I cant help but feel Soulcleave is what Ventari Tablet should have been

Looking at Soulcleave elite for Renegade legend, I cant help but feel that this is what Ventari Tablet should have done. Done some kind of AoE Lifesteal on attack buff to nearby allies to the tablet. Would be far more consistent and assessable healing across more modes of gameplay.Also would be a lot less clunky than Natural Harmony. Which would make room for more useful skills on the tablet.

...Cope...

Lifesteal on Ventari doesn't make sense thematically. Passive effects should be discouraged in general IMO. Most of the fun/challenge in playing Ventari is that you actually have to aim your heals and predict player movement. To me that's more interesting/engaging than mindlessly spamming PBAoE/Cone heals around you.

@WraithOfStealth.1624 said:Lifesteal on Ventari doesn't make sense thematically.

Screw theme. This idea is fantastic.

Give Ventari Soulcleave Summit. Period.

That will free up Kalla to pursue a better class identity, since Renegade needs a rework. More importantly, this will give Ventari a proper offensive usage so that 1/4th of our base legends isn't totally useless outside niche heal builds.

I agree with @WraithOfStealth.1624, lifesteal does not belong in Ventari. Not only that, but give more functionality and useability to Soulcleave's Summit and people will see how insanely broken of a skill it is. It adds absurd group damage and healing for no investment because of it having no ICD. It being immobile, killable, and CC-able keeps it in check. It is a skill I don't want to see made much more usable because of how badly balanced it is. If ANet does something cool like legend-weaving or something in the future, sure, lifesteal can fit for a Ventari-Shiro combination, but not for Ventari on its own, and not at the level Soulcleave's Summit is at.

Rather than changing Natural Harmony on such a fundamental level, I'd rather the devs focus on making the legend more reactive and less predictive.

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:That will free up Kalla to pursue a better class identity, since Renegade needs a rework. More importantly, this will give Ventari a proper offensive usage so that 1/4th of our base legends isn't totally useless outside niche heal builds.

Every class has "niche" builds, with weapons/traits/skills that are used far less than Ventari for sure. With Ventari being a legend used in both raids/wvw/fractals (According to metabattle, i don't keep track of pve myself.) i'd say it's a bit more than niche.

Mabey theme doesn't matter to you, but i assume it does for the developers. Probably why Shiro has assassin skills, Mallyx has demonic skills etc. Ventari is a pacifist centaur, it would be ridiculous for the base legend to have offensive capabilities other than hard/soft CC. Now if the legend were corrupted/changed by an elite spec that'd be another thing and i would be more open to it.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:It adds absurd group damage and healing for no investment because of it having no ICD. It being immobile, killable, and CC-able keeps it in check. It is a skill I don't want to see made much more usable because of how badly balanced it is.

Can agree with that.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:If ANet does something cool like legend-weaving or something in the future, sure, lifesteal can fit for a Ventari-Shiro combination, but not for Ventari on its own, and not at the level Soulcleave's Summit is at.

I would be on board if it was an elite spec that changed/corrupted Ventari or legends in general. Combining Ventari with Shiro or Mallyx would both result in something shadowpriest-like i assume. It can have some offense at that point.

@WraithOfStealth.1624 said:

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:That will free up Kalla to pursue a better class identity, since Renegade needs a rework.

More importantly, this will give Ventari a proper offensive usage so that 1/4th of our base legends isn't totally useless outside niche heal builds.

Ventari is 1/4th of our base class. It's not "just" a niche build. It's bad design. People have been complaining about Ventar since release.

Ideally, every revenant legend should be useful in multiple builds. Jalis is used for bunkering and power, shiro is used for power and condi, glint is used for support and power, mallyx is used for condi and (historically) power, and Kalla is used for healing, condi, and sometimes power.

Only Ventari is useless outside healing.

Pacifism is a stupid, stupid theme and it is so flawed that it is flawed in its earliest concepts.

Mabey theme doesn't matter to you, but i assume it does for the developers. Probably why Shiro has assassin skills, Mallyx has demonic skills etc. Ventari is a pacifist centaur, it would be ridiculous for the base legend to have offensive capabilities other than hard/soft CC. Now if the legend were corrupted/changed by an elite spec that'd be another thing and i would be more open to it.

Well think of it this way. Ventari can grant allies Alacrity, which buffs dps output. There for, there is no reason why it shouldn't be able to grant other buffs as well, namely Soulcleave Summit, which actually has a role in healing allies.

Ventari doesn't need lifestyle, it doesn't fit its theme. This legend is as non-offensive as possible and that's what makes it special.

@DonArkanio.6419 said:Ventari doesn't need lifestyle, it doesn't fit its theme. This legend is as non-offensive as possible and that's what makes it special.

Yes it does. Lifesteal is just a game mechanic. Its roleplay aspect is healing allies when they attack. Staff, which originally was supposed to be Ventari's weapon of choice, has all sorts of attacks as well as the Auto attack spawning healing orbs, which pretty much the same exact thing as lifesteal but with a worst game mechanic to do it.

You attack--> trigger orb to spawn -->spawn orb---> healed

Lifesteal does the exact same thing as the Staff does above, but with much better game mechanics. You cant get heals by the auto attack if it's not attacking somebody.

So again it fits the theme perfectly. Honestly Staff aka Ventari's weapon is more attack than it is healing and support... Ventari was a warrior after all...

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:Ventari doesn't need lifestyle, it doesn't fit its theme. This legend is as non-offensive as possible and that's what makes it special.

For me lifestyle doesn't fit Ventari. That's all. I like it the way this legend currently is. Only thing that ANet might consider updating is Salvation traitline. ther than that, I see no point in giving Ventari more than it needs.

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:Ventari doesn't need lifestyle, it doesn't fit its theme. This legend is as non-offensive as possible and that's what makes it special.

Well for me I completely disagree and Lifesteal fits Ventari fine and legend isnt fine the way it is. Salvation is bad just like Ventari is in general. You cant even use Ventari in SPvP at all. It's that bad.

Lifesteal absolutely does not fit ventari. The pretty much pacifist legendary centaur absolutely did not preach “heal yourself by stealing other’s lifeforce.”

What's wrong with Ventari? It just needs a competent user to shine. Or what I mean is that it takes some work to use it. If you find it difficult to drive, then I'd say all you need is a little practice. It's not hard to heal both through Natural Harmony and from sending the tablet through someone, even if they are moving. The burst healing is fantastic on Ventari. You get used to pathing and timing it if you play with it for a while. To be fair, perhaps they could lower the CD on moving the tablet ever so slightly or get rid of the CD entirely as it costs energy to move it anyways, but I honestly don't see what's so wrong with it as it is now. And hey, you can trait it to give Regeneration with Nourishing Roots, as well as pop on Herald to improve Regeneration potency from Elder's Respite if you want to have that AoE passive healing going on. Last I checked, Dwayna Runes stacked with the trait for even more potent Regeneration. Perhaps not the most optimal active healing Rune set, but it's nevertheless an option and not awful. Monk Runes just happen to increase the overall healing potency so it's hard to compete with them.

PS: I wouldn't say the healing orbs on Rejuvenating Assault is the same as Lifesteal. Lifestealing deals additional damage to the target by literally stealing the life to heal yourself with. The orbs are simply spawned to give you little packets of healing in the close vicinity of the Revenant. There's no added damage from them.

@Absconditus.6804 said:What's wrong with Ventari?

Numbers too low without healing power, so it's useless outside those builds.

Does not provide enough support in general outside raw healing.

No buffs besides Alacrity. (And that's gated behind the Salvation traitline, which you do not use outside healing builds.)

Bad synergy with Alacrity., so its own buff is bad.

Shitty radius.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:Lifesteal absolutely does not fit ventari. The pretty much pacifist legendary centaur absolutely did not preach “heal yourself by stealing other’s lifeforce.”

Ventari was a warrior. He promoted peace, but even Dr Martin Luther King jr promoted peace yet he was known to stack guns. Ventari's staff is mostly non heal skills. And his auto attack heals on attack just like Lifesteal but with a poorer execution game mechanic wise.

@Absconditus.6804 said:it's hard to compete with them.

PS: I wouldn't say the healing orbs on Rejuvenating Assault is the same as Lifesteal. Lifestealing deals additional damage to the target by literally stealing the life to heal yourself with. The orbs are simply spawned to give you little packets of healing in the close vicinity of the Revenant. There's no added damage from them.

Lifesteal: attack= deal 1 damage to enemy, restore 1 hp (numbers made up)

Staff Auto: Attack= deal 1 damage to enemy, spawn orb healing 1.(Numbers made up)

Again same exact thing just with a worst game mechanic execution.

The only difficulty tablet has is the short radius and how a player need to predict where heals have to go, but by reading looks it is wayyy to hard for most pkayers... maybe anet need to carry players that want to be carried with ventari????

Ventari only needs some smal to minimal QoL changes.

@Aeolus.3615 said:The only difficulty tablet has is the short radius and how a player need to predict where heals have to go, but by reading looks it is wayyy to hard for most pkayers... maybe anet need to carry players that want to be carried with ventari????

Ventari only needs some smal to minimal QoL changes.

And this, folks, is why tablet is still the way it is.

When people are content with mediocrity...

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:The only difficulty tablet has is the short radius and how a player need to predict where heals have to go, but by reading looks it is wayyy to hard for most pkayers... maybe anet need to carry players that want to be carried with ventari????

Ventari only needs some smal to minimal QoL changes.

Exactly

I am still a heavy advocate for a fundamental change in salvation and only slight changes to ventari.

The only ventari changes needed is to remove the tablet sacrifice after the elite and a stunbreak.Only teleport it back to the revenant after the elite and give the elite a proper CDand a static energy cost.Sure will widdle down the CC uptime but will increase QoL of ventari players and will give the tablet more versatility.The stunbreak on the cleanse skill should be fitting and also adjusting its cost and CD to a reasonable level.

Things to improve in salvation:

1. Rework the Minors. I mean common a skill that augments a legend in its Minors screams: I am useless in any other fashion or playstyles. Thus change them to more general effects that also benefit sustainish playstyles regardless of gear and skill choice.I. E gain energy when applying heals (this would also work with shiro and jalis very well) or cleanse conditions in an area when dodge rolling (already exists but is still nice) etc.
2. Merge several heal increase effects. Maybe a major and a minor. The minor effecting all sources of healing on all targets (including you) and the major one increase outgoing healing big time on allies.
3. Give the line an option to meaningfully change ventari as a legend.

I. E one line that is fully committed to ventari.

Adept:Serene Rejuvination: Ventaries tablet grants regen to allies.

Master:Natural abundance: When you disable a foe summon a tablet fragment. Natural Harmony grants alacrity to allies.

Nurishing roots: Ventaries Tablet is now bound to your presence. When channeling Protective Solace your tablet takes roots and is immovable. It's area of effect doubles and affects more allies. (new target cap at 10).

These changes totally change the playstyles of ventari and one of the traits also gives bonuses outside the centaur legend.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:Lifesteal absolutely does not fit ventari. The pretty much pacifist legendary centaur absolutely did not preach “heal yourself by stealing other’s lifeforce.”

I mean there’s a difference between the archetypal monk who beats his enemies with a bamboo stick and a mage who sucks the literal life force out of people. Ventari having life steal just doesn’t fit the lore or theme.

Currently the only classes that have access to lifesteal are Shiro/Kalla & Devastation Revenant, Necromancer, and 1 Thief venom. If that doesn’t tell you something about how they want lifesteal themed and what type of magic needs to be accessed to utilize it, I dunno what will. Ventari is very clearly not that type of magic

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_stealing

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:I mean there’s a difference between the archetypal monk who beats his enemies with a bamboo stick and a mage who sucks the literal life force out of people. Ventari having life steal just doesn’t fit the lore or theme.

And yet, Kalla is supposed to be this inspiring feminist figure with lots of fire and explosions, yet she has the literal strongest lifesteal in the game.

I dunno what will. Ventari is very clearly not that type of magic

But Revenant as a whole is.

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:I mean there’s a difference between the archetypal monk who beats his enemies with a bamboo stick and a mage who sucks the literal life force out of people. Ventari having life steal just doesn’t fit the lore or theme.

Kalla’s summons are all based on her warband and their powers from their revolution days; echoes of their previous selves. Razorclaw does bleed, icerazor shoots ice blasts (that for balancing reasons has cripple instead of chill), soulcleave does lifesteal etc. I wouldn’t say it’s really Kalla doing the lifesteal, but her lieutenant instead. Going back to the whole “previous selves” thing, the mist echoes for each warband member would obviously correspond to their “real life” professions etc. so it would make sense that say, icerazor was an elementalist and Soulcleave was a Necromancer, which as shown previously is the only class that deals heavily with lifesteal magic (besides maybe ritualist). It’s not out of place for Soulcleave and only Soulcleave to have that sort of ability in Kalla’s skill lineup given that, from what we know, she likely utilized that kind of magic already.

I dunno what will. Ventari is very clearly not that type of magic

Revenant only has access to its core mist magic and then the powers that its legends give it. The only lifesteal that Revenant has access to is in Shiro, Kalla (through her lieutenant) and Devastation (Which is very closely linked with Shiro and his energy, Assassin’s Annihilation anyone?). And just to backup Devastation further, sure it can be claimed that it’s a “core” part of Revenant, which it is, but all the traitlines are very much aligned and associated with the specific energies of their specific legends. I wouldn’t say that Revenant directly has access to that type of energy, but is only given it through legends and energies that have been in contact with it in the past. There is a reason why none of the other legends, traitlines, or (more importantly) weapon skills have zero access to lifesteal

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:The only difficulty tablet has is the short radius and how a player need to predict where heals have to go, but by reading looks it is wayyy to hard for most pkayers... maybe anet need to carry players that want to be carried with ventari????

Ventari only needs some smal to minimal QoL changes.

Because I don’t need to get carried like most of u, so mediocrity works fine even in pvp gamemodes, tablet needs only QoL at max, if u don’t like or it’s to hard don’t ask for nonsense buffs/changes.

Vampiric damage doesn’t fit ventar also.

Note: soundcleave has u describe m8 be cool on some elite with daggers..

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@"Absconditus.6804" said:What's wrong with Ventari?

It's not my intention to be rude here, and I can understand why people aren't used to using it. It's also perfectly fine if people disagree and continue to think it's bad. We are often drawn to damage builds and look to purely optimize that. So it's easy to look at the Ventari set and finding it to be rubbish, it has no deeps! Or maybe it's just too difficult for a lot of people to drive the tablet efficiently. I certainly think it could do with some QoL updates here and there, but overall I don't think Ventari is bad at all. And before someone puts the words into my mouth, obviously I'm not saying you should bring it to your Raid group if you are meant to be DPS. You can swap it in for certain sections to block projectiles and such though.