Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged] - Page 6 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

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  • Arioch.4810Arioch.4810 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

    I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

    Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

    EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

    I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

    So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

    Buff mirages dmg and w/e u want to be buffed
    Remove dodging while stunned
    Remove attacking while dodging

    This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:
    Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

    Interesting idea.

    My take: Mirage spec has 3 mirage cloaks baseline and can't benefit from vigor/sigils of energy (only "natural" dodge recharge) Cloak can't be activated while stunned: EM allows this and removes some condis. Sigil loses stealth on active, replaced with something. Torch 4 no longer stealths but detargets similat to axe. Portal can (and should) be spilt for PvP mode with longer cooldown and/or shorter range.

    Still unique gameplay, and still viable.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arioch.4810 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

    I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

    Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

    EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

    I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

    So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

    Buff mirages dmg and w/e u want to be buffed
    Remove dodging while stunned
    Remove attacking while dodging

    This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:
    Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

    Interesting idea.

    My take: Mirage spec has 3 mirage cloaks baseline and can't benefit from vigor/sigils of energy (only "natural" dodge recharge) Cloak can't be activated while stunned: EM allows this and removes some condis. Sigil loses stealth on active, replaced with something. Torch 4 no longer stealths but detargets similat to axe. Portal can (and should) be spilt for PvP mode with longer cooldown and/or shorter range.

    Still unique gameplay, and still viable.

    So what about skills that grant mirage cloak. That slot or the deception skills

  • Arioch.4810Arioch.4810 Member ✭✭✭

    Interesting idea.

    My take: Mirage spec has 3 mirage cloaks baseline and can't benefit from vigor/sigils of energy (only "natural" dodge recharge) Cloak can't be activated while stunned: EM allows this and removes some condis. Sigil loses stealth on active, replaced with something. Torch 4 no longer stealths but detargets similat to axe. Portal can (and should) be spilt for PvP mode with longer cooldown and/or shorter range.

    Still unique gameplay, and still viable.

    So what about skills that grant mirage cloak. That slot or the deception skills

    If devs decide to take spec in direction i roughly outlined, skills that grant mirage cloak can be looked at and rebalanced where necessary. ( People with a lot of hours on Mesmer should provide feedback there - my idea of course coincides with my wishes, but it's necessary to see what majority of players feels like, and also - to see is there some problem with outcome/direction of changes)
    Giving Mirage 3 "dodges" baseline provides at least one ambush and some evasion for counterburst. But if you go there, there has to be opportunity for opponents to drain the dodges in prolonged fight - hence my idea to limit vigor/sigil replenishment. New players would have a lot of value in EM+3 dodges, shielding them from opening bursts, but you shave off stealth to make sure good players can still catch and punish mesmer for tanking damage but not downing opponent - less chance for resets.
    This is only theorycrafting: If it sounds like a good base for tweaks, it's necessary to test that approach is not replacing one problem with another, and that profesion is still viable in all levels of play.

  • breno.5423breno.5423 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @breno.5423 said:
    Its ok to have lot of CC, but you can't have lots of CC, and mobility, and damage, and sustain, all at the same time.

    And yes, mesmer isnt the only one who deserve nerfs.

    People keep talking about this mirage sustain. And I'm just not seeing. Mirage has ONE stunbreak in the meta build, jaunt is a joke as it won't even teleport you out of most cleave, it could not teleport at all and it would still be taken for the condi clear.

    Mirage cannot sustain through damage, its heal is very poor, and jaunt has already been nerfed, then nerfed again.

    They could remove the daze from sword ambush skill and it would still be taken as well.

    Mesmer sustain:

    Mechanics = >blur<, >distortion<, mirror, target break (mirage), clones and ilusions through the way serving as obstacles, >stealths<, >portal<, >teleports< (staff 2, sword 3, jaunt - mirage, illusionary ambush - mirage, blink)
    Crowd Controls = >Dazes<, stuns (sword ambush = mirage, mantra of distracting = zerker, shield skill 5 = chrono), etc (gravity wall, GS skill 5...)
    Crowd Control Conditions = >Blinds<, weakness, cripple, imobilize, chill (staff), slow (chrono), etc
    Boons = Protection, aegis (staff/F4), vigor,
    Escape = portal, blink, stealths

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @breno.5423 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @breno.5423 said:
    Its ok to have lot of CC, but you can't have lots of CC, and mobility, and damage, and sustain, all at the same time.

    And yes, mesmer isnt the only one who deserve nerfs.

    People keep talking about this mirage sustain. And I'm just not seeing. Mirage has ONE stunbreak in the meta build, jaunt is a joke as it won't even teleport you out of most cleave, it could not teleport at all and it would still be taken for the condi clear.

    Mirage cannot sustain through damage, its heal is very poor, and jaunt has already been nerfed, then nerfed again.

    They could remove the daze from sword ambush skill and it would still be taken as well.

    Mesmer sustain:

    Mechanics = >blur<, >distortion<, mirror, target break (mirage), clones and ilusions through the way serving as obstacles, >stealths<, >portal<, >teleports< (staff 2, sword 3, jaunt - mirage, illusionary ambush - mirage, blink)
    Crowd Controls = >Dazes<, stuns (sword ambush = mirage, mantra of distracting = zerker, shield skill 5 = chrono), etc (gravity wall, GS skill 5...)
    Crowd Control Conditions = >Blinds<, weakness, cripple, imobilize, chill (staff), slow (chrono), etc
    Boons = Protection, aegis (staff/F4), vigor,
    Escape = portal, blink, stealths

    Please show me a build that has all of that.

  • breno.5423breno.5423 Member ✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @breno.5423 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @breno.5423 said:
    Its ok to have lot of CC, but you can't have lots of CC, and mobility, and damage, and sustain, all at the same time.

    And yes, mesmer isnt the only one who deserve nerfs.

    People keep talking about this mirage sustain. And I'm just not seeing. Mirage has ONE stunbreak in the meta build, jaunt is a joke as it won't even teleport you out of most cleave, it could not teleport at all and it would still be taken for the condi clear.

    Mirage cannot sustain through damage, its heal is very poor, and jaunt has already been nerfed, then nerfed again.

    They could remove the daze from sword ambush skill and it would still be taken as well.

    Mesmer sustain:

    Mechanics = >blur<, >distortion<, mirror, target break (mirage), clones and ilusions through the way serving as obstacles, >stealths<, >portal<, >teleports< (staff 2, sword 3, jaunt - mirage, illusionary ambush - mirage, blink)
    Crowd Controls = >Dazes<, stuns (sword ambush = mirage, mantra of distracting = zerker, shield skill 5 = chrono), etc (gravity wall, GS skill 5...)
    Crowd Control Conditions = >Blinds<, weakness, cripple, imobilize, chill (staff), slow (chrono), etc
    Boons = Protection, aegis (staff/F4), vigor,
    Escape = portal, blink, stealths

    Please show me a build that has all of that.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Ineptitude

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @viquing.8254 said:

    Who on Earth still uses Tab targeting?

    It target almost always the mesmer under his clones.

    Still not an excuse for lazy play, sorry for any1 that does it.

    Edit: I'm glad some of the fresh blood is taking up the torch from the tired of arguing vets, it's refreshing.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • Skye.9862Skye.9862 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    I dont play mirage but I PvP ranked and unranked most of the time that I'm playing GW2 and I play on a variety of classes and I really don't think its that hard to focus and kill a mesmer, some are better than others 110% it depends on skill and mirage certainly isnt as easy to play as scourge used to be. Not to mention they are relatively squishy and you see a mirage coming you really just have to know when to evade like most other classes coming towards you. It used to be hard to kill mesmers when I was new to the game but since I've learned how to play they are really not that difficult. I think they are fine the way they are. Sure they can be annoying and sneak up on you but so can thief and they dont even have half the stealth a thief does. You just have to be aware of your surroundings in the game. I I dont think mirage needs another nerf, and if it gets one... BUFF CHRONOMANCER!!! That used to be such a fun spec.

  • I think the problem is because clones are able to do too much damage with condition. Clones get no benefit from the mesmer power, but they do from the mesmer condition damage and expertise, but their purpose should be to act like a decoy and distract the enemy and not like a damage source. For exemple, in a power build using a Sword three clones will do less than 50 damge per second while in a condi build using a Staff three clones are able to keep 1k~ damage per second.

    Joko lies, Balthazar don't.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @JasonLucas.4981 said:
    I think the problem is because clones are able to do too much damage with condition. Clones get no benefit from the mesmer power, but they do from the mesmer condition damage and expertise, but their purpose should be to act like a decoy and distract the enemy and not like a damage source. For exemple, in a power build using a Sword three clones will do less than 50 damge per second while in a condi build using a Staff three clones are able to keep 1k~ damage per second.

    That's because condi output from the mesmer alone is less than all other condi builds in the game even thief

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @JasonLucas.4981 said:
    I think the problem is because clones are able to do too much damage with condition. Clones get no benefit from the mesmer power, but they do from the mesmer condition damage and expertise, but their purpose should be to act like a decoy and distract the enemy and not like a damage source. For exemple, in a power build using a Sword three clones will do less than 50 damge per second while in a condi build using a Staff three clones are able to keep 1k~ damage per second.

    That's because condi output from the mesmer alone is less than all other condi builds in the game even thief

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Condi_DPS_Chaos
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Condi_DPS_Illusions
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Ineptitude

    And all of those rely on illusions for increasing condi damage

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @breno.5423 said:
    Mesmer sustain:

    Mechanics = >blur<, >distortion<, mirror, target break (mirage), clones and ilusions through the way serving as obstacles, >stealths<, >portal<, >teleports< (staff 2, sword 3, jaunt - mirage, illusionary ambush - mirage, blink)
    Crowd Controls = >Dazes<, stuns (sword ambush = mirage, mantra of distracting = zerker, shield skill 5 = chrono), etc (gravity wall, GS skill 5...)
    Crowd Control Conditions = >Blinds<, weakness, cripple, imobilize, chill (staff), slow (chrono), etc
    Boons = Protection, aegis (staff/F4), vigor,
    Escape = portal, blink, stealths

    Half aren't efficient.

    In your linked build, we have :
    1 target break+evade.
    3 sec stealth + 2 sec stealth.
    blink, jaunt.
    portal.
    2 breakstunt.
    2 staff.
    Blind.
    50 CD distorsion.

    Boons and other CC conditions have minimal impact.
    PS: your build lack condi clear. In practise, top 50 mes drop SoM to MoR. And lol at desesperate decoy.

    Other class meta builds have better stab uptime, protection, resistance, heal/sec regen, weapon sustain which are more usefull to fight on point.

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said :
    ake Sword1 Ambush - Mobility + Defense + Engage + Disruption + Damage + Clone spawn ....all on the same skill?

    Welcome to the 3 in 1 power creep hype, every class have the same in different ways.
    It's more (Mobility OR Engage) + Disruption + Damage + Clone spawn. What did you mean by defense ? it's not like some other gap closer who do 3-5k damage when giving evade.
    Btw I agree with the rest of your post.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @viquing.8254 said:
    (...)
    In your linked build, we have :
    1 target break+evade.
    3 sec stealth + 2 sec stealth.
    blink, jaunt.
    portal.
    (2 breakstunt.)
    2 staff.
    Blind.
    50 CD distorsion.
    (...)

    All these skills can be used to avoid burst after getting stunned. :smile: Not to mention the two additional normal evades. Signet + blink + 3 jaunts + (portal) + staff 2 + (shatters for blind) + distortion + 2 evades. Even if we put brackets around portal because of the delay and the blinds on shatters, that's 9 (!) ways to avoid burst after a stun! Okay, usually no stability, but that's still incredibly high.

    No other class comes close to this. It is not necessarily the damage, not the clone spam that annoys people. It is the fact that they are so hard to punish for mistakes. This is the number I'd like to see reduced, if they go for all damage.

    I agree about stuff like sword ambush being just powercreep. Sad but... same goes for FC or daggerstorm. :lol:

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    All these skills can be used to avoid burst after getting stunned. :smile:

    Sure but other class have other way to avoid getting stunned or go out of burst.
    There is a reason that lockdown mesmer was never in meta and it's not mainly due to mirage existence.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    All these skills can be used to avoid burst after getting stunned. :smile:

    Sure but other class have other way to avoid getting stunned or go out of burst.
    There is a reason that lockdown mesmer was never in meta and it's not mainly due to mirage existence.

    Yeah, that's true. BUT: stability can be played around. You can corrupt it, you can wait after it expired (except boonbeast lol). Yes, evades on mirage are often used offensively, sometimes one or two jaunts... but the others? I just think it is too much.

    I'd like to see some stability spam reduced as well (firebrand, boonbeast and stuff). Make skills meaningful again!

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @breno.5423 said:

    Mesmer sustain:

    Mechanics = >blur<, >distortion<, mirror, target break (mirage), clones and ilusions through the way serving as obstacles, >stealths<, >portal<, >teleports< (staff 2, sword 3, jaunt - mirage, illusionary ambush - mirage, blink)
    Crowd Controls = >Dazes<, stuns (sword ambush = mirage, mantra of distracting = zerker, shield skill 5 = chrono), etc (gravity wall, GS skill 5...)
    Crowd Control Conditions = >Blinds<, weakness, cripple, imobilize, chill (staff), slow (chrono), etc
    Boons = Protection, aegis (staff/F4), vigor,
    Escape = portal, blink, stealths

    Please show me a build that has all of that.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Ineptitude

    You dont even look what you link, dont you?
    From CC its have : torch 5 - 1/2s daze IF (24s cd) ,daze from f3 1s (32) ,staff5 RANDOM 1s on 35s cd. CC spam sir ?
    'Crowd control conditions ' - epic category that I never heard of(at least you didnt listed any of them : fear,taunt) ,more like movement impairing conditions from chaos armor(30s cd) and 35s cd chaos storm (no immobilize at all btw) . Indeed blind on shatter around mesmer :)
    Boons -Close to none of that build.Random from the same 30/35s cd staff ... That kitten OP vigor shatters 1.5s or that exclusive nerf for mesmer only on critical hit ? With 4% crit chance very consistent. There is other classes with real permanent vigor ,why no complaints?
    Escape... portal that mostly would be used for rotation SOMETIMES used to save your life if you alrdy have portal somewhere ,still if its on enemy node you can TP right into enemy and still die(72s cd for self rescue).
    Stealth :Torch stealth more often than not used for stealth burst and signet is emergency breakstun. Passive 50% interrupt actions like heal or stomp and once u get down to 50% u can self reveal easly with random shatter or ambush or auto bounce.
    Sustain - What is sustain for you ? Stealth spamming just to stay alive is a sustain ? Then shadow arts thieves ,d/p ,DE thieves are gods of sustian . Teleport is a sustain? Sword thief is another god in that category , if evade is a sustain too then s/d thief is taking the crown . Memes aside best sustain have ranger, guardian,warrior(sword eles?)
    Blur is sword 2 skill that lasts 1s (not part of that build even).
    Distortion depends on amount of clones 1-4s.
    Mirror? is that from heal once per 25s that you need to pick up?
    Illusionary ambush that never been part of any meta/build (unless you fight self made builds or running it instead of a portal ,then portal complaints should be gone). Clones that die from 1-2 hits and serve as shatter material suddenly became part of sustain... Portal is part of sustain...

    You trying to make it look like mesmer equipped all utilities and all traits... and all weapons ...

  • shinta.8906shinta.8906 Member ✭✭✭

    when my hand hurts from pve deadeye rota i go pvp and play condi mirage. it's just to relax my crazy stressed out muscle tissues.

    im very glad anet has a class that makes me feel relaxed.

    thank you

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From what I get people complain about:

    • Dodge while stunned - this could be removed or attached to EM, if you think you're losing due to this you're lying to yourselves.
    • Evade spam - other lie, there are professions with more evade uptime than mirage by a long shot plus vigor was nerfed into oblivion.
    • Evade and attack at once - again how many skills/traits on game do this?
    • Mobility - take out portal and other professions have as much mobility.
    • Condi burst and sustain dmg - the only fair complain, nerf one of the two for all I care.
  • breno.5423breno.5423 Member ✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Take Sword1 Ambush - Mobility + Defense + Engage + Disruption + Damage + Clone spawn ....all on the same skill? And it's considered part of the auto attack on Mirage they get during mirage cloak? There are weapons in the game on other professions with entire skillbars that bring less to the table.

    Haha, true.

  • Troll.7854Troll.7854 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    There is absolutely no way to fight against it without taking an obscene amount of condition removal. You have confusion on you? Doesn't matter if you don't attack to avoid damage, they will kill you anyway. Got Torment on you? Doesn't matter if you don't move to avoid damage, it will kill you anyway. What's the point in even HAVING conditions if there is no way to play around them except for removal?

    And you wanna know the worst thing about it?
    you can't even run away. That's the worst thing.

    @Zawn.9647 said:
    I agree... The problem is that even if you dont walk and dont cast skills to avoid Confusion/Torment damage (which is ridiculous btw... who thought it would be nice to do nothing just to try countering a mesmer?) - they still do tons of Burning damage and have a pretty decent power damage as well :)

    let's nor forget god mode disengage/defense/utility on top of that :D

    Are you kidding? If u don't use skills vs confusion, you're negating 80% of mirage dmg, and then save your condi clear OR resistance for other conditions, keep in mind that torment lasts at most 8 seconds with full expertise and burn is easily cleared as long as you understand game mechanics, is it that hard of a concept for you to understand?

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2018

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @JasonLucas.4981 said:
    I think the problem is because clones are able to do too much damage with condition. Clones get no benefit from the mesmer power, but they do from the mesmer condition damage and expertise, but their purpose should be to act like a decoy and distract the enemy and not like a damage source. For exemple, in a power build using a Sword three clones will do less than 50 damge per second while in a condi build using a Staff three clones are able to keep 1k~ damage per second.

    That's because condi output from the mesmer alone is less than all other condi builds in the game even thief

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Condi_DPS_Chaos
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Condi_DPS_Illusions
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Ineptitude

    Going to quote a previous post of mine earlier in the thread but it's true. Mathematically Mirage and Scourge have the lowest condition damage output in the game.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have higher condition bursts. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But while those builds have other weaknesses, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 3+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output in is zero.

    Condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely overtuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely. And even then there is no shortage of Power Mirage and absolutely no shortage Power Reaper who have pulled ahead of Scourge.

    Condition cleanses and conversions are overtuned at this point. Every class can shrug off 3-7 conditions several times a fight or is overloaded with resistance. Mirage and Scourge are only able to keep up because their bloated spread of conditions allow their more important damage applicators to dodge cleanses despite them being the lowest condition damage classes in the game, and because they have reliable answers to resistance. Both condition cleanses need to be dialed way back, and the variety of conditions any one class can apply should be reigned back to 2-3 conditions for damage with higher values and duration to compensate.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    ... that's what vitality is for is. Quite literally, it's in the name - better vitality, good resistance to disease. It's a hp buffer against condis.

    Vitality is only good as an initial buffer, since you won't be able to heal up enough. I prefer being able to mitigate damage any day, like you do with toughness.

    Having 40,000 HP vs 20,000, but in the latter case being able to mitigate half the incoming damage, and in the first you don't mitigate anything, while being able to heal for the same 5000 HP in both scenarios.

    Now if vitality had some impact on how much you could heal for...

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    @breno.5423 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @breno.5423 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @breno.5423 said:
    Its ok to have lot of CC, but you can't have lots of CC, and mobility, and damage, and sustain, all at the same time.

    And yes, mesmer isnt the only one who deserve nerfs.

    People keep talking about this mirage sustain. And I'm just not seeing. Mirage has ONE stunbreak in the meta build, jaunt is a joke as it won't even teleport you out of most cleave, it could not teleport at all and it would still be taken for the condi clear.

    Mirage cannot sustain through damage, its heal is very poor, and jaunt has already been nerfed, then nerfed again.

    They could remove the daze from sword ambush skill and it would still be taken as well.

    Mesmer sustain:

    Mechanics = >blur<, >distortion<, mirror, target break (mirage), clones and ilusions through the way serving as obstacles, >stealths<, >portal<, >teleports< (staff 2, sword 3, jaunt - mirage, illusionary ambush - mirage, blink)
    Crowd Controls = >Dazes<, stuns (sword ambush = mirage, mantra of distracting = zerker, shield skill 5 = chrono), etc (gravity wall, GS skill 5...)
    Crowd Control Conditions = >Blinds<, weakness, cripple, imobilize, chill (staff), slow (chrono), etc
    Boons = Protection, aegis (staff/F4), vigor,
    Escape = portal, blink, stealths

    Please show me a build that has all of that.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Ineptitude

    Are you sniffing glue?
    That build has barely any CC

  • @Ario.8964 said:
    A good deal of it depends on your matchup but these are some of the general rules I use for fighting condi mirage and it's helped me be pretty successful:
    1) When they stealth, count to 3 and then dodge, they are most likely trying a massive condi burst (95% of players playing this build are mechanically meh and won't think to shift around their playstyle so you will see this opener almost every fight) and dodging it will let you avoid most of their damage while putting the player in a relly bad position
    2) The best time to cc them is when they use the axe whirl skill
    3) If you play something like holo, do static discharge bursts (or any other large on demand burst) during all their animation locks to punish them
    4) I find that if you get hit with a burst it's much easier to survive if you kite and start using LoS to force the mes to get in a more confined space where you can dump damage on him. Know that because they have superior mobility, most mirages will not hesitate to chase because they assume they can catch you quickly and pull off a kill. If you can get them to tunnel vision the kill, you can get a very strong bait play out of it.
    5) Manage your condi removal very sparingly, if you blow everything for each little condi you see, you'll be out of cd's before you get a chance to hit the mes. It will drive you crazy but sometimes you gotta get used to letting the condis tick if it saves your cds for a better time.
    6) Do your damage in bursts, mirage has a ton of evasion and invuln to use so trying to do constant damage can be very rough outside of things like weaver that can put out consistent pressure while evading

    Hope those have been helpful, let me know if there's anything else you want to know.

    I have a question regarding the stealth burst, does shield block stops it? or only evade works?

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's been covered in other threads, Mesmer is a soft/hard (depending on player skill) counter for all things Ranger. You will always be at a disadvantage much like Necro is at a disadvantage against YOU. While in a perfect world every class would be able to beat any other class. The reality is much more practical and counter classing is the only way of achieving some semblance of actual balance.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • Hello
    Yes another mirage thread! woohoo! But seriously how isnt mirage being balanced yet? im so sick and tired going against these power houses!
    I mean its allmost impossible it lockdown between the dazes, elusive mind, invunlnerable, and teleports (non "stunbreaks", take Jaunt as an example).
    If you stun them they just walk it of like it was nothing or they use daze essentially rendering you useless for the duration of the CC you put out. Yes! EM got a nerf but that was kitten! it still hard to punish a mirage for making a mistake or even multiple mistakes, they just waltz away like its nothing, if you hit CC let them sit in that unless they have an actual kitten stunbreak! And the clone spam is just ridiculous! just limit the mesmer to 3 clones or let the 3+clones do reduced dmg or no dmg at all.
    And not to mention the huge condi cover they have please just limit that to just a few! so atleast we can cleanse some of the dmg.

    kitten mirage!

    • Snapz
  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭

    Mesmer is limited to 3 clones already (if you run or dodge away from shattered clones so the mesmer can make new ones before the olds are shattered than it is a l2p issue) and mirage cloak can't be changed in the way that it is not instant during cc (except daze) and still can do everything else. Also that is not needed. No mirage without axe 3 or illusionary ambush can dodge that much, that it is any problem to hit the mirage.
    Just remove the stunbreak on EM and turn the trait into something useful. Its either broken with too less exhaustion or useless with too long exhaustion. Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush need at least double the cd already. All skills/ traits give 2 phantasms instead one (staff 3, Imagined Burden) should get changed back to only one phantasm. That mesmer can generates clones over clones without the need of Deceptive Evasion is just stupid. Means for condimes they can still go op Ineptitude and for Powermes they can use op Superiority Complex without any opportunity costs in clone generation. Some condiambushes maybe could need a little nerf.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    if you are ranger go S/D and if you think he's going to shatter dodge. You have access to more than enough on demand, plus signet.

    If they use stealth you have to anticipate and learn timings.

  • UfoCoffee.2084UfoCoffee.2084 Member ✭✭✭

    You have no chance. Condi mirage is the most brainless OP spec in the game and ranger is a free kill for them.

    Either run away like a kitten whenever you see them or reroll mesmer.

  • @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Condi mirage is much more forgiving and easy and spammy to play, the burst is 10 times harder to dodge and on top of that even their sustain is 10 times higher.

    Can you even explain why its 'more' forgiving and why their sustain is '10 times higher' than on power mirage? xD

  • Silence.3702Silence.3702 Member ✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Condi mirage is much more forgiving and easy and spammy to play, the burst is 10 times harder to dodge and on top of that even their sustain is 10 times higher.

    Can you even explain why its 'more' forgiving and why their sustain is '10 times higher' than on power mirage? xD

    Power mirage is still OP
    People just don't play it because you have condi mirage who's ridiculously op.
    Mirage is just that much high up there and people are scared of nerfs because deep inside they know they will have to work to get better

    Cries in ele

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Condi mirage is much more forgiving and easy and spammy to play, the burst is 10 times harder to dodge and on top of that even their sustain is 10 times higher.

    Can you even explain why its 'more' forgiving and why their sustain is '10 times higher' than on power mirage? xD

    If they run staff the boon spam uptime is higher and axe gives more evades to chain almost nonstop.
    The visual clutter and clone spam is way higher in condi mirage than power mirage, plus the break target utilities comes in handy a lot.

    Against power mirage if i get killed i know why, against condi even if the enemy is noob he has good chances to win, pistol 5 plus pistol 4 plus shatter 2 it's a simple 3 buttons combo with so low cd and not so much risk to use and you flood the enemy with over 10 stacks confusion torment etc.

    Then add axe and the other skills and you see why it's more sustain than power version.

  • @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Condi mirage is much more forgiving and easy and spammy to play, the burst is 10 times harder to dodge and on top of that even their sustain is 10 times higher.

    Can you even explain why its 'more' forgiving and why their sustain is '10 times higher' than on power mirage? xD

    If they run staff the boon spam uptime is higher and axe gives more evades to chain almost nonstop.
    The visual clutter and clone spam is way higher in condi mirage than power mirage, plus the break target utilities comes in handy a lot.

    Against power mirage if i get killed i know why, against condi even if the enemy is noob he has good chances to win, pistol 5 plus pistol 4 plus shatter 2 it's a simple 3 buttons combo with so low cd and not so much risk to use and you flood the enemy with over 10 stacks confusion torment etc.

    Then add axe and the other skills and you see why it's more sustain than power version.

    No direct answer except 'they just spam evades nonstop reeeeeeeeeeeee' ? Okay...

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    @SnapzGW.3795 said:
    And the clone spam is just ridiculous! just limit the mesmer to 3 clones or let the 3+clones do reduced dmg or no dmg at all.

    It's official, clone damage op!

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    The only problem is condi/hybrid mirage, and especially axe is disgusting, so hard and unfun to play against.
    Why I have no problem against power mirages?

    You have no problem against power mirage because power mirage is one trick pony with awful sustain damage.

  • @UfoCoffee.2084 said:
    You have no chance. Condi mirage is the most brainless OP spec in the game and ranger is a free kill for them.

    Either run away like a kitten whenever you see them or reroll mesmer.

    That is sad to hear.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @SnapzGW.3795 said:
    And the clone spam is just ridiculous! just limit the mesmer to 3 clones or let the 3+clones do reduced dmg or no dmg at all.

    It's official, clone damage op!

    That's actually a major difference between power and condi mesmer in general. Winds of Chaos from clones still inflicts conditions, clones spamming GS lazor beams can absolutely be ignored.

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    The only problem is condi/hybrid mirage, and especially axe is disgusting, so hard and unfun to play against.
    Why I have no problem against power mirages?

    You have no problem against power mirage because power mirage is one trick pony with awful sustain damage.

    Which is the way it should be for high damage specs. :wink:

    Condi has more damage possibilities than power. And while GS is usually pure offense, condi has defense on both weapon sets (axe 3, staff 2, scepter 2 and stuff).

    Power mesmer could need some boon rip though. Or some more ways to do sustained DPS, I agree on this. Wait, am I talking about mesmer buffs?! HANG ON!

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Condi mirage is much more forgiving and easy and spammy to play, the burst is 10 times harder to dodge and on top of that even their sustain is 10 times higher.

    Can you even explain why its 'more' forgiving and why their sustain is '10 times higher' than on power mirage? xD

    If they run staff the boon spam uptime is higher and axe gives more evades to chain almost nonstop.
    The visual clutter and clone spam is way higher in condi mirage than power mirage, plus the break target utilities comes in handy a lot.

    Against power mirage if i get killed i know why, against condi even if the enemy is noob he has good chances to win, pistol 5 plus pistol 4 plus shatter 2 it's a simple 3 buttons combo with so low cd and not so much risk to use and you flood the enemy with over 10 stacks confusion torment etc.

    Then add axe and the other skills and you see why it's more sustain than power version.

    No direct answer except 'they just spam evades nonstop reeeeeeeeeeeee' ? Okay...

    Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read.

  • @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read.

    'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'...
    I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read.

    'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'...
    I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P

    pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read.

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read.

    'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'...
    I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P

    pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read.

    You unable to understand how ridiculous and stupid your claims and thats really saddening... Because axe3 have breaktargeting compared to BF thats gives condi mirage 10 times more sustain ... tf you even talking about pistol offhand and trying to connect it to 'sustain' ? Just another forum QQ kid that pretend to be smart .
    I wont even look at your nonsense again ...

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭

    Ppl still complain about power mesmer after it got nerfed without being op before? Lmao hopeless

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read.

    'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'...
    I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P

    pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read.

    Axe has one 0.75s evade/target break which also ports directly at you, so easy to find the mesmer again especially if they shatter. I don't get the issues with axe target break, it takes barely a second or so to retarget or simply cleave/aoe given you know where the mirage is. If they use in wvw to port to an npc or some other target then that's a big burst wasted and nothing to worry about anyway. Most of the time the animation is dodgeable - or even if moving fast enough can miss entirely.

    Axe 2 you're a sitting duck during the animation so either encouraged to cover cast with dodge or use in situation where you don't get hit - or get hit and eat damage. This is such a vulnerable skill on its own if not for mirage cloak being able to cover cast and protect it.

    Axe auto requires sitting in melee range to hit - not something a mirage is going to be doing for any length of time - as they'll likely have to dodge which then causes ambush cast.

    So the only legit issue with axe is potentially shaving the ambush torment duration a fraction - ie down to 3s torment from 4s, given it doesn't require much effort to land and how easily spammable it is.

    Power/Condi/Hybrid - whatever, all have similar sustain aside from stats where say in wvw pure condi can go TB cheese (but that is really easy to counter with overloading on cleanse as there's no direct damage). In terms of active defence there's barely much difference in building for evade access or mobility, or even detarget/stealth. Some might have more of one than another, but overall if every spec went pure glass without defensive stats there wouldn't be much in it regarding survivability, and actually power would have the upper hand due to easier and faster ttk. Hybrid/condi benefit is more about having multiple/flexible options for landing damage - ie less punishing for missing burst as there are multiple follow up options, but at the same time burst is lower so more time for an opponent to react/deal with it.

    The issues I believe could benefit from balance are:
    Inspiration - overloaded sustain due to new signet trait and synergy with RI/distortion spam.
    Ineptitude - mindless confusion spam through blind application, should be changed.
    Mirage Thrust - preferably removing the clone spawn, but a number of possibilities to bring in line.
    Axe Ambush - as above maybe a slight torment duration shave.

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • @Curunen.8729 said:
    The issues I believe could benefit from balance are:
    Inspiration - overloaded sustain due to new signet trait and synergy with RI/distortion spam. -> true winner is chrono. Current meta build isnt using it
    Ineptitude - mindless confusion spam through blind application, should be changed. -> changed to DE because of IH need clones to work . This change wont affect current mirage at all imo.
    Mirage Thrust - preferably removing the clone spawn, but a number of possibilities to bring in line. -> As if other skills would be looked at as well :) Btw right now not used in 'meta' build . And clone generated if you are in range of leap description and leaping on target
    Axe Ambush - as above maybe a slight torment duration shave. -> true

    I Would add scepter had buff that doesnt really needed ,stolen laser from FA eles...
    Long story short:
    Too much complaints about EM . Now everyone swapped to only choice left - IH . Mirage lost its sword in favor of better IH and got alot more damage but low mobility.
    Imo biggest culript is new IH :)

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