't change your utilities... Let's be realistic. In end game PvE, every class uses pretty much the exact same builds and utilities, maybe with small variations (i.e. some DH using Zeal>Virtues cuz he thinks he'll get hit a lot, or a Weaver using Signet of Fire cuz they don't think their group will have enough weakness generation, etc). You're not going to be raiding and have somebody playing Double Axe DPS Warrior or Power Reaper, the same as you're not going to see a Power Herald. While maybe Revenant's utility choices are physically locked by their legend choices, the other classes' choices are just as locked by performance, usefulness, and communal elitism as a whole.

  • Klowdy.3126Klowdy.3126 Member ✭✭✭

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Klowdy.3126 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:
    Well, it is the forums, so a lot of "doom and gloom" is just QQ from confused bads who don't really get their class or who refuse to adapt their builds/playstyles with the ever changing meta. That said, I mean, Rev does have some weaknesses, but most of what you see on the forums is from people who like revenant for the lore, but want to play it like it's just a warrior with more flavor and not the way it's like, designed. I'm not sure what your end-game aspirations are for the game, but here's an objective breakdown of what you have in store for you playing Revenant:

    PvE: Has one of the top dps Raid Specs, but it has a pretty significant ramp up time to get going (as it's condition based damage). This ramp up time leaves it unoptimal for a couple of the raid encounters (KC, Sloth, River of Souls) and especially suffers in Fractals. And although group composition doesn't really matter in Fractals, this is where Renegade will get the most hate from elitists since everything dies/phases too quick for your dps to get going, and even if they don't die that fast (or have a lot of invulnerability phases), a lot of the bosses generally have a lot of movement, which either takes them out of your fire fields/citadel bombardments or causes you to delay casting them--plus, there's a lot of adds which absorb your group's Razorclaw empowered strikes. I full clear raid in a PUG setting every week and when I dps, I use Renegade on 11/17 encounters. (Support Renegade is also a viable build these days, but you still mostly see double druid in the PUG scene since it's covers your group incase one of the druids is bad/not full harriers).

    PvP: Rev will get most of its QQ here as it was designed to have condition damage as it's weakness, and since then, anet has pushed condi bursts/specs/damage to insane new levels. Most forum negativity in this area comes from people trying to 1v1 Mirages (which every class can't really 1v1--but especially Revs) and people who stand on point trying to brawler it up in team fights against scourges and eat all their condis/corrupts. While rev's close to the bottom tier in sPvP, a good rev player will still do fine... But objectively, there's a lot stronger class choices. Luckily, level and gear doesn't matter in sPvP, so you shouldn't let that deter you from your rev... If you don't want to tough it out in the uphill battle of spvp rev, you can always just make a Level 1 Scourge/Firebrand/Mirage/Spellbreaker and get your PvP kicks on whatever class is the OP one of the season.

    WvW: I don't WvW that much outside of the occasional roam for my dailies/boredom... But I think Rev's still desirable in WvW team skirmishes for it's resistance spam. (Although not as much as it used to be since the dawn of scourge/breakers.)

    No, just about everything said by others is correct. There is no build diversity, there are too many unused skills, energy cost with a CD is clunky, legends are clunky. Just because you refuse to see the problems, doesn't mean they aren't there. No other class has to adapt to the problems rev has. How are you supposed to adapt clunkiness, or a lack of options in utilities. You can't set up abilities like you want to, as with every other class, you are stuck with two sets that, combined, cover half of what you need.

    Anyone who complains about energy cost restrictions is exactly who I'm talking about in the first paragraph when I say they want a face roll, spam all their skills off cd, play style similar to that of some of the other classes... You can embrace the energy system and practice smart resource management and skill priority, even using it to your advantage to make up dps that you missed out on doing mechanics, or you can blow all your energy on something stupid and then complain that other classes don't have such restrictions. Playing Rev and complaining about energy management is like playing Weaver and complaining that you have to change attunements so much... It's literally the core dynamic of the class.

    As for a lack of build diversity, Revenant has one meta dps spec and one meta support spec--the same as Rangers, Mesmer's, and Elementalists.... Warriors and Necros have one spec... Thiefs, Guardians, and Engineers have two viable specs, but they are both for dps roles and they are not both usually viable for every encounter--one vastly out performs the other from fight to fight. And if you mean simply that you can't change your utilities... Let's be realistic. In end game PvE, every class uses pretty much the exact same builds and utilities, maybe with small variations (i.e. some DH using Zeal>Virtues cuz he thinks he'll get hit a lot, or a Weaver using Signet of Fire cuz they don't think their group will have enough weakness generation, etc). You're not going to be raiding and have somebody playing Double Axe DPS Warrior or Power Reaper, the same as you're not going to see a Power Herald. While maybe Revenant's utility choices are physically locked by their legend choices, the other classes' choices are just as locked by performance, usefulness, and communal elitism as a whole.

    You are the minority then. You know, when I was much younger, I used to make my busted kitten car work, too. It's so much nicer having one that works well.

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2018

    Rev support is not meta in raid after druid got the GotL change. Handkiter doesn't count because it is literally only one boss and Spellbreakers, Soulbeast and Guardian can do it as well now. Power Reaper is actually pretty strong in t4's, condi reaper is viable in raids along with scourge support but by no means meta.

    Having a slow rampup condi build as pretty much your only dps option in raids, cm and some t4's is a problem not specifically tied to Rev since other specs suffer from this as well.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Klowdy.3126 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:
    Well, it is the forums, so a lot of "doom and gloom" is just QQ from confused bads who don't really get their class or who refuse to adapt their builds/playstyles with the ever changing meta. That said, I mean, Rev does have some weaknesses, but most of what you see on the forums is from people who like revenant for the lore, but want to play it like it's just a warrior with more flavor and not the way it's like, designed. I'm not sure what your end-game aspirations are for the game, but here's an objective breakdown of what you have in store for you playing Revenant:

    PvE: Has one of the top dps Raid Specs, but it has a pretty significant ramp up time to get going (as it's condition based damage). This ramp up time leaves it unoptimal for a couple of the raid encounters (KC, Sloth, River of Souls) and especially suffers in Fractals. And although group composition doesn't really matter in Fractals, this is where Renegade will get the most hate from elitists since everything dies/phases too quick for your dps to get going, and even if they don't die that fast (or have a lot of invulnerability phases), a lot of the bosses generally have a lot of movement, which either takes them out of your fire fields/citadel bombardments or causes you to delay casting them--plus, there's a lot of adds which absorb your group's Razorclaw empowered strikes. I full clear raid in a PUG setting every week and when I dps, I use Renegade on 11/17 encounters. (Support Renegade is also a viable build these days, but you still mostly see double druid in the PUG scene since it's covers your group incase one of the druids is bad/not full harriers).

    PvP: Rev will get most of its QQ here as it was designed to have condition damage as it's weakness, and since then, anet has pushed condi bursts/specs/damage to insane new levels. Most forum negativity in this area comes from people trying to 1v1 Mirages (which every class can't really 1v1--but especially Revs) and people who stand on point trying to brawler it up in team fights against scourges and eat all their condis/corrupts. While rev's close to the bottom tier in sPvP, a good rev player will still do fine... But objectively, there's a lot stronger class choices. Luckily, level and gear doesn't matter in sPvP, so you shouldn't let that deter you from your rev... If you don't want to tough it out in the uphill battle of spvp rev, you can always just make a Level 1 Scourge/Firebrand/Mirage/Spellbreaker and get your PvP kicks on whatever class is the OP one of the season.

    WvW: I don't WvW that much outside of the occasional roam for my dailies/boredom... But I think Rev's still desirable in WvW team skirmishes for it's resistance spam. (Although not as much as it used to be since the dawn of scourge/breakers.)

    No, just about everything said by others is correct. There is no build diversity, there are too many unused skills, energy cost with a CD is clunky, legends are clunky. Just because you refuse to see the problems, doesn't mean they aren't there. No other class has to adapt to the problems rev has. How are you supposed to adapt clunkiness, or a lack of options in utilities. You can't set up abilities like you want to, as with every other class, you are stuck with two sets that, combined, cover half of what you need.

    Anyone who complains about energy cost restrictions is exactly who I'm talking about in the first paragraph when I say they want a face roll, spam all their skills off cd, play style similar to that of some of the other classes... You can embrace the energy system and practice smart resource management and skill priority, even using it to your advantage to make up dps that you missed out on doing mechanics, or you can blow all your energy on something stupid and then complain that other classes don't have such restrictions. Playing Rev and complaining about energy management is like playing Weaver and complaining that you have to change attunements so much... It's literally the core dynamic of the class.

    As for a lack of build diversity, Revenant has one meta dps spec and one meta support spec--the same as Rangers, Mesmer's, and Elementalists.... Warriors and Necros have one spec... Thiefs, Guardians, and Engineers have two viable specs, but they are both for dps roles and they are not both usually viable for every encounter--one vastly out performs the other from fight to fight. And if you mean simply that you can't change your utilities... Let's be realistic. In end game PvE, every class uses pretty much the exact same builds and utilities, maybe with small variations (i.e. some DH using Zeal>Virtues cuz he thinks he'll get hit a lot, or a Weaver using Signet of Fire cuz they don't think their group will have enough weakness generation, etc). You're not going to be raiding and have somebody playing Double Axe DPS Warrior or Power Reaper, the same as you're not going to see a Power Herald. While maybe Revenant's utility choices are physically locked by their legend choices, the other classes' choices are just as locked by performance, usefulness, and communal elitism as a whole.

    There are a couple of issues with rev design that no other class suffers. Only rev and thief have a resource system, but only rev has also utilities and F-skills tied to the resource system.

    Compared to Ele, yes Ele relies on water for suvivability. The big difference is water is always available, since you only switch to it when survivability is needed. For rev you are forced to switch cuz you either need to heal or to maintain damage. In addition Ele skills are not gated by resource, the way rev is.

    And ya, things work in PvE, but it is cuz in PvE suvivability is not an issue and things are pretty systematic. But even there, condi rev is middle of the pack and has a pretty long ramp-up. I play FB, and FB in griver gear can stack like 7-8K burns in 2-3 secs. Power rev is not a thing.

    The rev design failures can be circumvented through brute force, as was the case early in HoT. After it was brought down to reality (a bit further down) it just does not work. I still enjoy class animations, and condi rev. But playing condi rev in sPvP is currently not even remotely an option.

    Honestly, no other class have to deal with such unnecessarily non-functional systems. It is too late to remove them now. Reducing the energy restrictions and completely removing healing skills from legend swap (with adjusting their CDs) will be a huge step in the right direction. This way I am not forced to switch legends to be able to heal and maintain resource, but switch legends to access skills as I need them, like every kitten class in the game.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2018

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    Rev support is not meta in raid after druid got the GotL change.

    If anything, the change to GotL (and spirits) is what made Rev support viable in the first place...? If you need a second druid to keep up 25 stacks of might, what you really need is a competent first druid (especially since they fixed the low duration bug last patch.)

  • @narcx.3570 said:
    Well, it is the forums, so a lot of "doom and gloom" is just QQ from confused bads who don't really get their class or who refuse to adapt their builds/playstyles with the ever changing meta. That said, I mean, Rev does have some weaknesses, but most of what you see on the forums is from people who like revenant for the lore, but want to play it like it's just a warrior with more flavor and not the way it's like, designed. I'm not sure what your end-game aspirations are for the game, but here's an objective breakdown of what you have in store for you playing Revenant:

    PvE: Has one of the top dps Raid Specs, but it has a pretty significant ramp up time to get going (as it's condition based damage). This ramp up time leaves it unoptimal for a couple of the raid encounters (KC, Sloth, River of Souls) and especially suffers in Fractals. And although group composition doesn't really matter in Fractals, this is where Renegade will get the most hate from elitists since everything dies/phases too quick for your dps to get going, and even if they don't die that fast (or have a lot of invulnerability phases), a lot of the bosses generally have a lot of movement, which either takes them out of your fire fields/citadel bombardments or causes you to delay casting them--plus, there's a lot of adds which absorb your group's Razorclaw empowered strikes. I full clear raid in a PUG setting every week and when I dps, I use Renegade on 11/17 encounters. (Support Renegade is also a viable build these days, but you still mostly see double druid in the PUG scene since it's covers your group incase one of the druids is bad/not full harriers).

    PvP: Rev will get most of its QQ here as it was designed to have condition damage as it's weakness, and since then, anet has pushed condi bursts/specs/damage to insane new levels. Most forum negativity in this area comes from people trying to 1v1 Mirages (which every class can't really 1v1--but especially Revs) and people who stand on point trying to brawler it up in team fights against scourges and eat all their condis/corrupts. While rev's close to the bottom tier in sPvP, a good rev player will still do fine... But objectively, there's a lot stronger class choices. Luckily, level and gear doesn't matter in sPvP, so you shouldn't let that deter you from your rev... If you don't want to tough it out in the uphill battle of spvp rev, you can always just make a Level 1 Scourge/Firebrand/Mirage/Spellbreaker and get your PvP kicks on whatever class is the OP one of the season.

    WvW: I don't WvW that much outside of the occasional roam for my dailies/boredom... But I think Rev's still desirable in WvW team skirmishes for it's resistance spam. (Although not as much as it used to be since the dawn of scourge/breakers.)

    The meta build for Rev in WvW is zerk hammer. Coalescence of Ruin hits like 15 enemies on a really short CD and it hits like a freight train. You can 1 or 2 shot people with it at max range.

  • I can only speak from a pve perspective, and I've only played renegade in high level fractals, so I don't have any other metrics to compare. Let me just say, sometimes it feels like even my power soulbeast would be a better pick for some of the T4 groups I've had, with how quickly things die when your group doesn't suck. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but there are times when I feel like I'm not contributing anything. And forget about carrying bad pugs, condi renegade needs some serious babysitting to get its max damage going.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2018

    @narcx.3570 said:
    Well, it is the forums, so a lot of "doom and gloom" is just QQ from confused bads who don't really get their class or who refuse to adapt their builds/playstyles with the ever changing meta.

    There was no change in the "ever changing meta" at PvP for the class since the HoT release. Condi Rev was nerfed after a few weeks and power Herald is the only build for 2 years in a row. At the beguinning at least you had the option to run Retribution instead of Invocation, but that traitline was butchered at the end of 2016 son everyone went Devastation + Invocation + Herald 24/7/365. Sword, a little hesitation about the second hand and staff. The same rune since forever (Durability until banned, then either Leadership or Surging). There's nothing to adapt because the only changes in two years were nerfs in damage, nerfs in procs, nerfs in access to stability and a rewortk in the sword to make it a suicidal glass cannon. Oh, and we got an stunbreak in Mallyx... only problem is that Mallyx doesn't work in PvP so, who cares?

    Yes, legend can be achieved with the class, for players exceptionally good which would get the same with any other class, at half of the effort. But even if Rev were meta at PvP (which isn't) that wouldn't change the fact that the class has 0 build variety and the whole PoF spec and exclusive new weapon has no use in PvP or WvW.

    So is neither the forums nor the "refusing to adapt". Same build in two years. Only weaker. And with its hard counter (condis) ramped up to eleven.  This is Spinal Tap.
    
  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2018

    @narcx.3570 said:
    If anything, the change to GotL (and spirits) is what made Rev support viable in the first place...? If you need a second druid to keep up 25 stacks of might, what you really need is a competent first druid (especially since they fixed the low duration bug last patch.)

    Viable =\= meta.

    You run 2 druids for the massive amount of utility they bring that support rev lacks because all it really brings is alacrity, 300 range might stacking (lol) and overhealing that is pretty much wasted. Honestly I would rather have a heal ele over a support rev on fights like sloth and mathias for example. Fights like MO and Souless Horror are decent for it because Renegade support does a decent amount of damage for a support if you do not need the utility Druid brings.

    Right now support rev is niche. If they add an encounter in the future that has a ton of pulsing damage going out then Ventari rev will probably be mandatory.

  • Sartharina.3542Sartharina.3542 Member ✭✭✭

    The way I see it - you start running into problems with Revenant when you start hitting its bugs, or notice just how limited it is compared to every other class.

    The class is quite wonky. Its numbers seem to be acceptable, but getting them is a problem. While it can do a lot, everything else can do it a little bit better.

  • The class is a jack of all trades in a game where you have to be a master in something. There are several things the revenant can do, but other classes do better:

    (1) A renegade can keep a group might capped. This is good, but they don't do it as well as a druid can.
    (2) A renegade can boon strip. This is good, but they are neither as consistent nor as powerful as the chronomancer and scourge respectively.
    (3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.
    (4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.
    (5) A renegade has average ramp up time and serviceable damage. However, it is beaten out by half of the classes.
    (6) A herald has good boon granting abilities. But they have only one unique boon, and nearly everything they do is covered by other classes.
    (7) A herald has excellent self-sustaining abilities, even on a power build. But, healers are commonplace now.
    (8) A herald has mediocre sustained DPS and no burst.

    About the only things really stellar on the class are its CC and the projectile reflection. The Revenant is not incapable in any matter. So long as you have your wits about you, a rev can fulfill multiple roles and do many things. But, if you need a highly specialized role or if you're on a team that believes such, then the Rev is almost never an ideal option.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Revenant isn't "bad". It's a fun class that works if you know what you are doing. In PvE it's fine. In PvP it has issues.

    However those issues are mainly due to how anet mishandled PoF. Every other class ( except ele ) received an overloaded new spec that has it all. Great defense. Great offense. Invulns up the wazoo. 4s stab on 6s cooldown. Stunbreaks on dodge. Free mobility. spammable barriers.

    Revenant got Renegade. Renegade is a fairly balanced spec around condi damage and some new abilities. However, this is exactly the problem. It's balanced in a meta where everything else is busted. Renegade has kitten for defensive options to deal with the power creep, and thus Revenant is forced to still play Herald or even "core" Revenant, both of which are also negatively affected by having to deal with OP PoF specs.

  • Kako.1930Kako.1930 Member ✭✭✭

    Rev isn't bad, there are just other professions that are too good right now and everyone wants to play what's best. When you want to play rev and you give it a fair chance, you may find that you love it if you aren't comparing it to any other profession.

    A random thing I just thought about was if rev was the only profession in the game it would be fine and no one would complain about how weak it is. It's only when you compare it to other more powerful specs that it loses it's shine.

    I guess it depends on what you want out of the game and how you play though. Since I'm mostly just an open world roamer I'm perfectly content with running around on my revenant, but the same can be said about any other profession too.

    If you try to bring your rev into high level fractals and raids or PvP, that's where you'll notice its weaknesses more.

  • Jack Skywalker.5674Jack Skywalker.5674 Member ✭✭
    edited January 5, 2018

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    The class is a jack of all trades in a game where you have to be a master in something. There are several things the revenant can do, but other classes do better:

    (1) A renegade can keep a group might capped. This is good, but they don't do it as well as a druid can.
    (2) A renegade can boon strip. This is good, but they are neither as consistent nor as powerful as the chronomancer and scourge respectively.
    (3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.
    (4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.
    (5) A renegade has average ramp up time and serviceable damage. However, it is beaten out by half of the classes.
    (6) A herald has good boon granting abilities. But they have only one unique boon, and nearly everything they do is covered by other classes.
    (7) A herald has excellent self-sustaining abilities, even on a power build. But, healers are commonplace now.
    (8) A herald has mediocre sustained DPS and no burst.

    About the only things really stellar on the class are its CC and the projectile reflection. The Revenant is not incapable in any matter. So long as you have your wits about you, a rev can fulfill multiple roles and do many things. But, if you need a highly specialized role or if you're on a team that believes such, then the Rev is almost never an ideal option.

    I would like to add several comments here :
    1) A healing rev can cover the roles of both Chronomancer and Druid - making more room for damage dealers in the party
    2) Boon striping isn't limited to Renegade,you can do it on core as well - it's just as weak when compared to chrono and scourge
    3) There are 2 types of healing revenants, Renegades and Heralds: Herald healers apply protection very easy, while Renegades gain one extra skill with which to apply alacrity. This is ignoring the benefits gained from the Herald and Renegade unique stances.

    Here is some advanced reading material: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7bnpku/raid_support_renegade/
    The support role is the main reason why you would create a Revenant,so I won't give you guides on how to make Power Herald or Condi Renegade.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

    2) Boon striping isn't limited to Renegade,you can do it on core as well - it's just as weak when compared to chrono and scourge

    The pro of using a Renegade for your boon strip is that you can remove 6 boons in a burst rather than waiting for Chronos' AA chains or making the chronos have to spike down their alacrity using sword 3 for it. While it's not that useful on fights like VG where it's just 1 boon you hafta get, it's super nice on bosses like Dhuum to instantly strip all his stolen boons. A Scourge can obviously also do this, but a scourge's DPS is much lower than a Condi Renegade... Especially after you factor in Assassin's Presence and Dhuum's large hitbox. (Also Unyielding Anguish and Staff 3/5 are both nice luxuries in the 10% phase.)

  • Jack Skywalker.5674Jack Skywalker.5674 Member ✭✭
    edited January 6, 2018

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

    2) Boon striping isn't limited to Renegade,you can do it on core as well - it's just as weak when compared to chrono and scourge

    The pro of using a Renegade for your boon strip is that you can remove 6 boons in a burst rather than waiting for Chronos' AA chains or making the chronos have to spike down their alacrity using sword 3 for it. While it's not that useful on fights like VG where it's just 1 boon you hafta get, it's super nice on bosses like Dhuum to instantly strip all his stolen boons. A Scourge can obviously also do this, but a scourge's DPS is much lower than a Condi Renegade... Especially after you factor in Assassin's Presence and Dhuum's large hitbox. (Also Unyielding Anguish and Staff 3/5 are both nice luxuries in the 10% phase.)

    Which part of Renegade enables such potent boon strip?I believe this feature eludes me from the abilities gained from Renegade specialization.
    I can remove 6 boons with core by spaming Banish Enchantment,but that skill is a feature of core Revenant.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

    2) Boon striping isn't limited to Renegade,you can do it on core as well - it's just as weak when compared to chrono and scourge

    The pro of using a Renegade for your boon strip is that you can remove 6 boons in a burst rather than waiting for Chronos' AA chains or making the chronos have to spike down their alacrity using sword 3 for it. While it's not that useful on fights like VG where it's just 1 boon you hafta get, it's super nice on bosses like Dhuum to instantly strip all his stolen boons. A Scourge can obviously also do this, but a scourge's DPS is much lower than a Condi Renegade... Especially after you factor in Assassin's Presence and Dhuum's large hitbox. (Also Unyielding Anguish and Staff 3/5 are both nice luxuries in the 10% phase.)

    Which part of Renegade enables such potent boon strip?I believe this feature eludes me from the abilities gained from Renegade specialization.
    I can remove 6 boons with core by spaming Banish Enchantment,but that skill is a feature of core Revenant.

    Yeah, I was directing that at "weak when compared to chrono and scourge," not core revenant... But, I'll stand by the argument that you need Renegade to boonstrip Dhuum, since nobody is going to let you play your core revenant in there in the first place.

  • Jack Skywalker.5674Jack Skywalker.5674 Member ✭✭
    edited January 7, 2018

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

    2) Boon striping isn't limited to Renegade,you can do it on core as well - it's just as weak when compared to chrono and scourge

    The pro of using a Renegade for your boon strip is that you can remove 6 boons in a burst rather than waiting for Chronos' AA chains or making the chronos have to spike down their alacrity using sword 3 for it. While it's not that useful on fights like VG where it's just 1 boon you hafta get, it's super nice on bosses like Dhuum to instantly strip all his stolen boons. A Scourge can obviously also do this, but a scourge's DPS is much lower than a Condi Renegade... Especially after you factor in Assassin's Presence and Dhuum's large hitbox. (Also Unyielding Anguish and Staff 3/5 are both nice luxuries in the 10% phase.)

    Which part of Renegade enables such potent boon strip?I believe this feature eludes me from the abilities gained from Renegade specialization.
    I can remove 6 boons with core by spaming Banish Enchantment,but that skill is a feature of core Revenant.

    Yeah, I was directing that at "weak when compared to chrono and scourge," not core revenant... But, I'll stand by the argument that you need Renegade to boonstrip Dhuum, since nobody is going to let you play your core revenant in there in the first place.

    True, no one will ever accept core Revenants in their party because when compared to the cores of other classes, core Revenant can not stand on it's own in end game content and any form of pvp, but what I am trying to do by underlining the fact that boon striping isn't limited to Renegade is to highlight that Herald and all future elite specs can do this much boon striping if need be .

  • @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    (2) A renegade can boon strip. This is good, but they are neither as consistent nor as powerful as the chronomancer and scourge respectively.

    This is entirely situational. Renegade is taken for it's massive boon strip on Dhuum specifically because it can rip 10 boons from 100 energy in under 2.5 seconds.

    (3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.

    False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity.

    (4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.

    False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

    (5) A renegade has average ramp up time and serviceable damage. However, it is beaten out by half of the classes.

    This only looks this way on benchmarks because Assassin's Presence isn't taken into account. It's a 1-5k dps increase for the subgroup (depending on who is in it), but isn't actually factored into its dps. Engineer is the only class with (slightly) higher dps that also provides a unique buff. This means that a 32k benchmarked rev is actually bringing 33-37k to the group, some of it is just spread to other classes and factored into their dps. This is the reason everyone loves warrior and druid; they do the same thing.

    But, if you need a highly specialized role or if you're on a team that believes such, then the Rev is almost never an ideal option.

    I totally disagree with this. In fact, it's the specialization that makes rev strong. If you already have a druid and you need a second healer imo it's the best of the 4 options you could have. If you need an alacrity bot to complement a quickness firebrand it's as good/better than chrono. If you need really solid condi dps, it's one of the best for this. If you need a handkiter at deimos, it's by far the best option for this. People say it's a jack of all trades, which is true in some ways, but it's also incredibly good at being that highly specialized role as well. You can do literally everything besides decent power dps and quickness upkeep as a revenant.

    Also btw, Revenant is the meta class on half the bosses in raids atm, so to say it's almost never ideal is wrong. It's only beaten out on bosses where Mirage or Power DPS is better, and even in those situations it's still respectable (with the exception of KC).

  • Omnicron.2467Omnicron.2467 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2018

    Some really helpful comments in this thread. Will just add my 2cents of experience. I also saw the doom and gloom on the forums, but made a rev anyway and saw that despite it maybe not being an ideal meta class I had a lot of fun playing it so I was happy and boosted it to 80. I had fun for a few months, but recently I started feeling the staleness of the legend system. When you realise you cannot swap out skills and customise and play around with your class but that you are stuck doing the same thing over and over I got pretty bored with the class :( So coming back to your question about when the bubble will burst, I would say it takes a few months before you might get bored of the playstyle and frustrated by the limitations

  • has no invulnerable skill (unless you count herald heal which means you are forced to play herald) and no stealth,

    so in pvp it will always be the first to get ganked.

    block is useless as everyone (especially necros) have skills that can bypass block.

    and has one of the worst down skills

    so every fight be in pvp or WvW is you getting ganked, when people see you are playing rev they will target you first

  • Nath Forge Tempete.1645Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2018

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    (3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.

    False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity.

    (4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.

    False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

    I totally agree !) except that revenant is limited to the energy management ! so he can't at the same time exploit all his burst healing and keep alacrity + might (F2 skill on renegade) at 100% (not talking about the weapon skills either that he can't use instead of AA)

    Managing the energy is a real struggle for me in party ! I could do so much but i run out of it most of the time.

  • Legend swapping should change the weapon bar not the utility bar. I know that would cause a complete re-work of the class but being able to select either weapon skills (interesting thought) or utility skills would open up some new build options. I play my Revenant off and on for short amounts of time cause it gets boring. I want it to be more fun cause it is a cool class concept but the lack of options gets boring for me.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally, I think the class is "bad" because they directly copied the outdated GW1 system for it rather than reworking it into a more modern GW2 take on it.

    I hate the energy system.

    I hate the very limited skill selection.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    This is entirely situational. Renegade is taken for it's massive boon strip on Dhuum specifically because it can rip 10 boons from 100 energy in under 2.5 seconds.

    I am not too familiar on Dhuum, but unless I miss my guess you have picked out the only situation in the entire game where you would need to rip that many boons. How about the rest of the game? All of fractals? All of dungeons? The overworld? The rest of the raids? I haven't encountered a single situation where Corrupt Boon is insufficient, or even "not better" than banish enchantment. Let alone Phantasmal Disenchanter, which is fire and forget

    False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity.

    It's really not, for a couple of reasons. First, the alacrity from a Rev is a high maintenance and requires consuming all energy to maintain it. Chronomancer alacrity is low maintenance, requiring only 2 Avengers to keep it up permanently. Second, alacrity for the revenant falls off the moment they need to do basically anything else, because their uptime is barely consistent. A chronomancer builds up a backlog of alacrity that carries itself over from fight to fight. This backlogs allows for a lot of leeway when it comes a party member's individual movements. Third, the healing rev requires a target, because otherwise they can't build up Kallas Fervor to stack might.

    False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

    When I say "does more" I am referring to the individual buffs and boons that the druid has. A rev can't burst heal if they're stacking alacrity. The magnitude of heals is fairly unimportant, as there is only one threshold you need to be concerned with: Enough/Not Enough. Tempest and Druid are Enough, so healing more than them is useless. The area of effect here is a big problem, because the healing rev's narrow range means I have to spend most of my time chasing down teammates with the tablet, instead of just healing.

    This only looks this way on benchmarks because Assassin's Presence isn't taken into account. It's a 1-5k dps increase for the subgroup (depending on who is in it), but isn't actually factored into its dps. Engineer is the only class with (slightly) higher dps that also provides a unique buff. This means that a 32k benchmarked rev is actually bringing 33-37k to the group, some of it is just spread to other classes and factored into their dps. This is the reason everyone loves warrior and druid; they do the same thing.

    Assassin's Presence is about a 6% damage increase to power damage in a full berserker setup. Regardless, any group buff has to compete with the fact that 6 of the other 8 classes have higher sustained damage, beating out only the warrior and necromancer. In fractals, there's only 2 spaces for additional DPS specs after you have chrono/druid/BS, so Assassin's Presence is only useful to one other guy. You can give a few small buffs to the entire group, or you can just play one of the other 6 classes and have that DPS baked in to your toon.

    I totally disagree with this. In fact, it's the specialization that makes rev strong. If you already have a druid and you need a second healer imo it's the best of the 4 options you could have. If you need an alacrity bot to complement a quickness firebrand it's as good/better than chrono. If you need really solid condi dps, it's one of the best for this. If you need a handkiter at deimos, it's by far the best option for this. People say it's a jack of all trades, which is true in some ways, but it's also incredibly good at being that highly specialized role as well. You can do literally everything besides decent power dps and quickness upkeep as a revenant.

    Also btw, Revenant is the meta class on half the bosses in raids atm, so to say it's almost never ideal is wrong. It's only beaten out on bosses where Mirage or Power DPS is better, and even in those situations it's still respectable (with the exception of KC).

    Citation needed. That said, a Rev is never a meta class in fractals, because the small teams means you don't have the breathing room. A 10 man raid squad is capable of fielding a rev because the overall capabilities of the squad are huge, and there is something to gain by gathering as many unique buffs as possible. If you're telling me that, even with 10 places and assassin's presence, a rev isn't good enough for half of the raids, then that signifies a problem, especially when compared to other classes. What bosses exempt Mesmers, Elementalists, Rangers, Warriors, Guardians, and Engineers?

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    (2) A renegade can boon strip. This is good, but they are neither as consistent nor as powerful as the chronomancer and scourge respectively.

    This is entirely situational. Renegade is taken for it's massive boon strip on Dhuum specifically because it can rip 10 boons from 100 energy in under 2.5 seconds.

    (3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.

    False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity.

    (4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.

    False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

    (5) A renegade has average ramp up time and serviceable damage. However, it is beaten out by half of the classes.

    This only looks this way on benchmarks because Assassin's Presence isn't taken into account. It's a 1-5k dps increase for the subgroup (depending on who is in it), but isn't actually factored into its dps. Engineer is the only class with (slightly) higher dps that also provides a unique buff. This means that a 32k benchmarked rev is actually bringing 33-37k to the group, some of it is just spread to other classes and factored into their dps. This is the reason everyone loves warrior and druid; they do the same thing.

    But, if you need a highly specialized role or if you're on a team that believes such, then the Rev is almost never an ideal option.

    I totally disagree with this. In fact, it's the specialization that makes rev strong. If you already have a druid and you need a second healer imo it's the best of the 4 options you could have. If you need an alacrity bot to complement a quickness firebrand it's as good/better than chrono. If you need really solid condi dps, it's one of the best for this. If you need a handkiter at deimos, it's by far the best option for this. People say it's a jack of all trades, which is true in some ways, but it's also incredibly good at being that highly specialized role as well. You can do literally everything besides decent power dps and quickness upkeep as a revenant.

    Also btw, Revenant is the meta class on half the bosses in raids atm, so to say it's almost never ideal is wrong. It's only beaten out on bosses where Mirage or Power DPS is better, and even in those situations it's still respectable (with the exception of KC).

    Without getting too much in the weeds, condi renegede is out dpsed by ele, FB and soul beast. The alacrity role is niche at best, since even if you can do alacrity, you cannot do quickness. In addition the dps build provides no support. The ramp up of damage is huge. And above all, it does not even remotely work sPvP or WvW.

    So if you are looking at middle of the pack dps with no burst or support, that only works in raids, renegade is your thing.

    I cannot see how is this a functional elite or why anyone would play it, beside liking the animations or style. And this goes to rev in general.

  • @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I am not too familiar on Dhuum, but unless I miss my guess you have picked out the only situation in the entire game where you would need to rip that many boons. How about the rest of the game? All of fractals? All of dungeons? The overworld? The rest of the raids? I haven't encountered a single situation where Corrupt Boon is insufficient, or even "not better" than banish enchantment. Let alone Phantasmal Disenchanter, which is fire and forget.

    The only situations in the game where you legitimately need boon strip are Dhuum/VG (blue guardian) and fractals. Renegade is the best at boon strip for Dhuum and can do the job fine in fractals if needed. Also, if you're taking a necromancer for their boon strip it would be a dps loss, since they objectively have worse dps than condi renegade. And since you're very dps focused, this would be bad, right ;)
    But chono ofc does it fine in fractals and I'm not saying it's better than chrono at it for that.

    It's really not, for a couple of reasons. First, the alacrity from a Rev is a high maintenance and requires consuming all energy to maintain it. Chronomancer alacrity is low maintenance, requiring only 2 Avengers to keep it up permanently. Second, alacrity for the revenant falls off the moment they need to do basically anything else, because their uptime is barely consistent. A chronomancer builds up a backlog of alacrity that carries itself over from fight to fight. This backlogs allows for a lot of leeway when it comes a party member's individual movements. Third, the healing rev requires a target, because otherwise they can't build up Kallas Fervor to stack might.

    Having played alacrity renegade alongside dozens of chronomancers, I can honestly say the alacrity generation is superior. I've compared my alacrity rev with all of these chronos, several of whom are quite expert at their class, and Support Renegade alacrity generation is usually 20% higher than the chronos. It definitely is higher maintenance, but with the changes to Charged Mists, if you don't need/want Devastation, it gives an extra 25 energy per 10s for you to do more damage/cc/heal/provide extra alacrity with.

    I know you mention the "backlog of alacrity" but Renegade does this as well, especially with Charged Mists. Not only that, but I don't think you really understand exactly how much the chrono needs a target to maintain alacrity and how much that actually impacts their alacrity generation in practice. On a boss like Gorseval the 33% phases make it so chrono maintains barely any alacrity during the spirit phase, even with the backlog.

    And as mentioned, I've analyzed my logs for these. I'm not just talking hypotheticals, I'm saying that in practice Renegade alacrity generation *f that is what the renegade is focused on doing is equivalent or better than a chrono. 9 times out of 10 it was 20% better. This was before Charged Mists as well, which makes it even easier for the renegade to maintain that alacrity.

    As for Kalla's Fervor, it's irrelevant to the alacrity conversation as it doesn't impact it. The mentioning of Chronomancer requiring a target was for alacrity generation, not might, so renegade requiring a target for might generation is unimportant...Also should be mentioned that it takes literally 2 seconds to generate 5 stacks of Fervor, probably even less time. Might generation tho isn't something that needs to necessarily be covered by rev tho...and almost anything that generates might also requires a target....so...yeah...not really sure where you're going with that...

    When I say "does more" I am referring to the individual buffs and boons that the druid has. A rev can't burst heal if they're stacking alacrity. The magnitude of heals is fairly unimportant, as there is only one threshold you need to be concerned with: Enough/Not Enough. Tempest and Druid are Enough, so healing more than them is useless. The area of effect here is a big problem, because the healing rev's narrow range means I have to spend most of my time chasing down teammates with the tablet, instead of just healing.

    Sure druid does more and obviously that makes it meta in every situation in the game. I'm not saying it's better than a single Druid, because that would be objectively false.

    Only 1 healer is meta in raids now, so that leaves the group to drop a healer for a dps OR grab a dps off healer (like condi druid or dps renegade support) OR grab a 2nd healer. The 2nd healer now can be pretty much anything, provided it does the job. Druid really isn't needed in twos and this leaves rooms for groups to take a healing tempest/revenant/firebrand, all of which have different niches. Imo, Revenant is generally the best option out of all the possibilities for that 2nd healing spot because it really does bring a lot to the table. Tempest ofc is great as well, but the two are like night and day in terms of how they heal and what they're good at.

    Also, Healing revenant doesn't have to be used for alacrity. In fact, it should really only be used as its subgroups primary alacrity producer if you have a quickness firebrand instead of a chrono. Otherwise it's just there for the heals and supplemental buffs. Also it should be noted I've hit over 10k Natural Harmony heals (20 energy), so its alacrity rotation is half just spamming 10k heals constantly. Pretty bursty even with low energy.

    Assassin's Presence is about a 6% damage increase to power damage in a full berserker setup. Regardless, any group buff has to compete with the fact that 6 of the other 8 classes have higher sustained damage, beating out only the warrior and necromancer. In fractals, there's only 2 spaces for additional DPS specs after you have chrono/druid/BS, so Assassin's Presence is only useful to one other guy. You can give a few small buffs to the entire group, or you can just play one of the other 6 classes and have that DPS baked in to your toon.

    I mean, sure, you can play a higher dps for fractals, but the differences are slim overall. 1-4k dps isn't that big of a deal unless you're speedrunning. The issue with fractals is that power is still largely better than condi in most of the content due to burst being better than sustain. However, Ive never been rejected from fractals (including CM) as a revenant and my CM runs have never felt bad or lacking in damage.

    Citation needed. That said, a Rev is never a meta class in fractals, because the small teams means you don't have the breathing room. A 10 man raid squad is capable of fielding a rev because the overall capabilities of the squad are huge, and there is something to gain by gathering as many unique buffs as possible. If you're telling me that, even with 10 places and assassin's presence, a rev isn't good enough for half of the raids, then that signifies a problem, especially when compared to other classes. What bosses exempt Mesmers, Elementalists, Rangers, Warriors, Guardians, and Engineers?

    Citation: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/
    Click on each individual boss. They give optimal compositions for all of them.

    Sure, Revenant is only "meta" in half of raid bosses HOWEVER *Elementalist/Guardian are only meta on half and Engineer is only meta on about 80% (due to pinpoint distribution). So yes, there are bosses that exempt ele/guardian/engi as well. And ofc, this is purely from a speedrunning meta perspective. In reality, Condi Renegade does just fine on every boss except for KC. For raid bosses it's not an issue of "revenant is bad so it's not meta on all bosses." It's an issue of "half of raid bosses prefer power and half of them prefer condi" (which imo isn't a big deal, as for everything besides KC power or condi still do fine, just not optimal). The only classes that are meta on every single boss are chrono/berserker/druid, but that's understandable.

    Fractals are fractals. ^as mentioned above I've never had an issue with them as a revenant.

    I'm not trying to say that Revenant is better than every single class in every situation, but to argue that it's not good or not viable (or even optimal) is flawed and false.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2018

    Without getting too much in the weeds, condi renegede is out dpsed by ele, FB and soul beast. The alacrity role is niche at best, since even if you can do alacrity, you cannot do quickness. In addition the dps build provides no support. The ramp up of damage is huge. And above all, it does not even remotely work sPvP or WvW.

    So if you are looking at middle of the pack dps with no burst or support, that only works in raids, renegade is your thing.

    I cannot see how is this a functional elite or why anyone would play it, beside liking the animations or style. And this goes to rev in general.

    It might be "outdpsed" by FB and Soulbeast, but there's a reason FB isn't meta on any raid boss and Soulbeast is only meta on like 2 of them. Condi Renegade is consistent and brings Assassin's Presence and this makes it better in practice than either of those two options. FB is also not great in practice due to Ashes of the Just getting eaten by random mobs. Ele ofc is always better on options that prefer power, but that's the way it's always been so meh. Ele isn't a better condi spec tho.

    The alacrity role is niche, sure, but alongside a Quickness Firebrand it works fine, and I have two friends who play that, so combos well ;)

    It's a condi spec so I'm not sure why you're looking for burst on it...and its support is fine

    Sure renegade sucks in sPvP and WvW, but Hammer Rev is meta in WvW and Herald does fine in sPvP if you know what you're doing, so you can still play revenant in those game modes just have to swap off of Renegade. And not all of revenant is renegade and the OP is largely talking about revenant as a whole. Ofc Renegade needs help in both pvp modes, but that's a different conversation...

    And renegade is quite functional in all of PvE tho so I wouldn't call it dysfunctional. Perhaps it's not your style, which is fine, not all elite specs are intended for everyone.

  • Dabrixmgp.4758Dabrixmgp.4758 Member ✭✭
    edited January 8, 2018

    this class is total garbage. I cant even solo the Hero points in order to even pick an Elite specialization. Tried as Condi and then Power. Deleting this waste of space now. I wanted to WvW with him but if Im not allowed to solo the Hero Points in order to become Herald then I surely cant even kill a real player. Might go try the HoT ones first since I read Revs were OP in HoT. Hopefully they will be easier to solo.

  • @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    So this class didnt exist when i quit so giving it a shot after returning. I know leveling doesnt really count but Im having lots of fun. Also when I switch to my Guardian to do WvW theres always quite a few Revs running around. Yet when I see the first page of this forum its all doom and gloom and this is the worst class in the history of MMOs. Can someone please tell me when I will stop having fun and start being the red-headed step child of the gaming world so I can prepare myself?

    Revs get a lot of hate now because on release they were Gods, but got that super nerf hammer

  • My 2 cents:
    *legend skills are far stronger than weapon skills,to the point where you only need auto attack
    *there is no legend or traitline which actively promotes the use of weapons over legend skills - for example a legend which only has a good stun break and heal,but mediocre to weak utilities - think kala,but all the effects from that legend are centered around yourself.
    *there are few weapon skills which can be considered good and are used the same way other classes use utilities (sword 3, staff 5, axe 4 are the top 3)
    *Retribution and Herald are the only viable tank/bruiser spec for Revenant, seeing how Retribution has been guted to be bad without Herald
    *weapons developed for elite spec are mediocre(shield)/terrible(shortbow) pve only stuff, shield 5 is good when you mess something up and shield 4 is a situational support spell you can cast when you aren't using Ventari legend or Herald ult and Shortbow is the weapon the Revenant community never wanted,we would have been better off with an elite spec that gives us 2 legends and no weapons.

  • @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    Can someone please tell me when I will stop having fun and start being the red-headed step child of the gaming world so I can prepare myself?

    When you get to the elites, which completely change the nature of the profession and not in a good way.
    The freedom you enjoy with the non-elites, which have few and very short cooldowns except for the self-heals, disappears. You're reduced to pre-determined optimal rotations based on cooldowns. At that point you may as well just play any other profession.
    Rev's elites are why I play ESO now instead, even with it's borderline demonic monetization.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    (2) A renegade can boon strip. This is good, but they are neither as consistent nor as powerful as the chronomancer and scourge respectively.

    This is entirely situational. Renegade is taken for it's massive boon strip on Dhuum specifically because it can rip 10 boons from 100 energy in under 2.5 seconds.

    (3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.

    False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity.

    (4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.

    False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

    (5) A renegade has average ramp up time and serviceable damage. However, it is beaten out by half of the classes.

    This only looks this way on benchmarks because Assassin's Presence isn't taken into account. It's a 1-5k dps increase for the subgroup (depending on who is in it), but isn't actually factored into its dps. Engineer is the only class with (slightly) higher dps that also provides a unique buff. This means that a 32k benchmarked rev is actually bringing 33-37k to the group, some of it is just spread to other classes and factored into their dps. This is the reason everyone loves warrior and druid; they do the same thing.

    But, if you need a highly specialized role or if you're on a team that believes such, then the Rev is almost never an ideal option.

    I totally disagree with this. In fact, it's the specialization that makes rev strong. If you already have a druid and you need a second healer imo it's the best of the 4 options you could have. If you need an alacrity bot to complement a quickness firebrand it's as good/better than chrono. If you need really solid condi dps, it's one of the best for this. If you need a handkiter at deimos, it's by far the best option for this. People say it's a jack of all trades, which is true in some ways, but it's also incredibly good at being that highly specialized role as well. You can do literally everything besides decent power dps and quickness upkeep as a revenant.

    Also btw, Revenant is the meta class on half the bosses in raids atm, so to say it's almost never ideal is wrong. It's only beaten out on bosses where Mirage or Power DPS is better, and even in those situations it's still respectable (with the exception of KC).

    Without getting too much in the weeds, condi renegede is out dpsed by ele, FB and soul beast.

    I don't think a firebrand or soul beast is beating a Renegade in total dps contribution unless the Renegade is using the wrong build or is just abysmal at aiming their skills... You can't underestimate how strong Assassin's Presence is in a game that's pretty much based around passive damage modifier stacking. Even in a full condi sub, a little bit of ferocity scales really well with full Viper's Gear (It's part of the reason why Runes of Renegade beat Berserker for most builds.) But let's also be honest, the days of 100% condi dps groups are pretty much over save for a few bosses--and all of them except Desmina and 1/2 of Matthias have Large Hitboxes, which Renegade annihilates.

    Well, I guess in fractals SB/FB beats Renegade pretty hard due to their shorter ramp up times, but if you're really into min/max'ing fractals you're not bringing any of the condi classes... (Weaver/DH/Holo only.)

  • jaif.3518jaif.3518 Member ✭✭

    @elitegamerz.4965 said:

    The meta build for Rev in WvW is zerk hammer. Coalescence of Ruin hits like 15 enemies on a really short CD and it hits like a freight train. You can 1 or 2 shot people with it at max range.

    I want to emphasize this. The backline hammer build is a perfect glass cannon. Herald gives you tools to help yourself and others on the backline, and the hammer hits hard.

  • Jack Skywalker.5674Jack Skywalker.5674 Member ✭✭
    edited January 14, 2018

    @jaif.3518 said:

    @elitegamerz.4965 said:

    The meta build for Rev in WvW is zerk hammer. Coalescence of Ruin hits like 15 enemies on a really short CD and it hits like a freight train. You can 1 or 2 shot people with it at max range.

    I want to emphasize this. The backline hammer build is a perfect glass cannon. Herald gives you tools to help yourself and others on the backline, and the hammer hits hard.

    Do you have any feedback regarding Renegade Hammer builds? Or any WvW build that uses Renegade?

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

    @jaif.3518 said:

    @elitegamerz.4965 said:

    The meta build for Rev in WvW is zerk hammer. Coalescence of Ruin hits like 15 enemies on a really short CD and it hits like a freight train. You can 1 or 2 shot people with it at max range.

    I want to emphasize this. The backline hammer build is a perfect glass cannon. Herald gives you tools to help yourself and others on the backline, and the hammer hits hard.

    Do you have any feedback regarding Renegade Hammer builds? Or any WvW build that uses Renegade?

    I mean teeeeeechnically a Power Renegade's Hammer would hit a little harder than a Power Herald's (16.66% critical damage bonus vs the ~10% dmg bonus of Elder's Focus) and your Alacrity generation from F3 is actually pretty super useful in WvW team fighting... But you lose out on all of the aoe boon support and personal survivability that Herald gives you, which is just not worth it, imo... Especially losing Facet of Light, which is still pretty mandatory to have for all forms of Revenant PvP.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:
    Go PvP or WvW roaming and try to duel some Mirage. Then go PvE raids and try to be accepted in pug raids with any build outside condi viper Renegade.

    Yeah because you should TOTALLY base how fun/viable a class is in general based on ONE condi class (that will be heavily nerfed. That rage at the fact they were BUFFED during the condi "nerf" patch will make sure of that) and totally ignore ALL the other classes that you will see in WvW both roaming and groups. Every. Single person is a Condi Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage. Oh. Wait. They aren't. Pug raids also don't really count as if a class is viable or not, or does it define the class being fun or not. Raids arent the ONLY thing in PvE.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:
    Go PvP or WvW roaming and try to duel some Mirage. Then go PvE raids and try to be accepted in pug raids with any build outside condi viper Renegade.

    Yeah because you should TOTALLY base how fun/viable a class is in general based on ONE condi class (that will be heavily nerfed. That rage at the fact they were BUFFED during the condi "nerf" patch will make sure of that) and totally ignore ALL the other classes that you will see in WvW both roaming and groups.

    Currently Herald is bad at any PvP role; core Revenant and Renegade just doesn't exist in that game mode. Of course you can reach legend tier with a Herald if you are good enough, mostly because the population is so low that really ranks means next to nothing. But if the old tournaments & ESL league were in place no team would use a Revenant class in its current state.

    You can't hold a control points vs a bruiser as a Revenant. You can't kill a tank as a Revenant. You can't outpace a Thief, Mesmer, Warrior or Ranger moving along the map as a Revenant. You can't spike as hard as a Mirage, a Holosmith of a Scourge as a Revenant and you can't build a support spec able to compete with Firebrand/Druid/Mirage as a Revenant. That's not "a problem with a single class": fills the whole spectrum. By the way I really don't care abut PvE, aside from gathering and selling (Rev at least is good at gathering: Impossible Odds on demand).

  • @Buran.3796 said:

    Currently Herald is bad at any PvP role; core Revenant and Renegade just doesn't exist in that game mode. Of course you can reach legend tier with a Herald if you are good enough, mostly because the population is so low that really ranks means next to nothing. But if the old tournaments & ESL league were in place no team would use a Revenant class in its current state.

    You can't hold a control points vs a bruiser as a Revenant. You can't kill a tank as a Revenant. You can't outpace a Thief, Mesmer, Warrior or Ranger moving along the map as a Revenant. You can't spike as hard as a Mirage, a Holosmith of a Scourge as a Revenant and you can't build a support spec able to compete with Firebrand/Druid/Mirage as a Revenant. That's not "a problem with a single class": fills the whole spectrum. By the way I really don't care abut PvE, aside from gathering and selling (Rev at least is good at gathering: Impossible Odds on demand).

    I think you mean sPvP. Hammer Revenant is one of the best damage dealing boon bot builds there....it's so good people are praying for nerfs on the hammer (source: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/24588/what-do-you-want-out-of-the-upcoming-class-balance-patch#latest ).
    For WvW Hammer Herald has 2 alternative builds - Retribution instead of Deva for passive dwarf and Eye for an Eye (op tower dismount on any cc),optional dwarf stance instead of shiro for more dwarf rites and Salvation instead of Deva for them heals + protection and allacrity spam.

  • Ario.8964Ario.8964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The reason rev isn't used anymore in pvp: not enough condi removal. Damage is still good but it doesn't matter when every condi build will be able to 1 shot you.

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