Tips to fight against overwhelmingly strong guilds? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Tips to fight against overwhelmingly strong guilds?

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  • what an honor to be on a list with such greats. salute

    Maguuma

    VR

  • Join their guild and sabotage their efforts from within.

    _We must secure the existence of our Quaggans and a future for Quaggan children. _

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    There is a legitimate way with pugs and even numbers

    The key is that guild groups will almost always run in a singular unified unit. The trick is to bring the fight to key locations that turn their movement against them

    Start by having fights close to choke points. Set up ACs in the rear and bombard the choke point to prevent them from pushing, and siege up your towers. When they push for the siege, you have to counter push into their back line as they go for the siege. If they retreat it’s usually a faint because when they retreat they will about face to counter push into you... don’t fall into this.

    If you see the retreating don’t chase them to far. Just enough to gain a better position...and by better position, I mean a position that will gain you access to thier back line. Higher ground on cliffs is a good way to get behind them again if they go to counter push your tail.

    I’ve commanded against zergs like VR and we were able to defeat them with these tactics with pugs

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    There is a legitimate way with pugs and even numbers

    The key is that guild groups will almost always run in a singular unified unit. The trick is to bring the fight to key locations that turn their movement against them

    Start by having fights close to choke points. Set up ACs in the rear and bombard the choke point to prevent them from pushing, and siege up your towers. When they push for the siege, you have to counter push into their back line as they go for the siege. If they retreat it’s usually a faint because when they retreat they will about face to counter push into you... don’t fall into this.

    If you see the retreating don’t chase them to far. Just enough to gain a better position...and by better position, I mean a position that will gain you access to thier back line. Higher ground on cliffs is a good way to get behind them again if they go to counter push your tail.

    I’ve commanded against zergs like VR and we were able to defeat them with these tactics with pugs

    There are several ways to beat guild groups in defensive fights assuming you have the luxury of upgraded things and lots of siege that actually gets manned and competent pugs but offensively this strategy simply isn't viable nor is it viable in open field. The best a bunch of pugs can hope to do against a superior organized force is try to stall defensively and not lose everything.

  • Maybe use the common tactics in WvW, that keep us in love with this mode for years now:

    (A) outnumbering: hide in your castle and call the cavalry

    (B) trolling: get some troll builds (aka high mobility and single-target burst), split up in 2 groups, let one group bait / kite and the other focus on one single enemy player, let the two groups constantly switch roles

    PS: and pls make vid and post it here :p

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    There is a legitimate way with pugs and even numbers

    The key is that guild groups will almost always run in a singular unified unit. The trick is to bring the fight to key locations that turn their movement against them

    Start by having fights close to choke points. Set up ACs in the rear and bombard the choke point to prevent them from pushing, and siege up your towers. When they push for the siege, you have to counter push into their back line as they go for the siege. If they retreat it’s usually a faint because when they retreat they will about face to counter push into you... don’t fall into this.

    If you see the retreating don’t chase them to far. Just enough to gain a better position...and by better position, I mean a position that will gain you access to thier back line. Higher ground on cliffs is a good way to get behind them again if they go to counter push your tail.

    I’ve commanded against zergs like VR and we were able to defeat them with these tactics with pugs

    There are several ways to beat guild groups in defensive fights assuming you have the luxury of upgraded things and lots of siege that actually gets manned and competent pugs but offensively this strategy simply isn't viable nor is it viable in open field. The best a bunch of pugs can hope to do against a superior organized force is try to stall defensively and not lose everything.

    What do you mean, I always yell "Just HOLD ON for 5 minutes kitten I'm getting this treb up to put poison on you." from the wall when I see a guild group approach.

  • " I’ve commanded against zergs like VR and we were able to defeat them with these tactics with pugs"
    in other word u blob them down with # if u call that tactics ok lol

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    There is a legitimate way with pugs and even numbers

    The key is that guild groups will almost always run in a singular unified unit. The trick is to bring the fight to key locations that turn their movement against them

    Start by having fights close to choke points. Set up ACs in the rear and bombard the choke point to prevent them from pushing, and siege up your towers. When they push for the siege, you have to counter push into their back line as they go for the siege. If they retreat it’s usually a faint because when they retreat they will about face to counter push into you... don’t fall into this.

    If you see the retreating don’t chase them to far. Just enough to gain a better position...and by better position, I mean a position that will gain you access to thier back line. Higher ground on cliffs is a good way to get behind them again if they go to counter push your tail.

    I’ve commanded against zergs like VR and we were able to defeat them with these tactics with pugs

    There are several ways to beat guild groups in defensive fights assuming you have the luxury of upgraded things and lots of siege that actually gets manned and competent pugs but offensively this strategy simply isn't viable nor is it viable in open field. The best a bunch of pugs can hope to do against a superior organized force is try to stall defensively and not lose everything.

    I mean your right, but if you really want to have a fighting chance your commander needs to know how to allocate your forces to pick fights that are more in your advantage. If your commander chose to fight a good guild in open field than you’ve already lost.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    There are pug zergs.
    And then there are average guild groups.
    And then there are skilled guild groups.
    And then there are extremely skilled guild groups.

    Naming a few extremely skilled guild groups currently active, in no particular order, that are tough to kill and relentless when they push (subjective according to what I've experienced, and not all-inclusive), we have guilds like:

    • Violent Resolution (VR)
    • Tempest Wolves (TW)
    • The Black Tides (TBT)
    • Giam Chye Cha Loti (AHMA)
    • Contrast (CRT)
    • Etc.

    So my question is...apart from 'get good' or 'git gud' which will take time for all the other guilds to progress to that 'extremely skilled' stage, what are the tips to take on these guilds?
    Tips in the form of group composition, rotation, build, engagement strategies etc.
    Should we bomb them from range? Charge into them? Pick on their stragglers?
    What should less skilled groups do to stand a better chance against them? What are they weak against? What would break them or force them to retreat?

    How are we supposed to answer these when there are too many variables?

    Teams run different comps, builds, and numbers all the time... and good teams switch things regularly depending on mood and opposition.

    I could understand the questions more if this were narrowed down to 1v1 or 5v5 spvp AND teams were known to run certain comps, but wvw is a different beast entirely.

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • TW OMEGALUL

    the worst player you've ever met
    UD- rank 9k+
    35 legendary weapons

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I mean your right, but if you really want to have a fighting chance your commander needs to know how to allocate your forces to pick fights that are more in your advantage. If your commander chose to fight a good guild in open field than you’ve already lost.

    I'm not disagreeing with you but I think you've highlighted the unpleasant reality of playing as a disorganized group of pugs against an organized guild group; you have to try to put everything in your favor and play defensively and just hope you don't lose due to stupid mistakes or just general disorganized nonsense. The lovely thing about playing as an organized guild group is that you can say "kitten all that" and try crazy risky gloriously disadvantaged fights and have a chance of coming out on top through superior organization and teamwork. It's great to try insane fights and win but it's also a lot of fun even if you lose. Better than sitting in upgraded structures and playing defense all day anyways.

    So my message to everyone is: make friends, find a guild, play together and you won't always be stuck building siege in defensive fights against organized guild groups.

  • HazyDaisy.4107HazyDaisy.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Limodriver.4106 said:
    " I’ve commanded against zergs like VR and we were able to defeat them with these tactics with pugs"
    in other word u blob them down with # if u call that tactics ok lol

    Well, guild groups run down solos and lesser groups and call that fights, so anything more should be a real joy for them if they're any good.

    [HaHa] Hazardous Hallucination - Sorrows Furnace

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I mean your right, but if you really want to have a fighting chance your commander needs to know how to allocate your forces to pick fights that are more in your advantage. If your commander chose to fight a good guild in open field than you’ve already lost.

    I'm not disagreeing with you but I think you've highlighted the unpleasant reality of playing as a disorganized group of pugs against an organized guild group; you have to try to put everything in your favor and play defensively and just hope you don't lose due to stupid mistakes or just general disorganized nonsense. The lovely thing about playing as an organized guild group is that you can say "kitten all that" and try crazy risky gloriously disadvantaged fights and have a chance of coming out on top through superior organization and teamwork. It's great to try insane fights and win but it's also a lot of fun even if you lose. Better than sitting in upgraded structures and playing defense all day anyways.

    So my message to everyone is: make friends, find a guild, play together and you won't always be stuck building siege in defensive fights against organized guild groups.

    Ya, although I find the opposite to be fun as well. It’s challenging to fight organized groups of players, and to win against them tactically is always fun...putting up a fight and trying your hardest with a rag tag group of good players and not so good players is what makes it fun for me, win or lose. Defensive fights are also fun as well. I’ve had some of the best ZvZ’s while defending places like a paper Durios in enemy territory, or defending Ogrewatch T3 in 3 way zergs. planning how to push into each other at the ogre camp choke, and the panglose camp choke (probably the most epic 3 way Zerg I’ve fought in...despite it being riddled with siege wars)

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sostronk.8167 said:
    Join their guild and sabotage their efforts from within.

    You're actually half right.
    Best way to learn how to function as a team is to be on one.
    Waaay too many teams of one out there

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Is what you are asking impossible? No. But it is difficult. The suggestions about stacking as many variables in your favor is certainly the best method. Most guild groups if they even spend a minute amount of time on synergy plus have decent players will have the math on their side. It also depends if you are talking about a straight up open field fight or not. Can you get surpise? Can you have two groups hit them simultaneously?

    The groups I know who do the best don’t just run one thing and never change. They adapt and can run more than one comp depending on opponents.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    There is a legitimate way with pugs and even numbers

    The key is that guild groups will almost always run in a singular unified unit. The trick is to bring the fight to key locations that turn their movement against them

    Start by having fights close to choke points. Set up ACs in the rear and bombard the choke point to prevent them from pushing, and siege up your towers. When they push for the siege, you have to counter push into their back line as they go for the siege. If they retreat it’s usually a faint because when they retreat they will about face to counter push into you... don’t fall into this.

    If you see the retreating don’t chase them to far. Just enough to gain a better position...and by better position, I mean a position that will gain you access to thier back line. Higher ground on cliffs is a good way to get behind them again if they go to counter push your tail.

    I’ve commanded against zergs like VR and we were able to defeat them with these tactics with pugs

    There are several ways to beat guild groups in defensive fights assuming you have the luxury of upgraded things and lots of siege that actually gets manned and competent pugs but offensively this strategy simply isn't viable nor is it viable in open field. The best a bunch of pugs can hope to do against a superior organized force is try to stall defensively and not lose everything.

    What do you mean, I always yell "Just HOLD ON for 5 minutes kitten I'm getting this treb up to put poison on you." from the wall when I see a guild group approach.

    I think I heard that the other day.. kitten..

  • Overwhelming guild group?

    The real answer is hide in t3 structures build and sit on ACs, trebs, catas, shield gens, cannons, and omegas. Then wait until you have 2x the number.

    Any other answers are delusional.

    Power > Condition

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I mean your right, but if you really want to have a fighting chance your commander needs to know how to allocate your forces to pick fights that are more in your advantage. If your commander chose to fight a good guild in open field than you’ve already lost.

    I'm not disagreeing with you but I think you've highlighted the unpleasant reality of playing as a disorganized group of pugs against an organized guild group; you have to try to put everything in your favor and play defensively and just hope you don't lose due to stupid mistakes or just general disorganized nonsense. The lovely thing about playing as an organized guild group is that you can say "kitten all that" and try crazy risky gloriously disadvantaged fights and have a chance of coming out on top through superior organization and teamwork. It's great to try insane fights and win but it's also a lot of fun even if you lose. Better than sitting in upgraded structures and playing defense all day anyways.

    So my message to everyone is: make friends, find a guild, play together and you won't always be stuck building siege in defensive fights against organized guild groups.

    Ya, although I find the opposite to be fun as well. It’s challenging to fight organized groups of players, and to win against them tactically is always fun...putting up a fight and trying your hardest with a rag tag group of good players and not so good players is what makes it fun for me, win or lose. Defensive fights are also fun as well. I’ve had some of the best ZvZ’s while defending places like a paper Durios in enemy territory, or defending Ogrewatch T3 in 3 way zergs. planning how to push into each other at the ogre camp choke, and the panglose camp choke (probably the most epic 3 way Zerg I’ve fought in...despite it being riddled with siege wars)

    you mentioned durios. i remember this silent commander with his outnumbered (not massively outnumbered but was 1.8:3 ratio IIRC) pug putting up 5 superior acs on the guild lord area of the paper tower of durios (and durios is even a capped tower, not belonging to the team. so it's like offensively defended). and some of the pug manned them and the mapzerg nsp assaulted, arrows fired, and this silent commander charged alone, popped his WoD (this was when WoD is in its original state), did damage, then the frontliners of the pug followed through and guess what happened? NSP bags.

    lel.

  • @zionophir.6845 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I mean your right, but if you really want to have a fighting chance your commander needs to know how to allocate your forces to pick fights that are more in your advantage. If your commander chose to fight a good guild in open field than you’ve already lost.

    I'm not disagreeing with you but I think you've highlighted the unpleasant reality of playing as a disorganized group of pugs against an organized guild group; you have to try to put everything in your favor and play defensively and just hope you don't lose due to stupid mistakes or just general disorganized nonsense. The lovely thing about playing as an organized guild group is that you can say "kitten all that" and try crazy risky gloriously disadvantaged fights and have a chance of coming out on top through superior organization and teamwork. It's great to try insane fights and win but it's also a lot of fun even if you lose. Better than sitting in upgraded structures and playing defense all day anyways.

    So my message to everyone is: make friends, find a guild, play together and you won't always be stuck building siege in defensive fights against organized guild groups.

    Ya, although I find the opposite to be fun as well. It’s challenging to fight organized groups of players, and to win against them tactically is always fun...putting up a fight and trying your hardest with a rag tag group of good players and not so good players is what makes it fun for me, win or lose. Defensive fights are also fun as well. I’ve had some of the best ZvZ’s while defending places like a paper Durios in enemy territory, or defending Ogrewatch T3 in 3 way zergs. planning how to push into each other at the ogre camp choke, and the panglose camp choke (probably the most epic 3 way Zerg I’ve fought in...despite it being riddled with siege wars)

    you mentioned durios. i remember this silent commander with his outnumbered (not massively outnumbered but was 1.8:3 ratio IIRC) pug putting up 5 superior acs on the guild lord area of the paper tower of durios (and durios is even a capped tower, not belonging to the team. so it's like offensively defended). and some of the pug manned them and the mapzerg nsp assaulted, arrows fired, and this silent commander charged alone, popped his WoD (this was when WoD is in its original state), did damage, then the frontliners of the pug followed through and guess what happened? NSP bags.

    lel.

    That sounds epic. This is the type of tactical prowess that I enjoy when up against impossible odds

    My particular experience was a 2 hour stand off of me and the Zerg holding durious so we could launch an offensive on their T3 bravost. We had only a handful of people (really bad pugs) but we were able to beat the opposing zerg of 50 + by constantly pushing and retreating at the right times.

    Bravost was so sieged up that it was futile to take it but it was a fun 2 hours of loot

  • Rampage.7145Rampage.7145 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018

    Wanna beat a good guild? Get in a guild build up numbers use meta builds, get a competent commander. It is the only way pugs vs guild is just not even fair because the current meta benefits comunication over everything since people die so fast, there is very very little time to react to a bomb specially, so organization and comunication are stronger than ever in WvW. Wanna beat a good guild with pugs? good luck with that if they are not in comms and all running meta builds.

    VR Driver
    Salty beavers top guild 2 years in a row back to back, the double champs
    https://saltybeavers.com/

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018

    @ThunderPanda.1872 said:
    Overwhelming guild group?

    The real answer is hide in t3 structures build and sit on ACs, trebs, catas, shield gens, cannons, and omegas. Then wait until you have 2x the number.

    Any other answers are delusional.

    U dont need more numbers u just need to have more aoe spam....reason u bait and advance when theres 2 large forces colliding.

    Still.. aoe spam capility is what makes groups win 1 first place, if one side dont have better do something else.
    Most guild and groups are basicly compounded by 50%-70% scourges due its aoe spam and barriers, on WvW they walk fast due boon farts from left and right lol« form the Anet favored broken class...

    The first rule should be, get more FB and scourges than enemy has...
    The 2nd one should be learn not to get baited.
    The 3rd, if wining still hard think a bit and add something more lame to the combat, this game is about being lame to win, its a game ment to carry bad players after all.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    1) Try to fight near your own claim buff. Those 400 (or 800) stats matter way more to a guild than casual pugs that never dodge or bomb. Difference is 800 stats between fighting at their and your claim buff.

    2) Run more hammer revs, guilds can't do much against smart hammer revs when they're busy chasing down the people who can only deal proper damage below 600 range.

    3) Turn around and run away when the enemy uses veil, dont packpedal or try to hold them. You will lose all your ranged pressure if you take on a veil engage. Obviously your group has to know how to do this automatically beforehand.

    4) Don't try to disengage and bomb their commander like its a pirateshippy blobfight. Keep the pressure up. They have less players and their party comp is capable of healing and booning up fully if left alone for a few seconds. Obviously you need a commander that can survive.

    5) Dodge their first bomb. Literally tell people to dodge when they see 1st necro aoe field below them. Your chances of winning go drastically up if you don't get one-shot.

    6) Do not stack. Melee game is guild and comp game.

    7) Don't run condi, condi is way worse against good players that actually spend attention to when and what they need to cleanse.

    8) Slowly improve your composition.. Majority of commanders don't even understand how overpowered superspeed is and only ask for guardians, wars and necros these days, same goes for illusion of life, For example you can have chrono run Illusion + mimic and he can ress 9 people at the start of the fight. Only thief and ranger are really out of meta (and even they would be remotely viable if skill lag and low graphics computers didn't exist).

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander/hard carry
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • @Junkpile.7439 said:
    One good tactic is make big swords, wait until enemy come defend and teleport in spawn.

    Ah, reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_strategy again

    Romans were pro PPTers.

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