This class still don't have a viable WvW large scale build...AFTER 6 YEARS! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

This class still don't have a viable WvW large scale build...AFTER 6 YEARS!

kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭

We all know, rangers always struggled to find a place inside WvW squads. This is mainly a "class design" fault. Here is why:
1) PETS
- They die fast to AoE damage;
- They can't dodge through AoE bombs;
- There are no skills that revives them;
- Once dead, they have 60 seconds cooldown;
- Most F2 have long cast times / are useless in a large scale fight;
- 90% of pet's attacks are single target.

2) WEAPONS
- Most ranger weapons are hard countered by reflects and projectile destruction abilities;
- Most ranger weapons are single-target;
- Ranger weapons lack AoE support (even Druid staff is worse than Guardian staff);
- No useful Combo Fields and only one Blast Finisher on warhorn (2 if you run druid and use a staff).

3) SKILLS
- SHOUTS -
- Decent AoE utilities, but they really fall down when facing more than 10 opponents;
- If the pet is dead, their effect is drastically reduced (if you are not playing soulbeast, of course).
- SIGNETS -
- Signet of Renewal is the only signet that support allies. Insta-dead for your pet;
- They are selfish and, in most cases, mandatory (Signet of Stone);
- Cooldowns are a bit too long if not running Brutish Seals.
- SPIRITS -
- They istantly die to everything;
- Very long cooldowns.
- TRAPS -
- Condi based;
- Low damage;
- Lack of stun-breaks, condition clears, or some sort of defensive utilities.
- SURVIVAL -
- Good utilities, but super-selfish skills;
- Outside Muddy Terrain, literally zero AoE effects.
- GLYPHS -
- They don't offer enough support to both the druid and his allies;
- Cooldowns are a bit too long if not running Verdant Etching.
- STANCES -
- Not enough duration to allies.

Do the ranger community have some suggestions to make this class atleast viable (and most importantly not hated) in wvw zerg fights?

<1

Comments

  • Krispera.5087Krispera.5087 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2019

    @kappa.2036 said:
    Do the ranger community have some suggestions to make this class atleast viable (and most importantly not hated) in wvw zerg fights?

    Pets :

    • Put the 95% reduction of PvE if not main target in WvW. Do the same reduction for condition damage.
    • Less punishing Pet death. If SBeast can ''rez'' a pet by merging, then buff the Pet death to 15 secs instead of 45 secs.

    Traps :

    • Throwing Traps
    • Buff : Frost Trap (Damage (4x): 532 (2.0)) at more or less damage of Procession of Blades (Damage (10x): 1,460 (5.5)).

    Soulbeast :

    • BMode Jacaranda : Bigger radius and higher damage. Call Lightning (133 (0.5)) is on a longer cooldown than Lava Font (Damage: 212 (0.525)) and Symbol of Punishment (Symbol Damage: 183 (0.5) + Impacts Damage: 121 (0.33)), but do less damage. Reduce casting and after cast (It's so slow and clunky), both other skills are nearly instant. What's up with that ?
    • Jacaranda pet : Lasting AoE field. How it works right now : It targets enemy, doesn't follow the target and doesn't target new ones. If the target moves away of the ''field'', the lightning doesn't hit other new targets.
    • Pack Alpha trait : Should affect BMode skills cooldown reduction. It doesn't need to reduce Archetype skill (F3).

    If we could use Jacaranda and Throwing Traps as main AoEs in WvW, it would help a lot.

  • Fluffball.8307Fluffball.8307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TorontoTech.4937 said:
    I guess it depends on your definition of the word "viable."

    Best advice is to play the game however the heck you want. Ignore so-called "best builds" and create a character and playstyle that works for you. Ignore crybabies who tell you that you're playing the class wrong. What business of theirs is it how YOU play your variation of a Ranger? If your playstyle works for you, and you're having fun, they can suck it. I'd say that's the more important thing.

    Also... Yeah. Pets die fast when surrounded by groups of enemies or when hit by large amounts of AoE damage. It's the same in PvE. That's why you have 2 of them that you can cycle through.

    WvW with my ranger is an enjoyable experience. End of story.

    It's that for sure, but also there are multiple very effective zerg WvW builds. No we're never going to be a guardian that is the staple of rando zergs, but rangers can absolutely be a part of WvW, even in GvGs.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are two main problems with making Ranger Viable in Zerg Fights.

    1. You would have to change sooooo much with Ranger.

    2. Ranger has to compete against other classes for Squad space.

    If you would go the Support role, you would make druide compete with:

    Firebrand
    Heal Rev
    Medi Scrapper
    Heal Tempest

    Good luck on this front.

    For the dmg role:
    Scourge
    Weaver
    Hammer Rev

    Good luck with the only one „good“ Zerg Weapon being Warhorn.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with DanAlcedo here, that's why there are only 3 builds accepted in zergs:
    Hybrid scourge
    Support firebrand
    Dps herald.

    First and foremost: Anet has to remove the ability to revive downed players with the action button. While F to ress is in game there will not be any reason to change the meta as those builds are a blunt hammer which works very well with blunt mechanics.

    Then Anet needs to nerf those builds i they are still overperfoming.

    But without the first step here is no change in the classes it will move the toxic meta.

    Anything other than that: Ranger doesn't need too much changed.

    • Spirits to follow you and ranged aoe. Increase and balance the actives effects in exchange to be released.
    • Stances to last full duration to allies.
    • Druid to transform conditions to regeneration and protection (inversed role to the scourge) .
  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    I agree with DanAlcedo here, that's why there are only 3 builds accepted in zergs:
    Hybrid scourge
    Support firebrand
    Dps herald.

    First and foremost: Anet has to remove the ability to revive downed players with the action button. While F to ress is in game there will not be any reason to change the meta as those builds are a blunt hammer which works very well with blunt mechanics.

    Then Anet needs to nerf those builds i they are still overperfoming.

    But without the first step here is no change in the classes it will move the toxic meta.

    Anything other than that: Ranger doesn't need too much changed.

    • Spirits to follow you and ranged aoe. Increase and balance the actives effects in exchange to be released.
    • Stances to last full duration to allies.
    • Druid to transform conditions to regeneration and protection (inversed role to the scourge) .

    You know.... i thought about Soulbeast.

    Technically it is almost identical to Hammer Rev.

    Both have Utility Skills with the main purpose of buffing your allies.

    (And Stances are amazing)

    Both only use minimal traits for support and the rest for dmg increase.

    Both have an offensive Aura.
    Spotter/Assasins Presence

    Both would run a mix of Marauder/Berzerker/Valkyrie gear.

    The ONLY difference between Soulbeast and Hammer Herold are the weapons.

    Rev Hammer is Amazing in zergfights.

    Ranget has no usefull weapon for zerging.

    Believe me. If Soulbeast had Revs Hammer.... ohhh boy would he be meta!

    The only way for Ranger to become Meta would be to give Ranger an Ranged AoE Weapon thats not based on Projectiles.

  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019

    Remove downed state - as it was for that event week. It would fix so much kitten in WvW and also make Ranger super viable for zergs.
    IMO there are 3 builds I currently use in WvW zergs (I also command on one with great success) that are viable.
    1. Axe axe + GS with commander gear - great sustain with decent damage
    2. Pure glass pew pew LB + axe/horn and eagle soulbeast with sic em - 100-0% people, with signet and #5 horn a lot of unblockable.
    3. Yolo mid enemy zerg CC soulbeast - 2x muddy, 1x entangle, un-meld with wolf/drakehound for fear/immo, with reaper runes 1s+ AOE chill.

    1. is my prefered and go-to build, it just does it all really, can blob, can 1v1 etc - jack of all trades hard countered by few.
    2. needs great positioning and awareness
    3. is just fun af specially if your zerg knows what you're doing - I've made so many people stand mid bomb with this build that it's silly. But you don't do much damage and it's very specific. Also works when you tag on this build as your zerg usually bombs on tag.
  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Rev Hammer is Amazing in zergfights.

    Ranget has no usefull weapon for zerging.

    Believe me. If Soulbeast had Revs Hammer.... ohhh boy would he be meta!

    The only way for Ranger to become Meta would be to give Ranger an Ranged AoE Weapon thats not based on Projectiles.

    Yep i fully agree with you.
    Stances are "better" than herald auras, if they could share the full duration. They provide significant effects in exchange shorter duration.

    About the weapon, I personally i would not change longbow as it's already perfect.
    I would focus on the shortbow, return the range back to 1200 units and provide the weapon with an splash effect (like the harpoon gun) giving the reduced damage and condi duration in the additional targets. Conditions applied by the ranger are short duration (3 seconds bleeding base at best) so it should not impact the condition application significatively, but allowing the ranger to collaborate to the group dps.

    That with ranged AoE from mobile spirits would be enough for the ranger to have a possible spot in squads.

    I explained the changes in the Conditon ranger link in my signature (so it doesn't get lost like many other threads with brilliant ideas) .

  • kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭

    @Krispera.5087 said:
    Pets :

    • Put the 95% reduction of PvE if not main target in WvW. Do the same reduction for condition damage.
    • Less punishing Pet death. If SBeast can ''rez'' a pet by merging, then buff the Pet death to 15 secs instead of 45 secs.

    Reducing pet cooldown on death is probably the best change, it would help a lot to improve the overall class efficiency. I think we need some ways to revive our pets, like a trait that "revives your pet when using an healing skill" or healing skills that directly revives the pet.

    @Krispera.5087 said:
    Traps :

    • Throwing Traps
    • Buff : Frost Trap (Damage (4x): 532 (2.0)) at more or less damage of Procession of Blades (Damage (10x): 1,460 (5.5)).

    Soulbeast :

    • BMode Jacaranda : Bigger radius and higher damage. Call Lightning (133 (0.5)) is on a longer cooldown than Lava Font (Damage: 212 (0.525)) and Symbol of Punishment (Symbol Damage: 183 (0.5) + Impacts Damage: 121 (0.33)), but do less damage. Reduce casting and after cast (It's so slow and clunky), both other skills are nearly instant. What's up with that ?
    • Jacaranda pet : Lasting AoE field. How it works right now : It targets enemy, doesn't follow the target and doesn't target new ones. If the target moves away of the ''field'', the lightning doesn't hit other new targets.
    • Pack Alpha trait : Should affect BMode skills cooldown reduction. It doesn't need to reduce Archetype skill (F3).

    These are all nice suggestions, but i don't think these changes are enough to bring a spot in a squad.

  • kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭

    @TorontoTech.4937 said:
    I guess it depends on your definition of the word "viable."

    Best advice is to play the game however the heck you want. Ignore so-called "best builds" and create a character and playstyle that works for you. Ignore crybabies who tell you that you're playing the class wrong. What business of theirs is it how YOU play your variation of a Ranger? If your playstyle works for you, and you're having fun, they can suck it. I'd say that's the more important thing.

    Also... Yeah. Pets die fast when surrounded by groups of enemies or when hit by large amounts of AoE damage. It's the same in PvE. That's why you have 2 of them that you can cycle through.

    WvW with my ranger is an enjoyable experience. End of story.

    For "viable" i mean "desiderable", "useful". Of course you can play the ranger the way you like...but this can also be applied to all classes. You could play...a full signet warrior, a necro minionmaster, a spirit weapons guardian, or healing thief, so? You are useless if you play like that, that's it. You can enjoy it, but you are useless. I'm not saying that YOU are playing a stupid or useless build. I'm saying that your statement does not make sense in this context. The topic is about "how to bring ranger in the meta", not "how much i enjoy pewpew-ing in wvw on my own".

  • kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    Anything other than that: Ranger doesn't need too much changed.

    • Spirits to follow you and ranged aoe. Increase and balance the actives effects in exchange to be released.
    • Stances to last full duration to allies.
    • Druid to transform conditions to regeneration and protection (inversed role to the scourge) .

    Spirits die by a single AoE/autoattack. They would istantly die - especially in tight spaces, and also their cast time is too long. I think they should become like post-patch gyros, untargettable. In wvw, atleast. I fully agree on stances and druid abilities.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019

    @kappa.2036 said:
    Spirits die by a single AoE/autoattack. They would istantly die - especially in tight spaces, and also their cast time is too long.

    That's my idea of counter-play to all the benefits they may bring if executed this way, you can kill them easily.

    • First to reduce the visual noise to change the models to wisps, similar to the wisp from the Druid staff "Astral Wisp".
    • Being floating balls they don't need pathing, they can ignore terrain all toghether (no significative load in the server = no lag ).
    • Ranged AoE for Actives: this is very important as you very well explained. Having them close to you would kill them quite easily if you are in melee. You have that oportunity where you send them to a location to cast the active and as such being "released" ( the spirit wisp dissapear and the skill goes on CD )
    • Having them with you means better survivavility, as being as druid you may heal them. Other specs could use other means like regeneration and other boons or healing pets.
    • Having them close also means body blocking which for core ranger and soulbeast it is a mechanic we should be promoting to use, as we already have the exceptional oportunity to do it so.

    I mean is not the perfect solution but i like the idea of Spirits with health pools wich can be killed.
    Why is that? Because having that counterplay it is supposedly to make them with impactfull passives and actives. The systems team does not see it like this but right now the actives neither the passives (remember you have an 10 seconds ICD between single applications) and consecuentaly they are dooming the skills even before the can be used. I explored the Natural Magic traitline and the changes to the spirits in my signature with some changes IMO would be good to make the ranger to have some uses in zergs.

    I mean the instant teleport may be fine, but i seriously doubt it as we don't have actual means to keep them alive at 5000 units. And without the grandmaster trait:

    • Normal spirits will die in 39 seconds.
    • Elite spirit will die in 33 seconds.

    This concept is important to get it ingrained in our minds. We will not be teleporting the spirits to us on CD because it means we can't use the actives when needed and the spirits will last less than a minute without constant healing.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    Passive Buff
    Team mascots: the pet gets a 95% reduction in damage when the ranger is part of a group of over 20 people.
    Bounce: Make it to hit 3 targets (wvw only)
    Dolyack, Griffon and OWP all have unique and shareable effects, soulbeast solved the pet problem would not have trouble getting meta zerg builds.

  • GUFF.5692GUFF.5692 Member ✭✭

    @kappa.2036 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    Anything other than that: Ranger doesn't need too much changed.

    • Spirits to follow you and ranged aoe. Increase and balance the actives effects in exchange to be released.
    • Stances to last full duration to allies.
    • Druid to transform conditions to regeneration and protection (inversed role to the scourge) .

    Spirits die by a single AoE/autoattack. They would istantly die - especially in tight spaces, and also their cast time is too long. I think they should become like post-patch gyros, untargettable. In wvw, atleast. I fully agree on stances and druid abilities.

    Yes, I was seriously scratching my head on why the devs did not make spirits the same as the new gyros. The new changes to spirits will not be close to enough.

  • felincyriac.5981felincyriac.5981 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe the devs like to keep that way? Not every class needs to be mesmer level viable at all levels of play.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    Maybe the devs like to keep that way? Not every class needs to be mesmer level viable at all levels of play.

    Fun Fact.

    Mesmer is also not Meta for Zerging.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭

    Idk about everyone else, but when I think ranger I don't think about constantly jumping into the thick of things in a zerg fest. Personally I picked up ranger because I like hunting down my quarry and wining small fights with my own tools. I like ranging out ahead or behind the team and gathering intel and doing solo/small team missions. I would rather them improve ranger roaming play than try to hack them into the zerging meta (not that their roaming needs that much improving).

    No longer playing the game due to PvP being abandon.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    SoulBeast would have been perfect for this, replaces the pets which are always going to be useless in Zergs, Stance sharing, and merging with your pet providing a crazy amount of versatile skills to help in several situations and a new weapon to fill our lack of ranged aoe.

    Instead stances sharing is a tiny duration of kind of meh effects, pet skills are almost all terrible apart from a few melee damage focused skills, the new weapon is the clunkiest melee weapon in the game and the entire spec is designed just to replace the much more fun Core Ranger condi dps build from pre PoF.

  • Shadelang.3012Shadelang.3012 Member ✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 Chrono is one of the top utility builds in WvW. It is also an increasingly popular driver build. Mesmer is also one of two pick classes capable of zerg diving effectively and safely in nearly full glass (the other being staff daredevil which you see alot in gvgs).

    Yeah you don't have random people running it. But a skilled chrono is ABSOLUTELY desirable. Even if its just 1.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From today on soulbeast is the apex predator in wvw smallscale, because mirage and deadeye got significant nerfs while soulbeast remained untouched.

    As long as anet does not fix that, it's nice to see that even you can't have everything.

  • kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    Idk about everyone else, but when I think ranger I don't think about constantly jumping into the thick of things in a zerg fest. Personally I picked up ranger because I like hunting down my quarry and wining small fights with my own tools. I like ranging out ahead or behind the team and gathering intel and doing solo/small team missions. I would rather them improve ranger roaming play than try to hack them into the zerging meta (not that their roaming needs that much improving).

    You like to hunt people down? Good. You like small fights? Good. But what will happen if someday you decide to go for big fights? You know what? You become useless. You become the one that people don't want in their squad. You become the one that people blame cause "There are too many rangers in this squad, we need firebrands!" or "Play something useful pls". You can try to be useful. You can also become very good at ranger. In reality, we all know the class is really sub-par to other classes in terms of Large Scale Fights. That's it. Even thieves and mesmers (which are generally roaming classes) have viable large-scale builds: staff daredevil - and chrono (like mentioned above). Those builds are maybe not meta, but can be useful and perform quite well in gvg or large-scale encounters.

  • kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Passive Buff
    Team mascots: the pet gets a 95% reduction in damage when the ranger is part of a group of over 20 people.
    Bounce: Make it to hit 3 targets (wvw only)
    Dolyack, Griffon and OWP all have unique and shareable effects, soulbeast solved the pet problem would not have trouble getting meta zerg builds.

    Stances are good, indeed. But even if we shared them with 100% duration to allies, the spec will still be not meta. Why? Because soulbeast does not have proper AoE weapons to fight.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019

    @kappa.2036 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    Idk about everyone else, but when I think ranger I don't think about constantly jumping into the thick of things in a zerg fest. Personally I picked up ranger because I like hunting down my quarry and wining small fights with my own tools. I like ranging out ahead or behind the team and gathering intel and doing solo/small team missions. I would rather them improve ranger roaming play than try to hack them into the zerging meta (not that their roaming needs that much improving).

    You like to hunt people down? Good. You like small fights? Good. But what will happen if someday you decide to go for big fights? You know what? You become useless. You become the one that people don't want in their squad. You become the one that people blame cause "There are too many rangers in this squad, we need firebrands!" or "Play something useful pls". You can try to be useful. You can also become very good at ranger. In reality, we all know the class is really sub-par to other classes in terms of Large Scale Fights. That's it. Even thieves and mesmers (which are generally roaming classes) have viable large-scale builds: staff daredevil - and chrono (like mentioned above). Those builds are maybe not meta, but can be useful and perform quite well in gvg or large-scale encounters.

    Um, that's not a problem at all. In fact, different classes have always been good at specific things and maybe not good at others; that's just a consequence of the concept of the class. The GOOD thing is that Anet recognizes this and hence, elite specs to fill the gaps.

    Now, I find it hard for anyone to seriously say they don't have a good way to contribute to zerg WvW on a given class at THIS stage of the game. I can imagine just from the concepts, that Ranger isn't OPTIMAL for that role, well just because like someone said ... ranger class isn't exactly a 'jump into the fray' kind of fighter, but to say you don't have a viable way to contribute? That's just sensational.

    It does go to the mentality of a player choosing a class. I mean, I didn't even have to play ranger to know it's probably one of those 'hunt down your prey' kind of classes ... so does seem a little unreasonable to complain it's not good at the other things you want it to be. You have class envy.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    Idk about everyone else, but when I think ranger I don't think about constantly jumping into the thick of things in a zerg fest. Personally I picked up ranger because I like hunting down my quarry and wining small fights with my own tools. I like ranging out ahead or behind the team and gathering intel and doing solo/small team missions. I would rather them improve ranger roaming play than try to hack them into the zerging meta (not that their roaming needs that much improving).

    You like to hunt people down? Good. You like small fights? Good. But what will happen if someday you decide to go for big fights? You know what? You become useless. You become the one that people don't want in their squad. You become the one that people blame cause "There are too many rangers in this squad, we need firebrands!" or "Play something useful pls". You can try to be useful. You can also become very good at ranger. In reality, we all know the class is really sub-par to other classes in terms of Large Scale Fights. That's it. Even thieves and mesmers (which are generally roaming classes) have viable large-scale builds: staff daredevil - and chrono (like mentioned above). Those builds are maybe not meta, but can be useful and perform quite well in gvg or large-scale encounters.

    Um, that's not a problem at all. In fact, different classes have always been good at specific things and maybe not good at others; that's just a consequence of the concept of the class. The GOOD thing is that Anet recognizes this and hence, elite specs to fill the gaps.

    Now, I find it hard for anyone to seriously say they don't have a good way to contribute to zerg WvW on a given class at THIS stage of the game. I can imagine just from the concepts, that Ranger isn't OPTIMAL for that role, well just because like someone said ... ranger class isn't exactly a 'jump into the fray' kind of fighter, but to say you don't have a viable way to contribute? That's just sensational.

    It does go to the mentality of a player choosing a class. I mean, I didn't even have to play ranger to know it's probably one of those 'hunt down your prey' kind of classes ... so does seem a little unreasonable to complain it's not good at the other things you want it to be. You have class envy.

    Anet didn't fix anything with ranger specs in WvW.
    Druid is sub-par on defensive team support compared to firebrand, tempest and scrapper and Anet is unwilling to allow a proper stance sharing to allies with soulbeast and gave it a weapon to fit a claw/fang thematic rather than one that could expand its fight mechanics.
    This isn't sensational at all and OP is right, ranger has no viable role in groups and yet every other class has one. It can theoretically snipe a backline (weaver + rev hammer) but backlines are rare nowadays and when there is one, commander doesn't want ranger in squad because it doesn't bring anything to the group.
    Ranger design isn't to just be a hunter, it's way more versatile and can easily go into melee but currently whether you play range or melee you won't be useful to a group...

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    Idk about everyone else, but when I think ranger I don't think about constantly jumping into the thick of things in a zerg fest. Personally I picked up ranger because I like hunting down my quarry and wining small fights with my own tools. I like ranging out ahead or behind the team and gathering intel and doing solo/small team missions. I would rather them improve ranger roaming play than try to hack them into the zerging meta (not that their roaming needs that much improving).

    You like to hunt people down? Good. You like small fights? Good. But what will happen if someday you decide to go for big fights? You know what? You become useless. You become the one that people don't want in their squad. You become the one that people blame cause "There are too many rangers in this squad, we need firebrands!" or "Play something useful pls". You can try to be useful. You can also become very good at ranger. In reality, we all know the class is really sub-par to other classes in terms of Large Scale Fights. That's it. Even thieves and mesmers (which are generally roaming classes) have viable large-scale builds: staff daredevil - and chrono (like mentioned above). Those builds are maybe not meta, but can be useful and perform quite well in gvg or large-scale encounters.

    Um, that's not a problem at all. In fact, different classes have always been good at specific things and maybe not good at others; that's just a consequence of the concept of the class. The GOOD thing is that Anet recognizes this and hence, elite specs to fill the gaps.

    Now, I find it hard for anyone to seriously say they don't have a good way to contribute to zerg WvW on a given class at THIS stage of the game. I can imagine just from the concepts, that Ranger isn't OPTIMAL for that role, well just because like someone said ... ranger class isn't exactly a 'jump into the fray' kind of fighter, but to say you don't have a viable way to contribute? That's just sensational.

    It does go to the mentality of a player choosing a class. I mean, I didn't even have to play ranger to know it's probably one of those 'hunt down your prey' kind of classes ... so does seem a little unreasonable to complain it's not good at the other things you want it to be. You have class envy.

    Anet didn't fix anything with ranger specs in WvW.
    Druid is sub-par on defensive team support compared to firebrand, tempest and scrapper and Anet is unwilling to allow a proper stance sharing to allies with soulbeast and gave it a weapon to fit a claw/fang thematic rather than one that could expand its fight mechanics.
    This isn't sensational at all and OP is right, ranger has no viable role in groups and yet every other class has one. It can theoretically snipe a backline (weaver + rev hammer) but backlines are rare nowadays and when there is one, commander doesn't want ranger in squad because it doesn't bring anything to the group.
    Ranger design isn't to just be a hunter, it's way more versatile and can easily go into melee but currently whether you play range or melee you won't be useful to a group...

    ? No one said Anet fixed Ranger in WvW so I don't get your response to me. Just because Ranger can go into melee doesn't mean the concept of the hunter is violated. I mean, if the OP wants to do something exceptional in WvW and Ranger can't do it, he should look at other choices. Never in the history of this game has Anet guaranteed that some class can do exactly what any player wants to do with it while being exceptional doing it. I don't know what the OP wants to do and I don't know how Ranger doesn't do it, but I'm pretty sure whatever it is, SOME class in this game does and he has access to it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    Idk about everyone else, but when I think ranger I don't think about constantly jumping into the thick of things in a zerg fest. Personally I picked up ranger because I like hunting down my quarry and wining small fights with my own tools. I like ranging out ahead or behind the team and gathering intel and doing solo/small team missions. I would rather them improve ranger roaming play than try to hack them into the zerging meta (not that their roaming needs that much improving).

    You like to hunt people down? Good. You like small fights? Good. But what will happen if someday you decide to go for big fights? You know what? You become useless. You become the one that people don't want in their squad. You become the one that people blame cause "There are too many rangers in this squad, we need firebrands!" or "Play something useful pls". You can try to be useful. You can also become very good at ranger. In reality, we all know the class is really sub-par to other classes in terms of Large Scale Fights. That's it. Even thieves and mesmers (which are generally roaming classes) have viable large-scale builds: staff daredevil - and chrono (like mentioned above). Those builds are maybe not meta, but can be useful and perform quite well in gvg or large-scale encounters.

    Um, that's not a problem at all. In fact, different classes have always been good at specific things and maybe not good at others; that's just a consequence of the concept of the class. The GOOD thing is that Anet recognizes this and hence, elite specs to fill the gaps.

    Now, I find it hard for anyone to seriously say they don't have a good way to contribute to zerg WvW on a given class at THIS stage of the game. I can imagine just from the concepts, that Ranger isn't OPTIMAL for that role, well just because like someone said ... ranger class isn't exactly a 'jump into the fray' kind of fighter, but to say you don't have a viable way to contribute? That's just sensational.

    It does go to the mentality of a player choosing a class. I mean, I didn't even have to play ranger to know it's probably one of those 'hunt down your prey' kind of classes ... so does seem a little unreasonable to complain it's not good at the other things you want it to be. You have class envy.

    Anet didn't fix anything with ranger specs in WvW.
    Druid is sub-par on defensive team support compared to firebrand, tempest and scrapper and Anet is unwilling to allow a proper stance sharing to allies with soulbeast and gave it a weapon to fit a claw/fang thematic rather than one that could expand its fight mechanics.
    This isn't sensational at all and OP is right, ranger has no viable role in groups and yet every other class has one. It can theoretically snipe a backline (weaver + rev hammer) but backlines are rare nowadays and when there is one, commander doesn't want ranger in squad because it doesn't bring anything to the group.
    Ranger design isn't to just be a hunter, it's way more versatile and can easily go into melee but currently whether you play range or melee you won't be useful to a group...

    ? No one said Anet fixed Ranger in WvW so I don't get your response to me. Just because Ranger can go into melee doesn't mean the concept of the hunter is violated. I mean, if the OP wants to do something exceptional in WvW and Ranger can't do it, he should look at other choices. Never in the history of this game has Anet guaranteed that some class can do exactly what any player wants to do with it while being exceptional doing it. I don't know what the OP wants to do and I don't know how Ranger doesn't do it, but I'm pretty sure whatever it is, SOME class in this game does and he has access to it.

    By "fixing" i meant "specs filling the gaps" of core ranger design for teamplay in WvW.
    Any other class has a viable (not even talking about meta or exceptional) option to play in every compartment of the game between its 2 specs but not ranger.
    Sure he can play something else but Anet should do something to improve ranger viability in groups as it already possesses the mechanics but lacks the performance.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:

    @Zexanima.7851 said:
    Idk about everyone else, but when I think ranger I don't think about constantly jumping into the thick of things in a zerg fest. Personally I picked up ranger because I like hunting down my quarry and wining small fights with my own tools. I like ranging out ahead or behind the team and gathering intel and doing solo/small team missions. I would rather them improve ranger roaming play than try to hack them into the zerging meta (not that their roaming needs that much improving).

    You like to hunt people down? Good. You like small fights? Good. But what will happen if someday you decide to go for big fights? You know what? You become useless. You become the one that people don't want in their squad. You become the one that people blame cause "There are too many rangers in this squad, we need firebrands!" or "Play something useful pls". You can try to be useful. You can also become very good at ranger. In reality, we all know the class is really sub-par to other classes in terms of Large Scale Fights. That's it. Even thieves and mesmers (which are generally roaming classes) have viable large-scale builds: staff daredevil - and chrono (like mentioned above). Those builds are maybe not meta, but can be useful and perform quite well in gvg or large-scale encounters.

    Um, that's not a problem at all. In fact, different classes have always been good at specific things and maybe not good at others; that's just a consequence of the concept of the class. The GOOD thing is that Anet recognizes this and hence, elite specs to fill the gaps.

    Now, I find it hard for anyone to seriously say they don't have a good way to contribute to zerg WvW on a given class at THIS stage of the game. I can imagine just from the concepts, that Ranger isn't OPTIMAL for that role, well just because like someone said ... ranger class isn't exactly a 'jump into the fray' kind of fighter, but to say you don't have a viable way to contribute? That's just sensational.

    It does go to the mentality of a player choosing a class. I mean, I didn't even have to play ranger to know it's probably one of those 'hunt down your prey' kind of classes ... so does seem a little unreasonable to complain it's not good at the other things you want it to be. You have class envy.

    Anet didn't fix anything with ranger specs in WvW.
    Druid is sub-par on defensive team support compared to firebrand, tempest and scrapper and Anet is unwilling to allow a proper stance sharing to allies with soulbeast and gave it a weapon to fit a claw/fang thematic rather than one that could expand its fight mechanics.
    This isn't sensational at all and OP is right, ranger has no viable role in groups and yet every other class has one. It can theoretically snipe a backline (weaver + rev hammer) but backlines are rare nowadays and when there is one, commander doesn't want ranger in squad because it doesn't bring anything to the group.
    Ranger design isn't to just be a hunter, it's way more versatile and can easily go into melee but currently whether you play range or melee you won't be useful to a group...

    ? No one said Anet fixed Ranger in WvW so I don't get your response to me. Just because Ranger can go into melee doesn't mean the concept of the hunter is violated. I mean, if the OP wants to do something exceptional in WvW and Ranger can't do it, he should look at other choices. Never in the history of this game has Anet guaranteed that some class can do exactly what any player wants to do with it while being exceptional doing it. I don't know what the OP wants to do and I don't know how Ranger doesn't do it, but I'm pretty sure whatever it is, SOME class in this game does and he has access to it.

    By "fixing" i meant "specs filling the gaps" of core ranger design for teamplay in WvW.
    Any other class has a viable (not even talking about meta or exceptional) option to play in every compartment of the game between its 2 specs but not ranger.
    Sure he can play something else but Anet should do something to improve ranger viability in groups as it already possesses the mechanics but lacks the performance.

    All of this is just very vague. It's really easy to wave our hands, be vague and claim something isn't right that isn't well defined to begin with.

    What do you mean by viable? You want a whole bunch of team support effects? I think if we want Anet to take this seriously, what's necessary is to show how Druid doesn't provide a 'viable' build for this mode. It's pretty hard to believe that such an effective team support class for PVE can't be tailored into an at least viable one in WvW.

    The OP claims the lack of a viable WvW zerg build is a fundamental class design problem ... isn't any way to fix that without redefining the whole class. No way that's going to happen just for this. If the class concept itself is fundamentally flawed, a few changes to some skills or pets isn't going to fix it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭

    As long as I can kill several targets without dying while hanging in/around a zerg, always run supplies (because I am fairly mobile), and pay attention to the commanders movements to get an idea of what we're doing (since they only communicate inside the squad or discord), I consider myself NOT a liability, which is good enough.

    We're plenty viable. If you want to look at classes that aren't viable for zergs, look at Thieves! They bring NOTHING to the zerg, but are great for supporting the zerg elsewhere by killing reinforcements, stragglers and the backline.

    ... Although I guess this is going to change the more people get the mount.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    When they first introduced druid, I thought we would be in CA as long as we want (imagine how my hopes were shattered). Maybe a longer CA mode would make at least druid viable as a healer for zergs.

    Apart from that ranger weapons suck at zergs and pet is a hinderance for several occasions. Rangers can be viable for zergs, but they will always be replaced by proper zerg professions i guess.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2019

    @alain.1659 said:
    When they first introduced druid, I thought we would be in CA as long as we want (imagine how my hopes were shattered). Maybe a longer CA mode would make at least druid viable as a healer for zergs.

    Apart from that ranger weapons suck at zergs and pet is a hinderance for several occasions. Rangers can be viable for zergs, but they will always be replaced by proper zerg professions i guess.

    You know what? Sometimes i don't understand why the teams involve d in the balance changes do what they do without asking for feedback first.

    I would personally feel like i wasted my life if my work would have had the reception this last balance had about the ranger (at least) . If I spent hours or days developing something without asking for feedback first and on my own volition and then the result is something the users don't use because they don't need it or don't enjoy using it it would leave a sad feeling in my guts.

    At my work i like to know the changes i made in the programs are useful and the user enjoys and make use of them. But in my case there is a development guidelines which include all the service lifecycle and that includes the design and all the previous steps to directly writing the code. What the user needs and constant feedback is very important for a healthy process and i can't see that done effectively here.

    Seriously i don't get it.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭

    Rangers are more roamer than zergling. They excel at small scale fights as opposed to zergs. More experienced players can also serve as scouts and you might get a spot for that purpose.

    That said you don't need a spot in the commanders squad to follow them around.

    That's typically reserved for getting classes that buff and heal and forcing priority on the core of the zerg which is important. It's not personal or them being elitist. It's what they need to do.

    No self-respecting zerg turns away bodies/supply. They need plenty of both. If you feel like following a tag around, just do it. Good commanders typically call out respawns and map changes but you can just pay attention to the map to see where they get too.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @kappa.2036 said:
    We all know, rangers always struggled to find a place inside WvW squads. This is mainly a "class design" fault. Here is why:
    1) PETS
    - They die fast to AoE damage;
    - They can't dodge through AoE bombs;
    - There are no skills that revives them;
    - Once dead, they have 60 seconds cooldown;
    - Most F2 have long cast times / are useless in a large scale fight;
    - 90% of pet's attacks are single target.

    2) WEAPONS
    - Most ranger weapons are hard countered by reflects and projectile destruction abilities;
    - Most ranger weapons are single-target;
    - Ranger weapons lack AoE support (even Druid staff is worse than Guardian staff);
    - No useful Combo Fields and only one Blast Finisher on warhorn (2 if you run druid and use a staff).

    3) SKILLS
    - SHOUTS -
    - Decent AoE utilities, but they really fall down when facing more than 10 opponents;
    - If the pet is dead, their effect is drastically reduced (if you are not playing soulbeast, of course).
    - SIGNETS -
    - Signet of Renewal is the only signet that support allies. Insta-dead for your pet;
    - They are selfish and, in most cases, mandatory (Signet of Stone);
    - Cooldowns are a bit too long if not running Brutish Seals.
    - SPIRITS -
    - They istantly die to everything;
    - Very long cooldowns.
    - TRAPS -
    - Condi based;
    - Low damage;
    - Lack of stun-breaks, condition clears, or some sort of defensive utilities.
    - SURVIVAL -
    - Good utilities, but super-selfish skills;
    - Outside Muddy Terrain, literally zero AoE effects.
    - GLYPHS -
    - They don't offer enough support to both the druid and his allies;
    - Cooldowns are a bit too long if not running Verdant Etching.
    - STANCES -
    - Not enough duration to allies.

    Do the ranger community have some suggestions to make this class atleast viable (and most importantly not hated) in wvw zerg fights?

    Hi. Not all classes have viable meta builds in wvw large scale zerg fights. At least, soulbeast is ( imo ) the best roaming spec in the game. You can kill all specs except the ones that can live forever like scrapper. And you can do that while running a high dps build :)

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:
    Hi. Not all classes have viable meta builds in wvw large scale zerg fights. At least, soulbeast is ( imo ) the best roaming spec in the game. You can kill all specs except the ones that can live forever like scrapper. And you can do that while running a high dps build :)

    Best roamers (as duelling class ) are mirage and thief, followed by soulbeast and revenant.

    Soulbeast is not specially great in wvw, in PvP the pewpew soulbeast is a thing because the defenses are very limited there. Still ranger pewpew is only viable gold or lower, i see almost no soulbeast in plat or higher.

    All classes should have a place in roaming AND squads. What you say is something toxic which justifies the commanders in wvw insulting rangers because they decided to play with that class.

    Thinking about how to make the ranger more viable (not desirable thou) in zergs i would start with:

    • Reduce the CD in barrage to 20 base.
    • Double the base healing for Invigorating bond.
    • Reduce the CD for Allies Aid
    • Leader of the pack to increased shared duration to the 100% to allies.
    • I would reduce duration of Moa Stance.

    I would try with those simple changes, are just numbers it should be easy enough. And see how it impacts the gamemodes, if it's makes rangers easier to be accepted in wvw.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2019

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    Hi. Not all classes have viable meta builds in wvw large scale zerg fights. At least, soulbeast is ( imo ) the best roaming spec in the game. You can kill all specs except the ones that can live forever like scrapper. And you can do that while running a high dps build :)

    Best roamers (as duelling class ) are mirage and thief, followed by soulbeast and revenant.

    Soulbeast is not specially great in wvw, in PvP the pewpew soulbeast is a thing because the defenses are very limited there. Still ranger pewpew is only viable gold or lower, i see almost no soulbeast in plat or higher.

    All classes should have a place in roaming AND squads. What you say is something toxic which justifies the commanders in wvw insulting rangers because they decided to play with that class.

    Thinking about how to make the ranger more viable (not desirable thou) in zergs i would start with:

    • Reduce the CD in barrage to 20 base.
    • Double the base healing for Invigorating bond.
    • Reduce the CD for Allies Aid
    • Leader of the pack to increased shared duration to the 100% to allies.
    • I would reduce duration of Moa Stance.

    I would try with those simple changes, are just numbers it should be easy enough. And see how it impacts the gamemodes, if it's makes rangers easier to be accepted in wvw.

    I can easily achieve t2 plat rank but I've stopped playing spvp. I haven't lost to a mirage in forever. Not thief either. The mirage nerfs destroyed their chances to win vs soulbeast. I'm not being toxic. Ofc not everyone can get to my level but just because of that doesn't mean ranger is bad class. It takes a while to master but when you do you're practically unbeatable 1v1 and you have pretty much 2nd best mobility in game, sharing 2nd place with mirage.

    Also are you seriously proposing thief should have viable zerg build too? You're delusional. That's not at ALL the role a thief should play. Sure I agree they should turn down the reflect spam, but I don't believe they should do anything else.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:
    Also are you seriously proposing thief should have viable zerg build too? You're delusional. That's not at ALL the role a thief should play. Sure I agree they should turn down the reflect spam, but I don't believe they should do anything else.

    Dont trust boonbeast to stay forever, right now scrapper has got the spotlight but as soon as it get balanced players will turn their head towards that build, it is still boring to play with and against.

    Actually thief has a pseudo-build he can play in zergs with DD and vault spam. And yes, i think thief should have a build in any of it's specialisations so it can play in a zerg even if it is a niche build, like medic scrapper. Even if it has to sacrifice other utilities to get it done.

    Bunker scrapper maybe obnoxious in PvP but in WvW is a very welcome addition to medium classes.

    I don't think nerfing the reflects would do anything, The problem is not the amount of reflects, is the large scale combat. The same as i don't think ranger should be focused in LB for zerging. It would be good to have more access to barrage so it could have some uses to clean siege from walls, but i don't think that's should be the best zerg weapon. It is good enough for roaming already.
    However it just need to be able to swap pets in beastmode to trigger lesser clarion bond on self. And that should be enough if we mix it with the rest of the traits to have good enough coverage with the LB.

    Ranger has an amazing set of options wich could be empowered to find a niche space in any squad:

    • Spirits unbound allowed the ranger to bring the specific buffs with him. The actual implementation is not good enough to allow them to be used in any competitive scenario.
    • The old trapper expertise allowed the ranger to throw traps and as such have some ranged AoE at 600.

    As such if ranger would be to get better traps (for damage or effects ) and ranged aoe spirits actives would make the ranger less despised in squad comps. If core would be to get fixed probably soulbeast and druid would find a niche spot with minimal effort.

    Fixing both issues: more meaningful traps and ranged spirit actives would open two builds for the ranger as backline or second wave (i like to call that to the melee which enters right behind the commander but not at the same time and usually shift between ranged and melee) depending on how those effects are implemented. Indeed nerfing the already meaningless effects from the spirits as they did with the sun one is not an step in the good direction.

    Some love to the pets would be great also, and i personaly i would not mind if in pvp and wvw we have a different set of better with skills better suited to the gamemode. I personally dont need 30 different pets if i can only use 5. With this i understand changing old pets it may be too much, but forbids them to just remake the pets one at a time so they are rewritten using the new technologies? Simply to see every now and then a message like "we reworked the eagle pet" would a very welcome news.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    Also are you seriously proposing thief should have viable zerg build too? You're delusional. That's not at ALL the role a thief should play. Sure I agree they should turn down the reflect spam, but I don't believe they should do anything else.

    Dont trust boonbeast to stay forever, right now scrapper has got the spotlight but as soon as it get balanced players will turn their head towards that build, it is still boring to play with and against.

    Actually thief has a pseudo-build he can play in zergs with DD and vault spam. And yes, i think thief should have a build in any of it's specialisations so it can play in a zerg even if it is a niche build, like medic scrapper. Even if it has to sacrifice other utilities to get it done.

    Bunker scrapper maybe obnoxious in PvP but in WvW is a very welcome addition to medium classes.

    I don't think nerfing the reflects would do anything, The problem is not the amount of reflects, is the large scale combat. The same as i don't think ranger should be focused in LB for zerging. It would be good to have more access to barrage so it could have some uses to clean siege from walls, but i don't think that's should be the best zerg weapon. It is good enough for roaming already.
    However it just need to be able to swap pets in beastmode to trigger lesser clarion bond on self. And that should be enough if we mix it with the rest of the traits to have good enough coverage with the LB.

    Ranger has an amazing set of options wich could be empowered to find a niche space in any squad:

    • Spirits unbound allowed the ranger to bring the specific buffs with him. The actual implementation is not good enough to allow them to be used in any competitive scenario.
    • The old trapper expertise allowed the ranger to throw traps and as such have some ranged AoE at 600.

    As such if ranger would be to get better traps (for damage or effects ) and ranged aoe spirits actives would make the ranger less despised in squad comps. If core would be to get fixed probably soulbeast and druid would find a niche spot with minimal effort.

    Fixing both issues: more meaningful traps and ranged spirit actives would open two builds for the ranger as backline or second wave (i like to call that to the melee which enters right behind the commander but not at the same time and usually shift between ranged and melee) depending on how those effects are implemented. Indeed nerfing the already meaningless effects from the spirits as they did with the sun one is not an step in the good direction.

    Some love to the pets would be great also, and i personaly i would not mind if in pvp and wvw we have a different set of better with skills better suited to the gamemode. I personally dont need 30 different pets if i can only use 5. With this i understand changing old pets it may be too much, but forbids them to just remake the pets one at a time so they are rewritten using the new technologies? Simply to see every now and then a message like "we reworked the eagle pet" would a very welcome news.

    This sounds great. Sure. But for me personally I don't really care except for barrage cool down. I kinda like the fact you can't swap pets in beast mode. It gives a clear moment of weakness. As for spirits etc yea that would be nice I guess. But again you don't been to play boon beast to do well on ranger lol. Lb / gs is great for most things. Boonbeast with siamoth is good in spvp but weak in wvw.

  • kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭

    Everyone knows that ranger is good at roaming. But this thread is not about roaming. So people, just stop claiming that you can kill everything with your longbow/greatsword build because (1)This is not the right thread (2)Nobody cares how many people you are able to oneshot-pewpew from 1500 range (3)If you think rangers can only have ranged dps roles you never understand the potential of this class.

  • kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    Ranger has an amazing set of options wich could be empowered to find a niche space in any squad:

    • Spirits unbound allowed the ranger to bring the specific buffs with him. The actual implementation is not good enough to allow them to be used in any competitive scenario.
    • The old trapper expertise allowed the ranger to throw traps and as such have some ranged AoE at 600.

    As such if ranger would be to get better traps (for damage or effects ) and ranged aoe spirits actives would make the ranger less despised in squad comps. If core would be to get fixed probably soulbeast and druid would find a niche spot with minimal effort.

    Fixing both issues: more meaningful traps and ranged spirit actives would open two builds for the ranger as backline or second wave (i like to call that to the melee which enters right behind the commander but not at the same time and usually shift between ranged and melee) depending on how those effects are implemented. Indeed nerfing the already meaningless effects from the spirits as they did with the sun one is not an step in the good direction.

    Some love to the pets would be great also, and i personaly i would not mind if in pvp and wvw we have a different set of better with skills better suited to the gamemode. I personally dont need 30 different pets if i can only use 5. With this i understand changing old pets it may be too much, but forbids them to just remake the pets one at a time so they are rewritten using the new technologies? Simply to see every now and then a message like "we reworked the eagle pet" would a very welcome news.

    Agree, both Spirits and traps should be looked at. Both of these skill-types grant AoE effects, but they are not viable in WvW zergs. I mean, necros can just throw all their wells in a specific location, deal loads of damage and corrupt boons...and we need to go melee to place some condi-based traps? Spirits are just immovable buffing minions. Maybe good in pve, just terrible in any other game-mode.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @kappa.2036 said:
    Everyone knows that ranger is good at roaming. But this thread is not about roaming. So people, just stop claiming that you can kill everything with your longbow/greatsword build because (1)This is not the right thread (2)Nobody cares how many people you are able to oneshot-pewpew from 1500 range (3)If you think rangers can only have ranged dps roles you never understand the potential of this class.

    No but I'd understand the problem if ranger didn't have any viable specs in wvw at all. .. but you can do roaming and smallscale fights just fine. I don't think we should expect every class to have a viable build for every game mode. So you want to have:
    Pve viability open world
    Pve raids
    Pvp conquest
    Wvw roamer/smallscale/solo
    Wvw zerg fighter...

    I mean do you realize what kinda absurd thing that is to ask for?

    Ranger already has pvp conquest, pve open world, raids (I think) and wvw roaming covered. I don't think ranger is meant to be a front or backline zerg/blob fighter. That just isn't the role you'd want a ranger to have. The same with thief.

    Frontline is warrior, guardian. Backline is ele, necro, revenant is hybrid. Rangers thieves and engi don't fight in the big open field that's just not their role..

  • kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2019

    @bigo.9037 said:
    I don't think we should expect every class to have a viable build for every game mode. So you want to have:
    Pve viability open world
    Pve raids
    Pvp conquest
    Wvw roamer/smallscale/solo
    Wvw zerg fighter...

    I mean do you realize what kinda absurd thing that is to ask for?

    And why not? There are plenty of classes with a viable build in every game mode.
    1)OPEN WORLD: Let's be honest, you can play whatever you want in open world.
    2) PVE RAIDS: Every class have viable builds for raids. Depends on your comp, really.
    3) PvP CONQUEST: Depends on the META. But i think we can agree that every class had ATLEAST 1, 2 or 3 meta builds in the past 6 years.
    4) WvW ROAMING: Some classes are more effective than others, but with the release of warclaw, you can roam with whatever you want, really. I personally did interesting outnumbered stuff even on my necro. It's not difficult to be effective with the right build.
    5) WvW ZERG/GvG: All classes have atleast a good build except Rangers. Engi have a pretty meta scrapper build right now. Even thieves have a viable gvg build with staff and vault. Right now Chrono got nerfed so hard that is maybe not worth it, but the class had a really good meta boonshare build. Ranger is the ONLY class that NEVER had a good zerg or gvg build. Maybe only druid became closer to that in post HoT release.

    There is nothing absurd at playing all game-modes with a class. It just depends on anet and their design-choices. Right now, ranger is clearly not designed for large scale fights. But one day, maybe, it will. I hope.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @kappa.2036 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    I don't think we should expect every class to have a viable build for every game mode. So you want to have:
    Pve viability open world
    Pve raids
    Pvp conquest
    Wvw roamer/smallscale/solo
    Wvw zerg fighter...

    I mean do you realize what kinda absurd thing that is to ask for?

    And why not? There are plenty of classes with a viable build in every game mode.
    1)OPEN WORLD: Let's be honest, you can play whatever you want in open world.
    2) PVE RAIDS: Every class have viable builds for raids. Depends on your comp, really.
    3) PvP CONQUEST: Depends on the META. But i think we can agree that every class had ATLEAST 1, 2 or 3 meta builds in the past 6 years.
    4) WvW ROAMING: Some classes are more effective than others, but with the release of warclaw, you can roam with whatever you want, really. I personally did interesting outnumbered stuff even on my necro. It's not difficult to be effective with the right build.
    5) WvW ZERG/GvG: All classes have atleast a good build except Rangers. Engi have a pretty meta scrapper build right now. Even thieves have a viable gvg build with staff and vault. Right now Chrono got nerfed so hard that is maybe not worth it, but the class had a really good meta boonshare build. Ranger is the ONLY class that NEVER had a good zerg or gvg build. Maybe only druid became closer to that in post HoT release.

    There is nothing absurd at playing all game-modes with a class. It just depends on anet and their design-choices. Right now, ranger is clearly not designed for large scale fights. But one day, maybe, it will. I hope.

    I suppose. I just don't feel like it's in rangers role but I guess thief isn't either. But I'm not sure.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Rangers can be excellent zerg members if they can get a decent weapon set, some good buffs (celestial avatar, I am looking at you dude.) and some minor buffs like signet share or stance share. Main problem is that if you give too much support to ranger, you get an unstoppable pet. Yet it is possible to adjust it.
    Should rangers get a viable zerg build? No.
    Should druids? Hell yes.
    Soulbeasts? Ofcourse.

    Will anet give it? Don't think so. But this discussion aside, lets share build ideas. Maybe many can achieve together what one could not.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited March 28, 2019

    Forget about making druid meta in WvW, it would require a complete core specializations rework to have access to some self sustain while keeping group sustain just to be able to compete with 3 already meta specs (fb, scrapper, tempest) while still having to deal with pet. Frankly we don't need another support in WvW.

    Soulbeast can become viable in groups with easy balance fixes:

    • Bring the pvp balance on stances in wvw
    • Share 75-80% (or 100%) of stances' duration to allies
    • keep 30s CD on dolyak as it is mandatory in large scale.
    • Moa stance would need a nerf on either its duration or scale (66 to 33%)
    • Rework MH axe : at least skill 2 shouldn't be projectile, we can't reliably use its 25 target cap anyway.

    EDIT: it should be one of Anet priorities when it comes to balance. you can't expect WvWers to accept rangers if Anet doesn't provide a good way for them to be part of a group, especially if you want pvers to stick around.

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭

    "This class still don't have a viable WvW large scale build...AFTER 6 YEARS!"
    And yet it has broken builds in all other game modes and for small scale fights.

  • kappa.2036kappa.2036 Member ✭✭✭

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    "This class still don't have a viable WvW large scale build...AFTER 6 YEARS!"
    And yet it has broken builds in all other game modes and for small scale fights.

    Yeah it's so broken that is not meta in pvp comps, not meta in wvw, healing druid good in pve raids but sucks everywhere else. Broken class. :)

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    Forget about making druid meta in WvW, it would require a complete core specializations rework to have access to some self sustain while keeping group sustain just to be able to compete with 3 already meta specs (fb, scrapper, tempest) while still having to deal with pet. Frankly we don't need another support in WvW.

    Soulbeast can become viable in groups with easy balance fixes:

    • Bring the pvp balance on stances in wvw
    • Share 75-80% (or 100%) of stances' duration to allies
    • keep 30s CD on dolyak as it is mandatory in large scale.
    • Moa stance would need a nerf on either its duration or scale (66 to 33%)
    • Rework MH axe : at least skill 2 shouldn't be projectile, we can't reliably use its 25 target cap anyway.

    EDIT: it should be one of Anet priorities when it comes to balance. you can't expect WvWers to accept rangers if Anet doesn't provide a good way for them to be part of a group, especially if you want pvers to stick around.

    I agree with all of that plus:

    Druid only needs to do the condi to boon conversion (regen and protection would be my choice) like a inverse mirror for scourge.
    That would be a good start point to improve a little bit more if needed. But at least if the design is balanced it could bring the melee meta back to the game if it can cancel at some extent the impact the scourge has in the game.
    And a little nerf to the ability of the firebrand to cleanse would also help.

    Core ranger dont need to be design at zerging, however the core desings for the skills must be there. Right now ranger is completely pigeonholed in pewpew because of the constant nerfs to the skills with some AoE. Without that it will simply dont work because with one traitline and 5 skills you can not give everything what is needed withput breaking it,

    I think of soulbeast like a melee spec and i think anet has the same idea. However the traits should promote short range combat and they do not. Traits should focus in improve melee weapons and not when you stun or gain fury.

    The skills already are there, but the traits arent aligned as such people keep playing pewpew because is the easiest, Soulbeast in my opinion should only became a beast in close quarters and play almost like a core ranger when a pewpew weapon is chosen. Then the sniper sicem meme may become irrleevant. Soulbeats needs a rework in the traits to make it work, although extend the full stances to allies would be a good start.

    And the next spec, however is themed, could be focused in ranged aoe.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2019

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    Forget about making druid meta in WvW, it would require a complete core specializations rework to have access to some self sustain while keeping group sustain just to be able to compete with 3 already meta specs (fb, scrapper, tempest) while still having to deal with pet. Frankly we don't need another support in WvW.

    Soulbeast can become viable in groups with easy balance fixes:

    • Bring the pvp balance on stances in wvw
    • Share 75-80% (or 100%) of stances' duration to allies
    • keep 30s CD on dolyak as it is mandatory in large scale.
    • Moa stance would need a nerf on either its duration or scale (66 to 33%)
    • Rework MH axe : at least skill 2 shouldn't be projectile, we can't reliably use its 25 target cap anyway.

    EDIT: it should be one of Anet priorities when it comes to balance. you can't expect WvWers to accept rangers if Anet doesn't provide a good way for them to be part of a group, especially if you want pvers to stick around.

    I agree with all of that plus:

    Druid only needs to do the condi to boon conversion (regen and protection would be my choice) like a inverse mirror for scourge.
    That would be a good start point to improve a little bit more if needed. But at least if the design is balanced it could bring the melee meta back to the game if it can cancel at some extent the impact the scourge has in the game.
    And a little nerf to the ability of the firebrand to cleanse would also help.

    Druid is the embodiment of what OP stated in his first post, its mechanics are too situational and other supports are far more reliable so it would require a rework. Adding boon conversion to CA is a good idea but won't make it viable as its best utility support is spirits and you can't play them in WvW.
    FB is mirror to scourge in design but scrapper is its counter and Fb is only the 3rd at cleansing conditions so nerfing it won't change a thing for druid and certainly not promote melee meta.
    As I said forget about druid, it's too much work and you won't even have positive results because 3 other supports are miles ahead. A core rework would be welcome but it will take Anet time and the priority imo is not to give a viable spec to druid in particular but to the ranger profession and the easiest way to achieve that is Soulbeast.

    Core ranger dont need to be design at zerging, however the core desings for the skills must be there. Right now ranger is completely pigeonholed in pewpew because of the constant nerfs to the skills with some AoE. Without that it will simply dont work because with one traitline and 5 skills you can not give everything what is needed withput breaking it,
    I think of soulbeast like a melee spec and i think anet has the same idea. However the traits should promote short range combat and they do not. Traits should focus in improve melee weapons and not when you stun or gain fury.
    The skills already are there, but the traits arent aligned as such people keep playing pewpew because is the easiest, Soulbeast in my opinion should only became a beast in close quarters and play almost like a core ranger when a pewpew weapon is chosen. Then the sniper sicem meme may become irrleevant. Soulbeats needs a rework in the traits to make it work, although extend the full stances to allies would be a good start.

    And the next spec, however is themed, could be focused in ranged aoe.

    Range aoe is not the only problem, you need a spec that is either unique or the best in what it can bring to the group, have enough self sustain to survive, not have pet 100% of the time. Will the next spec offer that?
    Soulbeast has everything required as a duellist with stances, it just misses a good weapon to not be a negative contribution to the group, rest is just pure willingness to balance stances.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Large scale pvp should be completely ignored and never, ever, ever balanced around.

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