New Scrapper - what is really too strong?

Hi all,As we all know there are a lot of theards and discussion about the updated scrapper, and there are also a lot of people calling it by far too strong.I am engi main since launch and i really enjoy the power of the new scrapper - a spec which was forgotten since PoF launched.So I ask to the engi community, what do you think is really too stong? There is a lot of hate in the spvp forum, and a lot of suggestions which would turn the scrapper to a wet noodle.

IMO there are problems with bulwark and stealth gyro:Bulwark is basically a secound heal, and provides increadible amount of barrier in 1 vs X situations. In team fights this skill seems well balanced due to transfered damage from allies and negation of the providing barrier. In zerg fights (wvw) this is a skill which instant can down you if your allies standing in aoe.My suggestion would be to change the funtionality of this skill: cut the barrier by half, and give allies nearby also some barrier. And remove the damage transfer. This could change the bulwark gyro in all scenarios to a well balanced skill.Stealth gyro is really strong because you can stealth a whole team and you can burst enemies from stealth. My suggestion would be to remove the smoke field and reduce the targets from 5 to 3 which are stealthed.

Bulwark and Sneak gyro are the big offenders, IMO:

• Bulwark gyro provides a heaping ton of barrier with little to no investment on a very short cooldown. It should be distributing that barrier amongst allies, rather than stacking it all on the engi and redirecting damage to the engi.
• Sneak gyro used to have a counter: Bad AI and a very obvious target. Now it no longer has that. I would say in PvP only, its cooldown needs to be increased, and the total amount of stealth reduced by half. There are niche uses for it in PvE, so I wouldn't alter it there.

Some of the other gyros need their cooldowns tweaked, but they're not particularly problematic.

I would also say that scrapper hammer needs a damage increase, and I would like to see rocket leap split into an ammo skill with 3 leaps to make it better for comboing with fields.

I agree as well about that Bulwark Gyro change.Regarding the Sneak Gyro, i wonder. Before it made no sense entirely - it was a stealth skill that gave up your position - whereas right now it works quite nicely. It targets 5 people, stealths for a good amount of time but the stealth is pulsed, so the allies have to stay near the scrapper during the initial period to make use of it. And it also comes with the most situational skill ever, Detection Pulse, so i guess they planned to make the main skill stronger on purpose. If they were to raise the cooldown and lower the stealth duration it could easily end up not as worthwhile (i see it often compared to Mass Invisibility, but that skill targets 10 people, and while it has a cast time, the stealth is also given in a single pulse; so if the cooldown and stealth values ended up similar, Mass Invisibility would be outright better). It's just that stealth, as designed in this game, is too strong. Maybe they should scrap the idea and make the elite gyro do something else.

bulwarktake off self barrier. change self pulse barrier to aoe pulse. add 5s cd.sneakchange to 5 pulse down from 6, 2s stealth down from 3s.shocking speedmaybe add 7s cd to this. or add 2s and change from 5s of superspeed down to 4.

that's it.

@"Manuhell.2759" said:I agree as well about that Bulwark Gyro change.Regarding the Sneak Gyro, i wonder. Before it made no sense entirely - it was a stealth skill that gave up your position - whereas right now it works quite nicely. It targets 5 people, stealths for a good amount of time but the stealth is pulsed, so the allies have to stay near the scrapper during the initial period to make use of it. And it also comes with the most situational skill ever, Detection Pulse, so i guess they planned to make the main skill stronger on purpose. If they were to raise the cooldown and lower the stealth duration it could easily end up not as worthwhile (i see it often compared to Mass Invisibility, but that skill targets 10 people, and while it has a cast time, the stealth is also given in a single pulse; so if the cooldown and stealth values ended up similar, Mass Invisibility would be outright better). It's just that stealth, as designed in this game, is too strong. Maybe they should scrap the idea and make the elite gyro do something else.

The difficulty is that scrapper is almost entirely designed as a tank/support, and stealth is extremely potent as a defensive boost. This means that even if a scrapper somehow gets in a bad spot in a 1vX scenario, it could theoretically reset the whole thing with stealth gyro. And if it's being played as a support, stealth is incredibly powerful for rezzing and healing, because the enemy won't be able to focus you nearly as easily.

This is why ArenaNet largely centered stealth around offense and disengage. The classes with the greatest access to stealth (thief, mesmer, engi) usually use it to spike targets or run away. But when it's in the context of a tank or a support, it's ridiculously unfun to fight.

This is why raising the cooldown and reducing total stealth provided is the ideal solution, because it still allows for aggressive play and disengage, but not so much that a tank or healer can completely reset fights without giving up a very powerful tool.

For context, Renewed Focus, a guardian invuln elite skill, allows guardians to mostly reset the fight, and it's on a 105 second cooldown in PvP, more than double sneak gyro's cooldown.

I'm pretty sure you nailed it there. I look at it from a WvW perspective, and the Bulwark Gyro's rework sounded like bad design from the get go. It went from being an O.K. skill to use everywhere to an incredibly powerful 1v1 skill and an incredibly terrible zerg skill. Bulwark is now only balanced in small vs. small skirmishes.

@"Vagrant.7206" said:

The difficulty is that scrapper is almost entirely designed as a tank/support, and stealth is extremely potent as a defensive boost. This means that even if a scrapper somehow gets in a bad spot in a 1vX scenario, it could theoretically reset the whole thing with stealth gyro. And if it's being played as a support, stealth is incredibly powerful for rezzing and healing, because the enemy won't be able to focus you nearly as easily.

This is why ArenaNet largely centered stealth around offense and disengage. The classes with the greatest access to stealth (thief, mesmer, engi) usually use it to spike targets or run away. But when it's in the context of a tank or a support, it's ridiculously unfun to fight.

This is why raising the cooldown and reducing total stealth provided is the ideal solution, because it still allows for aggressive play and disengage, but not so much that a tank or healer can completely reset fights without giving up a very powerful tool.

It may be good for support in PvP, but in WvW it doesn't help much in that regard. You're still getting pummeled if you try to ress someone (assuming the downed doesn't get killed via mount) and given the range of the other gyro and the medical dispersion field, you still have to stay near other people to do your work (and those people will end up revealed and targetable since they'll be doing damage).Being an elite, as far as support goes, it also competes with Supply Crate due to the Med Pack Drop toolbelt (and i already consider this one to be better). Also, they're going to remove the stealth on mounts, so you're still becoming visible if you try to flee. And conversely, given that the mount shall get a dismount skill, it means you won't be able to attack while stealthed if you want to dismount other people.If it is only meant as a tool to escape fights, well, i'm not too fond of those. Given that it has already got an extremely situational toolbelt, if even the main skill gets an high cooldown and a low duration, i see no reason for it to exist. We would end up with an elite skill easily worse than a normal toolbelt - that is, throw elixir S (and that even comes with an invulnerability skill as the main one, and is affected by several traits).

I still think the best way would be to replace the Sneak Gyro entirely. Still, we'll see what they plan to do.

For context, Renewed Focus, a guardian invuln elite skill, allows guardians to mostly reset the fight, and it's on a 105 second cooldown in PvP, more than double sneak gyro's cooldown.

It's an invincibility that also recharges all the virtues, though. In terms of functions, it does quite more than the sneak gyro. If we had an elite that recharged our toolbelt, i too would expect some really high cooldown.

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I'm pretty sure you nailed it there. I look at it from a WvW perspective, and the Bulwark Gyro's rework sounded like bad design from the get go. It went from being an O.K. skill to use everywhere to an incredibly powerful 1v1 skill and an incredibly terrible zerg skill. Bulwark is now only balanced in small vs. small skirmishes.Except from a WvW perspective... all it does is make the scrapper more competetive with other "strong" 1v1 duelists, such as spellbreaker, holo, mirage, daredevil etc.

That's not something wrong.

If you say that the bulwark is balanced in small skirmishes, I'd say its very right and exactly how WvW should be balanced.

It's not like the above still cant kill them 1v1 either - when I engage the new scrapper on my sustain mirage, they either cant kill me on their bunker build and eventually end up sneak gyroing away or I can still kill them because they went too much offense on an easily kited power hammer build. I still havent met any rifle scrapper - probably because the rifle is also meh in WvW. I havent met any p/p scrapper either. I have no idea why since I consider them superior to both hammer and rifle bunkers. But I guess people dont like the wonky blowtorch any more than I do as it nearly drives me to insanity every evening.

In fact, I'd say they are now at their strongest in smallscale comped groups carried by firebrands and supported by some dps spellbreaker/scourge/ele/holo. Which goes against your idea of them being "balanced" in small skirmishes, hm.

The only "problem" with the scrapper IMO is that the sneak gyro simply last too long. Fairly simple to balance - reduce the duration. No need to overthink it.

The big problem with the huge criticism about the Sneak Gyro is: Shadow Refuge exists since launch. It is not our fault that most thieves do not share stealth.

The barrier from Bulwark looks to me like a small "sorry" for the nerf of SRD not so long ago. It was mostly done to balance the Holosmith, but nerfed the three of us.

However the complaints will not stop, so a nef/balance is inevitable. If they would make Sneak Gyro a 1:1 copy of Shadow Refuge, with the channeling phase to be on a fixed location, it would be acceptable. Bulwark could even change to its pre-patch state, it was already viable back then. I don't know what they will do, but I will enjoy the days/hours the skills still work as they do now.

Do you remember Elixir U? The throw version lasted from July 2018 till December 2018. Five months. For a skill not many people ever complained about. If the gyros remain untouched after the 26th march patch, I would call it a miracle.

@"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:The big problem with the huge criticism about the Sneak Gyro is: Shadow Refuge exists since launch. It is not our fault that most thieves do not share stealth.

The barrier from Bulwark looks to me like a small "sorry" for the nerf of SRD not so long ago. It was mostly done to balance the Holosmith, but nerfed the three of us.

However the complaints will not stop, so a nef/balance is inevitable. If they would make Sneak Gyro a 1:1 copy of Shadow Refuge, with the channeling phase to be on a fixed location, it would be acceptable. Bulwark could even change to its pre-patch state, it was already viable back then. I don't know what they will do, but I will enjoy the days/hours the skills still work as they do now.

Do you remember Elixir U? The throw version lasted from July 2018 till December 2018. Five months. For a skill not many people ever complained about. If the gyros remain untouched after the 26th march patch, I would call it a miracle.

Sneak Gyro is not ok in its current state because of Shadow Refuge's existence, Sneak Gyro is a whole new level of unhealthy stealth duration on the move. Even saying this, it's not even the best idea to bring Sneak Gyro. It'll get changed because 18-21s of stealth is unhealthy, un-fun, and unnecessary for the Scrapper or for others to deal with.

It's not fair to attribute future balance changes PURELY to complainers, as that's implying that those complaints are from a lack of understanding or knee jerk reactions, rather than having any merit as an objectively good changes for game balance. Several Mesmers on the PvP forum are especially 100% guilty of this, one even to go so far as to say that balance changes are completely decided by complaints, and not at all decided by the balance of the game.

I expect Sneak Gyro to have a slashed duration in PvP, probably like 50%, and I'm totally cool with that, it's for the best, and won't really affect its viability because it was so excessively long a stealth.

Bulwark Gyro I don't know what they'll do with it, it's too good when you're not shielding allies, and feels awful when you're shielding allies. I expect something to remedy this problem.

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:The big problem with the huge criticism about the Sneak Gyro is: Shadow Refuge exists since launch. It is not our fault that most thieves do not share stealth.

The barrier from Bulwark looks to me like a small "sorry" for the nerf of SRD not so long ago. It was mostly done to balance the Holosmith, but nerfed the three of us.

However the complaints will not stop, so a nef/balance is inevitable. If they would make Sneak Gyro a 1:1 copy of Shadow Refuge, with the channeling phase to be on a fixed location, it would be acceptable. Bulwark could even change to its pre-patch state, it was already viable back then. I don't know what they will do, but I will enjoy the days/hours the skills still work as they do now.

Do you remember Elixir U? The throw version lasted from July 2018 till December 2018. Five months. For a skill not many people ever complained about. If the gyros remain untouched after the 26th march patch, I would call it a miracle.

That's just how stealth is, though.And being an elite skill, its effect has to be reasonabily powerful. Given that the only things this elite does is giving stealth at a small amount of people, the only thing it can excel at is the stealth uptime.

It's not fair to attribute future balance changes PURELY to complainers, as that's implying that those complaints are from a lack of understanding or knee jerk reactions, rather than having any merit as an objectively good changes for game balance. Several Mesmers on the PvP forum are especially 100% guilty of this, one even to go so far as to say that balance changes are completely decided by complaints, and not at all decided by the balance of the game.

Yep, it's not like knee jerk reactions already impacted us in the past, right? Like a certain class of utilities that was supposed to protect and defend an area by design, and was made useless at that due to all the complainers (i remember the threads of that time, not even reworks to make them more active were fine, people just wanted them gone).And then we spent years using them as blasting devices instead of turrets, and that's still where they are. Only Healing Turret gets some use...and not as a turret.

I expect Sneak Gyro to have a slashed duration in PvP, probably like 50%, and I'm totally cool with that, it's for the best, and won't really affect its viability because it was so excessively long a stealth.

And then you end up with an elite comparable or barely better than Toss Elixir S (that works in a single pulse and whose cooldowns can be lowered and duration improved via traits, unlike the gyro). And without the invulnerability skill that comes with it.I've said it before and i'll repeat it: just change the whole skill in something that has nothing to do with stealth and be done, instead of making it a weak elite with an extremely situational toolbelt. Because that's where it will end up.

Yeah remove bulwark self barrier and make it a forgotten gyro again,good stuff. The bulwark does what it’s supposed to do making scrapper sustain high with its moderate dps,sneak gyro on the other hand is excessive,12 seconds on same CD would have been more than adequate.

@Chaith.8256 said:Sneak Gyro is not ok in its current state because of Shadow Refuge's existence, Sneak Gyro is a whole new level of unhealthy stealth duration on the move. Even saying this, it's not even the best idea to bring Sneak Gyro. It'll get changed because 18-21s of stealth is unhealthy, un-fun, and unnecessary for the Scrapper or for others to deal with.

A strong Scrapper with useful abilities, that is unheard-of XD. All of these suggestions go into the same way. I can even understand the frustration of you and the others. Before the patch, when a Scrapper used stealth you always knew where he was. There was always a giant target-able object floating over our heads. So it was basically fake-stealth. Now it works as it should and we are 100 % invisible. That is terrible. In PvE the old Sneak Gyro was sort of acceptable, only a few mobs ever recognized the Gyro anyway, but in competitive this change is a serious problem.

Stealth is un-fun in general. Getting beaten up by an enemy you cannot see coming is absolutely un-fun. But surprisingly stealth is a thing in most MMORPGs. ( @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 has written a quite interesting text about this problem in the Thieves class forum a couple of days ago)

We could also start a discussion about stealth in general and have the thieves and their victims to contribute their experiences and suggestions as well.

Thieves are allowed to be stealthy, Rangers, Mesmers too but a Scrapper? Core engineer can use stealth as well. The old combo still works ^^.

Reduce the pulses, slightly increase cd since it synergizes well with the dodge trait to reduce elite recharge. A scrapper on its own can still be killed, it's just an annoyance and not worth fighting if there are more than one. I don't generally have a problem with them, just like most troublesome builds, a lot of the people who play them are predictable.

My main complaint is with sneak gyro. Not having it be target able/destroy able anymore removes counter play options.

The barrier seems a bit too much, the scrapper seems to have it up pretty much non-stop now.

@HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:The big problem with the huge criticism about the Sneak Gyro is: Shadow Refuge exists since launch. It is not our fault that most thieves do not share stealth.

Shadow Refuge and the pre-patch Sneak Gyro are really not comparable, as all the drawbacks of SR aren't present on the SG.

If you move out of Shadow Refuge, you lose the stealth entirely. It's also a Dark Field so you can't stack more stealth or hide more people by blasting it, and lastly: It doesn't follow you around, and the field is clearly visible to you and the enemy, so you can EASILY guess where the Thief is hiding. Not as obvious with the Sneak Gyro.

It also had a 60-second cooldown, compared to Sneak Gyro's 45-seconds, and we are comparing an Elite to a regular Utility skill.

Even the current Sneak Gyro is way better than Shadow Refuge will ever be, because it's not like Engineer is lacking in blasts and leaps to stack stealth more than what Sneak Gyro provides by itself.

It makes sense for Thieves to have easy stealth access. Sneeze at a thief and their brittle bones shatter not by the force from the sneeze itself but by there mere suggestion of one coming in their direction. Engineers are NOT brittle, and Scrapper especially, even less so.

... That said I am really loving my Scrapper right now so plznomorenerfsthestealthgyroisfinerightnowmmm'kaythx.

@"GUFF.5692" said:My main complaint is with sneak gyro. Not having it be target able/destroy able anymore removes counter play options.

Can't you say that with literally a lot of other stealth skills? Mass invis? Even thief stealth? Elixir stealth? If you can SEE the gyro, then it's not really stealth now, is it?

At the end of the day, Sneak Gyro is an elite skill. It should be comparable to other elites. The reduction by 1/2 basically means it's about as good as a utility slot stealth with the need to blast stealth to make it worth it. The problem people had in WvW was really moreso that people really refused to counter it. There are numerous anti-stealth mechanisms now but it is FAR easier to go on the forums and QQ about how an elite is actually useful. It needed some tweaking, but the 50% reduction feels like another classic anet knee-jerk nerf like "oh! Sorry! Didn't mean to make some of you uncomfortable!"

tl;dr: Again, sneak gyro is an elite. The old one was worthless because it is, by definition, not stealth if the players can see where the player is with a floating targetable icon showing where they are. The new one made the elite actually worth taking in general pvp/wvw play (I used to only use it when running from point A to point B. It was worthless in 1v1 unless you were fighting someone remarkably dumb or slow). People will still take it when they can coordinate blast fields for group play, but for an elite, halving the stealth duration just makes it marginally ok. (Most 1v1 classes have enough mobility to move that duration of stealth to catch up)

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:The big problem with the huge criticism about the Sneak Gyro is: Shadow Refuge exists since launch. It is not our fault that most thieves do not share stealth.

Talk about bias. You forgot to mention that pre-rework sneak gyro can fall so far behind the player and partymates. Prepatch sneak gyro didn't have a field at all. Also, it is visible and targetable by enemies.

Both SR and SG have their own drawbacks don't act like sneak gyro was the godsent elite when talking about pre patch stuff.

Also, what's your point in bringing up durability of scrapper?It would be fair then to bring up scrapper has so weak offense then, compared to thief specializations, even more so.

@aceofbass.2163 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:The big problem with the huge criticism about the Sneak Gyro is: Shadow Refuge exists since launch. It is not our fault that most thieves do not share stealth.

Let us settle down. You are stepping into the conversation as if I insulted your mother. I am not asking for further nerfs to the current Sneak Gyro, I like where it's at.

The reason SR isn't as good as Sneak Gyro is because Thieves already have a plethora of other ways to access stealth, but that still doesn't make the two skills comparable in terms of stealth-uptime effectiveness, which I got the impression the original post was trying to portray them as.

You forgot to mention that pre-rework sneak gyro can fall so far behind the player and partymates. Prepatch sneak gyro didn't have a field at all. Also, it is visible and targetable by enemies.

Why would I talk about pre-rework Sneak Gyro? It's not in any way relevant to the current Sneak Gyro.

Both SR and SG have their own drawbacks don't act like sneak gyro was the godsent elite when talking about pre patch stuff.

Calling it how I see it. And the current SG is pretty damn good, even after the 1.5s adjustment. The other elites are still good mind you, but SG just became OH so good (along with all the other Gyro's, which is wonderful).

Also, what's your point in bringing up durability of scrapper? It would be fair then to bring up scrapper has so weak offense then, compared to thief specializations, even more so.

Scrappers have respectable damage. Disrespecting that is likely to get you killed. Their damage is however not overblown like other classes, it's in a decent spot. To make up for a lacking offense, Scrapper leans HEAVILY into Defense. Barriers, Healing, Water Fields + Plenty of Blast/Leap Finishers, defense-favoring traits, etc etc... It has everything it needs to sustain a prolonged fight and WIN one. Having a 40% free uptime on Stealth for up to 5 people was unnecessary. I think the 1.5s adjustment sorted that.

Thieves only defense is their stealth and dodges, and have to run incredibly glassy setups to even make a dent something like a Scrapper or Warrior. Thieves don't even try for sustained fights. They can't, they don't have the traits, setups or utilities for it, so most thieves rely on ganking the glassiest opponents they can find in the shortest possible time-frame. Scrapper is a pretty good counter to most thieves because of this. You don't need a lot of damage to down a thief, you just need to be able to survive the initial burst and catch one afterwards, which can be an exercise in frustration for many considering Deadeye's cancerous perma-stealth shenanigans. Occasionally you come across one of them rumored "Godlike" thieves who can hold their own for prolonged fights, but they are not the norm for good reason... Playing Thief like that is frickin' HARD. Not to mention how in PvP thieves are discouraged and in the worst cases downright flamed if they play like that. They are supposed to +1 and decap. Sustained fights is a waste of time.

So yeah, loving my Scrapper atm, haven't in years.

@Handin.4032 said:

At the end of the day, Sneak Gyro is an elite skill. It should be comparable to other elites.

So, it should be comparable to say mass invisibility. 1.75 sec cast - 5 secs total stealth for up to 10 targets with a HUGE tell when it's cast. 90 sec CD, can be reduced to 72 secs. Not a combo field, but HUGE radius at 1200.

Just comparing the only 2 elite mass stealth skills you can see why SG is either overtuned, or MI needs to be seriously buffed. And, as someone who almost exclusively plays mesmer in WvW, I don't think we need any more buffs.

@Handin.4032 said:

@"GUFF.5692" said:My main complaint is with sneak gyro. Not having it be target able/destroy able anymore removes counter play options.

The risk/reward ratio for stealth in this game is not even remotely balanced with respect to pvp. This is one of the reasons GW2 pvp is not taken seriously by the competitive gaming community.

The recent changes to sneak gyro were definitely better than nothing but more must be done especially to the stealth mechanic as a whole. Currently the rewards greatly out weight the risks with regards to stealth.

I found it odd scrapper had one of the best stealth abilities and reveals. Imho every anti stealth skill from every profession should function like Scrapper's Detection Pulse (remove stealth from an AOE radius). That would be another step in the right direction.

@GUFF.5692 said:

@Handin.4032 said:

@GUFF.5692 said:My main complaint is with sneak gyro. Not having it be target able/destroy able anymore removes counter play options.

I do agree the nerf to stealth was needed: the 50% seems though more knee jerk rather than starting with 25% and fine tuning.

The reveal mechanic is actually fairly bad since it can be blocked, evaded and a fairly small radius (1200 is pretty small given mobility in the game with stealth).

@Ubi.4136 said:

@Handin.4032 said:

At the end of the day, Sneak Gyro is an

elite

skill. It should be comparable to other elites.

@Ubi.4136 said:So, it should be comparable to say mass invisibility. 1.75 sec cast - 5 secs total stealth for up to 10 targets with a HUGE tell when it's cast. 90 sec CD, can be reduced to 72 secs. Not a combo field, but HUGE radius at 1200.

Just comparing the only 2 elite mass stealth skills you can see why SG is either overtuned, or MI needs to be seriously buffed. And, as someone who almost exclusively plays mesmer in WvW, I don't think we need any more buffs.

MI could actually use a buff. Particularly that casting time needs to come down. Other skills that have a casting time comparable to this are instant resses and massive AoE skills on ele like Churning Earth. MI's usefulness doesn't come anywhere near these skills. It's especially weird on a class like Mesmer that has faster casting times baked into the design of the class.