Please don't put Champions on top of hero points.

As title.

Dear ANet,

Don't put an event that makes us kill a normal npc, a veteran AND a champion on top of a hero point inside a tiny as hell tunnel with half a dozen strong orrian turrets that can hit you from about 900 - 1000 away.

(Yes, I am talking about the one in Malchor's Leap near Doric's Waypoint)

Sincerely,

Auto.

If you need help, just ask someone in guild or map. Or did you want to solo?

Where's the fun in that? I personally don't mind it. I've had three champs in one before. Fun times.

Personally Xylo, I prefer to play mostly solo in the open world areas. Or with my IRL mate. I jump into evets and dungeons often, but I'd rather be given the choice of when to play nice, not told - get help here or try again later.

Imo it is kinda bad and good at the same time, same with the HoT Champion Points. If you are good you can solo most of them but if you just simply don't want to you have to get people to help you. Sometimes there is no one to help and that makes this super frustrating to deal with especially if it is the last point for a nice skill or the last point for the completion of a map. It would be nice if you had the choice of spawning a Champ or a Veteran or maybe an Elite or Legendary for people who want a challenge and people who just want the point.

or just keep HP's out of harms way, put it somewhere else for all i care as long as HP's don't get confused with world events.

Out of harm's way? Only reason I do HP's in HoT is because there's a lot of stuff around that can kill you. I love to solo them when I can. It's great.

I think the idea is that some hero points require teamwork.It'd be weird if the entire game could be cleared solo. Why play an MMO then?There's sufficient hero points soloable to clear your class and elite specs, its just clearing everything 100% will sometimes have obstacles you can't clear solo

That's the idea. People need that champion for collections. You need the point.

Find them, and work together, and both of you get what you want.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:That's the idea. People need that champion for collections. You need the point.

Find them, and work together, and both of you get what you want.

not always easy to do. Finding people to help with HoT Hero points on the eastern coast of the US with my work schedule is nearly impossible. I end up WvWing purchasing all them that way.

if you want to solo the game, then make a powerful solo build that can solo any content, no matter how challenging.

I think ANet realized that hero points requiring a group was a bad idea, as they made all of PoF intended to be solo-able. This is a change I can get behind, while it was interesting to have to group up to do the HPs, in the end it amounted to just being an annoyance because you always had to hope for someone to do an HP run. And the likelyhood of that decreases the older the game gets, sadly.

Actually, I just finished fully exploring the PoF maps, and I was quite alright with the way they went for this content, I don't think I had any problems doing this solo. Though I have to say, I run a very high sustain Sword/Dagger Weaver (WvW roaming) build on my Ele, since anything else is just not fun in PvE anymore, which allows me to solo some Champions as long as there is neither a time limit, nor too high, unavoidable, burst damage. Only the annoying aggro range and everything having ranged attacks that are intended to dismount you was a bad and at times quite infuriating design decision imo.

But anyway, I do agree that hero points should be solo-able and not event dependent - and I would also not be unhappy to see HoT ones be remade into such.(looking at some of those Orr ones ... unless they were changed?! Weren't there ones which needed the temple event to succeed first to be accessible? Not just talking about champions sitting on them, but rather there being an unavoidable field of constant damage around at least one of them if the temple was not taken?)

I mean, don't get me wrong, I like content that requires groups - it's just that there aren't always groups around. And I don't think HPs should be group content. We got the meta for that in HoT, or bounties in PoF. Things that aren't really required for your character to be able to advance.

@"Automaton.2751" said:(Yes, I am talking about the one in Malchor's Leap near Doric's Waypoint)

Hah, that is my "favorite" one, too! :s However, I often get lucky by arriving at a quiet time. The few times I didn't, I asked for help in map chat and all went quick and smoothly. :) :+1:

@Syrus.2174 said:

(*looking at some of those Orr ones ... unless they were changed?! Weren't there ones which needed the temple event to succeed first to be accessible? Not just talking about champions sitting on them, but rather there being an unavoidable field of constant damage around at least one of them if the temple was not taken?)

I mean, don't get me wrong, I like content that requires groups - it's just that there aren't always groups around. And I don't think HPs should be group content. We got the meta for that in HoT, or bounties in PoF. Things that aren't really required for your character to be able to advance.

Those ones generally can still be gotten, ive done entire map completions of those maps in those zones without any of the temples being taken!

@Dante.1763 said:

@Syrus.2174 said:

(*looking at some of those Orr ones ... unless they were changed?! Weren't there ones which needed the temple event to succeed first to be accessible? Not just talking about champions sitting on them, but rather there being an unavoidable field of constant damage around at least one of them if the temple was not taken?)

I mean, don't get me wrong, I like content that requires groups - it's just that there aren't always groups around. And I don't think HPs should be group content. We got the meta for that in HoT, or bounties in PoF. Things that aren't really required for your character to be able to advance.

Maybe it was changed, maybe I remember it wrong. Last time I did them I had no problem either, but I do remember having a problem with them a long time ago (like ... 6 years ago, when I first did it). But maybe I just had no idea back then. :p

Use this for Core Tyria Hero Points: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ash_Legion_Spy_Kit

For the HoT Hero Challenges (Champions) you can just do all the other (normal) Challenges. After that, use the Notarized Scrolls from WvW to get the remaining Hero Points: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Notarized_Scroll_of_Maguuma_Heroics

@"Syrus.2174" said:I think ANet realized that hero points requiring a group was a bad idea, as they made all of PoF intended to be solo-able. This is a change I can get behind, while it was interesting to have to group up to do the HPs, in the end it amounted to just being an annoyance because you always had to hope for someone to do an HP run. And the likelyhood of that decreases the older the game gets, sadly.

Like a lot of arguments about "this things" or "that thing", you're not taking into account the whole thing. Group events in HOT made sense, and still make sense, because those maps are very dense, and should have a lot of people in short range who can join in if it pops. The whole expansion's motto was "challenging group content"; and for the most part, it was designed to make that happen.

What went wrong is Anet changing their stance on map production, which changed how the game's population moves around the world. The original intent was to make maps with more repeatable activities, which in turn lends well to ad-hoc cooperation. The HPs that get the least amount of help are the ones away from high traffic zones (bat, troll, chak eggs), which ironically are still the hardest despite a lack of trash mobs and events spawning nearby them. HOT does exactly what it was built to do..... whether or not individual players (especially solo players) like it, is beside the point.

Season 3 and POF on the other hand was part of that pivot on map production. Rather then have maps that have lots of repeatable stuff to do, they now spit out large maps on a regular basis in order to change scenery, and make it more responsive to story specific phases for the player. However, the net result is even faster burn out of player interest; since their story relevance not only dates the event, but also only really makes them good for one "go" before got your story fix out of it. That content has to be "easy", because its assumes players are gonna be spread out, aside from a couple of specific metas. In the end, only the most lucrative farms retain participation... and thats incredibly counter productive given how limited their production resources are, and the increasing burn rate of the players. Given how they also need to pivot frequently to the mood of the players from month to month, but the production pipeline needing planning done at least 4 months in advance, we end up with these very hit or miss content releases.

The thing here is that some of quote/unquote "bad champ fights" don't have this problem, while others do. In fact.... only I'd only class 2 or 3 of the HP fights in HOT as particularly difficult, because the Champ plays on a strategy that will straight up decimate any build that doesn't have enough defenses in it. Mushrooms (especially mushroom queen) are a beast because they're always found in places with no room for movement, and have a lot of rapid cycling CCs.... which means they dominate in a long fight. Bat guano is hard because the Champ can heal; but once you understand that mechanic, you can kite it indefinitely. Balth's temple is only hard because its a phase fight with a small window to react to... but knowing the Health %, and getting ahead of it makes it manageable to all but the most glassy builds. Frogs is another one that gets people, since Blade Dancers stun lock.

Dealing with these requires "Effort".... but apparently even with the absolutely insane power creep, thats still not enough to compensate for any casuals that are too unwilling to take advantage of it, and build around a class's obvious strengths, or simply seek assistance if they can't. And probably the most vexing aspect of this is how you don't NEED all the HPs anymore to fully unlock a given Espec.... IE, you have the resources to come back later with a fully realized build, and can adapt to the specifics of the fight.

Another thing I forgot to point out about POF fights, is the huge amount of open space to literally kite anything around you. That is such a huge advantage, that even crappy builds (even by pug standards) have a lot leeway to avoid damage...... and EVEN THOSE were complained about when POF first launched. The only overall part of this argument I can concede is how some fights do not scale well at less then 5 and above 10. You usually see these in fights that hinge on break bars nullifying mechanics, or insanely small windows of opportunity (which can sum up Mushroom in a few words). I willing to bet if the break bars were more fragile, most solo players wouldn't realize the fight was supposed to be hard.

@Zin Dau.1749 said:if you want to solo the game, then make a powerful solo build that can solo any content, no matter how challenging.

Sure... Let's make a Build that can solo champions... Not only does that mean that I'd simply have to be like everyone else, not caring for how I want to play, that's also only possible with certain classes. And also then just makes me another clone of everyone else that's done that. Thanks, but no.

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"Syrus.2174" said:I think ANet realized that hero points requiring a group was a bad idea, as they made all of PoF intended to be solo-able. This is a change I can get behind, while it was interesting to have to group up to do the HPs, in the end it amounted to just being an annoyance because you always had to hope for someone to do an HP run. And the likelyhood of that decreases the older the game gets, sadly.

Î just think that hero points are the wrong place to put that difficult group content. To me a hero point is always something that should be difficult to solo - but still be soloable. A challenge, yes. But not a group challenge. The main reason for that being, that you need them to advance your character. You might even need them to that proper build you are talking about. Do keep in mind, we're not talking about end game content. We are not talking about players who have the best equip yet, players who are just starting probably even. Who just got their first level 80 characeter and ventured into HoT with the scraps they got, and neither the knowledge nor the ressources to face it.

Yes, you state that not all HPs are required - but in my opinion, it would throw any player off if there were some which are "nigh-impossible to get" while others are much easier. I just very much prefer to have other events, ones that always reward you, no matter if you did them before, offer the more difficult content intended for group play.

And with "group play" I don't mean "asking for someone to quickly help you with an HP", needing another person or two to get an HP is fine with me, if you don't have the proper build. It's just about it being intended as requiring a squad to master (and yes, I know, most can be done with just a few people if they know what they are doing and all, that's not the point). All in all, I rarely had problems myself. But I fear that some might not be as lucky.

Besides, with how uncommuncative people are seemingly becoming lately in the game,...

@"Syrus.2174" said:Î just think that hero points are the wrong place to put that difficult group content. To me a hero point is always something that should be difficult to solo - but still be soloable. A challenge, yes. But not a group challenge. The main reason for that being, that you need them to advance your character. You might even need them to that proper build you are talking about.Yes, you state that not all HPs are required - but in my opinion, it would throw any player off if there were some which are "nigh-impossible to get" while others are much easier. I just very much prefer to have other events, ones that always reward you, no matter if you did them before, offer the more difficult content intended for group play.

Besides, with how uncommuncative people are seemingly becoming lately in the game,...

This guy gets it. Hero points should potentially provide a challenge, sure, they're points where you prove you're the hero, better and stronger than the NPCs. But champions? Even in HoT "new challenging group content" shouldn't mean hero points. As syrus stated, what if you need those points to make your build? OK, sure, be proud that you have a toon that can solo a champ in a 10 minute fight... But unless you're in a dungeon, or doing a world boss, I really don't think a fight should last that long. Beating on the same enemy for that length of time is tedious. At least with dungeon bosses and world bosses they vary the mechanics and what you do changes based on what's happening. A single champion in a PvE area doesn't. You would then spend 8+ minutes repeating the same moves, dodges and abilities again, and again, and again, and AGAIN. Not fun.

@Automaton.2751 said:You would then spend 8+ minutes repeating the same moves, dodges and abilities again, and again, and again, and AGAIN. Not fun.Certainly sounds heroic to me! /sarcasm

@Automaton.2751 said:

@"Syrus.2174" said:Î just think that hero points are the wrong place to put that difficult group content. To me a hero point is always something that should be difficult to solo - but still be soloable. A challenge, yes. But not a group challenge. The main reason for that being, that you need them to advance your character. You might even need them to that proper build you are talking about.Yes, you state that not all HPs are required - but in my opinion, it would throw any player off if there were some which are "nigh-impossible to get" while others are much easier. I just very much prefer to have other events, ones that always reward you, no matter if you did them before, offer the more difficult content intended for group play.

Besides, with how uncommuncative people are seemingly becoming lately in the game,...

Except none of this is really accurate.

HoT HP champions only have 500-800k health. Unless you're dealing ~1K DPS it should take you nowhere near 8+ minutes to defeat them. To illustrate the point, I just went ahead and did the champion arrowhead HP challenge in AB solo using my mirage with Trailblazer stats (condi/expertise/toughness/vitality) and only pushing 1 and dodge. I still managed a little over 5k DPS and killed the champion in 2 minutes. Again, that's using a stat set with toughness/vitality on it and pushing only 1 and dodge.

This boss is manageable because it does, in fact, vary its mechanics based on what you do. You can manipulate its behavior. If you stand at melee range near its back leg it will try to roll over you. This attack is easily evaded and does less damage than its bite or stomp attacks. If you move too close to its head it will try to turn and bite you. If you go to range it will try to face you and use the front/back stomp which sends out a wave in a cone that is capable of 1-shotting a lot of builds.

Other bosses have phase changes like dungeon bosses do. For instance, the avatar of Balthazar raises his sword and burns the entire area at 50% health. If you don't retreat to a ledge via bounce mushroom or exit the room using the exalted mark you die. The vampire broodmother in VB does a crazy life draining attack at 20% health. You have to line of sight or use blocks/evades/invulns to avoid getting hit by it for a few seconds or she heals rapidly.

There are bosses that don't change their behavior either at a certain health threshold or in reaction to what players do, but it's not accurate to say that all of them are this way or that they take "8+ minutes" to defeat.

Anyway, you're welcome to your own opinion (but not your own facts!). Personally, I'm of the opinion that they should leave it as is. I like fighting these guys and helping other players to fight them (leading HP trains, etc.) and there is no shortage of players in HoT and never has been. If you need help, it's easy to find.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

Anyway, you're welcome to your own opinion (but not your own facts!). Personally, I'm of the opinion that they should leave it as is. I like fighting these guys and helping other players to fight them (leading HP trains, etc.) and there is no shortage of players in HoT and never has been. If you need help, it's easy to find.

This, is wrong. Depending on the time zone of the player HoT maps can be empty. ive spent well over an hour with a tag up asking for help(both in map chat and in LFG) in Auric Basin not during the meta to do some of the HPs with champions out in that zone, even longer in other zones, tangled depths was the worst, followed by ,VB and Dragon Stand as the easiest one. If there is one player and one player only at those hero points it should be a veteran(obviously my opinion, but doing map completion on my ele was incredibly painful due to not being able to solo them and not being able to get help.)

I've done that HP on a number of toons, and have only occasionally had any difficulty. 1) you can ask for help, especially if one of the dailies is events in Malchor's Leap; 2) you can try kiting the boss away and sneaking back to the HP (using pets, etc.); 3) you can wait until someone else draws the boss off or kills it and just walk in. 90% of the time one of these three is a viable approach. Very rarely you'll have to pass on that HP for the time being. Good thing there's more HPs than you can possibly ever use.

@"Biff.5312" said:I've done that HP on a number of toons, and have only occasionally had any difficulty. 1) you can ask for help, especially if one of the dailies is events in Malchor's Leap; 2) you can try kiting the boss away and sneaking back to the HP (using pets, etc.); 3) you can wait until someone else draws the boss off or kills it and just walk in. 90% of the time one of these three is a viable approach. Very rarely you'll have to pass on that HP for the time being. Good thing there's more HPs than you can possibly ever use.

Kiting with "pets etc" is only available to some classes "waiting until someone else kills it and then grabbing it" is exactly what I was complaining about and asking for help only works if there are people willing to help plus that's also exactly what I was complaining about in the first place. - Not being able to do these things solo...