TWILIGHT OASIS with Afflicted/Toxic Trail/Last Laugh - Might Need To Be Prevented

Twilight Oasis is notoriously the most difficult fractal outside of challenge motes in 99 and 100. This is especially true vs. normal T4 groups who are not accustomed to CM/T4/Rec 100 ESS type of LFG group play. What makes Twilight Oasis so difficult for normal T4'ers is mainly the larger groups of mobs that are actually dangerous, and then of course the boss at the end. What makes the mobs & the boss dangerous is that they front mechanics which forces the party to take damage from multiple small sources, a lot of damage that is not so easily avoidable.

The easiest way to make my point here, would be to explain what I have witnessed on the daily reset of 11/27/2018 7:00 pm eastern, to 11/28/2018 7:00 pm eastern. <- It was on that dreadful day that Afflicted/Toxic Trail/Last Laugh fell together in Twilight Oasis. So I had ran in some usual CM/T4/Rec 100 ESS group to completely my own dailies. It was some usual 45 minute job and as we passed through Twilight Oasis, I remember a couple guys mentioning "Afflicted/Toxic Trail/Last Laugh" but I didn't really notice it because it was a strong group and the mistlock instabilities were slightly inconvenient at worst. Later, when I had other friends ask me if I wanted to run T4s with them "these are people who don't CM", I figured sure why not, don't have much else to do anyway. These are people who I've never seen have problems with general T4 runs. When we entered Twilight Oasis with "Afflicted/Toxic Trail/Last Laugh", they began having problems. They had wiped several times on the way to the boss and then eventually called it quits when they were unable to defeat the boss. They tried for something close to an hour to beat Twilight Oasis. I felt bad because usually I could carry these players through a bad situation in a fractal, but not this. I had gone to sleep and woke up, another guy on my contact's list randomly messages me and asks me to help with Twilight Oasis. This is someone I don't normally ever hear from unless he wants help with something difficult. Again, this is a player that I've never seen have problems with any T4 completion. I join this guy's party and they're already at the boss. The team comp is meta minus a BS, so we give it a shot, party wipes at Grenth phase specifically due to how the instabilities interact with the phase. We try multiple times, the party has serious issues with Grenth phase and when they did make it to the final phase, they just couldn't sustain it. The Druid wasn't bad and neither was the mechanical knowledge of the party as a whole, it's just that they weren't an excellent CM ready fractal group. Should they have to be to be able to complete a normal general T4?

So what was making Twilight Oasis so difficult for a general T4 group? Well let's take a look at how these instabilities are interacting with the fractal, which is different than others:

• Afflicted - "Enemies apply random damaging conditions, this includes: Bleeding, Burning, Confusion, Poison and Torment" Now normally this isn't that big of an issue even in CM 99 & 100. Other fractals have rehearsed mechanics that can be finely and routinely dodged around to avoid damage in general, which allows players to avoid the instability. Other fractals also don't have enormous amounts of mobs, outside of Battleground. But in Twilight Oasis there are already dangerous mobs, all over the place, that are gaining amplified damage from Afflicted. When the players reach the boss, its mechanics spit so much random AoE in addition to other small strikes, that this somewhat unavoidable small damage becomes moderate damage with Afflicted.
• Toxic Trail - "Causes enemies to create green AoE circles underneath themselves which deal direct damage and inflict Poison" This is again, not that big of an issue with other fractals as many fractals have mostly slower, smaller, and easier to kill mobs, or mobs that even stand still like the Harpies in Uncatagorized. In Twilight Oasis the mobs are large, durable, and have a lot of CC assist from the elite targets which are constantly knocking players around with tornados ect, which leads to players getting hit by Toxic Trails. In other fractals it is easy to moderate the movement of mobs so that not too many Toxic Trails are even being created, but in Twilight Oasis, due to tornados, other CCs, and mobs that are actually dangerous, players are often being pushed out of their positions, being forced to special hotkey stun break jump, dodge roll, reposition, move around and kite, and this leads to mobs following the players, which leads to a lot of messy Toxic Trail play that is very different than the way it functions in other fractals. Then we have the boss which summons multiple AI adds throughout its phases, which make great use of Toxic Trail. Oh and don't forget that Toxic Trail is constantly applying poison, which is nerfing the party heals by 33%. That's a lot of condis in conjunction with Afflicted, and a lot of extra punishing damage for being CC'd around into the trails of mobs.
• Last Laugh - "Each enemy killed explodes within a 180 radius 1.75 seconds after its death, dealing 1-1.5k damage and dazing foes within range" So you got these tornados pushing everyone around, baiting out dodge rolls from the mob's normal attacks, extra baiting of dodge rolls from Toxic Trail, and then you add Last Laugh into this equation and there is even more baiting of dodge rolls to avoid it, mixed with extra punishing CC if you can't. All of this tagged up with Afflicted, starts creating a situation with unavoidable moderate damage that is often poisoning the party for a -33% to healing. Once again, I don't have a problem with any of this in other fractals, even Battleground or Molten Boss "where there are larger mobs" because there aren't random tornados and elites already spitting super pressuring CC attacks all over the place. The bosses of those other fractals also have easily avoidable mechanics. Twilight Oasis on the other hand, not so much.

So my direct statement on this issue is that: Due to the special kind of dynamic in Twilight Oasis, which is very different than other fractals, having these 3 mistlock instabilities land together puts Twilight Oasis somewhere between 99 CM and 100 CM in terms of difficulty. It is slightly more difficult than 99 CM and slightly less difficult than 100 CM. These 3 instabilities could land together in any other fractal and it wouldn't increase the difficulty of those fractals by that much, but when it happens in Twilight Oasis, due to the special chemistry that Twilight Oasis mechanics have with these 3 particular instabilities, it is enough of a boost in difficulty to make Twilight Oasis considered a CM.

For the general T4 community and continuity of "how difficult a normal T4 should be", it just might be a great public service to code in that these 3 instabilities never land together ever again in Twilight Oasis.

Can confirm. Additionally, it seems that Afflicted may be the main culprit here. I was surprised of how fast we were wiping on sandbinders on the way to the boss, until i checked the condition bar and saw, that the conditions from Afflicted weren't just a few stacks. Multiple mobs seem to insanely add up, and i was almost continuously having upward of 20 stacks of confusion and torment. That alone would have been bad enough. Coupled with Toxic Trail and Last laugh it created a really nightmarish environment. The pug healer we had was quite good actually, but was still pretty much unable to keep up with this.

Ironically, the fractal became much easier once the boss phases started, and we've managed to kill Amala on the first try (even if it was really, really close at the end). All of the (many) wipes were on the supposedly easier trash mobs before her. And the almost-wipe at the end was also courtesy not to her, but to the mob crowd surrounding priestess of balthasar.

All in all it was one of the worse runs of TO i've ever had, and this time it wasn't due to pugs.

Instabilities need a rework in general and i still consider the change to have different instabilities each day as one of the worst.

I remember a couple guys mentioning "Afflicted/Toxic Trail/Last Laugh" but I didn't really notice it because it was a strong group and the mistlock instabilities were slightly inconvenient at worst.:lol: Tend to do the same thing, link out instabilities combos that I think its dangerous (for heads-up). Yeaterday was memorable for me as well, linked out all 3 :lol:. Semi PuG, the healer had it rough but did well.

Astralporing.1957 is spot on. Afflicted is the main culprit (especially for T.O and Mai's pistol whip). Multiple mobs pulled aside, mainly it's *tornadoes; will continuously apply condi and drop toxic trails.

L.L is not a threat, plenty of time to walk out/dodge (cept for Subject 6; those :bleep_bloop: slimes not only heals it but triggers L.L as well) Avoid standing on the poison puddles for Toxic Trail. Just need to be calm and collected.

PS: Think this combo happened once waaay back in Snowblind. Was fun :smiley:.

I personally think the main gripe should be with the big disparity between instabilities. It is a balance issue when one set of instabilities is so much tougher while other instabilities are so much easier bordering on free loot.

That said I don't care if Arenanet either ups the difficulty of the easier instabilities or reduces the difficulty of the outliers.

I do find it funny though how literally every single approach of people is always: make it easier, I want my loot. When did we reach the point where loot was guaranteed just for participating (which it mostly is in fractals anyway)?

Two skills can carry your entire party in TO with this instability combo: Healing Spring and special action. Maybe they should use what is available to them and dont facetank everything.

bring something other than druid , support Fb with stability/aegis plus massive passive heal/burst heal build, and bring a boon chrono , problem solved

But I suppose pve community still cant throw druid away. ;-)

Sure to be a blast when that specific combo of instabilities are on the daily T4 TO, especially after each god's phases.

@Rodrick.1942 said:bring something other than druid , support Fb with stability/aegis plus massive passive heal/burst heal build, and bring a boon chrono , problem solved

But I suppose pve community still cant throw druid away. ;-)

True druid is pretty useless nowdays weakest healer of all. But ppl cant realise that fb scourge even theif is far superior as healers

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Rodrick.1942 said:bring something other than druid , support Fb with stability/aegis plus massive passive heal/burst heal build, and bring a boon chrono , problem solved

But I suppose pve community still cant throw druid away. ;-)

Druid still dont get taken for their healing its a bonus over the offensive support it gives.

@Rodrick.1942 said:bring something other than druid , support Fb with stability/aegis plus massive passive heal/burst heal build, and bring a boon chrono , problem solved

But I suppose pve community still cant throw druid away. ;-)

What eaxctly stab going to do with 8 stacks of confusions and pile of aoe that covers 75-80% of room from dead mobs.

@Linken.6345 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Rodrick.1942 said:bring something other than druid , support Fb with stability/aegis plus massive passive heal/burst heal build, and bring a boon chrono , problem solved

But I suppose pve community still cant throw druid away. ;-)

Firebrand gives a very good offensive support too... Quickness and Mights on top of the defensive Stability/Aegis/Regeneration and condi clears...There is a reason why Support Firebrand is a much more popular healer in the pvp game modes, and it's because it's strong presence. But here in PvE, people seen to think it's Druid or GTFO without even considering anything else as viable.

Druids are still more than capable of healing anything any Fractal, including Oasis, are able to throw at you. Most people simply seem to have quite low benchmarks for what a Druid is supposed to be able to handle to be considered "good", I guess.Not that I am denying that there are easier supports for that Fractal. Bring a Scourge with barrier and countless condi clears as well as dead easy boon removal to allow your Warrior to focus on damage dealing if you want "easy".

I love when the Grenth avatar spawns 500 jagged horrors and they all get oneshot by AoE skills immediately and explosions pop in your eyes like new year's eve in Copenhagen.

@Cattastrophy.2874 said:I love when the Grenth avatar spawns 500 jagged horrors and they all get oneshot by AoE skills immediately and explosions pop in your eyes like new year's eve in Copenhagen.

leaving toxic trail in that small area with Amala

@vaxjani.9073 said:Two skills can carry your entire party in TO with this instability combo: Healing Spring and special action. Maybe they should use what is available to them and dont facetank everything.

Agreed, but pointing out again, My CM group had no issues traversing and completing TO with these instabilities. It was normal T4 groups who are trying to actively avoiding CM level difficulty, that could not beat TO with these instabilities.

The purpose of this thread is simply to point out that the continuity of TO's difficulty as a general normal T4 becomes broken with these 3 instabilities, and that it is every bit as challenging as 99CM at least, when those instabilities are attached. Not sure if that is Arenanet's intent, so I figured someone should point it out.

I dunno, Cliffside with Social Awkward / Last Laugh / Flux bomb is pretty damn evilbad. Twilight Oasis is a toughie for sure, but on my Guard at least, I load up on condi cleanse and have to be quick at spinning out of last laugh.

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:Instabilities need a rework in general and i still consider the change to have different instabilities each day as one of the worst.

Agreed, I prefer each level to have their own fixed instability always like it was in the past.

@phs.6089 said:

@"Rodrick.1942" said:bring something other than druid , support Fb with stability/aegis plus massive passive heal/burst heal build, and bring a boon chrono , problem solved

But I suppose pve community still cant throw druid away. ;-)

Some support class can easily deal with condition problem( scourge/Fb/rev) , scourge's shield and Fb/renegade's passive heal (1k health per sec) help teammates absorb the damage from toxic trail...well , it seems pointless to mention these unless ppl already try it before.

I dont try to say druid suck or something , I just want to point out that we have no right to argue about this instability combination issue just because it doesn't fit the "current meta team comp --- offense boon druid + chrono ".

I know people will try to disable and kill mobs before they cause more trouble, but when things doesnt goes well , you guys doesnt try other possible solutions, instead make such argument in reddit and here, complaining about its too difficult.

Are we gonna make this game just for druid and chrono ?

@Rodrick.1942 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@Rodrick.1942 said:bring something other than druid , support Fb with stability/aegis plus massive passive heal/burst heal build, and bring a boon chrono , problem solved

But I suppose pve community still cant throw druid away. ;-)

I don't think it's about any of that. The point you're making would be better suited to example different types of dungeon situations right. Like a particular spot that requires no running, just stacking and killing and breaking bars, vs. a spot that requires stealthing and run builds, vs. a spot that specifically requires power damage not condi, ect.. ect.. In GW1, this was like a major design aspect of the game. I played GW1 for many years and so I am quite well acquainted with the idea of needing to alter setups to complete a particular content. The difference here in GW2 dungeons or GW1 content in general, is that none of that content was more difficult than any of the other, it just required swapping some stats/skills or possibly outfits to optimize the dungeon or mission or sometimes run.

Twilight Oasis with these 3 instabilities on the other hand, isn't just something you swap a few skills to accommodate. It is clearly much more difficult in general than other T4s, which might I add don't even require Druids or Chronos or tweaked setups to complete. Twilight Oasis with those 3 stabilities, definitely requires a stronger and more well formed meta party. You'll need the Healer, you'll need that Chrono for the fast burns, and you're gonna need 3 experienced DPS who can stay alive long enough to even receive condi cleanse and heals. Those 3 instabilities, particularly Afflicted, when stacked on top of TO, turns it into a CM. The instabilities don't effect other fractals like that.

I actually like it, it makes my Tempest Healer with superior healing, condi cleanse and revive power feel relevant.

Just make sure there's sufficient condi cleanse (whenever there's afflicted + TT) and the problem won't be severe even with LL.

The tornadoes played a major role and complement with the instabilities. Starts by drawing in player(s) and applies Aff every second. The trapped player will then be dragged along into poison puddles involuntarily. Initial contact with the puddles applies poison and triggers another Aff. Stacking up condi at an alarming rate if left alone. Unlike normal npc mobs, the tornadoes is constantly moving; dropping TT and can't be killed.

That said, I do understand OP's concern about the difficulty for TO with this set of instabilities. Requires good dps - to not drag the fight, optimization and probably best with a healer(possible without but...harsh).

I recall that day.Went in with my guard.Wipe after wipe.Switched to my Druid. So we were two druids now.People were still going splat, but we finished it like this, with only one dead.People saying this can be done without a dedicated healer...I think they were not online that day.

It certainly is possible without dying.Still one of the worst combinations.

Just Dodge grenths big aoe and he doesnt spawn minions, instead of stacking eles as dps, use scourges instead. Oh and druid should bring The healtrap +use stonespirit to help with prot uptime instead of taking The glyph. Also dh for once using F3 to help with aegis does wonders.